lobbying campaign, roger stone was convicted of lying to congress. trump pardoned him, too, and there is former trump attorney michael cohen confined nearly three years after admitting several crimes, including campaign finance violations, routinely called for accountability for his former boss. everyone needs to be held to the same standard of the law, and that includes former presidents. none of this proves donald trump committed any crimes before, during or after his presidency. but it does give his critics a lot to say about the company. he keeps john. yes it does. tom foreman thank you very much. and on that note the cnn primetime special inside the trump investigations. starts right now. tonight former president trump in legal jeopardy charges are inevitable , potentially imminent indictment in new york following

the facts where they go over hush money payments to adult film star stormy daniels even under campaign finance. if it was, it's not even a violation tensions mounting to god that it doesn't turn violent. trump calls for his supporters to protest. let's see if they arrest him. it is going to cause mayhem question on everyone's mind. will charges come, everyone needs to be helped to the same standard of the law, and that includes former president trump mounts his third white house run. other probes are closing in, looked for a crime to fit the person investigations into classified documents declassified just by saying it's declassified january 6th never take back our country with weakness, election interference in georgia one georgia just so you understand. how will these probes impact his political future? building a lot of sympathy for the former president, cnn primetime inside the trump investigations. starts

now. and you're looking at live pictures of the manhattan courthouse that could be buzzing with activity as soon as tomorrow. good evening. i'm pamela brown. and tonight we are taking a deep dive into the major investigations into former president donald trump the hush money case involving stormy daniels, the county grand jury case in georgia, and the department of justice is special counsel. we will have new information on the special counsel investigation this hour , but we begin in manhattan, where trump could be indicted when the new york grand jury is expected to reconvene in the morning. while there are hints that an indictment is looming, the reality is no one really knows what's going to happen. not even the 45th president himself. he predicted over the weekend he would be arrested today. that did not happen. the

special panel of 23 jurors investigating a 2016 hush money payment to stormy daniels has been meeting in the downtown manhattan for months, so if an indictment comes, it could happen as soon as tomorrow. with this investigation, appearing to be near a conclusion, this whole saga has ignited another political firestorm with republican allies in the house trying to shield trump for making history as the first former u. s president to be criminally charged. they're launching an investigation into manhattan district attorney alvin bragg and demanding his testimony. we're gonna have much more on the political fallout just ahead, but first, let's take a look at how we got here with cnn's paula reid, paula right now. former president trump is facing no fewer than four criminal investigations investigation concerning the former president's ongoing the case that seems to be putting trump in the most immediate jeopardy. the manhattan district attorney's investigation into

hush money payments to porn star stormy daniels. $130,000 payments. stormy daniels no, no involves potentially falsified business records and possible campaign finance violations, something that would have surprised trump back in 1999. nobody knows more about campaign finance than i do. the payments to daniels were facilitated by cohen in the final days of the 2016 campaign. the access hollywood tape it just come out and they let you do it. you can do anything, and daniels was allegedly trying to sell her story about sleeping with trump money to stay silent. yes, um the story was coming out again. cohen trump's former fixer and personal attorney, became one of his primary antagonistic. what mr trump is he is a racist. he is a con man. and here's a cheat

, has met with the manhattan da's office 20 times that appeared before the grand jury twice to testify about a $130,000 payment to daniel's to silence her about an alleged affair with trump. president trump denies any such affair now , almost seven years later, the case may be coming to a conclusion. but while this particular investigation maybe the most imminent, legal experts say it's far from the most consequential, trump is also facing a dual pronged special counsel investigation. it is in the public interest to appoint a special counsel examining both the former president's handling of classified documents at mara lago and possible obstruction to walk down. to the capital and his involvement in the events leading up to the storming of the capital. on january 6th. jack smith's case is the most important because it's the constitutionally most significant to the country, and

that's not the only investigation related to the 2020 election and its aftermath in georgia. fulton county d a funny willis is looking into trump and his allies efforts to overturn the 2020 election. i just want to find 11,000. 780 votes. in that case, a special grand jury returned a report recommending multiple indictments and the is still decided on whether to bring charges. now it is remarkable that all those investigations and it's the manhattan probe that could result in the first former u s president being indicted now i don't want to speculate on the strength of the case, pam, but it's certainly not the most consequential investigation he's facing, right and we know there are several. we're going to dive into all of those in the show. but first, let's focus on what is right ahead of us and keira. what's ahead of us is that the grand jury here in manhattan is

expected to reconvene in the morning. if an indictment comes , walk us through what would happen next with trump be immediately notified, and we should note to our viewers. it's not a done deal, right? i mean, we simply don't know what's going to happen. i mean, i think that's the key thing is that first a decision has to be made by the d a to decide we're going to ask this grand jury to hand up this indictment so they would prepare the indictment. bring it to the grand jury in new york. it's 23 people would have to be a majority. so it be 12 now they would then vote on this. and if all 12 voted for it, then the d. a s office would inform trump's attorneys. your client has been indicted. now this is my happens behind the scenes, although, of course, former president trump has been very public about a lot of things that happened, including the rate at mar a lago. but this will be done in private. they would be given a chance to surrender because he's not. this is not a violent felony, you know, and there is always the possibility that he could decide he wants to fight extradition, but i think most people think he would agree to surrender here and, you know, while this is a very normal

process, he has such an unusual person because it would be the first president. that we're going to have security concerns so the secret service would be involved in the transportation. trump has called for protests. we're seeing it already increased presence down at the courthouse by nypd and some new security features installed there. but you know, at a minimum, he would come in, he would surrender. he would be processed like anyone else among shot taken fingerprinted, you know, read his rights and you know, because he's a former president, and there is a security issue. he would likely have this expert to the next piece expedited, which would be getting before a judge. but again. because it it if he is charged. nothing is a violent crime here. he would likely be released that day. and then, um , you know, be on his way. i mean, as you just heard, karen layout, the grandeur e would vote and if there was a majority that it would move forward, could brag, decide, though not to bring the indictment. how likely is that? at this point, we know that bob costello testified to undermine michael

cohen. he's michael cohen's former attorney. how much do you think that could factor in? so it's certainly possible. i think it's very, very unlikely at this point that alvin bragg would not seek an indictment. so too big decisions have to be made before this becomes an indictment. first alvin bragg as the d a. as the prosecutor has to decide. am i going to ask this grand jury for an indictment that is almost entirely early. that is entirely up to the prosecutor. you have very broad discretion. you can decide to seek an indictment or not seeking indictment for really any reason that you believe is appropriate. if he decides i'm going to ask this grand jury for an indictment, then they will vote on it as carrot just laid out. you need a majority vote. it's a lower standard than to convict. all you need is probable cause the vast majority of the times when a prosecutor asked for an indictment, you get an indictment. you think about this. i mean, the numbers are important, right? if you have 23 people who could possibly way in a you do have just the bare minimum majority of 12 as a prosecutor. you don't feel confident going forward to trial in a case, particularly where the standard of grand jury is just probable cause. imagine if

you had 11 people who said you don't even have probable cause here. you don't want to go forward on reasonable doubt standard. but it doesn't take away their prosecutorial discretion here, even if they were to go forward an indictment, which it looks like they might well do so you have a long way until trial, and there's every moment in time between that moment and then decide whether or not the case should go forward whether you have the evidence to go to batteries hold out. and of course, this is not a case. i think that donald trump would likely plead guilty to sort of go. let's just streamline the process against that's not. but why is it so clear to you that that likely will happen? you said. it's unlikely that bragg would not bring an indictment to the grand jury. why to bring our viewers up to speed who may not be following every twist and turn basically at the end of the road here, alvin bragg has put in all the witnesses that he wants to call that's been the reporting and an important tell here is he gave donald trump as the putative defendant the chance to come in and testify or to put in his own witnesses. that's how we heard or the grand

jury heard from this lawyer, robert costello. yesterday you would not do that as a prosecutor until you are in absolute endgame and ready to cap this off, and lawyers right? prosecutors do sometimes use the grand jury as a little bit of a test avenue, right. and if you cannot get 23 grand jurors it is night and day. the difference in indictment is easy. you can indict all day every day. but if you can't get 23 grand jurors by that lower standard of proof, even a majority or if just barely a majority, that is a bad sign for your case, and by the way, excuse me, pam in new york there, and you've made this point before. um in new york. most people think well, why on earth would it possible defendant? we asked to testify before a grand jury? what is it? what? i possibly have to come and talk to you and give myself enough rope to hang myself? well, in reality that's required in new york the step before you actually go through the indictment. you offer that now desmond are going to do it. he obviously did not. but the fact that happened here is why people think it's more likely than not. they'll move forward, but i think there's still no absolute guarantee by virtue. fact that

is tuesday. we don't have anything yet. anything yet grand juries meeting tomorrow. wait and see, of course. donald trump himself said over the weekend that he was going to be indicted today. clearly that didn't happen. what are your sources in trump world, saying pollock? clearly in that day, people in trump's own staff came out and said, look, we have no evidence to suggest we haven't been informed. anything is going to happen on tuesday, but in the same post, where he predicted he would be arrested, he also called for his supporters to protest and then in between other truth, social posts. he was fundraising, so clearly he believes that leaning into this whole investigation in the possibility of an arrest and indictment is politically advantageous for him, and that's also part of why we're seeing him. we are told being so willing to participate to come to the court to do his appearance. he wants to be seen . he wants to lean into this for political purposes. now we've spoken with a couple sources in trump world tonight. they say that they're in the dark on what's going to happen next. they don't know if there will be additional witnesses. they don't know when there will be a vote on an indictment, but they have

told me that if there is an indictment this week that that initial will appearance won't happen until at least next week . what do you think? what are the charges just to remind our viewers to keira that donald trump could face here? sources tell me that what prosecutors are looking at is a falsified business records. remember michael cohen had advanced that $130,000 payment to stormy daniels and then the trump organization and donald trump himself reimbursed him. so what prosecutors are looking at there are falsified invoices that they say michael cohen or that michael cohen himself, says he submitted and then how it was recorded in the books. remember, cohen pleaded guilty in the federal case, and federal prosecutors in their charging documents said that this was recorded incorrectly as a legal expense because it was really this reimbursement, so that's a misdemeanor in new york. now for them to make it a felony. they'd have to show that this was done to concealer commit another crime. and the common thinking here is that would be campaign finance related really important point. paying hush money is not a crime. knowing about hush money payment is not a crime.

the crux of the crime here is the falsification of the documents falsely logging them on the internal books of the trump organization as attorneys fees and so through all the noise, the key thing prosecutors have to show is that donald trump knew about that, or order it or blessed it so all the other facts here are important and relevant. but the heart of the matter is that donald trump know how those books were being kept area. all right. thank you so much. ali laura! paula. thank you so much, carol. oh, she ate and significant new evidence of the justice department's probe. into trump's handling of classified documents. there are brand new developments significant to that investigation. the breaking news is up next stay with us. the fast signs. signage that gets you noticed turns hot lots into homes. that signs make your statement to pay only $40 per month with sling tv to watch cnn

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will you make something better? create something new. our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise. you need to bring out the innovator in you. new tonight. a federal judge's convinced the doj has evidence donald trump intentionally misled his own lawyers during the mara lago documents investigation. cnn's caitlin collins joins us now, caitlin, what do we know about this finding by the judge? essentially what she is? what she has found here is that the justice department has convinced this judge that former president trump did use one of his defense attorneys. in furtherance of a crime or fraud when it comes to the existence of classified documents at mara lago. obviously this is something we've been talking about, especially ever since last friday, when the judge ruled that prosecutors had met that crime fraud exception when it came to evan corcoran. and if people aren't familiar with with what the crown products option is, it basically means they want evan corcoran to come testify again before the grand jury, which is already done. but this time when he's asked questions,

he can't cite attorney client privilege for not being able to answer some of those questions and the reason that she agrees with the prosecutors here is significant because it basically means the first time that the judge is saying here that it is trump who may have committed the crime here, not trump or corporate, which has kind of been ambiguous before, so it's incredibly significant, it could be significant. to what? jack smith, the special counsel's pursuing here when it comes to potential obstruction of justice . what we do know is that as part of this, they do have handwritten notes and audio recordings from evan corcoran that is the defense attorney who has been handling the documents probe ever since may ever since, of course in august, when the justice department and the fbi went in and had that search warrant at mara lago, so this is significant because it zeroes in on trump. now he has not been charged with anything. it remains to be seen how this all ends up. but when it comes to how all this is being pursued here and what could happen over the next few days. it's incredibly significant here because like you said it, it gives you a window that they

have evidence potentially about his state of mind and this and we don't know exactly what the evidence is will, it says, but it is a significant development and that it's trump and not even corcoran, his defense attorney here, trump that may have committed the crime. that is what we write. we wait to see what, of course, the courts decide here because we do know also that evan corcoran and trump's attorneys are fighting this that he has to go and testify again. we don't know what the judge is ultimately going to decide. they took it before the d. c. circuit court. it is now up to them to decide whether or not he does have to go and testify. which would be incredibly significant if he does that a monumental ruling if he has to go before a grand jury with no attorney client privilege to talk about his conversations with trump would be an incredible development. i know you'll be watching it closely, caitlin. thank you stick around. cnn's evan perez joins us now. so evan, the other big cases in fulton county, georgia, where, in the words of atlanta d, a funny willis back in january. quote decisions are imminent. here we are, evan that is the case, of course, involving efforts to overturn the 2020 election, including this infamous call. so look i

want to do is just i just want to find ah! 11,780. votes which is one more that we have, because we want to say so, evan, what do we know about the timing of an investigation now, almost seven months into a special grand jury. yeah look, the words imminent, really still hang over this investigation because that's what the specialty the district attorney there has been promising, but we know that just in recent days, they've asked for another interview with another trump attorney, christina bob, and so we know that she was at least she overheard or listen to. that phone call the 11 of the phone calls their that they know how recordings of where trump is pressuring local officials to help him find the votes that he

believes will help him remaining officer at least when georgia which of course he had lost, so we did. this indicates that there is still some investigation being done. uh, so perhaps it's not as imminent as we first believed. the problem for the district attorney there is that obviously this has been going on for about seven months , and the clock is ticking right for the political calendar. and so the question is, you know, are they going to bring this perhaps in the next month or two? uh wildest of the political count calendar is going on. and, of course, that's also the political colonel. that calendar that the justice department is having to pay attention to, because as you know, the candidates are declaring and everybody is getting ready for the coming election. pamela alright evan perez. thank you so much for that. so let's dig into the merits of three of the biggest criminal investigations swirling around the former

president david shown represented donald trump as lead counsel during his second impeachment. trial and karen friedman magnify alot is a former prosecutor from the manhattan d a s office. thank you both for being here. all right. so let's start in georgia , shall we? i asked trump's attorney drew findling about that infamous call. you just heard even talking about it. looking to find votes. let's listen again. what i'm worried about is that people just listen to eight or nine seconds and don't really look at evidence. so we look at 62 minutes. we look at all the evidence and looking at all the evidence we understand, and we know that our client did not break any laws whatsoever. alright so i'm going to ask both of you here, given that there is at least three calls that we know of, and dozens of witnesses. how strong is the case will start with you, david, that fani willis is putting together in your view. i don't think she has a strong case. frankly um, you know, there were other people on the call as well. i can tell you that president trump believes the call was perfectly fine and that he meant when he said, find the votes that he believed in

his heart that there had been election fraud. he sincerely believes that and so therefore he felt he was doing nothing wrong. he's right. you have to listen to the full call. um and unfortunately funny. willis's when she was an assistant. she was a pretty hardcore prosecutor. she's become quite a political character, and i think she thinks her constituency supports this prosecution. no matter what, and i'm afraid. now there's a race to see who's going to indict president trump first. karen well, i think if you only look at that one phone call out of context, it really doesn't tell the whole picture. the special grand jury that isn't indicting donald trump or any of the other individuals they've heard from many, many, many witnesses. they didn't just hear about the phone call, and i think when you put it all together in context, you will see that this was more than just a phone call. this was an effort a concerted effort by donald trump and other people who are close to him. to try to, uh, basically, throw the election

and find these votes that didn't exist, so i think it's going to be a sweeping indictment that's going to come out of georgia. that's going to be much more than just this phone call so that there's emotion that was just filed to yes to the special grand jury, and it's to be clear with our audience. that's not a criminal grand jury. they're not the ones that you would bring an indictment. but i want to move to new york and specifically. the hash money case involving stormy stormy daniels. you have trump's former lawyer michael cohen, and rudy giuliani's lawyer, robert costello, both of whom have testified as witnesses in front of the grand jury going after one another. let's take a listen to that. i listened to michael cohen stand in front of the courthouse and say things that are directly contrary to what he said to us. i think he's a clown bob costello. if he was any more imaginary in the statements that are coming out of his mouth, he'd be a number one new york times bestselling fiction author what do you think, david that so much of this case seems to hinge on the

credibility of those two men, costello and cohen. well now costello is in the picture before it hung on the credibility of michael cohen. i can tell you this, everything that bob costello has said to the grand jury. he has documents to support i can always tell also tell you this from bob costello. he made it quite clear that the prosecutors didn't want that grand jury to hear from him. he had a very tough time when he went in, tried to tell the story. they wouldn't ask him questions about stormy daniels. he had to volunteer all of that stuff, but i'll tell oh, you this. more importantly, i'm sure this is good friend of miss sagna fellow giulietta lozano, who is the head of the major economics crime bureau said and said mike mark pomerantz, facebook page 1 59. she could never imagine calling michael cohen as a witness on any subject because she did not trust anything he ever said. that's pretty strong former attorney in the da's office for audience who may not know who that is. go ahead. so michael cohen is known to everybody as a witness that you're going to have to corroborate because he has a conviction for lying to congress. he has other convictions and so that whatever

bob costello said to the grand jury was not news to the grand jury. everybody knows that michael cohen, he does paint a very colorful picture of the of the people surrounding trump in the circumstances. in fact, he himself said he wrote the playbook for trump of how you go, and you do things that are underhanded or are illegal, frankly. and so he provides the color, but there are documents. there are other witnesses and for my for castello to say that he didn't have an opportunity to say what he wanted to say in the grand jury. he was in there for almost three hours. grand jury is a bare bones supposed to be a bare bones presentation. witnesses sometimes go in for short periods of time. it's not like a trial where your cross examined him three hours to say whatever he wanted. let me say this a couple of things. first of all, he had 330 emails. they gave the grand jury six of them. but what's different about bob costello? that is new to the grand jury is that when michael cohen spoke to him, he spoke to him as his lawyer or legal advisor and bob costello said, according to bob costello, mr

cohen, this is your chance. if you have anything on trump use it. now this is your chance, and michael cohen kept saying to him, according to castelo, i'll never i'll do any effing thing to stay out of jail, he said. if you have something on trump stormy daniels or anything else, use it now, and he said he had nothing on trump and according to costello, he threatened to commit suicide. he spoke to jerry falwell about that he was at wit's end, and you can be sure he would have done it. then what changed? lanny davis is his lawyer now for one thing, and he sees now how to market himself. perhaps but bob costello is different because it's one thing to lie to maggie haberman in a story and be covering when your own lawyer or your legal advisor you're talking to and you believe is privileged or otherwise. that's a different story. this is the time when you had a motivation to tell the truth, by the way, said on the news the other night that he never recalled signing a privileged waiver with bob costello. i mean, i have a copy of it here, he signed a privilege waiver. or do you think we'll see what the grand jury does if he is as compelling

as as he says, he is, and if he has all this information, he had three hours to tell the grand jury and this isn't going to be alvin bragg, necessarily charging donald trump. this is the people of the state of new york versus donald trump. and this is going to come through the indictment of 23 grand jurors. who will have heard all of the evidence in this case. good bad and ugly, including donald trump's side of the story through the witness that he asked himself to be put in that grand jury, and we'll see what the grand jury does. okay thank you so much. we got to leave it there really great discussion. civil discussion on this topic. we appreciate it. thank you so much. karen and david. so what's it like inside trump world right now? how worried is the former president about the possibility of being indicted and arrested? we're live near his home in florida and some of the reporters who have covered him the longest they could join us with new reporting right after this break. stay with us. ever better disruption hits your

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from four imprints are certain to deliver you. yes wow. i love it now at four imprint .com imprint for certain perez in washington, and this is cnn. the reporting tonight in the former president trump's mindset as he and his team braced for potential indictment. sources tell cnn that trump has resigned himself to the fact that he likely will be indicted, but it's toying with the idea of creating a media spectacle. cnn's christian homes is in west palm beach, florida near mara lago. so christian, what more can you tell us? well people are trump's reaction to this pending indictment or likely indictment is really run the full spectrum . as you said, at times, he has toyed with the idea of creating this media spectacle outside of the courthouse and other times, he has celebrated that this

could help him politically, well , also complaining that this is incredibly unfair and from a lot of sources i've spoken to recently have been in touch with the former president. they say recently. he has been actually ignoring this, and they believe this might be some sort of compartmentalization. or resignation to the fact that this is happening, and it's just time to move on. one thing that i thought was really interesting from the number of close advisers that i spoke to of the former president is what we're hearing all of these allies and republicans publicly say that trump is going to be helped significantly politically by this. those closest to him weren't so adamant. they said. yes, they do believe it will help him in a contested primary will give him a boost. but that they have no idea what this would look like long term that they're an uncharted territories at 18 tell me they'd rather he not be indicted at all to get any sort of potential boost and have to deal with this, but they are putting plans in place. they do feel like they don't have a lot of that information that none of us have in terms of

timing, and the one thing that really has trying to throw a wrench in all this is the former president's trip to waco, texas, on saturday for his first campaign rally. there are a lot of questions about if that event will happen. and how exactly, they're going to pull that off. all right, christine holmes. thank you. so much more perspective now from two journalists who closely follow trump world. cnn's caitlin collins and cnn political analyst maggie haberman, who is also the new york times senior political correspondent. no one covers trump better than you, too. so thanks for your time tonight, i want to start with some of your reporting maggie that trump is literally preparing for his perp walk. he's actually fixated. on the idea of being paraded out by authorities take us inside. so trump is posturing. a you know a strong stance, right? i'm not afraid he's trying to project strength. he's trying to look as if he is not worried about what is coming now, according to people who know him very well. he has spent decades concerned about the prospect of being arrested literally decades and so it's hard to imagine that you know this is all reality, but he

is basically embracing the idea where this is going to go. and as we've seen over time when the access hollywood tape came i'm out in 2016. he went downstairs outside of trump tower and immersed himself in a crowd of his supporters. he has repeatedly tried to show that he is not experiencing shame or hiding in any way, and i think you're going to see that what exactly that looks like if he's indicted, which, you know, all indications are that it's likely to happen. we don't know because we don't know what this arrangement will look like this. he will be the most famous defendant to be entering 100 or 80 center street. it could happen a number of ways, but i think he will want to make sure that he is seen somehow as we know, he lets a show right? you want to spectacle but given all the security around it. as maggie points out, the historic nature of this happens, he may not kit. might not get that spectacle remains to be seen. what this actually looks like. i do think that they know that this image of him walking in if that is what it ultimately leads to when he surrenders himself. if this indictment comes down will be this indelible images

that will be played over and over again. i think that's why they want to project strengthen that i still think they and by that, i mean trump's legal team and his allies don't think the merits of this case are going to be very strong that ultimately will be very damaging to him. but it is something that has really bothered him this case, especially not just because of the merits. because it's about stormy. daniels has been something that is both of you know very well. it's incredibly bothered the first lady melania trump when trump was in the white house, and the story was in the headlines every single day. it was a huge issue during the campaign because of just the sensitivity of the nature of it, and so i think that's a big part of why it is something that has bothered him so much. i do think they are thinking of how to translate those images of if it is him walking into the courthouse. what that's going to look like as christian was noting they debated give him giving a speech after remains to be seen. what he ultimately what he does and what that looks like, but it is a very sensitive case for that. yeah it is. it is. you're right. it is personally very sensitive for him. i think that for his aides, they look at it as the

investigation of the four that he is facing. that's for criminal investigations, one in georgia to justice department investigations that have sort of merged into one and this one. this is the one they are. they say they are the least worried about the reality is that i'm not sure how much his political advisors actually have their hands around what this looks like. i think what the legal team says matters more here. but if this is where it stays, one adviser said to me earlier today. they feel like they can live with this politically if it starts to become another indictment and then another indictment. that's a lot of freight, and i think they're not really sure how that plays out. republicans are twisting themselves and knots over how to respond. they have been at this retreat in orlando. they put out this letter from these three chairman demanding testimony from alvin bragg. we were talking to one of the house republicans earlier today, and i've spoken to several on the phone today about it's so unusual that they haven't even seen the charges yet. we don't actually know what he may be charged with. there may not be charges have actually seen the indictment and i think that's notable right. but he wants a strong response from his allies. you know how he is when he's in

a time like this? he and his allies want to see the strong response coming from other republicans and they're sending this letter. we don't even they don't even really know what they're asking. but part of what they're they're you know, some people around trump are telling themselves is there's a chance that you know if we keep up this pressure that alvin bragg is not going to indict donald trump, and it's likely to have the opposite reaction. frankly you know, for a variety of reasons, alvin bragg has made clear to his staff. we are not going to bend to these threats. i think they have said that publicly, which is pretty remarkable for the d a s office to say that, but he has a also made for alvin bragg, a liberal democrat in manhattan, being hold before congress by trump's republican allies. that's not terrible politics for him. so i mean this idea that they think they're going to bully him out of this strikes me as magical thinking. it was interesting because mccarthy talked about this and he said, you know, i'm talking about trump again because you guys are asking about this. but then they sent the letter. the three chairman sent that letter. they're also keeping it right center stage. there's also, uh, classified document case that's

going on looming and all of this. tell us about the new reporting on that, caitlin. so this is trump's attorney as a defense attorney, evan cork. and they're now before d c circuit court trying to push back on what the judge ruled on friday, which is that they do believe prosecutors have met that crime fraud exception here, and essentially, he would have to testify before the grand jury without being able to say i can. no to that question because of attorney client privilege. they want him to answer lines of questioning. he previously declined to answer for that obvious protection. and so that could be something we see as soon as tomorrow. we don't know. actually we know that it is going before the d c circuit court. we know that they have to make a decision on it or otherwise he does have to go testify. and so it's remarkable to see these two things playing out simultaneously, and it just speaks to the number of investigations that are going on. that's exactly right. and remember, this is on the crime fraud exception, which is why the judge has said you know, corcoran should go ahead and testify because there's enough evidence that the justice department has put forward that his legal advice was used in service of a crime. doesn't it doesn't mean that corcoran was

the one doing it could mean that the trump was the one doing it, but but it is. it is remarkable to watch the convergence of this. you're absolutely right. alright caitlin collins, maggie haberman. thank you so much. trump has called for protests on his behalf if he's indicted, but tonight, former vice president mike pence is breaking with his old boss again. we're going to explain up next. i'm eva longoria. i'm exploring mexico to see how the people have shaped a culinary tradition as diverse as its 32 states. louisville longoria searching for mexico premiere sunday at 10 on cnn. or did they discuss. wells fargo has donated $50 million in support of indigenous peoples. including funding solar furnaces. that converts sunlight

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rugged 321321. the mark twain prize for american humor celebrating adam sandler sunday on cnn. i think in this instance i would discourage americans from engaging in protests if, in fact the former president is indicted. i understand the frustration. i've i. as i said this past weekend, i if the president is in fact indicted by the manhattan d a. that appears to me to be a politically motivated prosecution. former vice president mike pence, breaking from his former boss. president trump has called for protests if he is indicted, their former vice president, pence, saying, maybe there are other ways to let voices be heard. so let's discuss gloria borger is here with us going to start with you. what do you make of that response from pence? well i think he's trying to thread the needle here in his mike pence way without sort of

directly saying what the former president is charged with what the case is about the low hanging fruit is, of course, alvin bragg and you heard that at the republican retreat in florida this week, as you guys were talking about they're just saying that this is politically motivated and that the charges are ridiculous. they never quite get to the point about whether donald trump conceivably could have done this or didn't do this . so you know, mike pence again , trying to be a little more delicate about it that, for example, rond de santis was when he took a sledgehammer to donald trump. so i think it's just mike pence, walking this line that we have seen him walk ever since january. 6th exactly that comes with that context, right? he was there at the capitol building during january. sex listen to mike pence anyway. who cares? i mean, the people who are going to march and protest they would march in protest against pence himself, and they think they were chanting. hang my exactly. i don't think that i don't think he's got a lot of lot of play

with this crowd is in the safe place that, gloria said. this and this indictment. this this this pending indictment. the safe place to be is to kind of condemn the district attorney, right? and i think you see a lot of republicans out there on this one. that may not be out there on the on the following this is this is a safe space to go out politically. you know, this is a prosecution has been passed on by cy vance by that southern district of new york and lots of other folks. and so i think it's safe to say if you're republican, this is a persecution, not prosecution, right? and so that's where they're going, and it's fine to do it, but it's interesting. yeah trump has already laid the groundwork for all of these cases to be politically motivated, he said. that about funny willis in atlanta, he said that about jack smith, the special counsel, and that's the documents case. so trump is laying the groundwork here and in this case there following because it's easier because this is a controversial case, to say the least going to fall off. i think to be clear the differences. some of these prosecutors like alvin bragg bringing us a democrat was elected. you have someone like

jack smith, who is a civil servant, right? i mean doj, so it's a totally different situation there. but if you look at big picture have republicans are responding. it's really fascinating because it wasn't long ago after the midterms where you had a lot of republicans, saying they were ready to leave trump behind now , here they are coming out of the you know every corner defending. that's why democrats , knees are knocking so loud all across the country because you're about to make a martyr out of somebody who had been a clown, and that's the problem. you had a lot of people who, like, look, he's fading, he said. i'm running for president. nobody's coming to his rallies. he's gonna go away and now suddenly he's roaring back as a martyr, and so a lot of people joe manchin and others are saying, guys don't get too happy about this indictment. it could blow back up on you when republicans are in a position with trump where they can't live with him, and i can't live without him. they need the base. they want the basis point don't want trump. at some point. you know, trump is definitely ascending right now the former president on his way up. his number is going to go up there.

if they run polls, you're gonna have a big crowd in waco. it's going to be like, you know, the glory days of 2016. people are gonna be there. now how long has that stated that stay through the second indictment. the third indictment fourth indictment. that's the question, right? that's the question. if there are if they do cover if everybody's trying to figure out the politics of it. i do think it's important to point out that you know people are kind of beating up on alvin, if you're the prosecutor. and lawmakers in your state came up with a law. it says. we don't want politicians behaving in a bad way. we don't want him doing lying, cheating and stealing. we don't want a bunch of jorge santos is running the whole state and that laws on the books and somebody violates that law. he's not supposed to care if it's good for democrats, politically or bad or if it's good for republicans are supposed to look at the law. and i think you gotta it's weird to me that everybody now wants prosecutor to think about the politics of it and not the law of it. i just think the discretion piece of it right. so listen again. we talked about this before, but if you're going to do this, if you're going to indict the president, you better

do something. there better be a body laying next to the guy, right? i mean, it better be something good that you're going to convict him on something. daniels is not the first case that anyone would right and so and so now, now, when these other indictments come down, it's going to be what what? what? what? it's gonna be white noise for a lot of america. the thing is, there's no precedent here for any of this. i mean, has there been any polling ever done on the potential indictment of a leading presidential candidate who was also a former president. i mean, you just we've never had this before, so it's actually the rest of the world. you have president g and putin meeting right. there's lots of things going on in the world that are very serious, very scary that americans should be concerned about. and instead, the world is looking at us saying what's going on in america? well, i mean, it is a big deal, though. it is a big deal, but it's kind of other important things going on and has been covering that, but no, i get it. but my point is, americans are looking at the around the world. people looking at this case, right whether you're great britain, our allies, our friends. people are saying this is what he's getting

indicted taking down the president over this indicted yet, so we just wanna make sure all right in the former president, we should say to david urban van jones, gloria borger, thank you all so much. so how long force mint is preparing for potential protest? we're going to have that right after a quick break. somewhere out there. is that one in a million someone who thinks with their hands. and shape raw materials into something meaningful. and he wants to serve in their own way. if you're out there if you're looking for more we're looking. to we're calling on a new generation of builders for navies next gen. submarines. what does it mean to be ever better? it's your customers getting what they ordered when they expected discover how rider e commerce makes your customers' experience ever better. trying

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agencies at high alert on all levels preparing for what could be the first ever indictment of a former president, cnn senior crime and justice correspondent among pro compares is here. so what are you hearing from your sources about the security? look, i think everyone's just waiting for word on when this is going to happen. enforcement is prepared. the big thing is the secret service component of getting in the former president getting him out safely. and right now they're not seeing any of this chatter. that's online and social media that's overly concerning certainly not seeing anything to the level before. january 6th, but everyone's ready. you know when they get word that he's going to becoming area if he comes here if there's an indictment will close streets still move things around and hopefully get them in safely and get them out. that's the big concern from them. and obviously if people show up to protest and make sure that that's done safely, but they're prepared and every day there are meetings to discuss this, and they're just waiting for the next steps to hear whether or not this is going to happen, obviously before like something like january, 6th you mentioned we

saw a lot of chatter or they see nothing like that here. i mean, they're actually i think there's some surprise about it, but certainly they're sort of saying we're not seeing it. you know, when you look at the protests, there was calls for people to march today, there were barely any people who showed up so far, law enforcement is pretty satisfied and i think they're happy to see this. but they're going to be prepared no matter what. alright ramon pro capaz. thank you so much. excellent reporting. well, thank you all for joining us. chair's gotta go. okay i'm thinking couches. love seats. yeah love seats. something about love seats make me feel happy. kevin. i bought the team cash brothers. philby was my best friend to us to you. treason let me accusing you of. phil. how

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