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for tiktok tonight at nine. it is the top of the hour. i'm john berman and america hill. just moments from now the future of tiktok in the us, the ceo said, to face a grilling from lawmakers over the safety of that app when it comes to your data. and what if any, of that information may be sharing with the chinese government, tiktok says it has more than 150 million users here in the united states, so as you can imagine, a lot of folks interested in this testimony. we're going to take you to that hearing live. obviously we are also watching what's going on in lower manhattan, where a grand jury investigating former president trump that grand jury is meeting today. but we learned just moments ago they will not be discussing a possible indictment today for donald trump. this, of course, has to deal with connections to the hush money

scheme to pay off adult film star stormy daniels again. we just learned no testimony, and we don't believe any kind of vote from the grand jury on an indictment for trump today. so what are they doing? and what does that mean? we're gonna answer those questions also alright? look at this. the dow up more than 200 points today. it's after a drop big time yesterday after the fed raised interest rates again. so what does all this mean? what the fed chair said yesterday that they didn't like, but they like today . we'll try to figure that all out. if we can easy to keep track of, isn't it? yeah to capitol hill, where just moments from now we will hear from the tiktok ceo in his first sworn testimony before lawmakers moments ago, he spoke to reporters as he walked into the capital. we are very excited to be here and many misconceptions about company and i'm very proud to come here and represent them and all our users here in this country. cnn's natasha bertrand following these developments for us, and she joins us now, so we

expect some tough questions. what else do we expect to hear from the ceo? they're going to be many fiery exchanges during this hearing today, erica and we are told that in his prepared remarks the ceo of tiktok, he is going to ensure to lawmakers that bite dance, which is the parent company. the chinese parent company of tiktok is not an agent of the chinese government. he is also expected to say that as part of the effort that tiktok is making to reassure americans and lawmakers that their data is not going to be given to china, or that they won't be improperly spied on that tiktok does plan to firewall user data in the u. s from unauthorized foreign access . now, he is also going to note that tiktok has essentially become really essential in everyday life to american culture and also to creators influencers, right and, of course, small businesses so that that is the argument. we expect him. to lay out here, but us lawmakers, they're already really expressing serious doubts about his testimony and the

chair of the house energy and commerce committee, who which is the committee that he will be testifying before today, she is already saying that they plan to expose the ceos quote lies. here's what she said. we are going to ask him questions. we're going to expose the truth about some of the lies that tiktok and ceo who has been stating, and we're going to expose the fact that tiktok cannot be trusted. they cannot be trusted with our data. they cannot be trusted to protect our children's mental health and we're going to expose that truth today. no, it's not just republicans who are expressing concern about this app, the chairman of the senate intelligence committee, democrat senator democratic senator mark warner, he was also telling cnn this morning that he believes that the app should be banned, but tiktok has acknowledged in recent weeks that it is, you know, federal officials are demanding that bytedance sell its stake in the company. it is unclear whether they're going to do that. but just one final thing here one thing that tiktok

did not do to help its case here. is that four employees of tiktok were found to be improperly accessing journalist data on the app. two of those employees were in china. they were subsequently fired. but expect to hear a lot of questions about that today at the hearing, john erica. yeah i think we're gonna hear a lot of very, very pointed questions at this hearing. which starts very shortly. natasha bertrand? thank you, as always for your reporting. joining me now to discuss these data security concerns at tiktok justin sherman, he's the founder and ceo of global cyber strategies. just it's good to have you with us this morning is so as we wait for this hearing to get underway . there's a lot of talk about tiktok being a national security threat. those are the words that we hear coming from a lot of makers. a lot of lawmakers rather based on what you know about how the company is operating in this country. is it a national security threat? and if so, why? there are really two pieces to this debate. the first is, how is what tiktok's collecting and doing with data?

how is the way it's delivering content any different than any other app? and so in this sense, we get to the question of the lack of us privacy law. the data wild west of google, facebook of data brokers of plenty of companies who or in this business of collecting and aggregating data using it in potentially harmful ways. and so in that sense, as many folks have pointed out, some of these issues go well beyond tiktok. so they do time. yeah go ahead. sorry, just so they do right. the second piece, though, is that many of those other companies i just named or not owned by a chinese technology company. and so that's where a lot of this debate has led to is okay, even if the data collection on tiktok is the same as facebook or some others. what is the risk that the chinese government because of the parent company by dance could actually access that data as a result, and what is that risk? i think

the risk is there. i think you know, the chinese government has shown clearly that it can coerce technology companies within china to censor content to hand over data to assist with espionage. i think the real question here is we can't just look at this from a national security standpoint. so what's the other users? right so free speech and all of these other considerations come into play? um and that's why i think were far less likely to get a full ban and more likely to see some kind of potentially middle ground restriction. it's also i think for people at home trying to wrap their head around it again, tiktok says. they're 150 million users here in the us, we know it's popular, and it's not just with kids. i know people my age and older, right, who loved tiktok for recipes or great housecleaning hacks. whatever it may be. i think when people hear this and that there's a potential that the chinese government could access their information. the next logical question is okay. so then what are they doing with that? and

why should i? as a user be concerned about it? this is why the risk is a lot clearer for government employees, and it is for the average american. in december, congress said no federal government device can use tiktok. i think that makes sense. i think the risk to your point is a lot higher when we're talking about could you potentially get behavioral information or location data on somebody who works in the government? but that's why when we talk about a complete ban, one that would impact all of these other americans who don't work in government who don't have clearances. that's why a lot of people have trouble getting there is they say, what does my activity have to do with the chinese government. and yes , there's concerns as well about content. but again, most people , i think, feel that the hair consuming content that you know is not propaganda or anything, but is dance videos and recipes and political content and other information is there just i mean, just a couple of practical questions for you, too, because

i find these come up when i talk with people about this story. is there anything that you can change in your current settings on tiktok that restricts that data? appreciate your this is the challenge with most apps nowadays is there are some small tweaks you can make. for example on tiktok. it'll ask you can we get access to your contacts on your phone? so you can and you should say no to that question, but at the end of the day, everything you do on the app the videos you watch or you watching conservative content, liberal content. are you watching lgbtq content right content from black creators all of that. gets collected and taken into the company systems. that's not something you can really change if you use the app and to your point that is also information that other apps are collecting other social media apps that people are using when we talk about a band, too. i mean, how does that work for the 150 million users in this country who already have tiktok on their phones if it's banned is it just

going to magically disappear? if it were to be banned. i think it would start with the app stores . the app stores would probably apple and google removed tiktok from their stores and then tiktok would probably which it did in india when it was banned , stopped people in the country from accessing tiktok servers, but i think a ban is highly unlikely, and a lot of that, as mentioned is legal right? the same authorities trump used when he tried to ban tiktok. in 2020 , the president cannot restrict the import or export of information. obviously tiktok is involved in information. and so there are a few bills that would give the executive that authority but right now, that has not changed, and so a lot of this bind administration talk of let's do a ban. it sounds great . maybe if they get a bill passed, but right now, i don't see how that's possible. this has become such a hot political

issue. interesting to see right focus on both sides of the aisle coming together on it when we look at it from a broader perspective, though, sort of geopolitical issue. how important is it for the united states politically to take a stand? and how much do you think that's driving some of this? politics is absolutely a piece of this. what's even going back years before former president trump tried to ban tiktok? he actually told reporters on air force one that banning tiktok would be a great way to get back at china for the spread of covid. and so politics has been a part of this. not all of it, but part of it since day one. as you said, right now, there are members today. i'm sure who will want to make political points about the need for a privacy law, which we absolutely need. there will be others who probably will try to out china bash each other and sort of use this as a punching bag to say the chinese government is a

problem. china's a competitor to the u. s. and so all of that, i think is mixed into this debate and will impact. i think a little bit. what happens going forward? yes, i think we can certainly, uh, predict, with fares fairly fairly good certainty that there will be some viral moments whether they make it onto the tiktok. that's a separate issue. justin sherman . really good to have you with us this morning. thanks for explaining it so well and making it so relatable for us. thank you. and a quick programming note for you. be sure to join us tonight for cnn prime time as abbey hill, phillip takes a look at tiktok future. amid these calls to ban the app is time up for tiktok hosted by abby phillip airs tonight. right here. nine p.m. donald trump's legal team facing a deadline today, so this isn't a case that would determine whether the former president can be held liable for his conduct leading up to the insurrection. department of justice argues that the president cannot be immune to private lawsuits

brought against him for his role in the riot. trump's lawyers want the cases thrown out under the umbrella presidential immunity. cnn's caitlin poland's who's covering any number of things joins us now and you've also got some new reporting on the role of former vice president mike pence in the january 6th probe. what's going on there? well i am at the federal courthouse and we did see one of donald trump's lawyers here today. evan corcoran at the center of many different criminal investigations. he's representing donald trump as that team is trying to fight some of the testimony that vice president former vice president mike pence may give before a federal grand jury. so remember pence had been subpoenaed to come in and testify in the grand jury. probe of january 6th and trump's team is trying to assert some level of executive privilege basically protect the conversations he would have had directly with mike pence and we

know today we have been able to confirm that there is a hearing expected it would be under seal. but it is donald trump's team still arguing to try and cordon off some of what that testimony might be related to mike pence now, of course, evan corker and we've been watching him quite closely. this week. he was that attorney that the justice department has pursued been pursuing more answers from in the mara lago probe. a separate criminal investigation, also by the special counsel here in this courthouse, he is not here for that today to give additional testimony. it is. it does appear for something else, and he has declined to tell us what it is exactly right. caitlyn poland's in washington. thank you so very much. we're now going to go up on capitol hill there and listen to the ceo of tiktok. showed you intend business school. i actually met my wife here. by the way, she was just born a few miles away from here in virginia. two years ago, i became the ceo of tiktok. today we have more than a billion

monthly active users around the world. including over 150 million in the united states. our app is a place where people can be creative and curious. and we're close to five million american businesses, mostly small businesses go to find new customers and the fuel their growth. tiktok has grown. we've tried to learn the lessons of companies that have come before us, especially when it comes to the safety of teenagers, while the vast majority of people on tiktok over 18. one of the and one of the fastest growing demographics are people over 35. we spent a lot of time adopting measures to protect teenagers. many of those measures are first for the social media industry. we forbid direct messaging for people under 16, and we have a 60 minute, watch time by default for those under 18. we have a suite of family pairing tools so that parents can participate in their teens experience and make

the choices that are right for their family. we want to talk to be a place where teenagers can come to learn. which is why we recently launched a feed that exclusively features educational videos about stem stamp videos already have over 116 billion views on tiktok. and i think tiktok is inspiring a new generation to discover a passion for math and science. and i would also like to talk about national security concerns that you have raised. that we take very, very seriously. let me start by addressing a few misconceptions about biden's of which we are a subsidiary. by dance is not owned or controlled by the chinese government. it's a private company. 60% of the company is owned by global institutional investors. 20% is owned by the founder and 20, owned by employees around the world. by dances, five board members. three of them. are american. now tiktok itself is

not available in mainland china . we're headquartered in los angeles and in singapore, and we have 7000 employees in the u. s today. still. we have heard important concerns about the potential for unwanted foreign access to us data and potential manipulation of the tiktok us ecosystem. our approach has never been to dismiss or trivialize any of these concerns . we have addressed them with real action. now that's what we've been doing for the last two years, building what amounts to a firewall. the seals of protected us user data from unauthorized foreign access. the bottom line is this american data stored on american soil by an american company overseen by american personnel. we call this initiative project texas. that's why oracle is headquartered. today us tiktok data is stored by default in oracle service

only vetted personnel operating in a new company called tiktok. us data security can control access to this data. additionally we have plans for this company to report to an independent american board with strong security credentials. now there's still some work to do. we have legacy us data sitting in our service in virginia and in singapore. we're deleting those, and we expect that to be complete this year. when that is done, all protected us data will be under the protection of u. s law and under the control of the us led security team. this eliminates the concern that some of you have shared with me. the tiktok user data can be subject to chinese law. this goes further by the way than what any other company in our industry have done. we also provide unprecedented transparency and security for the source code for the tiktok app recommendation engine. third party validators like oracle, and others will review and validate our source

code and algorithms. this will help ensure the integrity of the code that powers what americans see on our app. we will further provide access to researchers, which helps them study and monitor our content ecosystem. now we believe we are the only the only company that offers this level of transparency. trust is about actions we take. we have to earn their trust with decisions we make for our company and our products. the potential security privacy content manipulation concerns raised about tiktok. really not unique to us. the same issues to apply to other companies. we believe what's needed are clear , transparent rules that apply broadly to all tech companies. ownership is not at the core of addressing these concerns. as i conclude. there are more than 150 million americans who love our platform, and we know we have a responsibility to protect them. which is why i'm making

the following commitments to you and to all our users. number one. we will keep safety, particularly for teenagers as a top priority for us. number two. we will firewall protected us data from unwanted foreign access. number three take talk will remain a place for free expression and will not be manipulated by any government. and fourth. we will be transparent and we will give access to third party independent monitors the remain accountable for commitments. i'll be grateful for any feedback that you have. and i look forward to your questions. thank you very much. as you know the testimony that you're about to give a subject to title 18 section 2 1001 of the united states code. as you state in your testimony, bite dances, check talks, parent company. is it accurate to say that you are in regular communication with the ceo of bite dance beyond robo? chair rogers. yes i am in.

thank you. mitigation with them. kelly jong is the ceo of bytedance, china, overseeing doi in the chinese version of tiktok. are you in regular communication with kelly. i'm not in regular communication with her. the bite. dance editor in chief is song poop pooping correct. i believe so. and wou. xugang is beijing bytedance technology board member and also an official of the cyberspace administration in china. is this correct? uh i believe so. i they are not in the right all of these individuals work or affiliated with the chinese communist party are not the highest levels of leadership at biden's company, where you previously served as the chief financial officer, where you regularly communicate with their ceo. tiktok is told us that you weren't sharing data with the ccp. but leaked audio from

within. tiktok has proven otherwise to talk. told us that you weren't tracking the geolocation of american citizens . you were tiktok told us. you weren't spying on journalists. you were in your testimony. you state that by dance is not beholden to the ccp again. each of the individuals i listed are affiliated with the chinese communist party, including song fu ping, who was reported to be the communist party secretary of bite dance. and who has called for the party committee. to quote take the lead across all party lines to ensure that algorithm is enforced by quote, correct political direction. just this morning, the wall street journal reported that the ccp is opposed to a forced sale of tiktok by bytedance, quoting a ccp spokesman is saying the chinese government would make a decision regarding any sale of tiktok. so the ccp believes they have the final say over your company. i have zero confidence in your assertion that bite dancing tiktok or not beholden

to the ccp. next question. heating content. is a way of promoting and moderating content in your current or previous positions within chinese companies have employees engaged in heating content for users outside of china. very quickly. yes or no? our healing processes approved by our local teams in the various countries. the answer is yes. thank you. have any moderation tools being used to remove content on tiktok associated with the wigger genocide? yes or no? we do not remove that kind of content. tiktok is a place for freedom of expression and carriages. like i said, if you use our app, you can go on it and you will see a lot of users around the world, expressing content on that topic and many others. what about the massacre in tiananmen square? yes or no? i'm sorry, i'm i didn't hear the question the massacre in tiananmen square. that kind of content is available on our platform. you can go and search it. i will

remind you that making false or misleading statements to congress is a federal crime. i understand again. you can go on our platform. you will find that content. okay. thank you. reclaiming my time. can you say with 100% certainty that bite dancer? the ccp cannot use your company or its divisions to heat content to promote pro ccp messages for an act of aggression against taiwan. we do not promote or remove content at the request of the chinese government question plain question is, are you 100% certain that they cannot use your company? to promote such messages. it is our commitment to this committee and all users that we will keep this free from any manipulation by any government. if you can't say 100% certain i take that as a no. as i previously referenced tiktok spied on american journalists, can you say with 100% certainty that neither bite dance tiktok employees can target other americans was similar surveillance techniques charges i. first of all disagree with the characterization that is spying. it was an internal

investigation. can you do surveillance of other americans ? we will protect the us user data and fire it off from all i wanted for in excess is a commitment that we have given to the committee. so i guess my question is can i want you to wanted to hear you say with 100% certainty. that neither bite nest nor tiktok employees can target other americans with civil similar surveillance techniques as you did with the journalist. again. i don't disagree with the characterizes characterization is surveillance and we have given our commitments chair rogers the four commitments i think i saw a commitment that we will not be influenced by any government on these issues. doj is investigating this this surveillance right now. to the american people watching today. here this tiktok is a weapon by the chinese communist party to spy on you manipulate what you see and exploit for future generations. a ban is only a short term way to address tiktok and a data privacy bill is the

only way to stop tiktok. from ever happening again in the united states. i yield back and now yield to the ranking member for five minutes. thank you, madam chair. let let me just start out by saying, mr chu that i don't find what you suggested with project texas and this firewall. that's being suggested to whoever will be will be acceptable to me. in other words, you know the kind i still believe that the beijing communist government will still control and have the ability to influence what you do. and so this idea of this project, texas is simply not acceptable. according to a recent report, tik tok is on target to make between 15 and $18 billion in revenue this year. is that an accurate forecast? congressman as a private company. we are not sharing our publicly how much money will tiktok make by delivering personalized

advertisements just to your users in the united states. will you give me that information? again congressman respectfully as private companies will not disclosing that look, um my concern the impression you're giving, and i never, you know, i can understand why you're trying to give that impression is that um, you know that you're just performing some kind of public service here, right? i mean, this is a benign company that's just performing a public service . i maybe you're not. maybe that's not what you're saying. but i don't buy it right. my concern here is primarily about the privacy issue. the fact that tiktok is making all kinds of money by collect gathering private information about americans that they don't need for their business purposes, and then they sell it. and i mentioned this legislation that the ranking that the chair and i have, uh, that would minimize data collection and make it much

more difficult for tiktok and other companies. to do that. so what if you want to make some commitments today? one of the aaliyah's shouldn't make some commitments with regard to this legislation. and you know you're gonna tell me well, the bill isn't passed and so therefore i don't have to do it. but you know, you say you're benign. you want to do good things for the public. so let me ask you why not? what about a commitment that says that you won't sell? the data that you collect. would you commit to that? not selling the data you collect, congressman? i believe we don't sell data at two. any data brokers don't sell to anyone. we don't sell data to data brokers . i didn't ask you data brokers. you sell it to anyone. in other words, i under our bill, you can only use the data for your own purposes not to sell it to anyone. would you commit to not selling your data? anyone congressman? i actually am in support of some rules. i didn't ask you whether bruce issue whether the company tiktok. commit to not selling his data

to anyone and just using it for its own. purposes internally. i can get back to you on the details. get back to me, all right. another thing that's in our bill says that we would prohibit targeting marketing to people under the age of 17, which would be willing to agree to prohibit targeted marketing to people. americans under the age of 17. congressman we have actually stricter rules for advertisers in terms of what they can show to our users prohibit target. would you be willing to prohibit targeted marketing to those under 17? that's what's in our bill. i understand that there's some talk and some legislation around this around the country interest . i'm on you to make that commitment without the legislation. since you say you're a good company, you want to do good things. why not? it's something that we can we can look into and get back. okay i appreciate that. okay we also have in arbil. every choir mint of heightened protection for sensitive data, particularly location and health data. would

you commit to not gathering or dealing with location or health data unless you get affirmative consent. from the consumer. in other words, under our bill, those are categorized as sensitive and unless the person specifically says i want you to collect that data, you wouldn't be able to location and health data would you commit to that? could hersman in principle i support that which, by the way, we do not collect precise gps data at this point, and i do not believe we collect any health data. alright, so would you be willing to make that commitment that from now on, you won't collect location. health data without you're saying at all? commitment this is data that's frequently collected by many other companies, you know, and i know other companies do it. i don't think they should. without affirmative consent. you said you want to be a good actor. so why not make that commitment to me today? we are committed to be very transparent of our users about what we collect. i don't think what we collect. i don't believe what we collect this morning. mostly problem here is

you're trying to give the impression that you're going to move away from beijing and the communist party. you're trying to give the impression that you're a good actor, but the commitments that we would seek to achieve those goals are not being made today. they're just not being made. you're going to continue to gather data. you're going to continue to sell data. you're going to continue to all these things and continue to be under the ages of the communist party through the through your, you know, organization that owns you. so in any case, thank you. thank you, madam chair. gentleman yields back here now recognizes the gentleman from texas mr burgess for five minutes, listening there to the ceo of tiktok, testifying on capitol hill. this, of course, coming from a push by lawmakers to ban the app. they're talking a lot about national security concerns. a lot of concerns about china having access to that data, cnn national security reporter reporter natasha bertrand is covering this for us. we expected a grilling and i would say out of the gate that

the lawmakers did not disappoint natasha. out of the gate arca. they have been really grilling the ceo about privacy concerns, data protection concerns and, of course about the concerns about bytedance, which is the parent company, the chinese parent company of tiktok. but look, the ceo made a lot of points there to try to rebut these national security concerns in chief among them is what he described as a project called project, texas. now that has been tiktok main apparatus through which they have tried to convince lawmakers and the american public at large that the user data that tiktok is collecting on us users will not be routed outside the united states. and what he said is that tiktok has built a firewall to shield us user data from unauthorized foreign access, and that that data is now being stored on servers in the united states hosted by oracle, which is an american company, and so basically what he's saying is that us user data is going to be stored by default and currently is on us servers on u. s soil,

and that that that data is essentially under lock and key by an american company hosted by american employees. and so that is his main argument here with regard to the national security concerns the privacy concerns, however, the democratic ranking member of the committee said, just in response to those comments that he does not believe that that is going to go far enough now he did not explain why he thinks that storing us data on us servers is going to prevent is not going to prevent american data from being sold to the chinese or access to the chinese, for example, but there seems to be some kind of, you know, in this sense on this committee that tiktok is not going far enough to protect american user data and that it could pose a serious national security threat, given that ownership by the chinese by the chinese company bytedance. of course, he's still trying to alleviate those concerns, but it does not seem like lawmakers. right now, anyway, are black. they don't they don't seem to be

at all words out of the chair. cathy mcmorris rodgers. mouth was basically we think tiktok should be banned in the united states and the ranking member of the committee democrat and there was bipartisan agreement here largely basically said to the to the tiktok chair, you know, shout you. i don't believe you. i don't believe you that there's this firewall. i don't believe the promises you're making. that's a tough place for tiktok to be natasha. it is because they also didn't explain why right? and so the tiktok ceo here is trying to explain that they have taken all of these steps to try to alleviate these concerns about the national security risk posed by tiktok saying, look, we have moved all of this user data to u. s soil. essentially, what more do you want? well, it turns out that federal officials want bite dance to sell its stake and tiktok. so there is a complete kind of divorce between any chinese entity and tiktok itself . now it is unclear whether that's going to happen. but look , he was also asked many questions about content,

moderation and regulation on tiktok and whether the content itself is being regulated to appease the chinese government and his answer to that was no. we are not removing information about, for example, the massacre of the genocide of weaker in china. we are not removing information about tiananmen square. you can go and look on our platform right now, and you can see it. but the concern remains that as long as this chinese company has this stake in tiktok and is with parent company that it is going to pose a risk to americans, john and i think we know to john's point. we know exactly where these lawmakers stand because they were very clear from the get go and saying i mean, also we heard from from the chair to saying that it's just zero confidence that the company is not beholden by by tens by the chinese. honest part of going through a list of the executives their and their ties to the government in china, frank pallone, saying it's simply unacceptable on the project. texas doesn't go far enough. it will be interesting to see your point, natasha if there are some more pointed questions in terms of specifics. but also i think we know pretty

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scannell is outside of court. joining us live now with more the grandeur with me today, and i think this was not the expectation of what would be happening. so what more do we know about specifically what's not happening today, kara? thank you. we just going by. yeah. erica and john's. we know that the grand jury that has been hearing the evidence involving the investigation to trump's alleged role in hush money payments is meeting today. but as you said they will not be hearing any testimony related to the trump related probe that is not uncommon for a grand jury to hear multiple cases at once. but it does mean that the next time that this grand jury sits is monday, and that is when they it's possible they will hear more testimony. sources have told us that the offices considering bringing in another witness, and it's also the first time this grand jury if the manhattan district attorney alvin bragg decides to move forward with an indictment would be able to vote on that indictment. so it's going to be quiet down here the next couple of days, but then back on monday, we'll be back on grand

jury watch and looking to see if there is another witness. and if the jury if the decision is made to move forward, decides to vote that day, so a lot to watch and wait for and, um but i was quite right here right now. so as long as there is that weight, and we should note that alvin bragg in the grand jury may not think of it as a weight, they may just think of this as business as usual. the expectation that something would happen. maybe that was misplaced. but while there is this time period, the d a. he is firing back at these republican members of congress who have threatened to call him before them to testify about this. what's he now saying? yes so the d a s office, and they sent a letter to the house republicans that had asked him to come and testify in this letter. i mean, he's really pushing back saying that this is state territory. this is a local investigation. he says that this letter treads into territory very clearly reserved to the states, he says. this is an unprecedented inquiry into a pending local prosecution. he

also says that the proper place for this to be challenged it's donald trump is charged is in the courts, not through trump's allies in congress, so a pretty starkly worded letter pushing back but he does say, look, we will meet and confer with you and get to the bottom of what it is. the committee wants to look at, and he's saying he wants to offer the opportunity if they have a real legislative purpose and asking for information, but very strongly pushing back on this request from the house for him to come testify, saying where the state office prosecuting this step away, john erica. paris canal with the very latest for us. appreciate it. thank you. former us attorney michael moore joins us now. okay michael, what can be read into the timing of this? there were those that donald trump may have been the one who fanned the flames here, who said that? there could be an indictment earlier this week. that doesn't look like it's going to happen. they won't meet again. the grand jury on trump until monday. how do you read this? well i'm glad

to be with both of you. it looks to me like this just gives trump an extra few days to operate the cash register. he's using this to make money. he's using these threats to reach out to donors. he's already you know, cloaking himself in the as the martyr in the case, and so it's just more time. you know, there's nothing particularly unusual about a grand jury taken some period of time, and this may simply be a scheduling matter. this could be a witness that couldn't be available or a lawyer representing a witness that had another quart appearance and couldn't come today but could come next week. nothing nothing particularly odd in that, you know, i'm more concerned. more incidents sort of the leaks of when it may happen and how it may happen and what what they're considering. i think that plays into trump's hand a little bit, and i'd like to see it just sort of a everything on the on the quiet and then certainly that they're going to pop up with an indictment. let them do it. but again, nothing particularly odd about needing to reschedule, except that it does give more time for trump and his

representatives and his team. to continue to make this out. as if somehow, uh, you know, he's he's being victimized, and so he needs to be supported. he's just talking on the megaphone that has been handed and again to be clear. we have no idea despite what the former president has said there is no indication either way about whether charges will be fired, which is also filed rather which is an important which is an important reminder. let's let's move if we could to another legal issue involving the former president, so when we're looking at the classified documents probe here , the fact that a judge has now ordered has said yes. in fact, even corcoran you do the president's attorney. you do have two former presidents, attorney you have to testify tomorrow. now that attorney client privilege is waived here . this is by my understanding from every attorney that i have spoken to. in the last 24 36 hours. this rare is an understatement. in terms of how often this would happen. help us understand what would be what

would he be asked about at this point. does this mean all attorney client privilege is waived here or there very specific parameters as to what can be discussed with that testimony will be about well, it's it is extraordinary, and it's it places corporate in a very odd place. i mean, on the one hand, he's either got to come forward and say, i knew that this letter of representations that were made with false when i made it, that's bad on him or he's got to come forward and say, i didn't really know. i just did what i was told that also was bad on him. and so that's a he's in an odd spot. my guess is that the judge has got to keep the testimony fairly limited around those things that may affect obstruction. you know he won't be allowed to give testimony about things that happened years ago or advice you may have given to the former president some point unrelated to the documents case, but it will be limited in that way. because really, attorney client privileges so sacrosanct and there and there's great care by the courts to protect that great care by lawyers to do it. i do think the

documents case in the federal case to me is such a stronger case, especially, we're looking at what the special counsel is doing. um then this case in new york, and so i would hope and that sure do wish that the delay in new york was actually going to allow the special counsel to move forward. first. i hate to see a case that might not be the strongest case pending the case that makes the law and sets the tone for the rest of the cases around the country. you know, weak cases can make bad law. yeah for the for the remaining cases ever stronger cases. and so you know, we're we're kind of running a horse race to see which ones coming and i would suggest that the jack smith maybe the horse to ride in the race, polling our fence for prosecutors and former prosecutors in your career. how often was this attorney client privilege? did the judge say it could be pierced? almost never almost never. i mean, i've tried to think back over cases i was involved in and it's a rarity. i mean, there's a crime product section that allows this this type of testimony to come in.

but you you just don't see it and i think one of the problems is and you can tell from the states that have come out and just for the last few months, trump is a difficult client to control these different difficult clients to be able to say, this is how we need to do it. let me run the legal strategy. of course on nature input weight. you need your client to be 100% honest with you all the time. i tell you even the stuff it's bad to allow you to give them good legal advice on how to move forward. trump seems to want to sort of play all parts of this as if he's somehow the puppet master. not just of, you know the peace, political underlings, but also the lawyers involved in this case, the representative that just that's that's a recipe for failure. michael moore. always great to have you with us. appreciate your insight this morning. thank you. this hour. secretary of state antony blinken testifying on capitol hill, all this while facing a possible subpoena for documents related to the withdrawal from afghanistan. in 2021, those details ahead. when you have

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month contact homeserve before there's a problem. call 1 803 to 40163 or visit homeserve .com. good morning, everyone we do begin with breaking news this morning. happening now. secretary of state antony blinken testifying you see him here he sits back before the house foreign affairs committee. the focus challenges facing american diplomacy at the moment . committee aide says they may subpoena the state department for documents related to the binding ministrations withdrawal from afghanistan. international security correspondent kylie atwood is with us now. the

deadline for these documents was supposed to be five pm last night. so where do things stand? that's right. and as far as we know yesterday, according to a source familiar with the matter there were about 3000 pages of documents at the state department shared with congress with chairman mccall and his committee regarding the afghanistan withdrawal, but when it comes to the specific documents that mccall actually wants, only one of those sets of documents was actually shared. so essentially, what that means is that we're teed up right now for subpoenas to come from the committee to the secretary of state because essentially the documents that they have been specifically requesting over the period of the last few months, just having all been provided to the committee. so the three things that they're looking for our number one emergency evacuation plans from the embassy that has been provided to them. the other thing is the actual after action report that the state department did that looked at what they didn't do

well or lessons that they could have learned. from the withdrawal, the secretary of state said. they're going to be putting out that report next month in the coming weeks, but they still haven't provided to the committee. and then the third thing was this dissent cable that diplomats actually wrote to state department leadership before the evacuation , pleading with them to do more to prepare for the evacuation. that is also not a document that the committee has received. so we're in a situation here where it's going to be a legal battle between this committee and the state department. i think it's also important to note that as we're watching this testimony this morning, chairman and mccall actually introduced the mother in law of one of the service members who died during the withdrawal from afghanistan . in 2021. he talked about the fact that this woman is someone who still has questions, and so does the committee about how these u. s service members died , and he said that he and the rest of the committee are not going to rest until they get those answers. and until there is accountability for those who you know, were in charge of this withdrawal, which was obviously incredibly chaotic and deadly

guys yeah, absolutely. kylie really appreciate it. thank you. thanks to all of you for joining us this morning. i'm erica hill was great to be with you today. i'm john berman at this arrow with kate baldwin starts after a quick break. kennedy center presents the mark t twain prize for american humumor celebrating adamson. with special guests sunday at eight exclusively on cnn, wells fargo presenting sponsor of the kennedy center, mark twain prize if i just stare at these payll forms, business payroll taxes will calculate themselves, right? ah nope. quickbooks helps you manage your payroll taxes cheers with 100% accurate tax calculations guaranteed. think about the best night's sleep you've ever had a temper pedic were dedicated to helping you sleep like that every night. so you get the deep, comfortable, undisturbed

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