1 805 313504 or go online to gotham set .com. priscilla alvarez at the white house, and this is cnn. closed captioning is brought to you by audiobook network. others tell your story producing audio book with us to earn more profits and find a new audience for your published book produced an audiobook. we handle narration, production and digital distribution 38559. new developments and yet another legal case against former president trump. a federal judge tonight rejected trump's effort to throw out a defamation claim brought by writer e. jean carroll related to comments he

made in october ridiculing her. the case is set to go to trial next month. well thank you so much for watching tonight. cnn tonight with alison camerata starts now. good evening, everyone. i'm alison camerata. welcome to cnn tonight. we're learning more about the latest deadly school shooting. we've gotten the body, the police body cam video. we're going to show that to you, and we're going to try to have a different conversation about guns with a longtime gun enthusiasts about what he thinks the solution could be plus another legal defeat for donald trump and a big win for special counsel jack smith, a federal judge ruling today that former vice president mike pence must testify to a grand jury. about what he what the then president told him leading up to january 6th. we're currently reviewing. but look, let me be clear. i have nothing to hide. well, obviously, this

would be historic, a former vice president forced to give what could be damaging testimony against the president. he served . what will it mean for the investigation and students protesting their commencement speaker parents complaining about what their children are taught? why are we suddenly so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable? we'll talk about that. but let's begin with the nashville shooting. i want to bring in my panel. we have dan harris, host of the mental health podcast 10% happier coleman hughes of the conversations with coleman podcast we have jennifer rogers, former assistant u. s attorney of the southern district of new york and the los angeles times. ella granderson. so here's what we have learned today. let me bring everybody up to speed. police say the 28 year old who killed three children and three adults at a school in nashville, bought seven guns legally and hid them at home. the shooter was also reportedly under a doctor's care for an emotional disorder. the shooter message to former classmate minutes before the attack, saying, quote something bad is about to happen

. some people say the problem here is not guns. it's mental health. so what's the solution? we're going to talk about all of that with our panel, but first i want to bring in firearms safety advisor and safety expert and gun enthusiast steve wolf. steve great to see you as always. i'm sorry that it's always i always call upon you during these horrible tragedies, but i do like to talk to you as somebody who for so many decades has been a gun enthusiast taught me. the safety of guns on one of my shoots, so i always like, um, relying on you. this shooter steve bought the guns legally. okay seven guns, which suggests to some people that we need better. and more specific laws to keep guns out of the hands of mentally unhinged people. i know you think that the new laws would not make a difference. how can that be? steve? well murder is already illegal. taking guns into school is already illegal. there's nothing that the nashville shooter or any other shooter has done that's not already covered by one or more laws. hold on. let me just

interrupt you there because they don't have red flag, but they don't have red flag laws in in this state. so wouldn't that have helped? if i mean, then the shooter wouldn't have been able to get a gun had there been red flag laws. the shooter would not have been able to get a gun if there had been a red flag law and if people had called in their tips, um and as well as you know, ignoring the fact that people can buy guns other than from gun stores, and they can avoid the next check entirely. but yes, having the red fly flag laws as well as having people make the call like they say in new york city, if you see something, say something, so in other words, new laws would have helped in that in that situation, but one more thing i want to ask you about steve because this is what i don't understand why we don't talk more about the point of purchase . why do we let gun sellers off the hook? i think rather easily . can't they be? i mean, in other words, should they be perhaps, uh, asking a few screening questions to try to determine you know who they

should be selling lethal weapons to lot of what they ask a lot of questions on the firearms purchase sale. but the problem is that they're asking those questions of a person who might be lying or might be mentally unstable. so this is why you have the next check system and the red flag system is that other people can weigh in and then through due process, someone can lose their right to purchase a gun. lawfully explain that to me, steve. so just explain that to me what kinds of questions are gun people who want to buy guns? what are they asked? they're asked. are you a fugitive from justice? are you illegal alien where you discharged from the military under dishonorable circumstances . are you an unlawful user of drugs, so a lot of these things are covered. but of course, if someone has criminal intent or is mentally ill, they're obviously going to lie on this form. and there's only so far that a gun dealer can go like asking car dealer you know, to ask people what their drinking

habits are before they're allowed to purchase an automobile. sort of accept that look too. lisa asks. did you pack your bags yourself? and sometimes they say, are you carrying explosives? and sometimes they do at some airports they do, and they're allowed to do that. and sometimes guess what they find people who say actually, no, i didn't or yeah, maybe i did forget to lie left something in my bag. sometimes that happens, but would you be? well, let me ask you this, steve, would you object to a question of in addition to all of those you just laid out? are you depressed? have you considered hurting yourself in the past 30 days yourself or anyone else would that be? would those be good questions? those are fine screening questions if people would answer them, honestly, but you'll get more honest answers from people who know that person and then call the authorities and let them know that this person is exhibited some unstable behavior or has expressed harm towards others or or self harm. the people in their lives are more likely to give honest answers and to report to the authorities than the individual themselves would do. if what in your mind is the

solution here? well in my mind, the solution is based on the idea that anyone who proposes something that's going to be objected to by the other half of the country isn't going to get legislation passed, so we should really focus on the things that we could all agree on. i believe that we could all agree that we'd like to see less of these insane shootings. well, we could all agree that mentally ill people shouldn't have access to firearms. and i think we could all agree that people who own firearms should store them responsibly, so they're not accessible to children or mentally ill people. if we start there and add red flag laws. i think these are things that we could all agree on, and that therefore, legislation could get past but i think if we talk about banning some particular type of gun or magazine capacities are all these other things were going to get a lot of friction, and there's gonna be no forward progress. the way we've seen for the last 15 years. well, i like what you're saying, except that only 19 states have red flag loss. so why isn't that universal? why nationally? haven't we all

settled on that? so i think that these should be federally mandated and federally subsidized because one of the reasons that states often object to legislation is because washington is telling them what to do, but not telling them how to pay for it. so if, as a nation we value the idea of a red flag law than the federal government should mandated, and then they should absorb the costs of implementing it, as well as maintaining national tip lines so that people who are mentally or emotionally unstable get the help they need and all that, so i think it's really sad. that so many people are, you know, suffering from mental illness in this country, and yet we pay them no attention until they represent a violent threat to someone else. but if they're suffering on their own, nobody gives a crap. well i mean, look , obviously we have a mental health crisis for sure. but this person was under a doctor's care . i don't know exactly what that meant. but that's what we've learned today. but steve wolf always great to talk to you. i really appreciate your perspective. thanks so much for

coming on signature for having me on tonight. want to bring in my panel right now? l z your thoughts? yeah i wanted to ask steve because i was soon as he said, this remark. i was just like, what are you talking about ? and that's the merchant code, which is something that just developed recently within the banking world. when you go back and you look at the patriot act , one of the things that requires banks to do is to keep track of your purchases. and if you make any purchases that are sort of unusual, or if you're doing this sort of money learning to terrorist organizations, you would be flagged as a federal law that's already in place the gun industry for some reason, i'm not going to accuse him of doing it purposefully, but for some reason they were able to avoid having a gun merchant code for years. after 9 11. somebody were to buy seven guns within the space of a month. it should be flagged exactly, and that's already through the patriot act. so what steve is talking about? it's unnecessary because it's already something in place that's already been passed through congress and signed into law that if we were actually you

utilize, um would have flagged those seven purchases because they would have been unusual. but the gun industry has worked really hard not to have a much a gun merchant code. they just got one assigned and there's several gop attorney. generals who are not trying to fight that, with the biden administrators saying , this is unconstitutional. jennifer you are a lawyer here. any thoughts on that? well, i mean, the thing that disturbs me about all of this. it's not just that the nra controls the lawmakers, so they won't pass background checks and other you know, put in the right merchant code and do all those things. they also passed legislation that thwarts people from suing gun manufacturers. so the way you would normally see this taken care of in society is that people would sue like crazy right. they would start killing them in the pocketbook. and then everyone would change their tune. but that can't happen here because they've been so good about giving money to the politicians to get legislation through the basically completely stops all of these, although somehow the newtown parents found a loophole. they sued remington and somehow, and i just need more information on what happened, but somehow they found a loophole and i know that

was seen as unprecedented and a huge success for them. but not everybody has been able to do that. i think i would need to look into this more, but i think it has to do with the manufacturer of where the gun is manufactured. if you sue in a place where there's gun manufacturers are not good manufacturers. it's a different standard. and most states, you know they're they're different. different both of these are great suggestions. i mean, again, if we're looking for solutions and trying not to have the same circular conversation that we had after every one of these tragedies. you know, i try to find solutions. i feel like we're already naming some but somehow common. this alludes capitol hill. yeah, well, i think part of the problem is that democrats have been misled into thinking an assault weapons ban is going to be the cure all here but the but the truth is even a handgun can do this kind of damage right? so the problem is mentally ill people being able to get a gun of any kind, right? it's easier to get a gun, then to get a driver's license in some states, and that seems backwards to me, right. you should. there should be mental health checks. there should be character references, and that's the path forward, not the assault weapons ban. yeah just

you know, i look at this story, and i think a little bit about how do we as human beings and consumers of the news survived this continuous parade of horribles these continuous parade of murders that are playing out with the most vulnerable people in our society . and you know, i think there's a temptation to lapse back into rage or fear or helplessness or apathy, but i would recommend and i'm going to get a little meditative on you all. now that we lapse back instead. to compassion. because i think that is the attitude, the attitude of feeling people's feelings of empathy and then having the desire to help on top of it. that's the attitude from which we can achieve solutions. compassion for the shooter. fashion for everybody. i wouldn't start with the shooter because that's very hard, but definitely compassion for the people who are suffering right now. yes and i think that we do i mean, it's very, very hard to think about the parents and think about that moment where their kids they're not going to

be reunited with their kids, and we see it time and again and it's so painful to go there that i think that a lot of us just can't even imagine. try try to avoid imagine here's what i do when i find myself scrolling by these stories, and i feel the temptation. to numb out because it's there, but it's just i'm a parent. it's hard to take this in. i was one of the first reporters on the ground in newtown. i've covered a lot of these shootings. i try to stop. look at the picture and in my head silently send the wish for whoever suffering to be at least have an alleviation or reduction in that suffering, and that is a training that science shows is successful that you can train your brain to or compassion instead of overwhelmed and fear and rage. and how do you want to act? because we should take action. this isn't about thoughts and prayers. but do you want your action to come out of a place of rage or fear, resignation or out of a desire to help? that's beautiful? thank you all very much for all those perspectives. stick around everyone when we come back. have

you noticed that people seem to be really uncomfortable with being uncomfortable? whether the argument is about d e i and the workplace or who speaks at a school commencement on a college campus or what movie plays in classroom. we don't know how to tolerate discomfort. we're gonna discuss that next. when you're the leader, disaster cleanup and restorationn. how do you makake like it never even happened happen. fire it up, randy. being prepared for anything. whatever comes your way. there's a program that serve proike it never even happened. tentative. didn't get that funny. you need a hug. y also need consumer self get the exa same coverage

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look. that was disney's 1998 film about the life of civil rights icon ruby bridges. she was just six years old and in first grade when she made her way through that hateful crowd. the movie has been shown in florida classrooms for years, but is now under review after one florida parent filed a complaint, saying that the movie could teach children that white people hate black people. this trend is happening from elementary schools to college campuses to the workplace. when did we all get so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable and can we legislate and protest protest away discomfort? i'm back now with my panel. okay so coleman, this is interesting. i think this is an interesting case. let's start with elementary schools before we get to college campuses in the workplace, so that's where we bridges that that movie had been shown in

these classrooms in florida for years, and what's interesting to me is that the school had sent out permission slips two weeks earlier to the parents because it's a pg movie, and i think it could be a little heavy for some second graders. frankly so they sent permission slips and each parent had to sign it. and say whether or not their kid could watch it to parents didn't sign it. 60 did, too, didn't and that's their prerogative. that's fine. what where i think the problem comes in. is that one of the people who signed the who didn't sign the permission slip who didn't want her child to see it because she feared that it could teach that white people hate black people. then. doesn't want the school to show it. right? so how are we to address that? look she has every right to pull her kid out of class. her reason doesn't make sense, given american history because that is a historically accurate portrayal of the way white southerners at that time you buy second graders. here's the here's the thing about that if you if you drop the f bomb and in the movie that's pg 13 movie that drops the n word twice, is

somehow pg saying the f word is not as bad as the n word. that's a bit of a strange double standard there and, and that's that that was actually the other parents complained. the other parents said movie is fine. it should just be showed to eighth graders because this you know this has profanity and has threats of violence. i think that's a reasonable take. then your thoughts. i have no comment on the specifics of this, but i do want to say a word for open mindedness generally, because i think what we're seeing here is a little bit of across the board in many of the cases that we're going to discuss tonight are as you said, a refusal or lack of desire to be uncomfortable, and the studies show that people with an open mind are more resistant to depression and anxiety have higher life satisfaction. and there was one study of american presidents that showed the single biggest terminus of a successful presidency is a president who is open to new ideas. so i think if you just use that as a framework for moving through the world, you are likely to be more successful as the great ian

bremmer, the international relations expert, said on twitter. if you're only following people on this site who you agree with, you're doing it wrong. thank you for all of that, because we're certainly in that place. that's the place we've come to. so do you want to talk about ruby bridges? and you want to talk about on the college campus? listen, how old was she? so the studio so she was six. okay so ruby herself was six and in first grade, and this is about second graders. your student. if your child is six years old, they can find out about ruby bridges. why because she experienced it. she lived it . she survived it. so stop being so fragile. and allow yourself to find out what the history actually was. because there was a little black girl that actually had experience the history in real time where as your children get to do in the safety of the classroom and educate themselves without having grown up to yell at them and spit at them and call them horrific names. that's my feelings on it. okay, let's talk about what's going on college campuses. so right now at jim george mason university the commencement speaker speaker has been announced and its governor , glenn duncan, who is the governor of that state. many

governors of virginia have been invited to be the commencement speaker at george mason, but there are 6700 signatures from students who don't want him to come because they don't like what he stands for now, part of me, says. college because they're gonna protest that's their job. but he is the governor. maybe they could protest at the polls or they could protest in a different way and not say they don't want to hear what he stands for. you know, it's interesting because on the one hand you feel like it's their commencement speaker . you want to have some voice in that, maybe i mean, if you don't want it, send the note to the administration and they'll make a decision if he comes sit and listen. you can hold a sign or whatever. if you protest too loudly, then you're in the situation of the stanford law. incident with judge kyle duncan of the fifth circuit where the students went really got very loud and chaotic, uh, protesting him and, you know, listen. this is not a first amendment issue.

these are private universities. no one has a right to go in there and say what they want to say. protesters don't have a first amendment right to be loud and chaotic and disruptive. um it's more an issue about college and law school being about being open to ideas and having a marketplace of ideas, a place where you can listen to people from the other side. ask pointed questions if you want disagree if you want hold up a sign, but, you know, let's let's at least hear some voices that are different from our own. sometimes though, i will say that the discomfort isn't because you don't want to be uncomfortable is because you're tired of being silent. so i think it's important that we don't have this conversation with a broad brush and just say everyone's uncomfortable. sometimes the uprising is because we've been signing for too long, and we're not going to do it anymore. so it's not unconfident unconfident in terms of i don't feel good about myself is i'm uncomfortable because i no longer want this untruth to go untouched and in fact, with the students take on is the reason that they're protesting him. selecting a speaker that has passed anti

trans legislation promoted the abolishment of racial equity curriculum and restricted the ability of literature and public schools is an intentional target towards historically marginalized communities. look i think we've been seeing this kind of thing on campuses for the past 10 years and the you know the problem is you know it used to be normal for a democrat to be married to a republican. you wouldn't even comment on it. now you see people's tinder bios. they won't even go on a first date with someone on the other side. you know, they're they're having interactions with strangers on social media, but they're not really hanging out with people as much as we used to in real life, and therefore the younger generation has not to the same extent acquired the skills and habits necessary to really have a pointed but respectful disagreement and tell someone why they are wrong. right. we weave these skills are atrophying by under use. and that's why you see people just expressing raw anger without the ability or inclination to go up there and ask him the pointed questions if you have disagreements and then to the

workplace example and this is in montana, they have basically passed legislation that for, um d i training any d i training for any public employees is prohibited. that would make them feel quote, guilt, anguish or other forms of psychological distress. where can i go to get my distress legislated away? why doesn't my state have this? you just tell the truth and just say you don't want to be uncomfortable finding out the real history about how this country started to feel bad. you don't want to feel bad and i get it. no one wants to feel bad. but you know when i feel the worst when i don't know what the hell i'm talking about. wouldn't it be better for our electorate if it was informed before we actually went to the polls instead of just being guided by emotions that are based upon anything other than anecdotal fears? people are responding to a real issue, though, right? i don't think the law is the right way to deal with this, but there's a trend of people going into their workplaces and being

told by people like best selling author robin d'angelo. that um, you know, white people shouldn't cry around black people because we're so fragile or all of these insane, hyper progressive notions about race that make race, you know, subsume everything in a person's identity, and they want some way to fight back against that without being the next person that's canceled online for being a racist, so they reach for these laws that i think are ineffective. hard to define and end up being too broad. but there's a real cultural problem . problem of like these. d i fake d i experts going into the workplace and telling you that you're a racist based on nothing . and what do you think the answer is? the answer is for us to have really open and honest conversations that are not based in bullying but are based in some of the maybe the practices that someone like a dan harris might. promote and to have to be able to have these honest conversations in a tone that is not simply demarcating typical people as good versus evil. can't you see, though? how if you're too respectful of the

good versus evil that you end up sanitizing what actually happened? i mean, sometimes you just have to sit there and take it. because there was a lot of openness here that happened. there's a lot of infrastructure that was built around the ugliness and trying to avoid people being upset or feeling guilty about the ugliness doesn't help us get past the ugliness and, more importantly, doesn't help us resolve the issues that that ugliness cost and it's still being prevalent today. we're talking about history. i agree with you if we're talking about a d i seminar at my you know, corporate america job. i don't know that that's the venue for you know, my racial identity and its meaning throughout all of american history to be sort of cast on companies never had a person of color in a leadership position. you think that's an accident? or what if that company never had a female imposition of leadership? you think that's an accident history ? how does it help to blame? all of the male said inform. okay, but what a lot of these d i don't doubt you would do a good

job. but a lot of these a lot of these d i experts. they're not informing they are, you know, it's like richard carranza in new york city is like white supremacy. culture is about worship of the written word and all of this. insane and objectivity is a white thing. all of this insane things that the radical d i people have been pushing and people really reject this, but they're afraid to talk about it. i think you're fast. you're both fascinating, fascinating on something that i think is really interesting, which is there does feel to be a blame component. that's where people are trying to resist, whereas something's happened organically when you learn and sometimes you have to force the issue. and so we just have not figured out that balance yet, but thank you all very much for that conversation. meanwhile former vice president mike pence ordered to testify to a grand jury about his conversations with then president trump leading up to january. 6th what's mike pence's next move? that's next. at the end of the age, i'm m afraid i feel is rigt upon us. this is considered a

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654654 ask about the bosley guarantee texting crowd 654654. good morning, everyone we do begin with breaking news this morning. cousin grand. that's right. that's great. a federal judge ordering former vice president mike pence to testify about conversations he had with president trump in the lead up

to the insurrection back with dan coleman, jennifer and l. z okay, let's listen to what mike pence said on cable news today about what he's going to do next. well we're we're evaluating the court's decision , how they sorted that out, and what other testimony might be required? we're currently reviewing but look, let me be clear. i have nothing to hide. i have a constitution to uphold upheld the constitution on january 6th. we're currently speaking to our attorneys about other proper way forward, and as i said, we'll have a decision in the coming days. so, jennifer what are his options now? so his options are to go ahead and go in and testify as he's been ordered to do. we don't know the exact parameters of what the judge told him. he could hold back, but he certainly can go in and testify about a lot of it or he can appeal. so it was trump's lawsuit. that was the executive privilege. one his pieces, the

speech and debate clause issue, which just covers his actions as president of the senate when he was overseeing so he doesn't have have to tell the january 6th grand jury anything about january 6th. if it relates to his role as presiding over the senate in the certification siding over, i think so, but it's not entirely clear and what likely is actually going to happen here, alison when it's all said and done, he's actually sitting in the grand jury. he may refuse to answer a question and they literally will get judge boasberg on the phone to sort through whether that's a legitimate vocation or not. i mean, it can go question by question. even was that right? so he why can't he just stepped through the fat? well he can plead the fifth if he thinks he has criminal exposure himself, but that both suggest that he thinks he has criminal exposure, and they might question it. they might say you don't so it's not a proper invocation of the fifth or we're giving you immunity. so you have to testify. what do you think that they want out of him? and what will this be? um, an effective exercise. i have never seen a person blow so many

uncontested layups before his life as much as mike pence, meaning meaning he's been positioned so many times, and it's just like it's easy. just do this, and you will be celebrated just to this and you will be viewed in a higher light . and he never does it because there's a piece of him that can't let go either of the trump base or trump himself. i don't know why he's doing the humming and hiring of, well, we got to check and see. and there was to tell the truth. if you have nothing to hide, then just tell the truth. you wrote the book. you've gone on tour. you're making these comments about trump made his comments. comments about secretary buddhist is trying to get attention. you're trying to run for president here is your freaking moment. and you're up there still. oh i don't know. we got to go to see i gotta protect the constitution. but you know, i don't know. it's like, dude, make up your mind. gentlemen saying he's bad at basketball, so many blown layoffs march madness. so i figured something else. right fair enough.

jennifer, i asked you this in the break. what what more can he add? we know from other people have testified. i believe that there was a pressure campaign on him to overturn the results of the election. so if he's on the stand, what is he add beyond just saying that's true. well there's at least one conversation we know about that was between the two of them that no one else heard both sides of correct so that conversation we haven't heard about special counsel hasn't heard about and listen, you're entitled to the actual content. i mean, it's not enough to just say we know that mike pence was pressured by former president trump. we need to know what was said the jury is entitled to hear what was said. i mean, you can call him as a witness and subpoena and according testify he has no legitimate basis to refuse to testify in that situation. common thought. i have another question for the legal expert. like what different kind of threats could he have made in that phone call, which would have actual implications, like one level of threat may have one implication and a lesser level of threat. like what rides on the contents of that private phone call. well it depends on

what they're trying to prove so if they ultimately charged the former president with a crime, we'll see what they charge if they charge him with, um, trying to overturn the election, those sorts of offenses you need to know that he intended to do that. and he knowingly did that. so if they talked about listen, i know i didn't have the votes. i know i lost. but you are the one who can help me. turn this around. you're the one who can make me succeed in stealing this election. mike pence. that's pretty good knowledge and intent. evidence. but you know how trump speaks. it's i know you're gonna do the right thing, mike. does that rise to the level of proving something elicit that testimony and then you have folks explain how he speaks to the jury, and you have people come in and say this is how he speaks, and this is what he means when he says that in all of my experience with him, you can make that happen. you can definitely explain how people talk and what it means and mike pence's maybe someone who could do that for the jury, but first you have to get the actual content of what was said, and that's why they're trying to get my three investigations that are going on right now. january 6th, georgia stormy, which one

poses the most uh, danger and threat to the former president. the one that you didn't mention, which is the classified government documents investigation, and that's also but that's wrapped up in january. 6th right. separate investigation also being done by jack smith, but completely separate charges separate fact separate everything that to me is the one and the fact that classified documents were found at the current president's house doesn't doesn't reduce the threat there, so there's been a separate special counsel appointed to take a look at that one. but it doesn't seem to me with the number of documents that were found the intentionality that's been shown on the fact that he cooperated from the get go that that is likely to be charged, although i guess we'll see trump's in a whole different boat. disagree with you quickly. i think the stormy daniels one is more dangerous. because she called him tiny god right to the core. just were excited to get that in there. just telling you. yeah that's right. great questions, guys. thank you. that was excellent. thanks so much,

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or go online to gotham set .com. i'm jessica schneider at the supreme court, and this is cnn. a maryland appellate court reinstating the murder conviction of adnan syed, the subject of a wildly popular serial podcast. this is just the latest turn in a tragic saga dating back more than 20 years in 1999, sides. 18 year old ex girlfriend commonly was found strangled and buried in a baltimore park authorities arrested then 17 year old side for the murder, but he maintained his innocence. the following year, a jury found guilty and sentenced him to life in prison. 14 years later, the

serial podcast brought widespread attention to the case. for the last year i've spent the case was like a shakespearean mashup young lovers from different worlds, thwarting their family's secret assignations, jealousy, suspicion and honorable merged the villain, not a more exactly but a muslim. all the same. and a final act of murderous revenge. two years later, and 2016, a judge granted side and new trial, then last september after serving more than 20 years in prison, a baltimore judge vacated syed's conviction. but today, six months after side walked free, and maryland appellate court reinstated his murder conviction, saying that the lower court violated the rights of victim heyman, lee's brother. out before i attend a key hearing in person. my panel is back, huh? jennifer why does adnan syed have to pay the price for a prosecutor's technical mistake or the courts? checking

mistake? why is he suddenly guilty of murder again? so he probably is not a lot of states have laws that are very protective of victimsfamilies rights to be present for proceedings to be notified about what's going on in the case. maryland does as well that brothers should have been notified sooner so that he could get to the hearing with the appellate court has said, is that they need to do the hearing again. um, the judge will be the same. the facts are the same. presumably the judge will reach the same results. but the victim's brother can now be there. so likely. it's just a redo with the same result. okay, so not another trial, just the very same hearing with the same judge who decided to vacate the guilty conviction. that's right and side could appeal. i mean, he could appeal this rule. owing to the higher court, saying we don't need to redo it. and then the highest court in maryland could consider that issue. dan i turned to you talk about mindfulness and how you live with 20 years of your life lost convicted of something that now they've decided you were not

guilty of when i've interviewed people who were wrongly convicted and spent decades in prison. the refrain i often hear from these folks is if you get into anger mode i'll never get out and so you really have to be incredibly diligent and vigilant about your mind. states and i have not interviewed inside, but i would imagine, or i hope for his sake that he's able to stay out of the anger. it seems like it because when he was released , he seemed to be generous of spirit. gracious happy, you know , not railing against the system , and i think the podcast revisited him. i think you're a couple once he was in prison, and he was still sort of more sanguine. i always thought then. i would have been able to be, but that it's just an incredible story and the fact that he's still going through this. it's just heartbreaking. i'm going to assume, um, because it tends to happen a lot, but faith is helping to anchor him emotionally and spiritually as well. um i just think that it's

just so heartbreaking that he's being re traumatized and a lot of ways because even though it's not a new trial is still everything is being talked about again. he's been reminded again . 20 years the ex girlfriend. whatever happened to him in prison during those 20 years that obviously may have changed him and his perspective about life in a lot of ways. it's heartbreaking to think because of this mistake, he is gonna have to go through this again, in addition to the victim's family, yes, and of course, we do have to talk about the victim humanly because i applaud the court for wanting her family to be there and for victims rights that is a huge step forward for victims who have often felt sort of shunted assad in these cases. but they made a mistake by not having her brother here and i guess i hope that he's satisfied now by being physically present at this hearing. sure and it looks like this may be more of a formality than something that will actually tip the case in the other way, but i think one thing to note here is the power of podcast to actually influence real life. right podcasts have

been viewed in the past as sort of the ugly stepsister of television and cable news, frankly, but look, look at the power that true crime podcast, which are enormously popular, especially among women, as it turns out, um, to actually influence real life events. i mean, common does have a podcast . so it's maybe slightly biased . thank you, lz, and so do i have a podcast. okay, well, jennifer and i are feeling very left out to start one now. yes, we are left out. fantastic thank you for that. all right. meanwhile do you need more sleep ? if so, we're about to share the secrets to napping. and what the bedroom should really be used for. that's next. you're doing business in an app driven multii cloud world. that's why you choose vm ware with flexible multi cloud services that enable digital innovation and

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okay so let's say you did not get the recommended 7 to 8 hours of sleep, and you're starting to feel a little groggy. will a nap help our friends at the new york times? asked an expert that question and the answer is yes, it will up your energy, but it will not negate the other health downsides of not sleeping enough . oh, and do not take a three hour long nap, dan. try and limit your naps to 20 to 30 minutes. okay, so let's bring in my panel. how many of you get eight hours of sleep? sometimes mostly how much between six and seven. that's not enough. many of you many of you are nappers. yeah okay. so, dan, what are the secrets to now? you were a morning show anchor like i was a morning show accurate. it is really arduous were the reason i don't do it anymore. to me, too. it was really, really physically

demanding. so what are your secrets to napping and sleep? napping is great. i mean, but but there are some people like if you have insomnia, as i actually sometimes do. for some people, as i understand it, napping is perhaps something you should be careful about because it can interrupt that evening. sleep so you do want to be careful. you want to listen to your body. some people can really get a lot of a nap. some people, it's trickier. other tips you want other tips. tips first sleep, sleeping. a bunch of interviews on my podcast about about i have a podcast. comment about how to get a good night's sleep, and some of the good tips are keep the room cold and dark. use your bedroom just for sleeping or sex. thing else. really you know you you work out of your have a global bed quarters as i call it. apparently that's a bed do tons of work. it doesn't stop my sleeping your brain. okay so it works for you, but for most of us, you want your brain to know this as the place to sleep, not as the place to be awake and do

lots of other stuff. i'm working. yeah, but come on, okay. move on. what else? stop using your device is an hour or two before bedtime. ah had a consistent bedtime. and there's some disagreement on this because you can have a consistent bedtime or consistent. wake up time. some experts say one is more important than the other. but consistency seems to be important. try to get some sunlight early in the day, which is good for your body clock exercise is really helpful, especially cardio early in the day, and here's my other big tip , having spent quite a bit of time obsessing about sleep because everybody says it's the apex predator of healthy habits . obsessing about sleep is not great because it can stop you from cleveland. so i think you should take sleep seriously, but not too seriously. okay i don't do any of those things that you just said, and i'm a world class lever. but but l z. can you take any pointers from that and change and get more sleep? um maybe not using devices i like to read when i'm in bed. um typically, i use my device a kindle to do that. but i will

bring a book with me from time to time. i know the screen. the life in the screen can create this activity makes it harder to sleep. so i'm trying to get better about reading in bed actually having the paper in my hand, but i still use my device. but as far as like the other things i used to be the guy who would say i sleep when i'm dead. right like i'm hustling and grinding playing lamar and i'm just like i'm just gonna keep working. keep working. keep working. and then, like i turned 40. i was like, what the hell am i doing? sleeping you're dead. no sleeping. you're sleepy, right? good that's a very good start. that's a good transition. all right. thank you all very much. we'll be right back. whehn you're the leader in disaster, cleanup and restoration. how do you make like it? never even happened happened. let it rain, randi. ah! being prepared for anything. whatever comes your

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