beginning here, not the end. right yeah, i know. it is the beginning of the beginning, and that's the troubling part. erin is that there may be serious charges down the road like that. you know, there's this involving january 6th involving other things, but by the time we get to those, the american public will just be hearing white noise. it'll be just be, uh, you know, white noise to most of americans by that point in time, and that's that's a shame. all right, and that is the big question and again, we can confirm more than 30 counts are expected in this indictment, which is still currently under seal. and we understand that includes a former president himself has not yet seen these charges. thank you so much for joining us. our breaking news coverage continues right now with anderson and a c 3 60. good evening. no sitting or former president has ever been charged with the crime. until now, donald john trump has no

more for no former president has ever surrendered to authorities or been fingerprinted, photographed and arraigned soon. donald trump will be here in washington, d c. shockwaves are spreading from that manhattan grand juries surprise decision to indict the former president in connection with hush money payments to porn star and director stormy daniels here in new york, where the tremors began and from which donald trump first sprang to national attention nearly 50 years ago, authorities are preparing for his arrival. and what could potentially occur because of it. as you look at live pictures of trump tower right now, consider that the man who came down the escalator there almost eight years ago has already incited an attack on congress. and as you look at the courthouse, where he is expected to be arraigned considered, he's already verbally attacked. the district attorney alvin bragg. many times , including again tonight. consider also anderson that in addition to railing against alvin bragg, as he recently also did in waco, texas, mr trump is already fundraising on this indictment. so in one sense we

are on something of familiar ground here with an angry apparently cornered donald trump lashing out and also cashing in in another sense, of course, this is a whole new world for all of us, and the first sad words and a never before written chapter of american history tonight, we're gonna have the reaction from all corners. as it happens. this is very much a story just breaking in the hours ahead. we'll look at what it what is happening now. what happens next because this indictment and potentially other indictments unfold and what our legal and political team make up at all as we look there at the airport in west palm beach, where former president would be expected to depart likely next week. we have reporters on both ends of the former president's upcoming journey. cnn's caress canal is at the courthouse in lower manhattan. cnn's leyla santiago is near mar-a-lago gonna start with carrots canal in new york. what's the latest car of a legal basis? well, anderson as you said, this is an

unprecedented moment in u. s history of former president indicted bio manhattan grand jury and our sources tell us the grand jury voted at the end of the day today, so just before five p.m. they voted to move forward with this indictment has been widely anticipated of with the district attorney alvin bragg. move forward with this indictment. and now we're learning. this whole process is in secret, but we're learning that they did. and the d a s office confirming now, on the record that there is an indictment under seal. they say that they informed trump's attorneys earlier today that he had been indicted and that they are working on triggering out when the former president will appear in manhattan to face these charges in court. trump's attorneys tell us that he is likely to be arraigned next week. they're still working out because of the big security issues involved in that, but donald trump, although this is an extraordinary moment, and he is not a regular defendant, he will go through a lot of the same process that defendants do. he will be fingerprinted. he'll have his mug shot taken, and he will appear before a judge and be forced to enter. a plea. his

team is saying they're going to fight these charges. so we expect that plea to be a plea of not guilty and then he will be released. these are non violent crimes. so there's not an issue of bail in new york, with expected charges that he will face and we don't know what exactly these charges are. we do know that they have been investigating his alleged role in the hush money payments scheme. involving particularly stormy daniels. now one thing that prosecutors have been looking at was falsification of business records as a potential felony. we're going to be looking to see what these charges are, and you know one of the issues with the charges that we knew they were exploring is that there are an untested legal theory as the big charge in this case, so it's going to be a big question of what they have and what they're alleging. in this indictment once it is, until we do expect that indictment to be unsealed when he is arranged, so it may be several days before we know the specific charges here, but this is a big decision for the district attorney, alvin brad. you know he came into

office one year ago and he was widely criticized for not wanting to move forward indictment of former president trump related to the accuracy of the trump organization's financial statements. he shut down that grand jury that was investigating that case, he continued to work. he said he was going to speak. either with a statement saying they were declined any prosecution or through an indictment and then that his team had won a conviction of the trump organization at a tax fraud trial in the in december that seemed to really embolden the team. we saw this grand jury get underway in january, ultimately leading to this historic moment . anderson jake keira, is it clear to you how the former president will get to his arraignment? obviously it's a highly security area downtown. there's a lot of underground passages. for a defendant to go through is particularly somebody like the former president with the security concerns. right i mean, this is going to be a very secure area. they will be the secret service involved nypd

other court security officers and in this criminal court. here they are. there are underground tunnels. there are passageways and there is an otherwise pretty open area in front of the courthouse is a park, so there's a big open space. but it is an area that is in on a regular day has a lot of law enforcement around it. you know, there are other courthouses nearby. the fbi is around the corner so they can secure this area. but there are open vantage points so we would anticipate he will likely be brought in through one of these tunnels and then appear in court and then exited quickly without being out in the public . anderson paris canal thanks so much. let's go next to cnn's leyla santiago, who is near mar-a-lago in florida. what is the latest there, leila? that's right behind me, jake. that is it right there behind me. in the distance. you see, that is mar-a-lago and i gotta tell you, we're not seeing the type of presence of protesters that we have seen in the past year.

remember last week, president trump called for protests are team absolutely saw that here in the nearby bridge near mar-a-lago in august, when i was here almost immediately after that search warrant was executed . we saw protesters and we saw them it really showing their force really large flags and a lot of the maga sort of paraphernalia support for president trump after these big moments have happened in the past, not yet not to say that will not come, but really not seeing that at the level that we have seen it in the past, when he has had these big moments now we understand that he has been here in mar-a-lago over the last several days, or christian homes reported he has been meeting with advisors, but this is one that caught him off guard in terms of the timing, so that may play a role also why we don't see what we have seen in the past year. you know what this will look like in terms of any sort of surrender, as that is being coordinated, will have to

wait and see. but the law enforcement presence that we do see out here right now is mostly traffic control. local law law, local police who are making sure that folks don't park on the side of the road, as they typically do when we see these types of protests on the bridge, but again, not saying what we have seen in the past and still waiting to see what sort of mood movement. we can take note of here at mar-a-lago, jake, and it's important to remind people leila you when you referred to the search warrant. that was an entirely separate investigation that had to do with the classified documents investigation, one of several investigations into the former president. there's the classified documents investigation. at the by the special counsel jack smith. the january 6th investigation by jack smith. there is in floor in a in georgia and investigation into the president trying to overturn the results of the election that the fulton county district attorney as a grand jury about and then, of course, this case, not to mention some

civil cases as well. that's correct, really a lot to keep track of here but again whenever there have been headlines made with these various investigations here, we typically do see this sort of support for president trump from from his base, and we're not seeing that yet also should note that in terms of movement, i believe you may have showed it off the top of the show there. the plane still remains at the airport has been there since, really saturday when he returned from waco so lots to keep up with here. but in terms of what the mood is and what we're seeing in terms of changes or or support or protest against the president, because you see that here as well, really not seeing that at this hour. all right, leyla santiago right outside mar-a-lago. thank you so much joining us cnn senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, ali honing jessica

roth, also a former federal prosecutor. she currently teaches law here in manhattan. also cnn chief law enforcement intelligence analyst john miller , chief correspondent kaylin collins and van jones, cnn political commentator and former special adviser to president obama. john miller. understanding your obviously been following very closely. what have you learned? well, it was very interesting day today. what we were what we were. what we were understanding was that this grand jury was going to be hearing evidence on other matters outside the trump case, and then this afternoon at two o'clock of final witnesses brought in in the trump matter. that witness testified for about half an hour. that witness was we do not that witness testified for about half an hour. um and then the district attorney called for the charging documents with the more than 30 counts. um and then the grand jury took its vote. and that is the document that remains under seal. pending this surrender, so more than 30 counts. we don't

know what those counts are. well it all relates to the business fraud or the falsification of business documents. um and then the question is, what's going to be behind that, uh, if i stole your atm card that would be grand larceny, but they would charge a single account for every time i used it. so in a case like this, they presented to the grand jury every document everything that was signed every contract every everything. um and it's likely that they are citing each one of those as a count. in the overall charge. in terms of the security preparations, they are already underway. so um, just after the news of the indictment broke because the indictment itself has not yet been unsealed. publicly the nypd sent a citywide message to 36,000 police officers, saying all officers of all ranks and all commands, so that includes detectives, narcotics people, people working on terrorism. um

all have to show up in full uniform as of seven a.m. tomorrow and familiarize themselves with the disorder control patrol guide rules and so uniform. why everybody because it gives them the maximum option, which is if suddenly there are is a massive demonstration in one place or multiple demonstrations. they're able to mobilize units that are not normally in uniform and create the kind of large numbers anderson when you look at the challenges of january 6th you see the capitol police, you know , with 800 something people in the in the d. c. metro police with, you know, hundreds more, um, scale of the new york is going to be different. and that's where you can mobilize thousands of 1000 officers at the press of a button or thousands more if needed now. nobody is saying any of that is needed for right now. i think what they're anticipating is to have that option in case multiple, spontaneous demonstrations emerge or one

large one at the da's office, but i think they're getting ready for the idea that there's going to be a date, possibly as soon as next week, where former president trump is brought to new york city to be booked on these charges to face arraignment. um where a large crowd could gather. we've already heard from the former president from people around his attorneys, as well as a number of republicans in congress. nothing specific on him showing up or whatnot. we have been told in the days leading up to this when there was speculation looming that this indictment was coming that he would show up in new york. there would be no issues with that, that he would surrender himself. that's when we would see potentially a mug shot, he would be fingerprinted. they have been bracing for those logistics. but you are already seeing the former president way in. he is attacking elwood brag the manhattan district attorney here. unsurprisingly he has been delivering broadsides against him for weeks. now he's been going after him. he got to backpedal on some criticism that he had from over the weekend when there was a photo posted from a story trump posted of trump holding a baseball bat standing next to a picture of

elven brad, but he is still attacking him and trying to basically make this argument. that alvin bragg is politically motivated here and trump's allies have been going through past things that i would brag, has said or written to try to use those against him in the weeks ahead. george soros constantly is coming up with ron desantis and the former president because he is a large democratic donors. some of this indirectly was helping alvin bragg basically making that argument here, but of course, we know this is something that they've been working on for a long time. this is something that has been in the public eye for about seven years. now. we've been talking about it since we were covering trump and his first year at the white house when he was on a roll. first one when he initially denied knowing who made those payments, saying, ask my attorney, michael cohen. and so they were a little caught off guard tonight by this, they obviously knew that there was an idea this could come. but they have been kicking around this idea that maybe because of the delay in what we were saying we hadn't actually heard about an indictment. that may be the case is falling apart. okay clearly, that's not happening. they still have confidence that it will not

stand. but we'll see you just walk us through what actually will happen when he shows up what an arraignment happens. what happens at the arraignment at the arraignment? that is usually the moment when the indictment is unsealed, so that that's when we will all see that indictment publicly. there's a chance that it comes out before then because there may be motions made to the judge, perhaps by media organizations to unseal it earlier. that will be up to the judge. but that will be the moment we see the charges. the charges will be read to donald trump, who, by the way, will be sitting or standing at the defendant's table in the courtroom. it feels surreal, but this is the reality. he will enter a plea. he will plead certainly not guilty. the judge will ensure that donald trump has a lawyer and that it's a lawyer of his choosing. again. there won't be any issue with that he'll be able to certainly pay for his lawyer. the judge will then set bail. there's no way donald trump's going to be held here in prison pending these charges for violent offenses. sometimes people are but he will be what we call released on his own recognizance, meaning just you can go home. come back when we need you, and before that, he will be fingerprinted, and he

will have a mug shot taken and people a lot of people are wondering. are we going to see the mug shot? the answer under new york law is probably not because law varies here jurisdiction by jurisdiction. but in new york mug shots the law changed on this a few years ago. they're supposed to be private confidential unless there's a specific law enforcement need unless there's a fugitive or wanted situation. so you know things can leak but we should not under the law, see a mug shot and just big picture. it's really a remarkable moment . i mean, we've never been here before. it's been 230 plus years as a constitutional democracy. our system can handle this. our system. our legal system is not perfect. but it works. and so i know people have strong emotions either way, and indictment is the beginning of the process. nobody should jump to conclusions here. let's let the criminal justice system play out and again. jessica we have not seen the indictment. we don't know all the counts. we have not seen the indictment and i think the timing of this being returned and taking us also by surprise. i think it's a good

reminder that we should be humble about what we don't know. and so we're all anticipating that the charges are going to be based on falsification of business records. i think that's probably likely given the reporting. but maybe it will be something else or there'll be something else included as well. and we don't know if it charges a felony, meaning that the falsification was to conceal another crime. what that other crime is, and i think it's just a good reminder. take a step back and wait until we see the charges hard to imagine it not being a felony prosecution, though. i think that's fair to say just as a matter of prosecutorial discretion. they cannot bring 34 misdemeanor. they're allowed to bring 34 misdemeanors, but that would be preposterous. and john makes a really important point. the sheer number of charges does not necessarily equate with seriousness. prosecutors always have the option of breaking down charges. and so i suspect every single entry in those books is its own charge, nor is it unusual. we're going to have more from here in new york, jake reaction from lawmakers is coming in cnn's chief congressional correspondent manu raju joins us now mano tell us

what the responses are like. we are getting loads of reaction from republicans and some democrats as well and also some divisions within the top republican ranks. house republican leaders are rushing to defend donald trump, the speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy, issuing a statement saying that they plan to his words go after the quote, unprecedented abuse of power and hold. alvin bragg, the prosecutor. to account that has been echoed down the line as house republicans look to haul in bragg seek his testimony, demand documents demand he turn over documents even as they face accusations that doing so would interfere with an ongoing criminal investigation. but on the senate republican side is different. the leadership there . mitch mcconnell, the top republican leader, the number two republican john thune, both have been silent so far in the aftermath of this news, and, of course, mcconnell and trump include have a much different view of trump than mccarthy in his allies do and soon are eager to move past the trump era. kevin mccarthy has aligned himself with donald trump in credits him with winning the

speakership. on the democratic side. most democrats have either been mom or suggested that donald trump is not above the law. one democrat just weighed in a very important one. chuck schumer, the senate majority leader, saying that there's investigation should be and these charges should be. quote out. there should be no political influence, no outside political influence, a sign that he is pushing back against the house gop efforts to intervene in this in this case now i did also reach out to matt gates was one of donald trump's closest allies and asked him about whether he spoke with donald trump. tonight he did, and he said that donald trump was in his words, quote. fierce fierce and focus on this historic night. so jake, you're seeing trump's defenders on capitol hill rushed to his defense, but also some of donald trump's critics in the senate gop staying away from this so far interesting. manu raju. thank you so much with me here in studio laura coates, cnn egg anchor and former federal prosecutor, cnn senior law enforcement analyst and former fbi deputy director. andrew mccabe, cnn special

correspondent jamie gangel, cnn senior political analyst gloria borger and cnn senior political correspondent abby. phillip uh, andy mccabe. let me let me start with you because there's an interesting comment from governor desantis, who said that he is not going to cooperate with any, um any any requests that might come to bring donald trump from florida to new york. is that even a thing? would there be an extradition request from new york to florida? i put it at about one in a million, but basically what happens in in high profile typically white collar cases non violent cases, defendants are given the opportunity to surrender at the office of the law enforcement entity involved here. that's of course, the manhattan d a s office. they get processed and then they get taken into court to be arranged process. what does that mean? price process basically means you're photographed your fingerprinted and of course, fingerprints are electronic. now you don't roll people's hands with ink anymore. and you're you have to give biographical information. so they fill out things like your

height and weight and whether or not you have tattoos and things like that, identifying, uh, marks that may be on you all that information is put into the system and then you're taking in and presented in court in the way that ellie described a few minutes ago. now if you have been indicted and you are outside the jurisdiction, you are subject to arrest in the whatever jurisdiction you're physically located in. so typically if this were a, you know, garden variety, violent criminal new york would communicate with, let's say, florida and say, we think he's at this location and deputies would go out and arrest that person, and he would then be processed and arraigned in florida and then extradited to new york. uh that's unlikely to have said something about that. we're in touch with his his attorneys to negotiate his surrender, as it were. i mean, that's not the language you use. but but that's exactly what it is now, uh, prosecutors typically will not have that conversation with the defendant's attorneys until after they have the indictment in hand. and that seems to be

exactly what happened. in this case. they'll call up and say your client has been indicted. let's agree to a time and place that he'll come into our office and self surrender, but they need not hand over that indictment to the to the actual defense. and it yet it's likely still under ceiling, meaning he hasn't actually have a copy of it, donald trump. but remember the indictment, then the extradition the constitution requires. interesting extradition. the role of a governor is largely a ministerial. it's not intended to try to do anything besides look to see that the document is actually authenticated. there was actually an indictment there , but he can slow walk it. florida law does allow him to have somebody who's office of legal affairs. look over it, figure out and do a report of some kind or investigative figure out. if it's a sound indictment, that might be one tactic not to assist or you could actually delegate right to do that, ron desantis. gate to someone to say, look into this issue for me, as in kick this can down the proverbial road as long as i can get physical cover, or they can also say, listen, i want somebody else to

sign off on that way. i have the cover. but the idea that there is already conversation as you're saying about surrendering likely will not happen to that point, but that is a tactic that can be used by the former president just had from a political perspective, though this seems clearly to me to be governor desantis playing to his perhaps future. uh presidential ambitions. donald trump does not want to hide out in mar-a-lago in florida. he's going to new york. he is. he has made it clear not only that he's going to new york, but he doesn't want to hide. he doesn't want to go to some other location that was made clear to us a couple of weeks ago, so you know, this is the last person he wants to go to for shelter and protection would be ron desantis don jr is . it was insulting ron desantis earlier tonight get donald trump has been insulting ron desantis for the last few weeks now

ron desantis needs donald trump's people so whether he would do something to benefit his enemy because he wants his enemies. legions right is you know remains to be seen. but it seems as jamie is saying, you know, completely calculate. let's take a step back for a second, especially from the 2024 politics. this is a never happened before in the history of this republic. it has never happened. a former president of the united states has been indicted now. that doesn't mean that there aren't former presidents that should have been indicted for various crimes. but this alvin bragg is doing something very risky, very bold and. i know that his critics will say very foolhardy but and historic in nature to your point, but this is also a former president, who has also been impeached twice. so i mean trump is really taking off a lot of historic firsts and none of them in a good way. and this is part of the problem is that i think that one of the tactics trump

has often used is, uh you know, just making people so accustomed to the extraordinary and the really, really, frankly the crazy and how just far. in front of the line that he goes on everything that you become numb to the fact that what he's doing is historic in a bad way. and i think that an indictment of any kind no other president has gotten to this point. and you can say what you want about the merits of this case. i don't think we really know the degree to which it is a good or a bad case. but no other president has gotten to a point where a prosecutor at the state level or the federal level has decided that there was enough evidence to indict him that alone. is extraordinary, and it speaks to the degree to which trump has always gone up to that line. and you know, people will make all kinds of hay about what kind of case this is, but it's a case and a grand jury had it and they

came back with an answer. just just to underline the point, though. this is an indictment. yes very easy. we've talked about this. you can anybody decent lawyer can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich is often said. your point. abby is so well taken because the he has laid such a foundation for us all here to be judging and comparing. well, it's not as bad as starting an insurrection. so why are you doing this? if that's the comparison point, you've laid the foundation in a pr move to suggest to the american people that this should be dismissed. but there is a time in this country and there are still laws on the books that look very seriously at false business records look very seriously at anything that would be an attempt to try to influence an election, which by the way if this is what the charge entails. the same rhetoric. he's using. to be dismissive of this would be the very rhetoric that would substantiate a case to say, listen, we don't want anyone engaged in behavior that could have an iota of an influence on our elections. if that means hush money payment with that

intent or otherwise. and so i think we're seeing here is very well that the foundation in every brick laid for us all to even discuss is it as bad as trying to stop the peaceful positions of power or an interaction? a law violated is a law violated the way trump has broken through every norm all along, whether it's institutional norms that we're used to in washington and legal norms now, when you when you want to talk about executive privilege, for example, attorney client privilege, all of those things may be pierced. and it's just one more example of the way trump operates outside the lines and one of the other things. that's interesting, though. is that again. we don't know what's in this indictment, but if it is based on a potential violation of a campaign finance law, in other words, that this payment that michael cohen made the stormy daniels really was should have been counted as a donation of political donation, and it wasn't at the time. um that is

that's shaky. that's that's risky. they and prosecutors went after john edwards for that, and ultimately that he was not convicted. and one of the reasons was is he was able to say, and i think donald trump could argue. i wasn't trying to hide that from voters. i was trying to hide it from my wife. that's exactly right. and i think he was acquitted on one count and hung jury on five others something like that. so what we have here is the underlying charges, which in normal situations is a misdemeanor is the falsification of business records. it becomes a felony if it's done with the intent to violate a different crime. in this case, we are guessing we don't we don't know right one of the possible other crimes they might be using could be a violation of federal campaign finance laws. so it brings a question as to whether or not a new york state prosecution for falsification of business record can be elevated to a felony based on a proposed an intentional violation of federal law. there is a federal state sort of potential mismatch

there. it's unsettled law, so prosecutor brag is going out in a bit of a little clear that john edwards case is distinct in a number of key ways. one of the issues in terms of trying to prove a case that you are using, or you're spending the money trying to substantially influence an election. the stormy daniels and karen macdougal instances were close in time to the actual presidential election. remember it happened in 2016, and there were threats that they would go public and payments were made. the instances of royal hunter predated even primary season. so um, i want to go to evan perez right now, who has some breaking news on this historic night, evan? that's right, jake. we now know that there is now a court date and confirmed court date on tuesday in manhattan there at the district court in manhattan , the lauren delva is told by a source that the he is now the former president is scheduled to appear before judge juan martin in at the courthouse there in downtown manhattan again on tuesday. i'm told, by the way by

a source also that the secret service is making plans also for him to be brought to court on tuesday. again those security plans jake have been in the works. they've been working with the nypd about how this will go down and how best to secure the former president as he goes to court. this is expected to be a very short thing, probably 10 minutes 15 minutes. it's very rudimentary, and they expect or anticipate. that he can. they can get him in and then get him out before there's any danger that that is posed to the former president again. right now, the plan is for him to be presented to a judge on tuesday to hear what these charges are take. all right, evan perez some interesting and breaking news. thank you so much. i'm sorry. laura interrupted you. but let's take a step back on the case on the larger cases, omar in the wire once said, if you come for the king, you best not. is there any chance that this case is not

strong? yes. candidly yes, there's always the chance. um one of the reasons why there can be a little bit more confidence that is displayed, though, is that a grand jury has to be convinced, at least on a probable cause finding and they have to be asked to actually vote on specific charges. now it doesn't mean that it's beyond a reasonable doubt. but that's not the burden or standard at this particular juncture. it's merely probable cause whatever a case of this extraordinary consequence the idea that you would try to scratch your way by under a microscope is extraordinary to me. i can't imagine that. but there is always a chance that the jury would not be convinced. so we're going to continue this conversation throughout the night. next conversations with lawyers for the former president , former president and stormy daniels and later the many political repercussions, some of them surprising. from the former president's gop supporters and potential rivals. evever better

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weekly monge are oh, so cozy rooms are in there. should we go check it out good to stay here all weekend when you stay at a verbal doing the door code with you. it looks exactly like the picture because without privacy in your vacation home, full log cabin guys isn't really a vacation fire. is it? head tonight. former vice president mike pence, talking live with wolf blitzer right now, more on his former boss, more than 30 counts related to business fraud. that is what two sources familiar with the case against donald trump. tell her john miller about tonight's indictment. before the break. our evan perez reported that a court date has been set for this coming tuesday when donald trump is expected to turn himself in in manhattan and to give you some idea of the gravity of the

former president situation our next guest. one of his attorneys has already given testimony to a grand jury hearing a different case. one of at least three others we know of timothy parla . torrey joins us now, mr parla, tory. thank you so much for joining us again. you're not representing him in this matter, but what is your reaction? to president trump, former president trump being indicted. well it was kind of a surprise, obviously, the timing of it, but, you know, the new york county district attorney, it's an office that i've gone against many times. i served my career in new york city, and they have often brought in my experience cases that they really shouldn't have seen them in doubt. many cases that i am later you know, taking into dismissals are acquittals because they don't really instruct the jury on what the law was. so even if you have a situation where the facts are not in dispute the judge isn't in the real and the prosecutors who want the indictment are the ones telling the jurors. hey, by the way, this is the law as we

interpreted but if that's not what the law actually is, that indictment gets dismissed. sources have told cnn that donald trump faces more than 30 counts related to business fraud . if that number is correct, does the quantity of charges surprise you? based on what you i know about this case, no see with the feds. when they bring the case, they do it in a pretty concise manner. new york county district attorney i've seen them many times, where they take each individual little transaction and they separated into different counts. i once had a gambling case. it was a small sports book that they put into 1000 different counts for every single bet that they placed so the quantity doesn't really mean anything here. do you know if the president's team and the state of new yorker are discussing the arraignment? logistics we know that this court date is tuesday. that is my understanding is that they're working out the logistics. again that's that's not my responsibility by the mayor's

minded understanding. yes no understood. do you know if your colleagues who are specifically on this case been given details of the indictment, which which, obviously, we're told still is under seal. no they wouldn't be given details. really the fact that we're even talking about this kind of demonstrates the double standard because ordinarily, you wouldn't have any of these details because it's sealed. it's illegal for them to be leaking details like how many counts with the counts are and things like that until the george judge actually orders it unsealed, so no, they wouldn't be sharing that with the team at this point. so donald trump has made a lot of public statements and statements on social media attacking district attorney brag. attacking this case. um. spell out the evidence in your view that the d a has done anything improper. well really, what was wrong? here is the allocation of resources. you know, this is the district attorney that not very

long ago, they were pretty significant calls for his removal by his failure to prosecute crime in new york city and the rising crime in manhattan that matched his failure to prosecute and instead he diverts presumably millions of dollars into something that really doesn't have any effect on keeping new yorkers safe. no again. it's not my case. i'm not going to comment on the specific facts here, but this is the problem with elected district attorneys because elected district attorneys, particularly in one party jurisdictions on either side of the aisle, they oftentimes they don't pursue what keeps the voters safe, but rather what they think is going to help them win the next primary. and so it is that prioritization of politics over what is going to be keeping the new yorkers safe. that's really the big misconduct in my mind. what about the argument that, um , under donald trump's administration? uh there was a u

. s. attorney, mr berman in new york, who brought the case against michael cohen for a related crime. and if that was criminal, then you know individual a mentioned in that indictment of michael cohen should also at some point face consequences. well so there's two points of that. first of all, that is a decision for the u. s attorney's office to make you know the u. s attorney's office they had michael cohen signed a cooperation agreement. they went through all of this stuff with him. they had him in for several proper sessions, and they ultimately decided he was not credible enough for them to bring a case against anybody else, and he was sentenced without a five k letter cooperation letter. but the other point is this just because somebody has pleaded guilty to something as part of a cooperation agreement does not mean that other people committed that crime. i've had many clients acquitted based on the say so of a cooperating witness who pleaded guilty to something

that judges or juries later said was not a crime. as you know better than i. this is not the only criminal investigation into donald trump's actions. there is the doj special counsel investigation in d. c which encompasses the documents that were at mar-a-lago donald trump's involvement in january. 6th there's the fault in county, georgia. special grand jury investigation into election interference in georgia. um how concerned are you on your client's behalf? well in my focus is both of those special counsel investigations and really those two investigations on the fact he shouldn't have any problem at all because no crime was committed by him in either of those circumstances in a lot of ways the difference between doj and the elected district attorney is on full display here. because these elected county district attorney's are not really as accountable as doj is to make

sure that they're bringing viable cases. the facts of this indictment doesn't really have any effect on the other cases, but for the fact that alvin bragg has gone and kind of, you know, cross the line to be the first to say yes. we're gonna actually indict a former president, and i do think that jack smith is probably going to look at it. not so much for the you know the factual or the legal aspects, but the atmospherics of it of as the american people crosses the line from the concept. of indicting a former president to the reality and how does that play? yeah timothy parla. tory thank you so much for answering our questions really appreciate it. thank you for having me on the woman at the center of this joining me a stormy daniels attorney clark brewster. mr. brewster appreciate you joining us, you tweeted quote the indictment of donald trump is no cause for joy . i'm wondering what is going through your mind tonight and what you make of the reporting that he faces more than 30 counts related to business

fraud. well i think it's a sad day where we had you know, former leader of our country. president, united states indicted um, and so it doesn't give me any joy to see that. i mean, he's loved by many, followed by many respected by many, and the idea that he gets indicted is going to be sad. too many people. i don't think it brings joy at all. but on the other hand, i have great respect for the process. the grand jurors that listen to this evidence. listen to the testimony reviewed the documentary documentary evidence and made a decision. they were conscientious, i think, spend a lot of their their time of public service time. and if it does go to kill one thing, i mean, he has a presumption of innocence. but now this is the task of ah, determining his guilt or innocence and alternative. and also it's a simple concept. no man is above the law. so uh, i think in one aspect we've got a system that's

really working correctly. i understand you actually informed miss daniels of this indictment. what did she say? well i mean, she just had come in from the out outside in, just like return my phone call and your phone had blown up. she didn't have her phone with her, and she she wasn't surprised because i really do believe over the last three or four weeks, particularly it was, it seemed to be likely or inevitable that an indictment be returned. uh but i think she's relieved. i think she really, really is. it's a fight against his rejection of truth and his manufacturing of stories that really motivated her to try to cooperate in any way certainly to get the truth out. and they have this jury. at least the grand jury make that decision. miss daniels did not testify to this grand jury. i know you met you both met via zoom, i believe

with new york prosecute. it is about two weeks ago, can you talking all about the substance of that meeting or how that meeting went. well i mean, obviously, i can't. i don't want to talk about the new specific questioning, but basically it was a discussion about the chronology and the development of what happened back when she interacted with mr trump back in , oh, six and forward and then the events that led up obviously to the payoff, the nondisclosure agreement or the hush money, and so she, i think was able to give some context and some specifics to that. i know you said in the past, obviously, that she would be willing to testify if in case if this in when this goes to trial, you know a lot of the facts in the case. you certainly know miss daniels representation of those facts. what do you think? what kind of a case how difficult do you think this is for the former president's

defense team? well you know, to the extent that they play the hand they've been playing, which is just denial and accusation and character, uh, assassination of her and others, including mr cohen. i don't think that's going to be effective. frankly in a courtroom, it might play out in the in the in the court of public opinion for people that that still adhere and believed to what he says. but i think in a court that's not going to play very well. i really think it comes down to documents statements made captured conversations and the application of the law that this prosecutor and this grand jury has decided. uh form the elements of a cause of action or the counts themselves, so that's not gonna point room. clark brewster. i appreciate your time. thanks very much. coming up. we'll be talking to one of the central figures. indian

diamond michael cohen, one time attorney and fixer for the former president, and more republican reaction to the indictment just ahead on this historic night. stay with us. fungus is toughgh to kill, and t can spread its time to start using fungi. nail maximum strength. fungi nail is so powerful it cures and prevents fungal infections. plus it has a low and tea tree oil to restore skin healthsay goodbye to toe majority of patients withe sensitivity, icyrritated gums and weak enamel sensodyne, sensitivity gum and enamel relief sensitivity helps restore gum health and re hardens enamel . i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. what will you do? will you make something better? create something new. our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise. you need to bring out the innovator in you. good morning, everyone. we do. begin with

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reputation. defender .com or call 1877866 85 55. i've been wiedemann in eastern ukraine. cnn. again big breaking news. historic news sources telling cnn that donald trump is expected in a new york courthouse on tuesday, where he will face arraignment on criminal charges. also sources say that mr trump will face more than 30 counts related to business fraud. next hour. my colleague wolf blitzer will sit down with former vice president mike pence for extensive one on one interview. to get mr pence's reaction. i mentioned earlier that another potential contender for the 2024 republican presidential race, florida governor, ron desantis criticized the indictment. he called it quote stretching the law to target a political opponent, unquote and as our manu raju reported earlier, many republicans in congress are also criticizing the indictment and the manhattan d a. house speaker kevin mccarthy called the

indictment and injustice is number two. majority leader steve scalise said it was outrageous. i'm joined now by cnn political director david chalian. david i can't say that there are many surprises in these reactions. but it is amazing to see the degree to which so few people are willing to either wait to see what the indictment says no. and in fact, this was sort of rehearsed when donald trump put out on social media a couple weeks ago that he was going to get arrested on a tuesday and we saw the first round of this rallying around of donald trump by republican officials, mostly taking on his talking points of going after the manhattan d a. i would just note one difference in the 2024 presidential field. jake asa hutchinson, who is no fan of donald the former governor of arkansas is considering getting in. he didn't join in on the going after the prosecutor here . he called this a dark day for america when a former president is indicted, and he said that presumption of innocence must

follow here for donald trump like any other citizen, but that donald trump should not be the next president. but it's that the voters should decide that that shouldn't be decided in a court but pretty much every other potential rival of his and that 2024 field is indeed putting out statements going after this prosecution as something as they see purely political, although we should note that it was a week or so ago. that governor desantis, who issued this very strong statement, defending trump and attacking district attorney alvin bragg this evening that a week or so ago he was kind of dismissive of this as an issue, he said he he had other things to focus on running the state of florida, and he also twice in an almost cheeky way, said i don't have a lot of experience in paying hush money to porn stars . uh which was interesting. well, yes, the fact that he saw an opportunity here to talk about the underlying facts of the case here, which we know are

tawdry. what was certainly something that caught the attention not only of donald trump but some of his allies, and in fact, right after that, jake, it was matt gates, one of donald trump's most vociferous supporters from florida congressman who went on news max and gave an interview and basically said he didn't think ron desantis was being strong enough and suggested that he should get behind this notion of not having donald trump extradited out of florida to new york. now we saw ron desantis seems to be taking his cue. all right, david chalian. thanks so much. back with our panel, joining us cnn political analyst and senior political correspondent for the new york times maggie haberman, political commentator david urban, who once served as campaign adviser, the former president van jones, cnn political commentator, former special adviser to president obama. maggie haberman . you just joined us historic night. it certainly is and busy one. look there's so much that we don't know and i know that we have been saying a version of that for many, many weeks, but i

would just like to remind people that the word that people you know supporting trump we're putting out yesterday was fanning the flames of reports of the grand jury was out for a month, so i think there's a lot of twist to take on this. he is now going to go through the process of getting arrested, and i think that that is going to be much more jarring for him than i think. people realize i've been told that he has been briefed on what that will look like it will involve fingerprinting. it's going to be unlike you know a normal arraignment because he's going to have secret service and this is going to look different. um this is somebody who has spent more than four decades trying to avoid being arrested or being indicted. and so this is a really scary moment for him, despite whatever he says. now you talk to different people tonight. you hear he's fine. you talk to others who say that he is very angry. i expect that we will be hearing all of those emotions going in various ways for the coming days. i don't know what the fallout is going to be politically and i think this is the first time that i can think of where he can't he can't control this. he was able

to control impeachment in some way because mitch mcconnell was on his side in the senate trial because house republicans were on his side. he was even able to control the second impeachment to some extent, um, with the mueller report and the investigation. he was never going to get indicted as a sitting president, and i think that he has an over confidence in his ability to impact events by intimidation tactics by pushing out headlines. um this is now in the hands of whatever judge he draws and what the voters think there's so many potential ripple effects on public perception. voter perception. uh it's impossible to kind of game it out many steps in advance. it is in part because he's such a an agent of uncertainty, right? i mean, if you think about the fact that we had a week of a news cycle that he created by saying he was going to get arrested on tuesday, which literally no one was saying in the news media, and he created that and then when that fund raised office fund raised off it, and then when that day came and went, he

said, look, you know it's all falling apart. it didn't happen, so i don't know how he's going to handle this. i do notice that you know, he did not reiterate his call for protests. i thought that was pretty striking. i did notice that at least two phonic, a very close ally of his put out a statement saying that people should organize peacefully and everyone is trying to stress that around him because there are still these echoes of january 6 2021. i think it's also something we should note. we were talking about earlier that we've both heard from people is that they genuinely had an idea that this may be falling apart that it may not actually be happening. this is from trump's attorneys. there are a lot of attorneys around him at the moment. he's hearing from a lot of different voices, but that is why they were so caught off guard by how quickly this transpired today they had they believed the grand jury was not coming back. leave that this was not going to happen for a month and then others of them, not all of them, but others of them did believe that the case was falling apart primarily on the word of bob costello, giuliani lawyer and briefly michael cohen, either lawyer or legal advisor, depending on who you believe, who came in as a

defense witness in the grand jury in new york that you have the right to do that. um there was no evidence that they ever offered as to why they believed that just things that people were hearing and as i said, trump likes to create headlines that he thinks influence events that obviously did not happen here. and if anything, frankly, all the stories yesterday about how the grand jury was going to be off for a month, probably alleviated a pressure valve for bragg. it's sort of it took the heat down a little bit, i wouldn't bring in david urban and van jones, david i mean, this is a remarkable historic night. i'm wondering what your thoughts are. and what happens now? yes. so you know, anderson, i was just thinking back. 20 years ago when i was chief of staff in the united states senate and they had the impeachment of bill clinton. and bill clinton was impeached and was acquitted similar to president trump and then remained in office and they're you know ken starr went away, and special prosecutor robert ray was still lingering around, and there was a threat of clinton being indicted when he

left office, right. that was always kind of out there and the day before he left on january 19th 2001 former special prosecutor, robert ray, cut a deal with president, then president clinton to not prosecute him right and to let him surrender his law license for five years. pay a fine and put it aside and you know, there was a great deal of pressure on ray to indict him at the time, and he didn't and he said the american people and history will judge me and judge whether i did the right thing or not, and in retrospect you know, i think robert ray did the right thing. and i'm not so sure. history will be so kind in this case to alvin bragg, van jones. what do you think? well i think that you know, democrats and progressives are swinging back and forth between being very, very worried and very, very relieved. you know, on the one hand. uh jeez. you know, this case hanging on a novel phiri. it's not the insurrection. it's not the coup.

it's not the election interference is that hush money payments? there's worry that this is maybe not the bridge to try to die on at the same time. i think a lot of people are saying finally. finally something has happened to get some kind of accountability here. you've had our social norms run into the ground. you've had our political norms right into the ground. at least our legal norms are not being run into the ground. in this case, you have a prosecutor who went to everyday ordinary americans and said, here's what i've got. do you think it's chargeable? and they said yes. and i think that there is a sense among some people that somebody had to do something at some point and that everybody is just kind of standing on the edge of the swimming pool, looking in all these prosecutors all these cases and nothing has happened to happen yet and so on the one end, i think people are concerned and they're worried. and they hope that this sunset some president where president started getting prosecuted. there's real concern, but there is a sense that finally some

kind of accountability may land on the doorstep of donald trump , john miller. it's going to be interesting when the it wouldn't you know we're able to look back and know exactly what happened in that grand jury room over the last several weeks, because clearly the last witnessed that was supportive of the former president released critical of michael cohen made seem to affect the course of the grand jury in some way when you talk to people in the district attorney's office who have been following the plan of the grand jury presentation, they expected to get that indictment back on monday. i think the 13th of march two mondays ago, right putting, uh, bob costello in as a witness in place of donald trump, who they invited to testify. on his own behalf and declined seemed to be something that they plan to do, and then put it to the vote of the grand jury. i think we don't know what effect costello's testimony had on the grand jurors, uh, that

that is something that's only in their minds. but we know the effect it had on the prosecutors , which is they thought he did damage to their case. they didn't want him to be the last thing grand jurors heard before they went to a vote, and the people i've been talking to said , you know, they went into days of strategy to say, what do we need to put in front of this grand jury to repair that and so doubt into what costello said they brought in david ground monday, and another witness, as you reported today, we don't know who that is. in this hour of our continuing live coverage , all the latest in today's history making indictment more than 30 counts counts criminal charges against donald trump, according to sources. no former or sitting president has ever faced even one nor nor have any ever incited a violent mob stormed the capital in this our cnn exclusive. the man who was targeted by the mob that day, former vice president mike pence will get his