their minds. but we know the effect it had on the prosecutors , which is they thought he did damage to their case. they didn't want him to be the last thing grand jurors heard before they went to a vote, and the people i've been talking to said , you know, they went into days of strategy to say, what do we need to put in front of this grand jury to repair that and so doubt into what costello said they brought in david ground monday, and another witness, as you reported today, we don't know who that is. in this hour of our continuing live coverage , all the latest in today's history making indictment more than 30 counts counts criminal charges against donald trump, according to sources. no former or sitting president has ever faced even one nor nor have any ever incited a violent mob stormed the capital in this our cnn exclusive. the man who was targeted by the mob that day, former vice president mike pence will get his take wolf. well.

his take on today's historic and in some quarters, controversial criminal indictments in new york and jake first take a look at some of the headlines right now. the three big national papers miami west palm beach were news, often like politics is local tonight, cnn has learned that a court date is set for tuesday. there is some more late information coming in this evening. cnn's evan perez starts us off evan. well jake. the secret service is preparing to bring the former president to his court appearance on tuesday in manhattan. this is something that they've been talking with the new york police department, the court security staff. it's something they spent days and days working out and look, a lot of people have speculated about the former president's arrest for the secret service. they believe this is going to be a quick thing. this is going to be probably 10 15 minutes before this judge in manhattan and they can get him in and then they can get him out securely. this is something that the secret

service believes you know the you know they it's very easy they believe to lock down the streets of new york and get the former president from where he is to that courthouse. obviously something they practice a lot with the u. n general assembly every year securely bringing people in and out so they have no doubt that they can do this securely. the question is obviously now the working out the details. els between the former president's lawyers and the district attorney and the judge who he will present himself before. on tuesday, jake all right. evan perez. thank you so much. let's go to the next to cnn's kara scannell outside the courthouse in lower manhattan. carol what's the latest? you're hearing? yes so, like i said, we're hearing that arraignment right now is currently expected to be on tuesday. and we're learning from one source that will be before judge juan mershon. he is the judge that provide provided over the trump organization tax fraud trial, so he is familiar with his attorneys. he's familiar with the high profile nature of this

investigation. the case, the environment will go before him. now there's still a lot of details that will need to be worked out. people familiar with this arrangement are saying that they expect it will be handled like a regular arrangement. of course, the security is, evan explained, will be heightened and there will be different precautions that we see that in other cases, but he will still come in and we still be processed. he will still be fingerprinted, and he will go before this judge and be asked to enter a plea in this case, and then he will be escorted out there is this is a non violent felonies. so there's not a question of bail here, but we're definitely going to see a bigger security presence downtown here and the different precautions leading to that. but the agreement is now expected for tuesday. and they do expect it to go forward like any normal arraignment. just with these extra precautions, anderson authorities said anything about the mug shot elie honig had said in new york it's normally not made public have have they made any comments about that. no they

haven't said anything about that tonight. but ellie is right. they normally do not make any mug shots in new york public given the high profile nature of this, it's possible that we could see media coalition step in and asked the judge, you know , saying this is an extraordinary circumstances, a great public interest and we could see and also given that he's a public figure. this isn't necessarily a privacy issue. we could see some actions to try to make it public. but in general in new york, they are not made public and it's really unclear if they will even get a glimpse of him coming. in or out of the courthouse, given that they can take them in through these tunnels, but when we have seen the former president before new york, such as when he went to give a deposition before the new york attorney general, he did make a point of leaving trump tower, stopping, waving to the people pumping his fist, so it's possible he will try to do something at trump tower or make his presence known on tuesday, but it's really going to be interesting to see what kind of setup they have here. and if we even get a glimpse of him outside the courthouse, but the

way that it works inside it, there's a long hallway. is usually cameras on one side so you can see him walk down that hallway. and then enter and enter into the into the courtroom. they some defendants. they have walked down the whole length with their hands and cops that has yet to be rain. considine. if that will happen this time, anderson appreciate it. now to 99 exclusive interview wolf blitzer standing by with former vice president mike pence, wolf anderson. thank you very much. the former vice president of states mike pence is here with me in washington. and we have to begin mr vice president. first of all, thanks for having me on very much for joining us on this truly historic important day in american history, i want to begin with the new york grand jury, as you well know, as all of our viewers know by now voting to indict the former president of the united states, donald trump. he's now the first president, former president in american history to be criminally charged. it's a really significant development. i want to get your reaction to this unprecedented development. well i think the unprecedented indictment former president of

the united states on a campaign finance issue is an outrage. and it appears to offer millions of americans. mean nothing more than a political prosecution that's driven by a prosecutor who literally ran for office on a pledge. to indictce presidentr interrupting. it wasn't just the prosecutor, the district attorney in new york. who did this? this was a grand jury, grand jury of some 23 people and you need a majority 12 to go ahead and criminally indict. i understand that and been a long time since i was in law school wolf, but i remember the old saying. you can indict a ham sandwich right? the threshold, the burden of proof is very low. prosecutors make decisions, discretionary decisions about what they bring all the time federal prosecutors passed on this the manhattan d a initially delayed it passed on it. but when you have an attorney general in new york and manhattan, d a that targeted one

particular american in their campaigns, i think that offends the notion of the overwhelming majority of the american. people who believe in fairness. who believe in equal treatment before the law, and this appears to be just one more example wolf of the kind of two tiered justice system that the american people have had enough of your justice department. the trump pence justice department, as you well know, they charged trump's former attorney, michael cohen, uh, over these very same payments and said he made them and i'm quoting now. from the trump justice department in coordination with and at the direction of donald trump spent more than a year in prison. do you concede? that was a crime? well, i can see the lying to congress is a crime, which was if memory serves with michael cohen went to jail. for the most part, i look the only charge, but here's the issue. i have to tell. you know, i'm traveling around the country a lot. my wife and i are going through a

process of making decisions about our future. and you know, i was just that. i know, but i was just in iowa yesterday, i tell you, i was three different cities. and even though this has been in the news over the last two weeks and issues about me and another investigation were in the news, not one person raised this issue to me and i have to tell you the media's obsession. about these investigations into donald trump . i think it's being lost on the american people who are struggling under the weight of the failed policies of the biden ministrations. but look this this i think i think the american people are going to look at this. see it as one more example of the criminalization of politics in this country, and it's one more example of the kind of drama that captures washington d c along it almost impossible for us to solve the problems in order politician if trump is convicted. of this. these crimes that he's being charged with today should that disqualify him from being the republican presidential nominee

or should he drop out if he's convicted? if it's a long way to that decision, i promised to answer that question if that approaches it's a possibility that a judge would even throw this case out before we even go to trial, so i don't want to talk about hypotheticals and all this. what i want to tell you about is the american people are struggling under the failed policies of the biden administration, at home and abroad and in an open forum in iowa, where the caucuses take place where the national conversation has always begun, historically about the future leadership of the country. this never came up. i mean, i honestly have to tell you that i think this is an outrage. but i also think at a time when the american people are struggling so much that this will only further served to divide our country. and wolf. you know, you're you're seeing all over the world. uh the message that this sends to the wider world is

a terrible message about the american justice system. and i would that this manhattan d a would have thought better of it and put the interests of the nation first, but let's let's put this into some sort of perspective. trump as you well know, he's been warning we could see what he calls death and destruction if he faces charges now that he has been indicted. how worried are you about the potential for violence and you saw the potential for violence, the real violence and you were there on january 6th? well, there's no excuse for that kind of rhetoric on either side of this debate, and there's really no reason to be calling for people. to be protesting over it as well, i think look, i know, i know president trump will and i know president trump can take care of himself in the courtroom and he ought to focus on that right now. but i got to tell you this is this is going to be outrageous. you agree, though his language is outrageous look , the harsh language on either side of this is unacceptable, including that but i want to say

to you i really do believe that this decision today is a great disservice to the country and the idea that for the first time in american history a former president would be indicted on a campaign finance issue to me, it just smacks of political prosecution, and i think the overwhelming majority of the american people will see it that way, wolf any circumstances at all mr vice president in which you would think it would be appropriate to criminally prosecute a former us president , or should former presidents be categorically immune from any and all criminal charges? no one is above the law, including former presidents. maybe clear on that point. and the american people know this. but in this case and controversy over campaign finance, i can't speak to the marriage of this case at all. but i can speak to the issue emanating out of the question over campaign finance

should never have risen to the level to bring and unprecedented and historic prosecution against the trump have been treated differently than michael cohen, who went to jail for doing this. michael cohen went to jail for lying to congress. look this is an issue about campaign finances , and it's a tenuous at best, and i've even seen here on the airways of cnn. a whole lot of legal experts have been saying not this case, and prosecutors make these decisions all the time for everyday americans and for people in high positions and people of great influence. so this is the this is a bad decision by a political prosecutor, and i think the american people are going to see right through it. trump's indictment today change it all your calculus as to whether or not you're going to actually run for president yourself. no it has no bearing on our decision for me. for my wife, karen. it all comes down to our sense of calling and we're going to continue to travel around the

country listened intently and reflect on our years and i've known you all those years wolf my years in leadership in the congress my years as governor of indiana and four years as vice president of the united states, creating a record in an administration while it did not end well, i'll always be proud of the record of the trump pence administration. we're going to reflect on all of that and decide where we might next contribute to the life of the nation to your decision making on whether to run in a little while, but let me let me follow up on these questions. i want to turn to the justice department special counsel's investigation of january 6th. as you know, a federal judge has ruled that you must testify about your conversations with president trump up until that day. will you testify? well obviously, i can't talk about it much given nature of the grand jury proceedings, but what i can say is that i'm very pleased. that a federal judge for the very first time recognized that the constitution speech and debate

protections apply to the vice president of the united states when you're serving as president of the senate. uh that was the core of my concern about the subpoena being brought. i'm meeting tomorrow with our attorneys to review that decision will make a decision in the coming days. but you know, i have nothing to hide. wolf you have nothing to hide. why not? why not testify? look uh, i'm going to be the law. and i've been speaking very openly and written very extensively about the events leading up to january 6th and on january 6th and will continue to and as i said, we're going to review that decision will have, uh, what will will make a judgment about the best way forward, but, um, i really am very pleased that that the federal judge agreed with our position and recognize that the constitution speech intubate protections only apply to the vice president to testify about what happened on january 6th when you were serving according

to the constitution, the vice president is also president of the u. s senate, but you have to testify on the conversations you had with trump leading up to january 6th. that's what we're going to be reviewing. tomorrow and again. i can't get in detail about the judges. what is your instinct canyon? but you think you should do i you're good at this wolf and i know you're driving for an answer. we're going to have an answer in the next several days about the best way forward and i that they'll have an answer. and i promise you that will follow the rule of law. but i want to carefully reflect on what the judge decided, and, um but you know it at the end of the day. um uh, we're gonna obey the law and i'll continue to do is i've done speaking about those events. you should testify as as far as the events leading up to january 6th year conversations with trump. that's what the judge said. well, i the rule of law would be to honor that right well look with the rule of law also

includes the possibility of appeal, right. you appeal. we're giving some consideration to that as well. but you haven't decided. finally we have not. trump opened his rally last weekend in waco, texas, is you know with a recording of the national anthem sung by january , 6th prisoners played over footage of january 6th. are you comfortable with that? no. tell us why. well, my. my wife, my daughter. my staff and i were evacuated first in my office off the senate floor. and then to the parking garage below the senate on january six. we stated our post. i know we did our job that day. by god's grace. we completed our work under the constitution of the united states. but on that day, uh, when i sent out a message calling on people to leave the capital immediately, and i made it clear my position, then continues to be today that those that engage in violence in the capital i believe i should be

prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and i'll never diminish what happened that day, and i'll never never celebrate people that assaulted 140 police officers that ransacked our capital now that that being, said wolf, there were people that were caught up in it very clear of them were saying hang mike pence. very mike pence they were threatening. you became aware of that, after the fact and, um look, i don't doubt that there were some people that were innocently caught up in it, and, uh but there were there were people that came into the capital that assaulted police officers. and i believe they should answer to the law. so many of them already answering to the law right now, there are indeed belong in jail, right? they do, mr vice president want you to stand by. we have more to discuss a lot more to get to this is cnn special live coverage of a truly historic night here in the united states. first former president of the united states to be indicted much more coming in. when you

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we get a chance to talk. i want to be begin this this sex segment with a truly stunning arrest of a wall street journal reporter in russia over allegations of espionage. it's the first time in american reporter has been detained in moscow since the cold war. so what's your reaction? and how should the united states respond? well, i think look whether it's uh, now the arrest of an american journalist told dragged out of a restaurant. in russia or whether it was the downing of one of our drones. i it's time for the biden administration. to make it clear with putin that we're not. we're not gonna we're not gonna put up with his provocations. we're not. we're not going to put up with bullying reporters, which is nothing new in russia goes on all the time. they've been reporters who vanished, lost their lives and during the putin rain, but i think this is a moment for, uh president biden and biden administration to send a deafening message to russia.

that uh, they got about 24 hours to release that reporter. there's going to be real consequences in the relationship between the united states and russia going forward. we're already we're already at odds in ukraine, but there's as you know, in diplomatic circles. there's a broad range of connections, and i think i think, putting russian diplomats on a plane sending them out of this country. real consequences beyond that, in terms of additional sanctions, we just, you know, i've been a champion of a free and independent press throughout my career. that's a scarcity in russia today, but we ought to be demanding that that wall street journal reporter be released in the next 24 hours. and so if you were president of the united states right now, when you say real consequences for the russians what you would expel all the russian diplomats time to put some people on a plane. i mean, the reality is you remember back in the early days of our administration when russia was implicated in in in a poisoning incident in great britain that i think we expelled

about 40 diplomats and european countries did the same. this this is the kind of moment where you you have to put your foot down. you have to make russia understand. that they're going to be widening consequences with this kind of provocation. i don't want to leave out the downing of an american drone for which there already should have been a response by this nation that by the administration over international airspace by administration just moving too slow, whether it's the chinese balloon, whether it's a drone, and they can't move slow on this, we have to stand up. uh for the right of american journalists to do their job, especially in a time of war, florida's republican governor, ron desantis is doing some cleanup right now, after downplaying the war in ukraine, as he was calling it a territorial dispute. you've said there's no room in the republican party for apologists for putin is governor desantis of putin apologists. look, i disagreed with his assertion. but it was a territorial dispute

, but but when i made that comment months ago, a comment that i stand by more about people that literally in the public debate today, including some in the republican party. who who, you know, draw moral equivalency between russia and ukraine. i mean, this isn't a territorial dispute. there's no moral equivalency. this is the russian invasion. and as the united states has done so many times over the last several decades, we need to continue to provide ukrainian soldiers with this with the support they need to repel the russian invasion. that's what we did back in the reagan era. the reagan doctrine . we basically said if you're willing to fight the communists in your country will give you the means to fight them there, so we don't have to fight them here. and i'm going to continue to be a very strong voice that look, the war in ukraine. it's not our war, but freedom is our fight and anybody that thinks that vladimir putin would stop

at ukraine. has another think coming. i mean, we need to give the ukrainians that means they have need today to repel that. and the biden administration. wolf has been slow. they continue to be slow promised 33 tanks in january. now they're saying it's going to take a year to give him the tanks. we ought to give the plans. we got to get the missiles, president, biden said. we'll be there as long as it takes. it shouldn't take that long. where the leader of the free world where the arsenal democracy, we give the ukrainian soldiers what they need. they could drive that russian invasion committed war crimes. absolutely he's committed war crimes, and i didn't need some international body to tell me that my wife and i traveled into ukraine. um about a month after the initiation of hostilities. we went to a refugee center. i have to tell you, wolf, i will never forget. the looks on the faces of those women of every age children of every age, carrying all their earthly possessions, the fear in their eyes fleeing their country. it

is unspeakable, this unprovoked russian war of aggression has got to be met with strength. let's get to some other really important issues while we while we have you, i want to turn to the tragic school shooting in nashville, tennessee. this week, six dead three of them nine year old kids in the school. also three staff members that the school president biden is now calling to ban all assault weapons like the ones used in this brutal attack at that elementary school of christian public christian school. many americans are wondering why do people need weapons like the ar 15? well, first my heart goes out to the families of those lost the courageous principal who lost her life. um they've been in our prayers and our hearts and we mourn with those who mourn. but i have to tell you. this is not the time to go back to the same tired saw. over over gun control. i mean, we

looks at some of the worst crime ridden cities in america have the strongest gun control measures in place. what we need is new, bold action. i think in a broad range of areas number one while while they took down the assailant in this case, i think we need to get to the bottom of a motive because it's very possible. this was actually a hate crime. and we need to be very clear. i visited synagogues while i was vice president that were subject to violence there were prosecuted as hate crimes. we need to identify whether or not we have we have a widening enmity toward christian and traditional conservative views. that's that's being driven driving people to violence. secondly i really i really do believe that we've got to get more serious about penalties and expedited penalties for those who engage in in mass killings in this country. wolf i think the time has come for federal legislation that would bring the death penalty to anyone that

engages in a mass shooting that claims lives and we ought to have an expedited appeal. do that if there was what they call common sense gun control in america, as there is in almost every other country, there's the issue is that we have the second amendment. we have a constitution. final right to keep and bear arms. in this country and law abiding americans cherish that right and it's in the bill of rights. so we look we taking guns away from law abiding citizens isn't gonna make america safer, getting tougher on stage. it's not in the constitution to say you can buy assault weapons. well look, look, and again, we're going back into the same tired debate . i think i think tougher penalties on those expedited appeals. so that people meet their fate in years, not in decades. those who engage in these mass killings that are happening all across our country , and secondly, i will tell you when i was governor of indiana. one of my last acts was i broke ground on the first mental health hospital that indiana had

built in 30 years. wolf we have got to get back to institutional mental health care in this country. so that when we identify people that are that are demonstrating a propensity for violence that their families can intervene and have somewhere to send them which usually today is just the county lockup for a short period of time. i think we got to get serious about mental health, but i also think we've got to have tougher penalties at the federal level for this mass shooting business and it i think it's time. i think it's time for federal legislation with the death penalty for mass shooting . let's turn to some other very important domestic issues. well well, i have you, mr vice president, starting with social security and medicare, which are really important. former president trump and governor ron desantis. for that matter. both say they oppose changes to those programs. that's what they say. now you say changes should be on the table. so let's get specific. what changes would you make to social security and medicare? well joe biden's

policy on social security and medicare is insolvency. right now. president biden, even though there's bipartisan support for it in the senate. won't even sit down and talk about common sense and compassionate reforms of our entitlements. and i disagree with president trump on this as well and with the governor of florida and anyone else that's taken. that position changes. would you make me get to that? but first off, your viewers deserve to know we have a national debt the size of our nation's economy for the first time since world war two left on reformed. these programs will drive that debt from $30 trillion 2 $150 trillion by the time my new granddaughters reached their 30th birthday, when you get to that point, if you wait to reform it by then all the choices are bad. massive increases in taxes or cuts in programs. i believe to answer your question. that if we bring people together, we sit down and we can talk about reforms to

social security and medicare for people under the age of 40 say to people who are in retirement today. this has nothing to do with, you know, changes anybody that's going to retire in the next 25 years. no changes whatsoever, but for younger americans, most of whom don't believe they'll get anything from social security today. i think we can introduce common sense and compassionate reforms that have all been on the table for years. but i have to tell you i'm talking about it out there because i think we have a moral obligation. to your grandchildren and my grandchildren not to leave this not mountain of debt, mountain range of debt to them, and we can do it if we if we have the person on this matter, you agree, then with republican presidential candidate nikki haley that the retirement age should be older for people now in their twenties. in other words, not 65. it should go up to 70 or 75. is that what i hear you saying? it's on its way up? because back in the day in the 19 eighties, you and i are old enough to remember. president

ronald reagan sat down with speaker tip o'neill, and they worked out an arrangement that extended social security's solvency for decades, and it gradually increased the age of retirement. look, i thank god that americans are living longer. ah the average life expectancy has continued to go up. we're healthier. i honestly think that younger americans in in exchange for some of those modest reforms would welcome changes in the system that would lift the burden. retirement hb. what would you raise the number two? this is always where washington goes, not you, but it's where washington goes, is let's pin you down so we can shoot at you when i'm saying is let's be straight with the american people about the size of the problem, and let's sit people down and generate the kind of leadership. i mean, we're we're on track in the next two years will spend more on interest on our national debt that we are doing on the national defense of this country . i have to tell you for our national security for our nation's well being. we have to

begin a conversation about common sense, compassionate reform. let's move to another very, very important sensitive issue. abortion federal judges in texas is now considering revoking fda approval of an abortion pill here in the united states and abortion of that pill , it could have enormous consequences for women all across the country. would you like to see authorization for that abortion pill revoked? yes i would. and in fact, the foundation we created in washington has weighed in to a court case on just that point. look, the those aboard efficient drugs are very dangerous. it's largely unreported story. but in this case the fda went beyond their legislative authority to actually approved ability to approve or disapprove the abortion. but look, if you drill down in the cases, you'll see they went beyond their legislative authority. i'm a big believer and you can't have these administrative agencies essentially going beyond the law

. we believe they did in this case, but i look i'm pro life. i don't apologize for it. i truly do believe that these abortifacients are dangerous. i welcome states that are getting them that are getting them off the shelf and will continue to push back on this. fda supported a 15 week. federal abortion ban 15 weeks. governor desantis recently backed the republican proposal for a six week abortion ban in florida. would you support a six week ban nationwide? well of course i look, i'm i'm pro life. i don't apologize for it. i believe that we've got a we've got to do everything in our power. to restore the sanctity of life to the center of american law, and i'd support federal legislation in that regard if i was in the congress or had any other job here in town. but to be honest with you. i fully expect this is most likely going to be resolved on a state by state basis. i

mean, when the supreme court overturn roe v. wade. turn to the question of abortion to the states and to the american people. and for as long as i live, i'm going to be a champion for life and continue to advocate for a country that cares for the unborn that cares for the newborn that comes alongside women in crisis, pregnancies. and i will always stand for life. i think your position is clear. you don't leave any doubt about it. mr vice president. thanks so much for the time. thank you will appreciate it very, very much. let's go back to jake tapper on the indictment. the historic indictment of donald trump, jake . thanks wolf. we obviously just heard from former vice president mike pence on this historic night as his ex boss donald trump becomes the first former president. in the history of the united states to ever be indicted. let's get some perspective now from cnn political commentator and former illinois republican congressman adam kinzinger, who was obviously on the january 6th

committee. congressman what's your reaction to the indictment? well i mean, you know, i think we all are looking forward to reading. it may be looking forward isn't the right word. but we're all we all want to read it to see what's in it. i think it is. i mean, mike pence expresses the concern of many people, which is. is this a political indictment? um i tend to think no, because i tend to think that nobody is above the law. and, as was mentioned, michael cohen paid a price for this. a former president should pay a price for this as well, particularly knowing doing what he did. but that said, i think we'll be able to tell when we read the indictment. what evidence has had exactly what the nature of this is, but there's no doubt this is unprecedented. it is a somber and sobering day because it is the first time in this country that a former president will be indicted, and that has some implications for the future. but again, nobody is above the law. again we don't know what's in the indictment. maybe it will come forward, and we'll all be stunned at all this new evidence

and all these new crimes that we didn't know about. but if it is not that, if it is what it appears to be based on reporting business crimes that might be considered a misdemeanor, uh, using a novel, uh, legal theory because it the crimes were used to hide a federal campaign election campaign, um, contribution law violation. does that concern you? does that concern you that it's maybe weak? yeah would concern me. i mean, look, there are members of congress that have gone to jail for campaign finance violations , particularly ones they knowingly have done so again. in this kind of mantra of nobody's above the law. it's important to note but given the unprecedented nature of this, it's not necessarily saying that you know, new york should not go ahead with it. but i think we i anybody would prefer that if

there's gonna be other indictments for, say, january 6th or for the documents or for what happened in georgia would have been much better had those gone first. you know, i believe in the law. i believe if somebody broke the law, they ought to pay the price for that. but again when we read this, uh, certainly hope that if the d a moved forward that he has strong evidence and strong reason and what do you make of all of the individuals? your former colleagues in the house of representatives who are really rallying around donald trump, uh , in very, very strong ways, including the threat of hauling the district attorney, alvin bragg before congress to find out why he did what he did today. i think it's completely inappropriate. i think they ought to wait for the indictment. they ought to wait to see what it is. if it looks like a political indictment, which i'm not saying it is, but if it does, then you can come out and be opposed to it. and you can talk about what hearings to have. but this kind of, you

know, premeditated going after the d a already knowing supposedly what's in it without having any clue what's in it. you know, donald trump today by the way, called this the darkest day in american history, and that takes into account days like pearl. harbor. days like 9 11 the battle of antietam. this is the darkest day to him in american history goes to show where his thoughts are. and so from my former colleagues, you all just need to take take a deep breath. you know, we're gonna know soon enough. what's in this indictment, and then you can make your statements but to do this, so preemptively, i think shows that this has nothing to do with the rule of law and has everything to do with either cowardice on the one hand or just concerned for the political future that you have on the other. and lastly, sir, we had on one of donald trump's attorneys who is representing him in the justice department special counsel jack smith's case looking into the president's alleged crimes are misdeeds when it comes to classified documents, and also january 6th knowing. so much

about january 6th as you do because of your position on the committee. do you think donald trump committed crimes and what crimes would they be? yeah i certainly do. i mean, look, there is his involvement. i think particularly when you look at the idea of sitting there and saying to, you know, just tell. just say that the election was stolen. leave the rest of me and the republican congressman premeditated knowledge that he knew not just he wasn't just an innocent bystander with everything leading up to january 6th. and then when january 6th happened, he sat there and proactively did nothing despite being the one man with the authority to do something. if he's not guilty of some kind of crime for what happened. then in this case i did then there's major loopholes in the law because i don't know who would be guilty for anything at that moment. so look, that's up to the i'm not the lawyer. it's up to the justice department to make that decision. i'll trust that they come to the right

answer, but knowing what i know about january 6th everything that led up to it and then on the actual day, my goodness, there's a lot of people that are paying a price as they deserve to for what they did on january 6th, but the guy that with the fire certainly ought to need to pay a price as well. former congressman adam kinzinger, republican of illinois. thank you so much really appreciate it. good to see you again. yep. and i'm back with our panel here and let me ask you not knowing what jack smith, the special counsel looking into january, 6th not knowing what evidence he has uncovered. uh and not saying that you would support bringing these charges. were you in charge? what crimes could he be looking into? based on the public record based on the work of the january 6th committee? well of course, we know what he's looking at. in terms of the mar-a-lago documents. that's a pretty understandable related to january 16th january 6th. i mean , there there are, there are a number of different charges that many people have discussed that that smith may be looking at fraud against the government. uh an attempt to obstruct a federal

government. um uh, function proceeding so there there are plenty of statutes for him to look at the conduct. we know that he's focused on. we know he's looking at the fraudulent elector scheme. we know simply from the raft of subpoenas that have been served on individuals who participated from. i think it's across seven different states. now we know that he's looking at the pressure on mike pence to delay the proceeding to build more time for his appeals and his legal use of legal system to try to overturn the results of the election. so there's a ton the problem in trying to figure out what jack smith is doing is there are so many different ways that he could be going. we're just not sure which ones he's assessed as being the strongest yet. what do you think? curiously as you spoke to congressman kinzinger, he has to really look at what was lacking in the january 6th public hearings. what was lacking in the christian that was there was there was never any direct statements, really of the former president of united states while he was in office to someone to either have a

conspiracy or to have a direct instruction that had a straight line through it. that's why the testimony of vice president mike pence would be so critical. what did he say to you? did he know that he had lost the election when he's telling the public something very different. how did you know that? he knew that what actions that he want to take or for you to take as the person who was the head of the senate in that capacity. it's so vital to have the who, what? when? where? why and these instances because that's the through line. the january 6th is a much more spurious and complex case and, of course, the mar-a-lago doctors, which is admitted to but you can't lose sight of the fact that we still don't have these specific statements of one donald trump to the powers that be that, or he was trying to delegate the authority to in that moment, and you know, with with my pants, i mean he had important private conversations, and i'm told that he never repeated those private conversations to his staff. even his closest aides he never believed he should do that. and

if donald trump i told him that he actually believed that he had lost the election. that is laura's. that is so important to this to this case, because then why would you incite any kind of a riot? if you knew you actually had lost and it seems to me the other piece of it is also, um, he we know that in the moment when it the riot was happening when the crowds were outside, he'd opened the doors to the oval office to hear the crowds taking it in people around him, said that he seemed to be enjoying it. and that was part of the january 6th hearings. but what really wasn't established and it would be a big question mark if jack smith would be able to establish this is did he have any foreign knowledge of the plan to make that rally? an insurrection to go from the ellipse to something violent over at the capitol. that's the part that we don't really know. how much did he know how much

did he know of what his aides may have known? um and that's a key part of this because when it's you know, it's one thing to say he incited an insurrection. we don't know to what extent he had four knowledge that this whole thing was as preplanned as it seemed to have been with all of these different actors. amassing weapons in different places, and coming to washington . fully armed and coming with a plan and coming with, you know, almost like tactical gear. how much of that? was he aware of directly or indirectly? and did he have an obligation to do something about it? i mean, we did have the testimony. you remember cassidy hutchinson, who's who talked about the former top aide to the then chief of staff, mark meadows. um who testified that donald trump at that rally at the ellipse before? the insurrection began knew that there were people with weapons in the crowd wanted them to be able to get in the crowd.

because this is according to her testimony. they pose no threat to him right and then also wanted that crowd. to go to march on the capital, and he wanted to go to the capital even after he got back to the white house. he was pushing to go to the capital. i think there was something interesting that former vice president pence would not say tonight and that is what he will testify to that he's putting off making the decision. ah i think gloria will tell you we thought that he might say that tonight in the interview with both, i would guess that he made a decision. he did not want to step on the indictments today by saying how far he left the possibility that he would he doesn't he doesn't. he has never sounded like somebody who's going to fight this subpoena. let's just say that he is, you know, he's talking about constitution, notably he didn't say that tonight. could have. you could have said i'm not going to

appeal, but we are still determining the contours of what i will do. he didn't say that. he's very passive about that. he's happy to say that the right decision was made in terms of his role as head of the senate and vice president, united states but he hasn't really said much so it leads me to believe that it's needed to fight, but he didn't need the victory. explain what you mean by that needed to he needed to push back on the subpoena. he needed to claim privilege he needed to look as if he wasn't knuckling under and agreeing to what the prosecutors are trying to accomplish. but at the end of the day, he knows that those claims of privilege we're going to fall apart, just like they have her every other witness that has tried to assert executive privilege. and then, of course, the concocted privilege of it was part of my congressional responsibility, speech and debate clause. it reach a little bit, but there's a lot of area that doesn't wouldn't come near anything that could be credibly claim to speech and debate protected something else that he said to wolf that i thought was

interesting was when donald trump opened his rally in waco, texas, which was interestingly chosen site for a rally. um he had a musical tribute by the january six prisoners. uh huh. and it had images of that violent attack on the capital ah ah and wolf asked him, um what he thought and he he obviously thought it was inappropriate and said, so, um, and it's a remarkable that we even have to have this discussion that a violent attack on the capital happened. and here is a former president literally glorifying it acting as though people who acted in a violent way that day to stop the counting of our votes. uh acting as if they're political prisoners. yeah and yet when? when vice president pence said it, i was like, oh, good. that's that's that's brave of him. it's not actually brave for anyone. really. it's these are criminals one time that, he said with no uncertain terms? no

you know, you always listen for the yes response to say. okay explain what they belong in that way right along in prison in prison, but that's a gutsy thing for a republican official to say these days, sad to say standard when you think about the idea of you said that he was glorifying it. it was taunting. it was essentially saying, these are the people who stormed this capital. they're singing and they're singing the national anthem, and they're doing it at a rally for someone who is running for office to be the president of the united states again, and some still believe is currently the president of the united states. and so this is our remind people about the org chart of the department of justice, the executive branch they are the ones to enforce the law to have somebody who heads the executive branch of government hopes to taunt and suggests that somehow they were really the equivalent of tourists and now singing coral taurus is very interesting, but i always very stunned frankly, when you had the statement of vice president mike pence to

direct to alvin bragg. going back to the elected prosecutor role, and i was a career prosecutor. i was not somebody who was ever elected to that position. but there's always this talking point, and i think sometimes prosecutors invite the talking point when they run a campaign and a platform going against a particular person. but as alvin bragg, bragg did as james at one point, but the thing is a lot of people serving in the patients actually make the decisions and actually investigate our career prosecutors as well, who are investigating these cases? alvin bragg. i don't think it's the one before. for the grand jury saying here here's what i'd like to ask you to indict on. and so it does discount just the actual process of an indictment. when you return to the idea of a political campaign. these are grand jurors who made the decision likely what they have said what they will actually indict on. we're still waiting to know, but here's how these two stories connect. i mean, donald trump is running on the january 6th insurrection, but he's also running on the

insurrectionists being wrongfully persecuted, and he's connecting that to his. you know the allegations against him. he's tying those things together very explicitly in his re election campaign, and that is also part of why this is so extraordinary and just ways that you could never imagine a former president doing or presidential candidate doing. he's running on people who are jailed for an insurrection, tying all of these cases against him to those cases , and, you know, i mean, republicans are basically just saying, well, i wish he wouldn't do that. but nobody is really nobody's saying what pence did tonight which is saying that is wrong and let me throw this to anderson. here's a question for your panel. anderson does what alvin bragg and the grand jury did today. does that help donald trump with his base and with maybe some other voters outside of his base? make the argument.

uh none of these prosecutions are fair. uh even though you and i know that that's not the case , whatever you think of alvin bragg that has nothing to do with violent insurrectionists being put in prison for violence on that day does does what happened? make that a little easier for donald trump to sell ? yeah appreciate what the panel back here with the team in new york john you you've actually well we were listening to vice president. you have been talking about the threat matrix, the kind of threats that are already coming in. so from the beginning of the grand jury investigation , the n y p d e and other agencies, the court officers have been tracking threats that have been coming in as a result of this and what they've seen is in array of really interesting social media posts. uh some focus on what will surround you know mar-a-lago with people to protect trump, you know, from an arrest two will surround the

courthouse suggestions to bring guns. predictions of civil war. um and then a flip side to it, which has been also really interesting. um posts in social media platforms, saying don't believe these calls to show up at demonstrations. these are false flag operations because there's thousands of nypd officers that will be waiting for us. it's not going to be like the capital to really interesting stuff, which is a lot of i should say a lot. a significant amount of this traffic is originating. um and what intelligence people think is foreign influence campaigns. these are the addresses talking about what patriots should do that in resolving back to russia, so they've seen the full panoply of threats closely has the former president been following i mean, obviously, all these legal battles, but even the legal battles of others in his orbit like ellen weisberg, this is really important because that one was hilberg was the cfo of the trump organization and his arrest and what's happened

to him? he's obviously spending his final days serving on his 100 day sentence. i believe it was right now it really shocked trump. it kind of has haunted him. he keeps bringing it up and conversations not just with his legal team, but also with friends at dinners. because he cannot believe that really fathom that someone who was so close to him for so long has gone through this often remarking he can't believe that he was treated this way, essentially seeming to have this argument that it would never actually come to this point with someone like alan weisberg, someone who worked so closely with him, and i think you know what people who've heard trump say this and i wonder if you think the same thing is trump obviously sees it, the dolans of himself and that happening to him, and that's why maggie of and i feel like i've talked about this a lot, which is this idea that trump wanted to be indicted. it's just not accurate, i think sure he maybe tell some people he wants to fight. a lot of people said he's actually very surprised tonight by this and the reality that this is actually a step he is going to be taking as soon as next tuesday is really hitting home for him. i think that's absolutely right. i mean, when

he was watching alan weisberg surrender because that was televised, by the way was his chief financial lobster. i mean, knew everything about the trump organization had dedicated his life to not only donald trump, donald trump's father before that, and so it came with two layers of anxiety on that front, anderson one is what will ellen weisberg due in connection with donald trump, which was part of the anxiety at the time but watching it as he was arrested? trump was saying, i mean, he was really haunted by it and kept saying something to the effect of can you believe what they're doing to that old man? alan white silberg is a little bit younger than donald trump. although he looks older, trump has often experiences these things. he often experiences these things through imagining it for himself as caitlyn, this is, you know, this is not really an act of empathy. it's more about and this could be me next. and so this idea that he wants to get per blocked that he wants to get fingerprinted that he wants to be walked into whether i don't know if it's 100 center street or 80 center street. whichever courthouse we're talking about. it's just not true. that doesn't mean he won't

lean into the spectacle when it happens because i fully anticipate he's going to do that. but two things can be true at once and one is that he will. he will advantage whatever card he's got. and he can still be afraid of this. anderson i think donald trump is about to get a cold slap of reality here because over the years he has seen many people around him get indicted, and, in some instances , actually sent to prison. allen weisberg, michael cohen, paul manafort, yet he's always seemed to sort of dodged between the raindrops. but this is the criminal justice process. this is different. there's no amount of politicking. it doesn't matter what the count is in the senate between republicans and democrats. it doesn't matter what people tweet. you cannot influence this process that ultimately will come down to what happens in that courtroom. 12 jurors one defendant table of prosecutors, and if they find him guilty, he's going to be a convicted felon, and there's just no dodging it. so this is a real moment, i think of reckoning for donald trump. and it's likely to be the beginning of a long the first chapter of a long book, perhaps if the

charges are filed in other jurisdictions, this is just the beginning. major investigation major investigation so this is just a prelude of more that maybe to come, and he may wind up traveling around the country, defending himself into a host of jurisdictions as the charges come in, so this is the beginning of a very significant chapter in his life and in the countries can i just make one point? we also this still has to go before a judge. a judge could knock these charges back. this is a novel a novel case, um this is not been attested legal theory. so we are predicting one course of action, and that could happen. but the other thing that could happen is the judge and ends up reducing this in some way. in some ways, trump's best hope is in pretrial motions because if this actually gets to trial i think in manhattan, it's going to be tough for him. let me give two quick ways. he's going to challenge this legally one. he's going to argue you cannot charge a federal campaign violation in the race for president in state court. the other thing is, if you look at these business falsification records cases that have been brought in the past there usually wear a company falsifies a record takes out and goes and

uses it to commit a financial fraud to steal money from a bank from an investor from a customer . this is a little different. we're talking about campaign finance laws, so those are going to be too much. tions that maggie's right will go to a judge where they're going to ask the judge to knock these charges back. david urban. how do you think the former i mean, you know the former president? how do you think he is looking at this? so you know, i agree with maggie. it is, uh but a sobering fact that he is going to soon have to walk into that courtroom. excuse me into the into the court the courthouse there and be fingerprinted, put his hands up down and have his photograph taken and he's not gonna like it. he's not gonna like it at all. but he will come out and lean into it. as maggie said, agree. i completely agree with it. but you know, it is a completely sobering thing, and i think it's going to ah, it's going to affect him deeply. van jones. what would i mean, we there's still so many so much about these charges. we do not know. exactly and i think that

we need to wait and get more information, and we also need to start sticking up for alvin bragg. um you know, there is a group of people out there that say they're patriots. they have no respect for law enforcement. they beat up 100 cops in january six. they have no respect for the fbi. they call them the deep state and they have no respect for this prosecutor who is a law enforcement officer of his district trying to enforce the loss. um and the idea he's going to be smeared. he's going to be attacked this whole idea that he's george soros sponsored. most people don't know that goes into some very tricky territory in some parts of the right wing that focus on the fact that george soros is jewish. there's a lot of nasty stuff began to swirl here against this d a against its prosecutor, and he needs to be defended and protected. want to thank my job. find out what's actually going on. he needs to be defended in particular. want to think of my panel? our coverage continues right now. it's about 10 p.m. here in manhattan, where the