him last week. he was heartbroken. the whole family was and he talked about catherine stepped into his family's pain when they were going through a tragedy. she didn't shy away from it. she ran towards them to help. when we first heard what was happening, and we were huddled up, praying , crying, begging god that this wasn't even true. um we knew catherine was there. we knew this. she was the head of the school and my wife even said as much as i don't want to believe katherine is one of those that we're hearing about. i know her well enough to know she probably was doing everything she could to change this story to stop this. thing from happening to talk to this person. whatever she could do. stephen said to me last week, katherine story is not over. however he his family entire nashville community today, remembering katherine coons 59 years old. we wish all six families peace and strength in the days ahead. the news continues. cnn primetime special

inside the trump investigation starts now. a surreal moment. history made former president trump arrested and arraign cannot and will not normalized serious criminal conduct. 34 felony counts tied to alleged hush money payments felony crimes in new york state no matter who you are tonight, fact checking the former president's grievances. only crime that i have committed is to fearlessly defend our nation from those who seek to destroy it, comparing his charges to another infamous campaign finance case and answer the biggest questions. what's next for the manhattan case? this case is going to fall on its merits. well, before we get to a jury. what role does politics play in this prosecution as a nominee? would be much more difficult for prosecutors to then go to trial and convict him and which of the other probes could imperil the former president? next this is the least of the legal troubles.

we're seeing the special counsel making real strides. this is cnn prime time inside the trump investigation. but evening. i'm pamela brown major developments tonight in two of the cases and investigations involving donald trump, his former number two, says he will in fact testify about their conversations leading up to january. 6th former vice president, mike pence, will not appeal a ruling that he must testify in the justice department. special counsel investigation of attempts to overturn the election. so the question tonight. will trump appeal on executive privilege grounds and one day after trump pleaded not guilty inside of manhattan courtroom in the hush money case against him, he continues to attack america's rule of law and targets the judge in this case and also claims that the indictment helps him politically

. tonight one of donald trump's legal allies joins us live also we'll hear from a former federal judge on whether to expect a gag order as trump attacks the new york judge. plus you'll hear from the jury foreman who acquitted john edwards in a similar campaign finance trial, hear what he has to say and joining me live and studio a panel of great voices to analyze and make sense of this all, but we began with the news involving mike pitts. katelyn polantz joins us now live so kaitlin there's some big news out about this that our team is reporting when it comes to the special counsel investigation and testimony that had to do with seizing voting machines, right. that's right. so with mike pence , the former vice president, he announced today through a spokesperson that he is not going to appeal a court order saying yes to testify to a grand jury. pamela what that means is that he will be appearing before a federal grand jury in dc sometime in the coming weeks or days. we should very much expect

that now because of the position he is taking, so what had happened to arrive at this event , which is really an unprecedented situation of former vice president testifying about the person he was on the ticket with the person that he served under the former president of the united states, donald trump, mike pence, had been subpoenaed by the special counsel's office. and had initially resisted. he had gone to court, as had donald trump, trying to block some of his testimony. ultimately the judge in that case said yes, you do have to show up and testify in this criminal probe around january, 6th being conducted by federal investigators, and you're going to have to call to discuss direct conversations you may have had with president donald trump at the time, especially if trump was acting illegally, and so pence is expected to be showing up in the coming days, even if donald trump appeal oils. it would take a lot of mountains for him to move at the federal court for him to get an order that would block pads. he keeps losing every time he tries to block

someone's testimony. alright katelyn polantz thanks for the latest. their and trump's arrest and arraignment is just the first step in a long legal road ahead from manhattan, d. a alvin bragg. it's one thing to bring an indictment. but winning and conviction will be much more difficult. so let's bring in cnn's paula reed. what are the biggest hurdles brag, will face paula. well, pamela at a high level. this case is about buying and then trying to suppress potentially scandalous stories ahead of the 2016 election, but the way it's charged is 34 counts of falsifying business records, and they are charged as a felony and in order for these crimes to be a felony. you have to allege that this was part of a larger criminal scheme. and right now it's not clear what that other crime was. it doesn't have to be specified in the indictment. it was not specified in the statement. the facts. yesterday the district attorney had a press conference. he suggested that that other crime could be either a violation of state election law. or federal election law that was confusing

to people, but a source close to the case suggests to me that they could be engaging in a belt and suspenders approach here. but again, it's not clear if federal election violations would work here. the case law is not clear. also questions about whether this could be a state election offense. because this was again about a federal election. now the next hurdle that the district attorney will have to get over is intent motive and was there an intent to defraud here? the courts have interpreted that in some instances as trying to deprive someone of money or property and here, of course, he was paying michael cohen more than he actually owed him. but at least one appellate court has looked at this idea of intent to defraud and said well, it could potentially apply to depriving the public or the government of something and because there was a allegedly an effort to get around tax obligations. it could work. but again, it's a hurdle for prosecutors. and yet another hurdle that they'll have to get over. is the witnesses here. look at that. it's a cast of

colorful characters you have, for example, former adult film star stormy daniels and a disbarred and convicted felon michael cohen. but look criminal cases are always full of colorful people. people with prior convictions. when it comes to stormy daniels, she could still be a valuable witness to talk about the timing of this hush money payments, how it was executed. michael cohen could also be a valuable witness, but has prior convictions for lying and his repeated attacks against the former president. definitely make him vulnerable to defense attorney attacks, but i'm told by sources all of these allegations are also supported by documents, but the district attorney, pamela, he is a while to figure out how to get over these hurdles because the next hearing is not for eight months. i think a lot of us were surprised by that one. paula reed, thank you so much. donald trump may have been subdued in the manhattan courtroom, but as soon as he returned to mar-a-lago, he unleashed numerous attacks against the manhattan d a as well as the judge overseeing this case. i have a trump hating judge. with

the trump hating wife and family. whose daughter worked for kamala harris. and now receives money from the biden harris campaign and a lot of it. those attacks in spite of the judge's own warning to trump to not incite violence. i want to bring in mike davis, a trump legal ally, and former ger, such clerk, mike, thanks for your time tonight, so you just heard donald trump. that was just one of many attacks he made last night. why target the judge like that, in particular? well, i think president trump understands that this is a political prosecution against him by a george soros funded manhattan th let me just stop you right there. he's not he, george soros donated to a pack that then donated to alvin bragg. go ahead. okay so it was george soros's money that went to support alvin bragg's campaign. the prior manhattan d . a. declined to prosecute these

charges at alvin brags, urging when alvin bragg worked for the attorney general's office, the price that the manhattan us attorney declined to prosecute these charges. the federal election commission declined to prosecute these charges. and alvin bragg himself declined to prosecute these charges until he started taking heat from the left. and so then alvin bragg recruited the one of the top officials from the biden justice department, matthew colangelo, he was in the number three office in the biden justice department to come revive this dead case in and the manhattan d a s office. they brought these bogus political charges against president trump. and then he finds out that this judge actually donated to biden's campaign so that at least raises the appearance of impartiality. the appearance that this judge could be not be impartial against president trump throughout a lot there. let me just go back. in fact, check a

few things. first of all i bonds, who was the former day in manhattan. he said that the prosecutors of federal prosecutors asked him to step away from this case. that was something that they were looking at. at. the time we've heard from alvin bragg, saying that he developed new evidence, which is why this case was brought back. so those are a few aspects, but we're talking about the judge in particular. in this case, right? he trump went after this judge only hours after the judge warned him in that courtroom, do not engage in rhetoric that has the potential to cause harm to anyone to incite violence. was that was it wrong for former president trump to target the judge only hours after that. so i'm not understanding what president trump said there that could potentially incite violence, and i find it very interesting that the same democrats were criticizing president trump now because he's getting railroaded and new york were awfully quiet when democrats were running illegal

obstruction of justice campaigns out of supreme outside of supreme court justices homes for months still running them that led to a one am assassination attempt against justice kavanaugh, his wife, ashley, and their two teenage daughters. not sure about the democratic conspiracy, but that's that's not even what i'm asking you about. so let's focus on exactly what we're talking about. trump called the judge trump hating, he said this at trump hating judge that his daughter was involved in and democratic politics. and the concern is that, um, that that could go against exactly what the george judge had asked for in the courtroom because, as you well know, the former president has a fervent, devout group of followers. you know that. well, i mean, are these the same followers who tried to kill justice kavanaugh in his home? we're focusing on this topic work focusing on this topic, but how much of this has to do with trying to get the judge off of this case in your view? well i mean, if the judge has the

appearance of bias, which it looks like he does he donated to joe biden's campaign. he should get off this case in this judge has a history with president trump in prior cases, so maybe that's what president trump is referring to. this case is now moving into discovery. what kind of fight should we expect to see from the trump team? will lawyers tried to delay as much as they can pushing it towards the election? i don't understand why the lawyers would want to delay this case at all. it's a dog of a case, even the new york times and the washington post have pretty much laughed at this case. it's a it's a joke of a legal theory that alvin bragg is pursuing is clearly a political hit. he's colluding with matthew colangelo from the biden justice department to use legal dwarf lofty here to get trump and let me just say to we should note that one of the trump's attorneys joe tacopina, he openly says that the judge in this case is not by highest. that is important to note here. and what evidence do you have? that they are colluding in this

conspiracy that this former doj employee under biden is colluding in this conspiracy against trump? what evidence do you have? because i've heard you and other interviews bring up that same exact thing. well matthew colangelo was the worked . he was the number two to the number three and the biden justice department and then in december, alvin bragg hired him to go work in the manhattan d a s office. do you think that there were any conversations or do you think matthew colangelo just quit his job in the buying justice department and went and knocked on alvin bragg store in manhattan? clearly they had discussions and i hope that house judiciary committee chairman subpoenas those those records from the biden justice department and the communications between brag michelangelo. do you think that this will end up going to trial? it will probably go to trial because i don't think trump is going to get a fair hearing in new york when you have the democrat party machine picking these local manhattan trial judges and we haven't had a republican governor and new york

and 17 years and so there's no chance he's going to get a fair appeal. so, yes, this is going to go to trial. and when you have a 95% jury pool that hates donald trump. you know, i know he's not your evidence for that. what? what is your evidence that 95% hate donald trump? you're throwing a lot of stuff out there. and i just wondering what exactly you have specifically to back up your claims. so we know that the that we know that the manhattan d a took it was we took a million dollars in campaign support from two different packs, not just 12 different packs to support his campaign. so a million dollars from george soros. we know that this case was dead. it got a million dollars hold on. george soros gave a million dollars to a progressive pack that could progressive backpack gave half a million dollars. to alvin bragg . none of it was earmarked for bragg. george soros is reps say that they had never communicated. there was nothing of the sort but go ahead. that's the first one. there's also a second packed in new york pack.

that's you're talking. there are two different packs. so you should probably take a look at that when you're fact checking me, but so you have this soros funded d a bringing these bogus political charges, and you have a judge on this case who donated to trump's political opponent, joe biden. so you tell me if that looks like a fair tacopina say that the judge wasn't biased . he wasn't concerned about that. why? why did he say that? then? are you saying he was wrong? well i don't know. i'm not trump's lawyer. i don't have to go stand in front of this judge every day. i maybe joe understands that this judge is not going to move the venue here. he's not going to recuse from the case. he's gonna have to live with this judge who donated to joe biden's campaign so he doesn't want to anger him. alright we're gonna of course recusal. that's not the standard. this standard is appearance of bias. there is an appearance of bias when this judge don't donate it to joe biden, president trump's political opponents think that justifies trump to his millions of fervent develop. followers targeting the judge. i know we're kind of circling back and

we do have to end this soon, but i'm just wondering is that what you're implying that that then justifies trump? targeting the judge published by speaking out you don't think trump is allowed to speak out publicly saying that i'm not saying that he said it was trump can't criticize the well, i think there's a i think you have to look at the history of this judge with trump and prior lawsuits. i understand. wasn't this the judge who sent president trump 75 year old accountant to rikers island? i mean, there's a history here that trump is referring to, and we should note that michael bloomberg when he was a republican, first appointed this judge later on a democratic governor, and we're actually gonna speak to a retired judge later in the show to talk about all this, but mike davis really good to have you on and to hear your points in this case and defense of donald trump. we appreciate your time. thank you so much. thank you. thank you, and we're gonna break all of this down with my panel up next. plus could the failed case against john edwards help trump's defense. the jury foreman, who acquitted edwards joins me live. and all these

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trump's kind of nailed it is people are really fired up about this. like, why has this happened? yeah like they don't see the merit and everything that's going on. and you just heard there. some reaction to the manhattan district attorney's case against former president trump. legal experts from both sides are also divided on whether the prosecution prosecution is a risky one. should the d a have charged the former president? and does the case have what it needs to make it to trial? joining me now? robert ray, former counsel for president, former president trump and his first impeachment trial, areva, martin, attorney and cnn legal analyst instead. herndon scene and political analyst and national political reporter for the new york times. and tom nichols, staff writer for the atlantic and author of our own worst enemy, the assault from within on modern democracy . alright all star panel right here. i'm going to start with you, areva. you just heard the conversation i had with mike davis. he is in a legal ally of donald trump. and i'm wondering what your take is after hearing what he had to say. defending

the former president. yeah, i think he had his facts wrong and a lot of points and he made statements that have just been proven to be false. like he made the statement that, uh, alvin bragg is somehow going after trump. he's you know, purposely targeting him rather than acknowledging first of all, alvin bragg has filed 30 of these kinds of false business records cases. since he's been in office. he's only been in office about a year, so there's no evidence absolutely no evidence that this is a you know, political prosecution of donald trump or that he has been targeted. so you know, that has been what the allies of donald trump of set any evidence and i didn't hear any evidence. you get basket never responded to that question. we keep hearing that time and time again, there could be disputes about whether this case is the case that's going to finally land donald trump in jail or not, but clearly, alvin bragg has brought a case that he says is well researched, well thought out and was methodical. and he presented it to the grand jury and they came back with this indictment. legal experts can disagree about

what's going to happen, but there is no doubt that this case is a case that would have been brought even if someone didn't have the name of donald trump, and that's just the reality of the fact that has been presented to date pointed out to mike davis. robert alvin bragg said that he had developed new evidence and that is part of why this case was brought back to brag, says that trump invited david pecker, the ami executive who was part of that catch and kill scheme to the white house, trump brought him there to thank him for his help during the campaign that he pushes attorney to wait until after the election. regarding the payment of stormy daniels because then it wouldn't matter. so he's trying to make the case here that falsifying these records are directly tied to election interference in trying to promote his his candidacy. what do you say to that? well, first , i think it was a poor exercise of discretion, which is sort of my bottom line. having thought about this now for the over the course of the past 24 hours or so. and i say that because it's a rather strange, i think a lot of people have come to a sort of

a gathering consensus that it's a rather strained legal theory on which you're trying to hang your hat of turning what otherwise are misdemeanors and felonies. so to answer your question about the link to, uh, campaign act or election act violation, it's a rather strange occurrence to charge if the underlying or the underpinning of this is a state election violation. the one that was specified was conspiracy to prevent or promote the election of a candidate. all 34 of these counts. however all talk about records that were entered on the books of the trump organization in 2017. after the election, so it's a span of time between february of 2017 and approximately nine months later until december of 2017 that all these entries were made. it's a little hard to understand just as a factual matter how that is promoting. or preventing the election of a candidate with regard to an election. that's

over. um i mean, i guess i could understand that if you charge it in the context of a conspiracy, but this indictment doesn't charge conspiracy. it charges 34. substantive counts. of books and records violations in which that what is charged is that it was with the intent, um to commit another offense and that other offense, you know, parenthetically, i don't think can be a federal election campaign act violation because, although it's not been quite tested yet, in this context, there seems to be at least some law out there from the second department, which is another jurisdiction within new york state. other than manhattan to the effect that other crime refers to other state crimes in new york state, not other states of the union and certainly not federal crimes, which would include the federal government and the federal election campaign act. so i'm just gonna stop you right there because we have limited time and i want to get to you instead and tom, but but on that note let's listen to what side, bonds said. of

course, ivan's was the former d a in manhattan about this point about the election interference , which would make this a felony, according to brag, let's listen. it is an area of law that has not been fleshed out in new york. we never did a case involving where the object crime was an election law violation election law violations are quite specific. you know, they're quite technical, so i do think that the first run of the defense will be to attack the legal basis for the charges in the hopes that they can knock the felony counts out and leave. and as you've heard, i'm sure there's a lot of analysts who said look, there's a pretty strong case for the misdemeanor part of this, which has a statute of limitations of two years. but on the felony aspect, this is shaky legal ground. do you think that alvin bragg has enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it felony was committed? given that the untested nature of this

reason to believe that alvin bragg, who has been a prosecutor for more than 20 years, he said it during his press conference would bring a case that he did not believe that he could be successful and get being a conviction on and he didn't just say that the underlying case or the secondary crime i should say relates to either state or federal campaign election violations. he also talked about new york state laws, and the indictment just has to put the defendant on noticed he doesn't have to tell his entire case in that indictment. and people may not like the fact that he didn't you know, lay out his entire case in the way that they would like for him to do, but that's not what new york law required him to do. it was indictment to put trump unnoticed. there will be a discovery. there will be motions that will be filed in the between now and that next december, a date and we will learn more. about what that secondary crime is. but let me ask you this because you are right. melvyn bragg said that the law doesn't require me to include in the indictment. but do you think there was a public duty tom to include more

information about that additional crime? what do you think? well, i'm not a lawyer. so i will say as a political matter, um, i think, um, given the idea that the law as i understand it doesn't require him to stipulate. which underlying offenses there. um it seems to me just looking at as a lay person that you wouldn't want to lay all your cards on the table ahead of time and inform your opposition of what you're actually going to do before you do it. um, i think what's interesting about this, and it just goes back to your conversation with your first guest. um no one's really disputing what happened there simply saying that as a technical matter, it can't be prosecuted in new york, which i find. i think it tells you how far down we've fallen as a democracy that the whole argument is not that trump didn't do any of this. it's that he you know that there might be a shaky prosecution and that somehow alvin bragg is willing to drive off a cliff. after a 20 year career. i mean, it just it

seems like the wrong conversation. the rest of it will be figured out in court. how do you think the voters across the country or viewing the merits of this case instead ? from what we have of kind of early snap polling of this? it says that we've seen a lot of americans say that they find the charges believable in the factual nature, but also find that it could be politically motivated. i think to tom's point, there is an understanding of donald trump as someone who has broken norm, if not law very publicly. and it seems to have seeped in public. but i what i think is different here is what donald trump is doing is a political driven defense. you know, there's the legal question of how they're going to fight this in new york, but, you know, i was talking to my colleague, our colleague maggie haberman today and she was saying that part of the reason he targeted those the judge yesterday was trying to put pressure they think to make them work use and so their biggest thing that's going to be able that donald trump is really going to focus on in between now and the next time he sees in courtroom is to use the vehicle that his his present. densham campaign to create a kind of court of public

opinion that may find this. not maybe maybe might while maybe merited on a factual level, different from the political reality does it seem then? like the message? you just heard it from mike davis talking about the judge elephant back that is resonating. i don't. i don't know if we can say it's resonating, but we can say that that's the ground which this is going to be, father. i mean, that is clearly what i think we see coming out of the trump wing, and i think that's definitely what we're going to see going forward. and so it's not. it's not. you know, donald trump can seem very happy, passionate and often very much is but there are also moments in which this is a person knowing how to use that megaphone and from the spectacle that was created yesterday, i was outside that courtroom. it's not necessarily the same level of energy we've seen from trump in the past, but every piece of objective evidence tells us that the republican electorate has gotten closer to him in the last month, not further away. let's be honest. i mean, going after a judge when you're indicted like he is very different than what he's done in the past. going after judges, right? i mean, this judge could control his future going after a judge is

family and the family to that confident and he and his lawyers thought this was all gonna get blown out of court in five minutes. ah i doubt that he and other parts of the right wing media ecosystem because this charges they they've been putting the daughter's face out there. they've been attacking her. um that's not the kind of thing you do if you think you're sitting pretty and remember that, you think, robert, i hear that, and it's an important point. nobody wants to put anybody's public officials family. um at risk. um but on the other hand, having sat in the chair and having been on the receiving end as an independent counsel of incoming flak, so to speak, um, you know that's unavoidable. you know, everybody put their their crash helmets on that. you know this is going to get ugly. and fundamentally, though the president the former president has a point, which is that he what he's owed here. is fairness. and if he if he feels that, you know, threatened by

the fact that he's not going to be treated fairly. it's understandable to have a reaction. i will say finally, i think we're going to rue the day. mark my words that we are traveling down this road with regard to using the political process using the legal process to do damage with regard to one's political opponents. i don't see how this can be perceived any other way. whatever you think the merits of that are we are unavoidably in this case going to be right smack in the election in the middle of that election cycle. do you think you should be immune? then if you've committed say you committed a crime, and then if you run for president you should be immune from doesn't mean it doesn't mean the president is above the law. or i do think in the future, some serious consideration is going to have to be given. since presidents and vice presidents are different. they're the only two officials in this country that are elected by all the people. i think that while the president is serving in office, he cannot be touched. and that's the department of justice's policy with regard to this once somebody leaves office, it's fair game. but this is the

unusual situation of leaving office and he's a presidential candidate. i'm suggesting that there may come a time where we have to think seriously about tolling of statute of limitations and wait for the political process to play out before we ever start touching presidential candidates with regard to prosecution. i think that's a mistake and i don't think it's in the country's best interest is so absurd that we cannot prosecute him while he's in office. then once he gets out of office, and he becomes a citizen and we still have to treat him as if he's some kind of king, if as if he is somehow immune from the same laws that are applicable to you, and i and everyone else and again, thank you, tom, for mentioning no one's talking about the fact that he didn't do this. so even if it's a misdemeanor, we're talking about the president of the united states being indicted for mister meaner so the president should be held to a higher standard, not a lesser standard. so if we want the president to be somehow immune from prosecution than the president need not or should not

engage in the kind of conduct that would lead to indictment and prosecution. right you'll stay with us, though, because i know we all want to have sex, so it's so much more and we're going to get another opportunity later in the show, but we do have to move on to some other things before we get to that, so hang on to that thought. we're going to speak with a former federal judge next on whether a gag order is coming up next. compared with other choose one perfecto chew protects from fleas and ticks for 12 weeks, nearly three times longer used with caution and dogs with the history of seizures or neurological disorders. protection that lasts longer. bravo bravo, ecto bravo! sometimes one thing leads to another thing. then all of a sudden it's on with roman. you can take care of erectile dysfunction discreetly. so whenever the moment happens, you're ready. roman ready? do you ever worry will live forever. no it's literally never crossed my mind. we live to like

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not make comments that could potentially incite violence or jeopardize anyone's safety. joining me now former federal judge nancy gertner hi. thank you so much for coming on. so given trump's history in his remarks last night is this something that should push the judge to issue a gag order? we know he mentioned the first amendment concerns yesterday, but hours later, we heard what trump said. i think the judge has to take some time to decide whether to put in a gig. order the gag order. we don't do that very often. you have to show that it's a substantial likelihood that this will impair, uh, you know, undermined the fairness of the trial and we've seen it. in other cases. you recall roger stone round up with a gag order, but the judge kept on warning him and he did the same thing. then she. then the judge warned him again and finally entered a gag order. so um, the question is what the judge is going to do next. uh you know, but he's certainly on a path to a gang a gag order if

he continues like this, and trump isn't out as allies have also made comments not just about the judge but also the judge's daughter and her work for a firm that worked on the biden harris campaign. trump's lawyer has said. this doesn't constitute a threat. there shouldn't be a concern about this. here's what he said. president trump heard the judge . he's not that anything to try to incite violence. it's not an attack on the judge or certainly his family. no one is suggesting that anything should happen to the judge's family. president trump's comments did not in any way, shape or form incite violence or anyone else. in fact, do you agree that there is no concern there that his comments could have harmed the judge or his family? i don't agree. i think that is that is coming. certainly put a target on his family. the most extraordinary thing is showing the daughter's picture. and when you step back from this what is he saying that a daughter worked for a form that firm that did work for the for kamala harris.

i mean, if that's a basis for a recusal, judge clarence thomas wouldn't be sitting on almost any case involving the trump white house. um so i mean, i think they i don't think that it's a threat. yet but putting her picture on goodwill. turn into them. and you and you mentioned clarence thomas because his wife is a conservative activist. alright judge nancy gertner. yeah right. thank you so much for your time . we appreciate your insights. touch money case draws strong parallels to the one that ultimately ended john edwards political career. the jury foreman, who acquitted edwards joins us next wait till you hear his perspective. on this case. all across the country. people are working hard to build a better future, so we're hard at work, helping them achieve financial freedom, providing greater access to investing with low cost options to help maximize savings. from the plains to the coasts. we help

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so they can do more of what matters. benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. or visit angel view .com. call 1 803 731891 order now. good morning, everyone we do begin with breaking news this morning. a mistress, hush money and a scheme to hide an affair while running for president sounds exactly like the case against donald trump. but in fact those are the same circumstances in a case involving former democratic senator john edwards. the year was 2008. edwards was running for president when he enlisted a close aide to facilitate the payment of nearly a million dollars to hide his affair from voters. much like michael cohen did with stormy daniels. both cases also involves star witnesses whose credibility is in question. cohen of course, after initially lying about the details, and on the edwards side

, andrew young, who was labeled as inconsistent the role of politics, also playing a part in both cases, trump and republicans called the d, a democrat, abusing his power. and the edwards case. democrats did the same thing against a bush appointed u. s attorney. there are differences. however we want to note that the payments of the edwards case continued after he quit the race. stormy daniels received a one time payment before the election. edwards case a federal one, while trump has been charged at the state level. also in the edwards case , the money was from rich donors , and in trump's case, his own pocket. edwards was ultimately acquitted. now we don't know yet if trump's case will make it to trial, but prosecutors are intent on putting it before a jury. given the parallels between this case, let's get perspective now from the jury, foreman and the edwards trial. david rashawn. thank you so much for joining us, so you clearly dealt with similar facts here

right? a hush money payments scheme to benefit a political campaigns and i'm curious. what are your thoughts about the trump indictment in this case that alvin bragg has laid out so far. yeah thank you. pamela appreciate the opportunity to chat about this. i think the key difference that i see in this one is that it feels a little bit more political than it did back in the john edwards case, and i know there were politics involved, but at the time it felt you didn't feel the same circus kind of feeling as you do today. and tell me a little bit more about that. why do you think it feels more political? i know that you're talking about the circus. but is it because the d a is was a democrat? he was elected. what makes it feel that way to you? i think that's one of the things certainly the fact that the d, a kind of came out with one attitude and then went and changed to another attitude. i felt the same way

about, um, when, when this case came on, michael cohen had one point of view and then went to another point of view. i'm not sharing my political feelings here. i'm just saying that the reality is there are so many comparisons of what we saw with the edwards case. so what would you need? to see if you were a juror in this case. what would you need to see from prosecutors to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a felony was committed? i think that's a great question, and i think that's the one that everybody should be focused in on. the first thing i'd want to see is a star witness that has some credibility and that credibility has to be backed up by facts. that's number one. the second thing i think is necessary is a you know, a jury comes in with we all have emotions. we all have feelings and opinions and

biases. and i'm not. i'm not suggesting that you have to find people that don't have those. but i am suggesting you have to find a group of people that are willing to put those aside so that you can focus in on the facts. yes you have said that the jury in the john edwards case was united, not unanimous, but united remind viewers again. what made you in the jury decided to acquit john edwards. why wasn't there? why did you feel like there wasn't enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt he was guilty. yeah yeah, first of all, um, it was a hung jury, meaning that we couldn't. we couldn't get all 12 of us to agree. um with the decision that was number one, and the second thing i felt like is in with our group. we were very we were very united and focusing in on the facts. and we had a phenomenal group of people

a great jury. everybody was focused on the right thing, which was getting the facts and the case couldn't be built strong enough. and you know, it definitely came down to the credibility of that. the key witness and so in this case, michael cohen is the key witness. what do you think? ah! i'd rather not give too many opinions on this. i like to stay away from the politics of it, but i would i will say that i see a lot of the similarities. you see a lot of similarities. all right. well that is telling david rashawn. thank you. and i totally respect you not wanting to get into the politics of this. thank you so much for coming on the show tonight. yeah absolutely. my pleasure. thank you, pamela. well, this historic indictment of former president trump is taking the 2024 presidential election into uncharted territory. the potential impact on his rivals and his supporters up next. your

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more than talking, personalized plan. built on insights and innovative technology. you get grid vision. and the creativity to guide you through a changing world old school grid. new world ideas. morgen stanley, what does it mean to be ever better? it's your customers getting what they ordered when they expected discover how rider e commerce makes your customers' experience ever better. the universe, does it? big bang , wonderful pistachios get cracking. this fake case was brought only to interfere with the upcoming 2024 election. and it should be dropped immediately. former president

and now defendant. trump is aiming to galvanize voters as the legal case against him in the new york collides with his third presidential run. his team has until august 8th to file any motions in the case. the first year primary debate is also scheduled for that month. the next hearing and the hush money case is slated for december. 4th prosecutors are asking for a genuine, very 2024 trial. one month before the iowa caucuses. trump's team, however, is pushing for spring 2024, which would put the trial squarely in the heart of the primary process . if there is going to be a trial back with us now, instead , herndon and tom nichols, tom i know you wanted to make a point or earlier segments. i'm going to allow you to do that, but also get your take on how the legal calendar in the political calendar are aligning. in this case, they're actually related. one of the points i want to make, however, is when robert ray says, if you go into a

process like this. you have to buckle up and put your helmet on. that's true. but your children shouldn't have to do that, and that's one of the things that i think is judge gertner point that i shouldn't have to do that. but when it comes to the political calendar here, um it does go back to the thing we were talking about earlier while i'm running for president, you can't touch me now, um, you know, as though that's some kind of theory of politics, and it's a we're living in a bizarro world where all the other candidates who would be happy to knock trump out of the primaries. aren't touching him. and you know you've you've got ron desantis basically offering him sanctuary in florida. it's a very strange situation, in part because trump just dominates this issue with the with the republican base, but they're not doing yeah, exactly. it's about the base right. they know that it's popular with the base to be on trump's side when it comes to this issue. trump for his part, is saying that he's raised what $10 million. this campaign has raised $10 million because of this, do you see that trend continuing to see when those numbers come out? you know they've inflated numbers before,

but it certainly seems as if things have driven toward him. he's really motivating those activists base of the republican class and really trying to drive that energy to your point. they have created a whole victimhood narrative around this campaign that this indictment speaks to and we should remember. as we talked about this political calendar, there could be more and there's still more investigations. there could be more indictments in the future, which would allow the him to continue to block out the sun from those other candidates that nikki haley's of the world. the ron desantis is of the world have not shown the willie in this to really use this to directly attack donald trump because they do not believe there is space to do so among enough of the republican electorate, even the folks who aren't supporting donald trump but who are remain. republicans have largely said they still find these charges to be political, and i'm not seeing it as a reason to reject his candidacy. i was just at the rnc a couple months ago, and someone told me that the very big, if any, if any plan for victory for republicans going forward cannot be anti trump that because that

is who republicans are even if they have to change style. even if they have to change policy, it cannot. there is no future of republicans. that's anti trump. how that interacts with the legal case now threatens. to fascinating actually, instead. herndon tom nichols, thank you both much more on trump's legal troubles coming up on cnn tonight, plus alyson camerota talks to a grammy winning musician calling on country music stars to help in what he calls america's obsession with guns. stay tuned for that. change change happens so fast. for the life you're making has it?

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