after the youth market right. they are the ones who are most likely to see transgender americans in a positive light compared to older americans who are far less likely to and i think that just speaks to what brands generally try and do as they try to attract young business and that's what they're doing here. what do you make of it? i mean, they haven't really backed off of the campaigns of our despite the backlash that you've seen from people like kid rock and others. these are multi billion dollar corporations. when they make a strategic marketing move like this. there's tons of data behind it that shows it's likely to support their business to harry's point, but the other thing is calculate the risk we've seen so many brands take risks with their marketing campaigns. and sometimes they step in it. think about pepsi and kettle gender gender. but then sometimes it works out to be really effective. i think the eminem's controversy earlier this year the joke was on tucker carlson and a bunch of other conservatives when they came out and sort of spelling that commercial on its head. and so i think if you're a brand like bud light, you look at this campaign and you say this is going to target positively the customers that we want to target if we

face backlash will survive it. and who are we facing backlash from honestly, it's people who i assume a year or two down the road if they're stopping at a gas station in the thirsty for beer, they're going to still buy the beer. okay but to be fair here, like there are some real serious issues here. you had a florida legislator this week, calling transgender people, mutants and demons and you have kid rock shooting beer cans because he's upset that they have someone who's transgender as a part of their you know, marketing campaign. what's happening is transgender people already filled targeted. they already face an outsized amount of violence. and here we are again. jennings something up for what for what? what is the endgame here, people exist. they should be able to exist in their bodies the way they are, and instead you're hearing these these horrible things about transgender people, and they are going to be targets of violence . the more this sort of thing

happens. that is the fear here. we'll see. i mean, the question is just of course, about what it means, you know, for everyone going forward in the community overall. everyone thank you so much. sarah fisher. abby. phillip harrington, sarah signer . thank you. everyone for joining us. alison camerata is up next and ellison. i hear that you have something new that is happening tonight at 11. what can you tell us? okay, so it's a panel of four of our fabulous reporters. they're going to share their scoops with us tonight, and they're going to give us tomorrow's news tonight because they have insight into what's happening tomorrow. so everybody tune in at 11 tonight, east coast time. alright, can we to watch. thanks. alison katelyn polantz eu good evening, everyone. i'm alison camerata. welcome to cnn tonight, one day after the mass shooting at the bank in louisville, kentucky, police releasing body cam video and images of the shooter, a 25 year old bank employee. he killed five people with an ar 15 style rifle that he bought legally and tonight we show you video of the confrontation with

police. one rookie officer still fighting for his life. he's shooting straight to these windows right towards the officer. when bill depletes somehow to get there and pull them down from the stairs. as always here, we're looking for solutions to this uniquely american nightmare. the governor of tennessee says he has a plan for preventing more deranged people from getting guns, so we'll look at that, plus what's happening in san francisco this week, a huge flagship whole foods announced that it would have to shut down to ensure the safety of their employees are panel dives into that crime wave and is honking your horn free speech. we'll tell you about the california woman who ended up in court for honking her horn and how that turned out. but let's bring in our panelists we have with us tonight. josh barrow, who's the host of the very serious podcast. we have. linette lopez, columnist for the insider. coleman hughes is the host of conversations with

coleman podcast, and moceanu is the founder of mo news. also joining us is retired nypd sergeant and detective sleep, rodriguez. everyone great to have you here tonight. thanks so much for being here. sergeant rodriguez. i want to start with you because we see the body cam video. it's been at least tonight of what happened in the bank. and once again we see the incredible bravery of the police who showed up within minutes and who ran towards the gunfire who ran towards the active shooter. so let me just play this for you. and you can tell me what you see happening here in this video. so they are going down. i think he's down your do after off now. yeah, you can down the stairs.

i think he's down. now expect to get the officer okay? no, he's down the officer. sergeant it's so powerful to see what we're asking our police officers to do in cities across the country every single week, and even with that bravery, and even though they arrived three minutes later, there were still five people killed. well if we see and we analyzed the use of

force, we really have to give credit to these offices the way they went in there from the moment that they arrive, and they will be sieged by gunfire. you know, you see the rookie officer being guided in by his field training officer and basically telling him where to set up and the moment they even arrived with the car they hit. you know, gunfire is heading their way. so it actually shows that they're in an ambush situation. and one of the things that we learned tactically is when we're being ambushed. we have two separate time and space, so we see that tactical retreat that they do. they set up immediately. they pull out their heavy weapons. there are 15 and you have a brand new rookie police officer with 10 days and here he is engaging in this in this violent, you know, bank robbery that we have multiple homicides. and at the end of the day, you see the way the officer had to pull out and it's almost very rare, but they quickly reassessed themselves. they went in there and try to handle the situation. and here they are. there are gun the rookie police officers with a

standard nine millimeter and you have a gunman with an a r 15 that has high velocity rounds and he is able to shoot at a greater distance. uh i just feel bad for the training, you know, also from the other department there because from that department at the end of the day , he lost one of his trainees, and for him, that's got to be something that you know it's going to be very difficult for him to deal with. yeah i mean, sergeant, we feel bad for everyone involved. but as you say, they're outgunned. how to police. what do police want to have happened? about all of the guns and the r 15 style rifles that are on the streets. what i tell people is we need to reach some sort of common sense, you know? and i understand. you know , as a police officer, i know i have to uphold the constitution and the values and i do, but we have to have a common sense approach on the federal level. the way we have it now we have so many hodgepodge, different laws. you know, you go to new york and you have one. firearm with 10 rounds and now you're violating the law. you know you go to another state. you're good

with 10 rounds, you travel over to the state of new jersey f hollow points. now you become a criminal, so we really need on a national level to recognize that we need common sense gun laws, and it needs to be put in place and rapidly because the shootings are becoming, it's an epidemic. sergeant stand by. if you would i want to bring in my panel, josh your thoughts tonight. i mean, it's obviously it's tragic as these things are, even though they happen over and over again. i mean, you know, the u. s has really outsized level of gun death compared to other advanced countries in the world. the vast majority of those gun deaths occur with handguns and majority of them are suicides. and so the problem that we have is tremendous compared to these other countries. it also generally does not look in the way it looks that looks on television, and so you can have we can have measures like red flag laws that will affect very high profile things that we see. like maybe maybe the shooting that we saw in tennessee maybe it would have been affected by red flag law. maybe not. you can prohibit certain kinds of firearms and that will produce benefits of

the margin, but by and large if you have a country where you were generally able to own a handgun, if you wish to handcuff, you're an adult, and you have a tremendous number of guns out there and circulation. you're going to have a higher rate of gun deaths, both homicides and suicides. then you have another country. so the sort of the toolkit that we end up talking about in response to these shootings is basically tinkering around the edges of a very large problem that could only be addressed in two to a much greater extent. if we had a complete change in the political culture in this country, and frankly a change in the constitution, i don't think either of those are likely. well, let's talk about what the governor of tennessee is proposing because he wants to see something done, and so i find it hard to believe that red flag laws wouldn't have stopped this because this person was, um at least in the bank, uh, sending an email saying he was feeling suicidal. i mean, that's what the dispatcher knew about. and so here is what the governor of tennessee where the school shooting was is suggesting now. first i'm asking. the general assembly to bring forth a new

order of protection law. our current law. is proven and effective. in many circumstances , many circumstances especially with regard to domestic violence , but this new, stronger order protection law will provide the broader population. cover safety from those who are in danger. to themselves or to the population . so lynette, what he's talking about is that currently for domestic violence, people who have been arrested for domestic violence there in that state, they have to relinquish their guns basically voluntarily to a third party, not even to police . they have to relinquish them to a third party, but he's suggesting what i think is called red flag laws in other states. yeah, he's not using the word gun in any thing that he says so i think now we're starting to see the development of kind of a republican way of talking about tinkering around the edges. kind of way of talking about gun control. that doesn't use the word gun. and so

maybe if we have this kind of language, and we talk to each other in that way, um will will make some headway. but i think for those on the left who really want to see gun control safety protection. that kind of language is not going to be enough. but it is better than republicans just kind of having nothing to say about this, which is where we've been. it's actually one of those phrases is already being phased out by some of the gun control. gun reform is the word they're using, right and already to some republicans. red flag laws is gun confiscation. among those republicans is the speaker of the tennessee legislature. cameron sexton, so notably was with the governor last week when he was announcing school security measures, not with him today. we think that's why he meaning. he doesn't support him today, or he's not standing with him right. so far, he has been a critic of red flag laws. which they're not calling red flag laws but effectively their red flag loss. so it's notable. you have a republican here with a super majority republican legislature has had faces an

uphill climb talking to tennessee residents today. they're saying, well, this is something they're hopeful they're skeptical. but ultimately, um, you know, it is notable that you had a republican here and in both cases by the kentucky, tennessee, both governors personally impacted. the governor of tennessee and his wife were supposed to have dinner with when the teachers killed at the school two weeks ago. and we know that the can't kentucky governor lost two friends in the shooting. yeah i mean, i you know if you don't have red flag laws, the gun confiscation thing is a little after the fact. so i think most americans would see that as kind of just chilling, you know? it's not. it's not really going to help in some of these cases, ultimately, whatever we want to call them, whether we call them red flag laws or not. there's no path to reducing these mass shootings without making it more difficult for some subset of people to get guns, right? i don't think we saw we've seen now. twice in a row, very clean by the book police responses.

that have not stopped people from getting killed. maybe they've reduced the number, but they haven't stopped it. the notion that, um having security guards located on every possible side of a mass shooting, first of all, it's probably unfeasible. second of all, even if it could be done, i don't think we could expect security guards to put their lives on the line. reliably already seen it. there were guards in the supermarket. i mean, there have been security guards at mass shootings, and it doesn't stop them, so there's just no way around. the fact that it has to become harder for certain people to get guns. what we call that may be an issue of branding, and it is important, but that's the core. the limitation of the red flag law approaches that you can't perfectly predict in advance. who's going to commit crimes. so either you know you can in certain other countries if you're in japan. then you have no presumptive right tone organ. and so if they if there is a suspicion that you are someone who should not own a gun, the government can take it away from you in the united states. that is not that's not constitutional. it's also not

consistent with political public opinion. and so then you have the burden on the government in some way or another. to show that somebody is dangerous. you're not always going to maybe be able to make that showing about someone who, in fact, sometimes you can. sometimes you can't help. but the market morning sun. in most of these cases, people have said something to their parents. that's really worrisome. or to their friends, or they posted something online or to their coworkers. they often shoot off warning signs first, but there are a lot of things about a lot of people you can call warning signs. i mean, like one in three americans has a mental health diagnosis. the when you when you come up with with with with criteria like that, you end up either being overbroad or because you can't legally be overbroad. then it becomes quite quite easy for some people who really shouldn't own a gun. they'll be able to meet whatever the standard is under the law, and they still will be able to own a gun. that's the difficulty of any regime where you're basically trying to predict in advance. who's going to commit a crime? even if it's too narrow, i would argue. you know, reducing if we were able to reduce these high profile mass shootings by 10 20% i think that would be that would be something

i agree. i i'm in favor of red flag laws. i'm not opposed to them. i'm just i'm just trying to set expectations about exactly the extent to which this will change the climate of gun violence point, massachusetts. we're looking at the numbers. 2021 massachusetts only used it eight times in new mexico only used 12 times in chicago, a handful of times in a place like chicago so ultimately, maybe desperate prevented in those cases, but we're really only talking about you know, in two hands, all right. thank you all very much for this conversation, sergeant. thank you very much now to this open air drug markets. tech executive stabbed to death now a huge whole foods is shutting down because of crime. what's going on in san francisco? that's next. you're doing business in an a app drivn multi cloud world. that's why you choose vm ware with flexible multi cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control helps you keep your cloud options open.

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your lawn back with scotts turf builder to ripple action. it gets three jobs done at once. swedes prevents cab gas and keeps it growing strong. get a bag of scots triple action today , it's guaranteed feed it. the whole foods market in one san francisco neighborhood, closing its doors over worries about worker safety that city struggling to deal with a wave of open drug use and crime. the company is shutting down its flagship location in the mid market part of the city after just one year. in a statement, the store says, quote to ensure the safety of our team members. we have made the difficult decision to close the trinity store for the time being, all team members will be transferred to one of our nearby locations. my panel is back with me. so uh , motion what's happening in san francisco? it's a combination of several issues. you have an opioid crisis. you have a mental health crisis. you have crime. you have housing affordability, and you have a lack of office

occupancy so sort of abandoned areas during the day. add that all up as mushrooming issues. now stack that on top of san francisco police department that is way below initial staffing levels was told basically, during george floyd, you're doing a bad job. lot of them basically, their times respond to crime have gone down whole bunch of factors there. they have recruitment issues, and lot of them are just not really policing the same way they were. add that all up and you have a major problem on your hands. it's a comprehensive problem, and it's not just one issue, according to the san francisco standard, this whole foods store previously had to reduce its operating hours last year because of theft, and it had to change his bathrooms after employees found syringes and pipes in there. i also read that they wouldn't allow they couldn't let customers use those hand baskets. because they have started a year ago with 250 of them, and they've all been stolen. so you had to shop without a handbasket.

incredible. look this is happening in a lot of places. to some extent, it's happening in new york, and i'm gonna tell you something. you may not believe me, but it's true. my local pharmacy. every single toothpaste is behind glass. every single tube of toothpaste. every single tube of toothpaste. toothpaste is behind glass, so i cannot go to my local pharmacy and buy toothpaste without calling the clerk over to unlock it. why is that so top secret? why is that 2000? what i asked them. i asked. why is all the toothpaste and not just the toothpaste, but that's that's the most annoying to me, because that's something i have to buy all the time. i brushed my teeth a lot so i asked them, and he just said two words. people steal. that's it. people steal it and they resell it on amazon marketplace you can you can take the stuff used or any any other consumer products like if you if you order toothpaste or deodorant from amazon, sometimes coming from amazon .com, but sometimes it's coming from a marketplace seller who is selling as a third party on that platform, and there is a significant problem with things that are stolen from retail stores. they get diverted and then resold online so that it's not that people are stealing

toothpaste because they need to brush their teeth. they're stealing toothpaste and detergent and things like this, so that so that they can resell them. this particular area in san francisco. i mean, this is it's right by the tenderloin. this is an area this this area has always been a problem, and it was sort of up and coming prior to covid, and then the combination of factors that most describes their particularly mean to say this is not very far from the twitter headquarters. it is an area where there had been a lot of offices going in. a lot of new residents is going in, and it is really been hit hard by covid with people just not being on the ground in the city and the way the way they were, so i'm sure in addition to the conditions in the store being horrible, the customer base that was supposed to be there was just not around the store in the way that it was supposed to be. and so it's not surprising to me that this is a particular location where whole foods would not thrive and they choose to close. it actually have a friend who was on a business trip to san francisco just a few weeks ago. he was staying about a 10 minute walk from this whole foods store. he walked to it, he said the walk was so horrifying that he took an uber back from whole foods

because the neighborhood wasn't wasn't such bad conditions. so there's lots of these problems. but this is this is probably one of the worst neighborhoods in the country. in terms of this, this kind of deterioration of the places where you might have thought to locate a whole foods just a few years ago. i have a question, though. where is civil society in san francisco? where are the community leaders? where are the wealthy billionaires like in new york city when we had our crisis in the 19 seventies and eighties like we had a bunch of rich people who got together and tried to figure out how to fix the city like where is that? where are the tech barons? why is elon musk on twitter? instead of helping sanfran? you know what i mean? like where is that kind of civic pride and i guess i think to kind of the ethos of silicon valley and like they let silicon valley bank their community bank collapse, so i guess the city doesn't really matter much. what's the answer that does anybody know the answer to that? where is everybody helping san francisco? why is it in shambles look, isn't the more fundamental whole question. i mean, look, that's a question but isn't the more fundamental question when we're talking about crime where the cops right, if you if the cops are diminished by a large percent as we saw in minneapolis, right, you saw hundreds of cops retiring. crime

goes up. and as you said, the time in responding to 911 calls goes up. criminals notice that that has an effect on people's incentives, right? that is the fundamental question. i don't think i understand there's lots of other factors. but we can't ignore this central factor of the cops are the first responders to crime and when you defang them when you defund them when you diminish them, this is what happens. one person there described policing in san francisco, a similar to now being a firefighter. whereas there's policing that isn't necessarily always reactive. and then they become reactive. we're not gonna do anything because we're getting trouble and stuff. we're gonna just wait for stuff to happen. and then maybe we'll get to it because you guys don't like us anyway. but these are public employees. they work for us. it's their job to act proactively and i understand there are police officers who felt disrespected. they're legally entitled to retire. you need to find somebody who can work in these departments who is willing to do that job, and i think, partly that's a problem for liberals. mad. iglesias had a really interesting piece about this this week that you know you had teach for america and you

had this whole effort to get people to enter the public education system because of this idea that it was not working properly and it needed new personnel. you could have something like that for policing if the people who were the incumbent police at the san francisco police department don't feel like waking up in the morning and doing their jobs you need to find and hire somebody else to do that. that might be expensive. i mean, if you want to change the conditions of policing to make it more restrictive, easier to fire or punish police who do their jobs badly that might make it less appealing job you might need to pay more in order to attract people to that job, but somebody needs to do that. and if the incumbents in the department aren't willing to do that, you need to hire somebody else. who will. and i do think that the mayor has pivoted from 2020 when there was talk about let's redirect funds to mental health services, etcetera to now, asking the board of supervisors for millions and millions of dollars to beef up the ranks because i think they're down. like 500. officers in san francisco. so they do need more cops and they do recognize that they have a problem and they are looking for money to beef it up . i don't know if they would pay them anymore. but i think that they in other words, i don't think that this is right now

they're not operating under the defund. the police have them back off, but they're trying to catch up. but it's done damage right? that messaging did damage and so it's gonna take a while and i don't think it's just an issue of quantity, but quality of policing and quality of training. and then ultimately, the cameras point about toothpaste being locked up well, in many cases, certain definitely. khonsari coleman. apologies um, ultimately, that's been decriminalized. you know, you can steal to a certain number now without facing any sort of real penalty. well, that has ramifications, right? yeah i mean that one. that is the quality of life issues that everyone's talking about, and it is amazing that san francisco this gym the city full of young people, lots of talent, and it's just allowed to rot. i don't understand it. where where are you? yes excellent questions. thank you all very much. okay ahead, terrifying, firsthand account of that deadly kidnapping of four americans in mexico last month, anderson cooper just spoke with the two survivors in a cnn exclusive that will play you next, diablo

man, his red plastic mask, but they put masks on. it was putting the gun start head. telling us not to look up things like that. soo many migrants complaining about howow this was nothing like the easy route they were promised one of the world's most dangerous journeys, people clumping together, perhaps fearing for their own safety. men women children, risking their lives for a better life reminder of the violence faces migrants here every day. the whole story with anderson cooper premieres sunday at eight every sunday one whole story one whole hour. on cnn. w breed of hornet sweeping e nation. are you picking this up? country vice war. the all new dodge

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free proof 69369. i'm natasha chan in los angeles. and this is cnn. tonight a cnn exclusive. anderson cooper, speaking with the two americans who survived that harrowing kidnapping by mexican cartel. they were kidnapped along with two friends who were shot and killed. here's some of their story. we heard a car, beat the horn and pulled around us. zundel was in the backseat. he said. don't stop. he saw a gun. we drove through a few streets and corners until we got back on the main street, and that's when i ganga shooting started. zendaya and shahi. they jump out to run and they were going down. there was a window being on her window. with all my of little gun, probably a nine millimeter and i jumped out of the driver's side, and when i jumped out on the driver's side

, that's when i was shot in both legs on the ground for maybe, like 10 minutes. after they took everything from us, and i guess whoever told them to bring just go ahead and bring us with them. that's when they loaded us on the back of the truck. my panel is back with me, josh. you imagine how terrifying i mean, this is mexico that we're talking about? yeah no, i mean it's the conditions in some of these border towns in mexico is just horrible with the cartel violence and then the failure of the mexican government essentially to start control over over much of its territory. it's you know, i wouldn't go there. yeah i mean, we shouldn't as we have now learned because it was apparently mistaken identity. they thought that they were a rival drug cartel or something. and so they, i mean, basically what it sounds like i listened to all of anderson's interview. it sounds like they got lost. they were trying to go to. i think she was there for some sort of cosmetic procedure . they were trying to go to a doctor where she'd been before they got turned around. they got lost, and then suddenly they were surrounded by this drug cartel, and they basically started shooting opening fire on them. there are six states in

mexico that the state art mint has put on a travel advisory list, saying that is on par with syria or going to iraq or afghanistan. and so that's the issue effectively. the cartels managed the territory. you know, we should note as we speak here tonight, the former head of the equivalent of the mexican fbi sits in american prison tonight because of his involvement with the cartels, so this is cartel territory. and you know, ultimately the cartels have said, you know, apologize. oh these were road guys, but ultimately this is the situation you're dealing with just a mile away from the u. s border. so is this who we have to treat with when we're dealing with the lives of american citizens. we got to go to the cartel and not the mexican government, not anglo their president. not so we have these faceless, nameless criminals that we have to deal with, and that's it. it worked. it worked because they turns out they when they realized that they had americans. they too, were spooked, but not before

terrorizing the americans. so they did want to give the americans back and they knew that they were in trouble for having killed two of them. but it sounds really harrowing. here is so eric is the one who was in the wheelchair and he was shot twice. i believe in the leg here is what they decided to do with his injuries. the mexican cartel they put my leg on a two by four. and then they stitched it up. they just stitched it up, right? did they give you no pain, medicine or nothing? they just stitched it up. um, it might have not even being later that same day. all the stitches bust out. did they check to see if the bullet was still inside or anything like that? no, sir. after they staged it. they took some, like, guess gauls. and they put the two by four board under there, and they was wrapping it around like that,

and i was telling them the two bible. the two by four was hitting me in the back of my leg and it was killing me. so they took away the two by four. i mean, this was obviously after they had already watched their friends be killed, and then that's how they're treated. it is really amazing that that these two actually survived, calling your thoughts. incredible they're able to talk about it so bravely and, um i really just commend their bravery and i'm glad that they survived it. i mean, i think we like to think of mexico as you know, fun place to vacation. you go to cancun or you go to mexico city, and you have the street cart food that is famously good and all those things are great. and then in other parts of the country, it's a failed state, so it's a it's a place of extremes and we have to realize that there's one more really disturbing clip that i can play for you, um so they were basically kept for four days and they were threatened also with sexual violence and deviance,

and here is how they said that they got out of that. you're a woman in custody with cartel gunmen. were they threatening to you in violence and sexual violence? i mean, yeah, they said all that stuff all that. they did. hmm they're trying to make us have sex with each other . but brothers and sisters, the ancestor and that she was pregnant minute they tried to make you have sex with each other. what did they say to you ? they was like, what are y'all? we said brothers and sisters. and they was like, have sex with each other. like no, these are my brothers. i'm pregnant. that's worked super warped and, uh, you know, i hope that it makes americans consider why immigrants come to this country from mexico have a little more sympathy and empathy for those who take great personal risk to get to the united states of

america and just want to work and be safe. i think that this is a story that should really make us consider the push region reasons why we have immigrants here and why we have an immigration situation. it's not all our situation. it's also because we have neighbors in need, and we should be considerate of. by the same token, i agree. by the same token, it should make us consider that the fears that donald trump and republicans have about who is coming over. you know, that's who they're the depraved people they're talking about. that's who they're worried about. coming over right, so depraved victims that are coming over. right but it's it may also be depraved people, maybe a small part of the population as well. it's like this is it brings out both both sides of the immigration debate here is what i'm sure, but i'm sure that members of the cartel i mean i know that it is an extremely violent program, but there are millions and millions

of people crossing the border. there are children crossing the border. i'm sure children are not the violent deviant criminals. there are a lot of women. no, that's not, you know , that's not what i'm saying, but people who live on border towns they see a story like this, and they think we have to have an immigration policy that separates out the problems of failed state, mexico and only brings in the rest of mexico, which is the vast majority of mexico to your point the bulk of the people trying to cross the us border illegally from mexico and are not mexicans anymore. this is i mean the situation. i mean the situation exists and their situation down in central america and guatemala, where there's a different set of push factors that are there. but by and large, it's not mexican people that we're seeing trying to enter the united states to mexico now. yeah but there are a lot of the same push factors exist. the cartels running the central american countries, and especially, we're seeing a lot of immigration from haiti. actually from that border in haiti is a straight up failed state like it is the same

situation that you're seeing in mexico. but even worse, so i understand, you know. there are the violence that that it brings home in very graphic terms, the violence that people are subjected to in their lives. if you live in one of these communities of what you're you know who you are encountering and what they're doing to thank you all very much. make sure you stick around at the top of the hour because we're going to dive deep into several stories with our panel of reporters. we have atlanta train with us. she's learning all about the back channel communications, keeping donald trump in the loop on republican investigations. okay, but first here we're going to talk about he's honking a free speech violation honking your horn. one california driver decided to make the court decide after she was ticketed for honking. in solidarity with protesters was that free speech will tell you what they ruled next. hey, man. you could save

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, mutual physicians mutual this is cnn. the world's news network. what part. all right. how many of you have honked your horn in celebration or honk your horn and anger is that considered free speech? apparently not in california. a federal appeals court ruling against a woman who honked her horn in protest of congressman darrell issa's and his support of former president trump. she said she was exercising her freedom of speech. the court said she was a danger my panel is back along with cnn legal analyst jennifer rogers. why can't i honk my horn? jen at anybody? i want to. well california has a law that's a public safety safety focus law that says you can only honk your horn if it's reasonably necessary for a traffic related issue, right if someone is cutting you off if someone's going to hit you if you need to warn somebody otherwise, they

don't want people honking because if everyone's talking all the time that no one will pay attention when there's actually a need for someone to listen to the honk, so there's this law on the books, and she honked in support of some protests. 14 times and she got a ticket. i mean, don't we all hung like when you see protesters and they have their posters standing on a bridge aren't always like hong kong if you support them with them, isn't that isn't that freedom of speech? how much is this ticket? oh i don't know. but you didn't pay it. she didn't end up paying it so she would just pay the ticket like she didn't even have to pay the ticket because the cop didn't show up. she sued because, she said, this law is unconstitutional. this issue with the court was about the constitutionality of this law. so they say, is it expressive and they said yes. you know you're expressing as you say, allison, you're expressing something when you honk that way, so it goes into the kind of free speech first amendment rubric of jurisprudence, right? but then they say, is it content neutral or content? based? are you saying you can have thank expressively to support progressive causes but not conservative causes. no, it's not, it says. if it's public

safety related to the driving, you can do it. if not, you can't so it goes under a specific level of scrutiny, they say if the government has an important interests, which here's public safety and what they're doing, the laws reasonably tailored to meet that interest. then it passes. that's it. isn't there a selective prosecution is you hear me? people honk their horns all the time for all sorts of reasons that are not specifically about public safety and are almost never never ticketed for that. this was in the context of a protest, isn't it likely that she was picked on for her? views in this instance , the court explicitly said there was no allegation of that here. you are right if she said they pulled me over because i said that i was supporting this particular viewpoint, and they pulled me over because they didn't like it would be in a different level of scrutiny, maybe a different outcome. but here, they said nothing like that. here's why they were angry because she hugged 14 times. that's losses. she honked 14 times is that excessive? it's excessive. if you lived in that neighborhood. i think you'd think it's excessive, right. and you'd want that to end. and look, i think the state of california has allowed to have a law like this, right? i think. i

mean, if you think of a different example that might be similar. it's like can you ban fireworks? right what if i said if you hate trump put up a flare, right? could you ban that? well i think you could ban that right? because but that might be speech or expression in the same way that honking is right. the bottom line is like if you can ban honking or fireworks, i think you should be able to ban it. here's what honking 14 times sounds like go no, no, don't do it. oh it's horrible. that's only four times four. that's not for yeah, never mind. we don't need the other 10 times, so i mean, let it what happened to the girls fashion flip of the middle finger. doesn't that just work in every situation? i it it can. it's very expressive if you're looking and it's you know, it actually, actually at least stands for a word, which is speech, whereas honking is just honking. it's like banging pots and pans that to me, this is a question of noise pollution, right? the finger is quieter. it's quieter and it's subtle. um

yes, as subtle as a new jersey. that's what i that's what i love . and you know, california is a state that is basically legislated around cars around the fact that this tons of cars on the street that everyone drives everywhere all the time. so if you had everyone honking all the time, imagine the noise pollution understand the law? i would have just played the ticket because if i wanted to honk 14 times, i would already know that i'm like going to get my money's worth. um so you know, i kind of understand where she's coming from. but the state of california has a point here, too. well i'm sure i've humped 14 times she was honking and support. though the middle finger wouldn't have worked, it would have expressed the viewpoint. what did you what did you honk? 14 times that like if i'm going over like it's fourth of july or whatever in my town, and i'm going over and there's people like waving flags, all like hana cochon cochon, fourth of july and you get away with it because there's so much noise from the fire is already it's not content neutral anymore. you've come up with a rule

that's no longer constitutional. you're allowing people to talk only to express certain ideas. mm certain ideas, but in certain context, where there's already noise, so no one would care so much noise no one cares. resident of brooklyn surrounded by new york and new jersey, i am surrounded by people who would revolt if their right to beep was taken away, so i cannot even imagine a world where people are silenced, have signs up that said, no honking in the area around the lincoln tunnel. it was a giuliani era thing where they're like with. they decided they wouldn't let you block the box anymore. and you weren't allowed to honk for reasons other than like someone was about to take your call. are and you know, i live in manhattan. i would like less less street noise as well. but they don't seem to do that anymore is going that direction. california is following a page from giuliani. very interesting. thank you all very much. okay, so gop congressman jim jordan, now in legal hot water with the manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg. we'll explain. next. you need to d deliver new

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now. i just bought a car from carbon to a lot can happen in a moment. we're delivering it here , like finding your perfect mix of down and monthly payments breaks finance your next car with carbonneau today. manhattan district attorney alvin bragg is suing congressman jim jordans, the republican chairman of the house judiciary committee. brag accuses jordan's of trying to interfere in the criminal case against former president trump through what he calls quote a transparent campaign to intimidate an attack will have much more of this developing story in a few minutes at the top of the hour coming up, some of our best reporters are here to share the scoops that they've been working on. including new details on dominions lawsuit against fox and why so many of us are driving trucks instead of electric vehicles. nowadays all of that, and more will be right back. reinventing our network

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good morning, everyone we do begin with breaking news this morning. closed captioning brought to you by flexible family of products fill swift here this is flex superglue gets like super glue and the entire flexible family of products at flex seal products .com. welcome back to cnn tonight. this hour. we're talking with some of our favorite reporters about their scoops on the stories are covering this week. tonight we've got atlanta train solomon, sarah fisher and even mccann ladies. thank you so much for being here really looking forward to talking to all of you . so let's start here. the manhattan district attorney indicted former president trump now suing gop congressman jim jordans. the legal tension between the d a and the house judiciary committee chair. started shortly after donald

trump announced that he expected to be arrested. jordan's wants documents and insight into the hush money investigation and last week issued a subpoena for the former senior prosecutor, mark comrades, but the district attorney is blasting the effort as harassment and retaliation for prosecuting donald trump. and after jim jordan announced this week that his judiciary committee planned to hold a hearing on crime in manhattan, well, the new york mayor eric adams fired back. those same people that are talking about the crime in new york capita. they are going up there increasing and so why are they here? they should be holding the hearing in their municipalities to deal with the issues there. this is putting put on plays by donald trump campaign committee . you know this is this is not about public safety. okay elena , let's start with you because i know that you have been working on this story. this is unprecedented, basically