decades including carmon jones in 1954, one of the first films with an all-black cast with box office success. his 1957 movie island in the sun was banned in several southern cities due to the film's interracial romance plot. off the stage, belafonte was known for his deep dedication to the civil rights movement and close friends with the reverend martin luther king jr. belafonte helped plan the 1963 march on washington and later out spoken opponent of apartheid in south africa. he came up with the idea of this hit song --. ♪ >> we are the world, brought together many singers, raised more than $63 million for famine relief in ethiopia and other parts of africa. tonight the son of harlem is being memorialized at the famous apollo theater. harry belafonte was 96 years old. cnn primetime with michael smerconish starts now.

♪ anderson, thank you. matt gaetz, he single handedly held up kevin mccarthy's election as speaker, you'll recall. well, tonight, he's threatening to do it again in a new battle on capitol hill. and he's here. i'm michael smerconish. live from new york city on the day that president joe biden asks americans for another four years, the nation is at risk of a potential economic disaster. thanks to partisan and interparty politics in washington, the u.s. is scheduled to default on its debt as early as june. something that's never happened before. and if the nation defaults, that means massive job losses, almost assures a recession. federal benefits, like social security are at risk. interest rates, what you pay on your house, your car, your college loan, they all skyrocket. the stock market, it tumbles, drag with it your 401(k)s. i know what you're thinking. michael, come on. we have seen the movie before and we know how it ends. they're going to figure it out.

just before the clock hits midnight. since 1960, congress has acted 78 separate times to permanently raise, temporarily extend or revise the definition of the the debt limit. it's all seemed to work itself out, but in life there are no guarantees. republicans are demanding more than $4 trillion in spending cuts in exchange for lifting the debt ceiling. but president biden insists that budget talks shouldn't be included in something this consequential, even as some in his own party are pressing him to negotiate. >> this is his job. this is the responsibility of the leader of the free world and definitely the united states president. he has to negotiate. >> the debt ceiling now stands at 31.4 trillion. house speaker can lose 4 gop votes to pass the bill. he has to appeal to all his party's factions to get the

votes on his own plan. they were pushing for a floor vote tomorrow on their plan which would raise the ceiling for a year in exchange for deep spending cuts. but now mccarthy has opened the door to pushing back the timeline saying a vote will come this week. [ inaudible ]. >> i'll let you know. >> you're the first person we'll call. >> a decade ago a debt standoff did have catastrophic consequences as "the washington post" notes that fight in 2011 between ascendant conservative tea party republicans and president obama rattled the stock market, precipitated downgrade in u.s. credit and ultimately cost taxpayers more than $1 billion. you know who led negotiations with republicans back then? joe biden. when he was serving as vice president. he negotiated back then, so why not now? how dire are things? well, on the day that he's announcing his re-election bid,

the president cited donald trump. >> quoting donald trump, but even donald trump said, i can't imagine anyone ever thinking of using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge. folks, america is not a dead beat nation. we pay our bills. >> by the way, under trump, the u.s. debt increased by nearly $8 trillion and congress voted to increase the debt ceiling three times without demands. but republicans are now seizing on the issue as leverage. this brings me back to mccarthy. and a massive leadership test. he has a caucus of 222. he needs to secure 218 votes to pass his plan and send it to a near certain defeat in the senate. if he loses five, he can't get it done unless he has democrats on his side. so the question is, can the speaker get this done with only republicans? did the deal that he cut to become speaker limit his options?

one of the debt plan holdouts is matt gaetz. yes, the same thorn in mccarthy's side who delayed his election as speaker. the gop congressman from florida, he joins me now. congressman, welcome back. so when did republicans find religion on spending? >> well, i think you've seen little more than a dozen of us never vote for an increase in the debt limit. so to do so, there has to be substantial downward pressure on spending. we're deeply concerned about a $32 trillion debt. what that means in terms of the dollars, position is the global reserve currency and the extent to which government spending is driving the very inflation that we are elected to check. so we think joe biden should negotiate. that's what democrat joe manchin said. that's what democrat house member jared miss koe wits said and the american people understand that those negotiations are necessary in divided government. >> my parents always said, time in and place when they were raising my brother and me. is this the sometime? is this the place? we already made these

commitments. it would be like me with a spending problem instead of curbing my spending now instead risking default and saying to creditors, i'm not going to honor the commitments i've made. >> no. i speak from personal experience when i say that when you've maxed out your credit cards, it's a pretty good time to evaluate your spending habits. and in the seven years i've been in congress, we haven't honored the true budget process even once. so the debt limit presents a unique opportunity to try to put downward pressure on spending four times when joe biden as the united states senator voted to raise the debt limit. he demanded corespondenting cuts. when he didn't vote, he said it was because there weren't spending cuts at times. so if we had joe biden as president with the same perspective as joe biden as vice president or as senator, we would probably have more negotiating going on now than we do. >> are the issues that you personally are raising, are they worth delaying this whole process? my understanding is that you're fixated on work rules and

whether they begin in fiscal year 2024. i don't want to lose everybody in the weeds, versus fiscal year 2025. it seems like you're tinkering at the margins. >> welfare to work should be a corner stone of these negotiations. bill clinton and newt gring rich can make welfare to work deals. we should make those with joe biden. any feature of this deal is sincere, it will start immediately. the oldest trick in washington is to delay things two, three, five years down the road to tell the voters that you believe in them but to get the spending now and the cuts delayed. i'm not falling for that trick. my colleagues who put conditions on speaker mccarthy are not going to fall for that trick. and let me answer the question you asked in your monologue, absolutely. features of the deal that allowed kevin mccarthy to ascend to the speakership require him to fight on top line spending levels in this debt limit battle and to not delay that for the appropriations process that

usually gets rolled up in one big omnibus bill. >> could this lead to my recollection of the whole fight over him being elected speaker is that the resolution was that a single member could call for his ouster? you correct me if i'm wrong. could this lead to that? could you or one of your colleagues conceptually be calling for his ouster because of this impasse? >> no one is looking to lower the sword of dam achilles quite yet, michael. right now we're working to get a responsible, fiscal policy sent to the senate. we believe that puts pressure on schumer and biden to work with us to try to avoid the catastrophic consequences you mentioned. but don't forget there are also catastrophic consequences if we continue to drive these deficits up and this debt further and further into the future. that risks every economic opportunity for every american. and if we lose this dollar and if inflation continues, the savagery to the american family and the american economy will be severe. >> the caucus is 222. you know the math.

he can lose -- he, speaker mccarthy, can lose 4. right now, how many holdouts are there, yourself included? >> twice that. so i do not expect that there will be a vote as planned tomorrow on the mccarthy debt limit increase. i think there are still a few details we have to work out on work requirements, on some of the green new deal tax credits that we would like to see repealed. there's some disagreement in our conference about that. and if we're able to get that done, i don't think it will be tomorrow. i think that there's still some time for this cement to dry. but it may very well be that what we send out of the house with 218 votes is the only thing we can get 218 votes for, mr. schumer and president biden should take note of that. >> okay. i'm hearing matt gaetz say there are eight holdouts as of this moment in time. there won't be a vote tomorrow. do you speak -- have you personally spoken to kevin mccarthy about this? >> i wasn't able to speak to him this evening, but i spoke to members of his leadership team. i made very clear where i stood.

and several of my colleagues did the same. and they've been public about it. and so i think that there's still a little work to do, but i don't dispair that. i think that what the american people want to see is that people putting aside partisan affiliation and working together to reduce spending and to not have the catastrophic impact of defaulting, which is not something anybody wants to see. >> you heard me say at the outset, i addressed the subject with some level of trepidation because i feel like viewers across the country are saying, we've heard it all before and they always seem to work this out. is this going to get worked out? >> i hope so. and there's a lot of momentum toward that. but ultimately, the democrats get to vote as well. my republican colleagues would like to see a plan that actually starts to bend that curve of exponentially increasing spending. we want to claw back some of the covid funds that unobligated.

pro-growth policies like hr 1. and if we do all that, there could potentially be a deal on the table. but the democrats have to understand, we control one half of one third of the government and we are going to maximize that leverage to achieve our goals. >> i get it. i would just say in closing, i have spoken to the folks at the peterson foundation, i'm sure the audience knows the commercial to which i refer. peter peterson i think his name left $1 billion to focus the public's attention on this issue and they make the point that we're in the fix we are, the 31 trillion because of r's, and d's both spent too much. final word? >> i'm eager to work with my democrat who can see areas of our federal spending we can curb and cut and spend less money to ukraine. if we're at the debt limit for our country, why are we funding the government of another country, seems like a reasonable thing republicans and democrats ought to be able to work on. i agree, both parties contributed to this mess and probably take both parties.

>> we'll discuss that later because the answer is because they're facing a savage invasion at the hands of vladimir putin and we're defending democracy. >> well, at a very high cost to americans. i wonder whether or not we're extending the frequency of that savagery or not. >> congressman gaetz, thank you for being here. >> thank you, michael. i want to hear your take on today's news. make sure you're hitting me up on social media. i love the end of the program when i get to respond to some in realtime. next, there's something interesting about president biden's re-election video that we want to point out. we'll show it to all of you. plus, one of his campaign co-chairs senator tammy duckworth joins me on concerns here live about president's age. ♪ all across the country, people are working hard to build a better future. so we're hard at work helping them achieve financial freedom. we're proud to serve peoplele everywhere, in investingng for the retiremet they envision. from the plains to the coastst, we help americans invest for their future.

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create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. the threat that maga republicans pose to take us to a place we've never been. and we're the last guy tried to take us. look how hard we had to fight to prevail and get prevailing ways. my god, we had to fight like hell. folks, we made a lot of progress! because of all of you. but there's more to do. so let's finish the job. >> president biden today speaking at a union member's conference just hours after officially launching his re-election bid with a campaign video. his fourth presidential campaign message warns against maga extremists he says are dictating what healthcare decisions women

can make, banning books and tilling people who they can love. it's worth noting the vice president kamala harris plays a prominent role in the video. joining me now his campaign cochair and democratic senator from the great state of illinois, tammy duckworth. senator, thank you for being here. look, the president has a record that includes successes. he can lay claim to. he can talk about aspects of the economy, covid funding, the infrastructure bill, bolstering domestic chip making, et cetera, et cetera. and yet despite this, the majority of americans still say he shouldn't be running again. why can't he close the deal? >> well, we still have 18 months to close the deal and he will close the deal and he will win re-election, bottom line, he has delivered for americans. he worked hard for us. and he would like to continue that work because we have much more to do. we were able to cap the costs of insulin for senior citizens at $35 a month. but we need to do that for all americans. we need to really help the middle class and there's a lot

more work to be done. the president made great progress in his first term. he's going to close the deal and win re-election and we're going to continue to make lives better for working families all across this country. >> i know you've seen the numbers. i'll put some up on the screen. 70% think he shouldn't be running for re-election, even within his own party the numbers are staggering, more than half the voters in his own party say he shouldn't be pursuing the presidency. when you go into the internals, it's age, largely. right? this is an issue that continues to dog him. >> well, i mean, if you look at his polling numbers, you know, two years out from the previous run, you know, they were not that great either. this is joe biden. he always closes. that's the thing. never count joe biden down. never bet against him, because he will finish this race in front and he will win re-election. he's going to do it because he has shown he's fit for the job. he has more wisdom and experience than anyone to ever hold this office. remember that we could not have passed bipartisan infrastructure

deal if he had not personally intervened for months negotiates to get that thing across the finish line. we lowered the deficit by $500 million with the inflation reduction act because joe biden got engaged and worked the foens and worked the personal meetings. this is what comes with experience. he delivers for the american people. he delivered for veterans with the pact act. he will deliver for us. >> might it be to his vaj advantage to face a strong primary challenger? >> you know, look, i would like there not to be a primary just because it is important for us to take the fight to the republicans and show a real -- a difference between democrats and republicans that we are here for working facts and we delivered for the american people as opposed to republicans who continue to try to stop things and take away rights. this is the first time we have ever had my daughters, going to grow up with fewer rights now than what i had and this is all because of republicans. so, i think that we're going to

go through the primary and we're going to take the fight to republicans and we're going to be victorious in the end. >> senator tammy duckworth, thank you for being here. >> it's my pleasure. let's talk more about the hurdles president biden may face in his fourth and final run for the presidency. cnn senior political kmemen ta tor, former senior adviser to obama, david axelrod joins me now. i look at 2020 being a referendum on trump more than a biden victory. don't know if you agree with that assessment. if so, will 2024 be the same? if it's the same two guys. >> well, look, trump was president in 2020, obviously it was more of a referendum on him. but biden also had qualities that were the counterpoint of trump. he had, you know, calm, civility, experience. he was a good counterpoint to trump in 2020. it's different when you're the incumbent. obviously republicans will try and make his incumbency an

issue. but it was very clear from that video today and even some of senator duck worth's comments is the president is going to once again turn this into a choice. what's his famous phrase, don't compare me to the all mighty, compare know the alternative. and i think they feel pretty good about what the alternatives are going to be. >> do you think that the fact that neither trump nor biden has been above water, so to speak, in the polling is a reflection of them or the times in which we live? >> yeah. you know, i think it's a really good question, michael. there is a jaundice that you see -- you see the direction of the country, right track, wrong track. and by many other measures, people are down. i think part is an aftermath from the pandemic that we never have fully shaken. some of it has to do with the economy. and the course nature of our politics which assaults us

everyday. i think people are pretty jaundiced. but ultimately, this is going to be a choice between two candidates. and people will have to work through those problems and decide which one most closely reflections their values and their hopes. >> humor me, if gavin newsom were to jump in tomorrow, what would happen? >> i think joe biden would be the nominee of the democratic party. one of the things that he did very, i think, deafly in the first two years is he built bridges with the progressive community. which is where the most serious challenge or threat of a challenge would come from. and i think you see a party that's -- you know, there may be disgruntlement over age and some of the concerns that you spoke about earlier, but i think there's also a sense of unity

around repelling what they -- what democrats see as a threat. that threat is really reflected by donald trump but also some of the extreme positions that cost republicans so badly in the fall, last fall. >> did you read anything into the prominence that i saw of the placement of kamala harris, the vice president, in that launch video? or is that just him giving her his due? i wondered if that was a response to some of the age considerations and concerns to say, well, you know, look with whom he's surrounded. >> well, i think that's part of it. i think part of it also is that, you know, kamala harris is going to have a prominent place in this campaign because of his age. i think it's a natural question to ask about the vice president. and there's -- there must be a recognition in his campaign and in the white house that they need to strengthen her as a

player in all of this. you know, frankly she wasn't a major player in the first two years of the administration. they didn't give her, you know, the best assignments. she didn't have the best days. but i think there's a real focus on trying to lift her up here because people are going to ask, like who is your backup? >> right. >> and so it's going to be important for them. >> i agree. if it ends up being the two that we had last cycle, i think vice presidential selections will matter more in this election than any in recent history. david, always a privilege to have you here. thank you so much. >> great. thanks, michael. great to see you. staying with 2024, donald trump tonight threatening to skip the republican primary debates. chris wallace, who moderated two trump debates joins me next. ♪ safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arriveve with a replacement we could trust. that's's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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opening arguments began today as the front-runner for the republican presidential nomination stands trial. the civil battery and defamation case in new york stems from claims by former magazine columnist e. jean carroll that donald trump raped her back in the 1990s. trump skipped the first day. and now he's threatening to skip the republican primary debates. he pointed to what he calls his, quote, insurmountable lead in the polls and wa what he describes as hostile news networks. my next guest has moderated several debates from donald trump primary to general elections including this moment in 2020. >> president, i'm the moderator of this debate and i would like

you to ask my question and then you can answer. >> go ahead. >> you in the course of these four years never come up with a comprehensive plan to replace obamacare and just this last thursday you signed a largely symbolic executive order to protect people with pre-existing conditions five days before this debate. so my question, sir, is what is the trump healthcare plan? >> first of all, i guess i'm debating you, not him. but that's okay. i'm not surprised. let me tell you something. >> chris wallace joins me now. does that bring back warm and fuzzy memories? >> no. i'm -- you know, just having some flashes of ptsd, michael. good evening. >> you would think that a presidential candidate will, of course, he or she would have to show up for a debate. just in the same way you would think an outgoing president would have to show up for the inauguration of their successor, but in his case, there's precedent for him not participating. >> no, that's absolutely right.

in fact, when i was at fox, in 2016, he didn't show up for one of the republican primary debates. and what was so interesting is that we kept preparing -- even though he said he wasn't going to show up. this was debate in iowa just before the caucuses there, we kept preparing one if he kept his word and didn't show up and two if he suddenly showed up at the last minute. i mean, we really had two completely alternative plans for a trump or a trump-less debate in iowa. >> any rnc leverage that you see that could be exerted with him to force him to debate? >> no. not really. i mean, first of all, everything with donald trump is transactional, michael, as you well know. so, you know, he's saying right now i won't show up for the debates, but maybe he tries to get something better, some advantage, something negotiations throws the other people off. the other thing is that everything with donald trump is situational.

and that means that right now he's 15 to 20 points ahead of ron desantis, who is the only person who is also in double digits. if that should change or let's say after iowa, if he doesn't win there, then he'll just change his mind and he'll start showing up for debates. >> do debates matter in 2023/2024? >> oh, yeah. i mean, look, there's a lot of skepticism -- a lot of support for trump, but also a lot of skepticism about whether he's too old, as we're seeing with the democrats with joe biden. maybe we should move on. if you were to get ron desantis and donald trump on a debate stage together, i think a lot of people would do comparison shopping. now, look, trump does very well in debates. i think he really won the 2016 republican nomination by putting away those 16 other contenders in the debates. but you know, you put desantis, a new face with donald trump,

who is to say how that shows up and how people end up judging the two of them. >> chris, we lost harry belafonte. you had a conversation with smoky robinson. we're going to play a clip in a moment. talk to me about this. >> well, for my show, who is talking to chris wallace, we did an interview with smoky robinson, one of the greats of motown, one of the greats of pop music. and he knew harry belafonte, met him as a young man. and as you'll see in this clip, belafonte really made a tremendous impression on him as a musician, as just a presence and also obviously as a big civil rights leader in the '50s and '60s. >> let's watch. >> so, harry belafonte passed today. what are your reflections about him and his legacy? >> well, harry was a friend. he was a man who i met him in my early 20s. and he treated me like i was his

son, like he had known for forever and ever. he was such a learned man. he was one of the first black leaders that gave black children and black men a feeling of respect. he was such a dynamic personality. and even though -- i didn't realize that harry was 96, but even though he was, it was a shock to me to find out that he had passed. >> couple of specific questions. your reflections on him as a man and your reflections on him as a musical influence. >> well, my reflections on him as a man, like i said, he was a leader. harry was a leader. he was very knowledgeable about most things. and especially politics and that subject, you know. and as far as being an entertainer, he was one of the first entertainers that caught my real attention. he was -- when i was a kid growing up, i would see him on ed sullivan show and all that.

and he was the calypso guy. and he was the one that all the ladies loved because he was a great-looking man. and he had his own calypso style. he was just dynamic. he was just a wonderful entertainer and a wonderful man. >> looks like a great conversation. i know friday night you've got bernie sanders and carol burnett, quite a car pool. >> yeah. one of the great joys of this show. we're going to do news makers, like bernie sanders, talk to him about joe biden getting into the race. about the debt limit, all of that. but we're also, you know, we get to talk to a legend like carol burnett who is turning tomorrow is turning 90 years old. >> wow. >> i got to say, it is a beautiful conversation and a sentimental journey through an extraordinary career. >> chris wallace, thank you so much. >> thank you, michael. >> you can catch "who's talking to chris wallace" in a new time slot, fridays 10:00 p.m.

eastern. collective national incompetence the way a brutal new report describes the federal government's response to the covid pandemic, but the real headline is we're not ready for the next one. we'll talk accountability with one of the former trump officials in charge of the coronavirus response dr. deborah birx is here. ♪ ♪ old school wisdom, with a passion for what's possible. from the morgan stanley client expernce. you get listening more than talking, and a personalized plan built on insights and innovative technology. you get grit, vision, and the creativity to guide you through a changing world. ♪

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as america moves forward from the covid pandemic, the question remains, are we prepared for the next one? the latest assessment from a leading panel of public health experts, physicians, federal advisers is resounding, no. the 34-member covid crisis group just issued a sobering look at how the pandemic exposed a, quote, collective national incompetence in governance. the figures they speak for themselves. the report found that about half million americans may have died unnecessarily of covid-19. the u.s. government spent $5 trillion to deal with the pandemic when better preparedness could have saved lives and money. and the failure to manage the nation's incohesive and underfunded healthcare system in part led to the highest recorded covid death toll in the world. joining me now is former trump white house covid response coordinator dr. deborah birx. thank you for being here. is our bigger problem going forward a lack of scientific

preparedness or now a lack of confidence in government? >> what a great question, michael. i actually think it's both. we are not doing the things that we learned in the last three years at the federal level, at the state level, at the local level to really ensure we would ever get into this position again. instead, we're unwinding a lot of the great data that we put together so americans could actually see what was happening in their community. and i think if anything we have a clear road map about what is needed. i just hope we really focus on putting those solutions in place. >> i just read today a pretty deep dive interview with dr. fauci "the new york times." i'll bet you've seen it. if not, i should tell you, it was very introspective. i wonder what regrets personally you have during your tenure. >> well, i think it lays it out in the report. if you're going to look at this like a war, the way you win in a war is not a great plan that's on the shelf.

but when you start to execute that plan, where you see those deficiencies. and i really wish i had gotten out into the states and communities earlier. i should have gone out in april because once we were opening up america, making it clear that we were collecting the data and the tests and we were building therapeutics and vaccines, it was the time to really understand what was happening community by community. i didn't go out to the end of june. i really should have been out in the field in april. that's how you win wars. it's on the ground and listening to the people on the ground. >> disabuse me of this idea. that there was an alternative approach, which would have been to protect the most vulnerable among us. the elderly, those with pre-existing conditions and allowed others to lead their lives. >> well, here is the problem with that. in america, about 35 million americans that are particularly vulnerable live in multigenerational households. only about 1.5 million americans

are in nursing homes. and so, yes, we could protect the nursing homes, but the key is how do you protect families? and i think that is going to be the key going forward. and i really -- i'm hoping as a country we really take the time to work with congress and say, cms today, you should no longer accept infectious disease codes for flu or rsv or covid without a definitive laboratory diagnosis. let's move into the 21st century as we've done with cancer and cardiovascular disease. we should be diagnosing rsv and flu and covid with every urgent care visit. we shouldn't be guessing. once you know what you have, then you can easily find new viral infections. and so, we need a better human surveillance system. we spent a lot on zooanautic and annual surveillance. every u.s. embassy and consulate could be our early warning system. we know how to do this with waste water. every embassy, every consulate

should be monitoring their waste water. we should know what is circulating around the globe and we should be telling americans what's circulating in the united states, whether it's rsv, covid, or the flu. >> was there adequate concern paid to the mental health consequences of the policies that we implemented? i get that there was concern about physical health. in retrospect i can't help but wonder if we underestimated the cause of all of this, the impact that this was going to have on mental health of americans of all ages. >> i'm so glad you asked that, michael. because what was frustrating to me on the nih put together an excellent report in june and july of 2020 that talked about the mental health of our young people and how it was deteriorating and noted all of the increased e.r. visits, suicidal ideations. this was june of the 2020.

i sent that report to the cdc. i knew they were going to put out new school guidance. i asked the cdc to include in the opening issues about the mental health of young people, so school boards and parents could make decisions on the whole of their child, to really ensure that they understood the risk of the children not being in school. and cdc refused to include that in their guidance. >> wow. >> when you say you're following data and science, you need to follow the science and data. what is getting us into trouble even today is us making assumptions. we lost 270,000 americans to covid last year. we're going to easily lose well over 100,000 this year. this doesn't have to be our future. we know how to stop this. we've done this with pandemics all over the globe. i've spent 25 years doing it everywhere around the globe. you can change this. but we need the general support of congress and cms and cdc to really come into the 21st

century and work within our healthcare delivery system. utilize our electronic medical records. don't create parallel systems. we know how to be more efficient, more effective and most importantly if we give communities the information and the data and they can see in realtime what's happening in their communities, i know that they will do the right thing to protect their children. >> it's a complicated subject. thank you for that. >> thank you, michael. what types of stories are off limits for authors if the story isn't their's to tell? we'll talk to a white author criticized by publishers for writing about a fictional black man's experience with law enforcement. ♪ (screaming) defefeat allergy headaches fast withth new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache paiain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good! all across the country, people are working hard to build a better future. so we're hard at work, helping them achieve financial freedom.

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i'm looking for someone who loves art deco elegance, good times, and unexpected flavors. someone who likes it hot but knows how to keep their cool. a white-sand beach where you can see the sunrise? way better than whatever you were going to binge-watch this weekend. and you could be here in half the time. find me at hotels.com >> every day novelist, they've been stories about characters who could exist or might not exist in the real world. some rioters based them on an aspect of their own life, others create characters that have nothing to do their own experience. that hasn't always been a problem. but in today's world, just as much attention is paid to who the author is as to the words they write, if not more. my next guest have written more than 20 novels, 16 are best sellers.

he says he faced opposition when his agent started pitching his latest book to publishing houses. it's a story said in a fictional georgia county about a black voting rights advocates teen son, who's arrested for killing eight -- during a traffic stop. the author is a white man who lives in martha's vineyard. he says for that reason, many will not touch the. book the post says they will release trial, that's the title, in june. in the meantime, you can find experts online at the website richard norton patterson dot substack.com. bestselling author rick patterson joins me now. rick, the advice historically to authors has been right about that what you know. is that sort of the modern interpretation? that are people saying, well, you don't know about this aspect of life? >> well, if you're going to write a book like this, you have to do the work. so, i went to georgia, i talked to the head of the legal voting rights group there, the north -- georgia group. i talked to ministers, i talk

to lawyers, i talk to law enforcement people. i talk to community leaders. i talked to black folks involved in the struggle for voting rights. i did everything i could to internalize their own experience, so i could translate it into a book. and i think these things should concern us all. there should be no -- , there should be little terrible things that we care about. >> is it possible, despite your track record, the book is just not that good? >> well, literary judgment very. but when people tell you you are, quote, going to be rightly criticize for meghan, spoken talk about publishers, are they only hear from, quote, marginalized voices, or that your two white for black people, or this just isn't the kind of book for you to come back to fiction, or boy, i just love this, book i know just how to publish it. i just need to talk to young people, then you know you've got a problem. >> so, in other words, this is what was told to you or to your agent or to both, flat out you are told, hey, because of your

skin pigmentation, we can't publish this book? >> flat out, my agents were told -- i think the issue here, michael, can the bounds of literature crossed the bounds of identity and reach our common humanity and empathy? and that's what literature has always done. that's what literature should do. and i think if we have this literary segregation, we're going to end up increasing the polarization and insensitivity we already have too much of in our society. >> okay, i'm playing devils advocate with you, but is the argument here that you're taking a seat at the table that would otherwise go to a person of color? >> no, because every book is its own creation. it exists only because the author imagined it. no two books are alike. it's not like you are applying for the same job. novels aren't like that. posting isn't a zero sum game. it doesn't mean that if a book by a white author, good enough of his public, that some other book by some other author will

be published. it just won't work like that. no good is accomplished. >> okay, we will watch the sales upon release of your book. rick patterson, thank you so much. >> thank you, michael. >> up next on cnn tonight, new ethical questions after reports that supreme court justice neil gorsuch failed to disclose his summer vacation property to the head of a major law firm, raising the question, our supreme court justice is living up to the standards of the highest court in the land? alisyn camerota we'll discuss. but first, your thoughts on tonight's program and my responses. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans s for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that..... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas... ...a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours.

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- [announcer] do you have an invention idea but don't know what to do next? call invent help today. they can help you get started with your idea. call now 800-710-0020. >> time for some social media reaction to tonight's program. i had asked if we are heading towards a biden versus trump rematch. nick jay, we know biden is running unopposed, well, rfk junior begs to differ with.

you will any republican beat trump? i would say that donald trump's opponent at this moment in time is not ron desantis and it's not nikki haley and it's not tim scott, it's jack smith, it's the prosecutor appointed by merrick garland to look at the events of january 6th and the handling of documents at mar-a-lago. i think he poses a potential threat to trump, unlike that posed by alvin bragg or even fani willis. so, that's my answer. both have opposition. joe biden's opposition's father time. donald trump's opposition is jack smith. what does it say about both parties when these two men are both the best they have to offer? might be the best time for a well funded moderate candidate to make a run as an independent. is joe manchin watching tonight? i don't know. i have my eye on this effort by no labels. they are out there getting signatures and raising money to ensure ballot access should there be a third party

candidate that materializes, and polling that suggests americans don't want either them. i don't know how that's gonna play out, but i'm intrigued by it. what else came in? biden should retire. i love him, he serve his country, he deserves retirement. problem is, i don't see anyone else stepping up and willing to take over, at least when i would vote for. no one wants to deal with the stress and craziness says laura as. you did hear me ask tonight of david axelrod, what would happen if gavin newsom, just as one example, jumped in tomorrow? and david's thought was that joe biden would secure the nomination. i think that would be a heck of a donnybrook. i also ask was firing tucker carlson in the best business interest of fox news? here's some of what came in on that subject. no, but it was certainly in the country's best interest. well, paul p, i agree with. that i want to see whether or not they're going to tether towards being news focused and not entertainment focused. it remains to be seen. the other thing is there's been other high-profile

personalities who have been let go from fox, ousted at fox in the past. and each, time the conversation was, well, how are they going to fill the shoes of that individuals? and each time, they did. they built a machine over there where the pistons get replaced, and they don't seem to miss a beat, right. what else? yes, because the best ratings means nothing if you don't get that advertising revenue. i don't think their business model is predicated on advertising revenue. i learn that from frank says no last night. it really seems like it's the licensing fees, whatever the connectivity way of collecting the cash is. so, fun stuff, hit me up with more social media tomorrow after the program i will read them. i will see you on radio tomorrow morning on sirius xm. back here tomorrow night. right now, cnn tonight with alisyn camerota starts right now. >> hi michael, good evening everyone. i'm alisyn camerota, welcome to cnn tonight. former president trump accused