go from fox, ousted at fox in the past. and each, time the conversation was, well, how are they going to fill the shoes of that individuals? and each time, they did. they built a machine over there where the pistons get replaced, and they don't seem to miss a beat, right. what else? yes, because the best ratings means nothing if you don't get that advertising revenue. i don't think their business model is predicated on advertising revenue. i learn that from frank says no last night. it really seems like it's the licensing fees, whatever the connectivity way of collecting the cash is. so, fun stuff, hit me up with more social media tomorrow after the program i will read them. i will see you on radio tomorrow morning on sirius xm. back here tomorrow night. right now, cnn tonight with alisyn camerota starts right now. >> hi michael, good evening everyone. i'm alisyn camerota, welcome to cnn tonight. former president trump accused

of rape in court today. what e. jean carroll says happened in that department store dressing room in 1996. she plans to testify tomorrow. why is donald trump not expected to? plus, tucker carlson's former producer reveals that she has many audio recordings of her time at fox. >> i still have, i have several recordings that i'm still going through that we've recovered from all the phones. there are 90 that we have. >> so, we will discuss the vile behavior that grossberg says is part of daily life at fox. and why fox management allows their hosts to create that toxic workplace. all right, the panel is here with me, they're raring to go. we have former senate candidate joe pinion, paula reid, cnn senior legal affairs correspondent, natasha alford, host of the brio weekly, and motion new, most of the moe news podcast. let's begin with the e. jean carroll case. the trial started today in new york, where attorneys laid out

their case that donald trump raped carol in a department store dressing room in the spring of 1996. the judge is allowing carroll to call two other women have witnesses to show trump pattern of alleged sexual assault. carol's attorney says in court today, quote, three women, one clear panel, counts, kiss, grab, grow, don't wait. when you're a star, you can do anything you want, and when they speak up about what happened, attack, humiliate them, call them liars, and call them too ugly to assault, and quote. trump's attorney fired back saying, quote, she is abusing the system by advancing a false claim of rape for money, for political reasons, and for status. and in doing so, she is really minimizing the true rate of victims. okay, let's get to our panel. paul, great to have you here tonight. so, e. jean carroll is expected to testify tomorrow. is donald trump expected to testify or be in the courtroom? >> it's unlikely that we're going to see a. today, his own attorney was, asked and he couldn't even give

a straight answer to the judge. but look, i can tell you talking to his attorneys in other cases, in criminal cases, they do not want to see the former president anywhere near that witness stand. they are extremely concerned about any other issues that could come up in any kind of testimony. so, they do not want him there. look, even the former attorney general bill barr -- there is no need for him to testify this case. so, i, at this point, do not expect to see him testify because this is a civil case. he's not required to really be there at all. >> joe, one of his defenses that he's repeated over and over that he seems to think is a defense's she's not my type. not that i'm not a rapist, she's not my type. he seems to be more interested in letting his followers know that a 70 something year old woman now is not appealing to him, rather than defending himself against gross sexual -- misconduct. >> look, i'm not gonna dignify the comment from the former president. i think at the end of the day,

there is that old adage, no press is bad press. i think ask any person who's ever been accused of rape or had to suffer the indignity of sexual assault, i beg to differ. i think certainly he's not gonna come out stronger because of this. we've heard here some of the facts. this is gonna be adjudicated in the court. it's a civil case, the president is unlikely to show up. but i do think again some of the themes you will hear, was it the fall of 1995? was it the spring of 1996? the allegations are quite graphic, they're horrifying, they shocked the conscience. and as such, people would wonder the lack of specificity around the dates. so, i think again, all being told, it's a sad day for the countries in many ways, as it relates to the fact that time and time again you have so many women, president trump aside, who feel as if years after the fact they still can't get justice for what they think has, or what they know has happened to them. >> yes, in fact, it's the adult survivors act that's allowing this. as you know, new york passed this law, and there's now this window where women who say their past the statute of

limitations in terms of sexual assault or rape, they cannot bring these charges. but it's interesting, natasha, you understand, as we all do, it's hard to do this two decades later. though the judge is allowing her to bring in two witnesses who are friends of hers who she confided to at the time. >> that's right, when you hear e. jean carroll's story, it does sound like something that could've happened. the idea that she went and told to friends right away afterwards that she was discouraged, and she was told you will be out lawyered, your name will be dragged through the mud, you do not want this fight. that is something a lot of women can relate to. so, i think the fact that those two friends are willing to testify is really powerful. also, her psychologist, the therapist she spoke to at the time verified what she said, confirmed that she reported that experience that she went through. so, i think that the time that has passed, there are people who understand why that time passed, and why would still hurt all these years later.

>> and then there is the access hollywood tape. and they're going to allow that to be played. there is a question over whether or not the judge would allow that. so, what will that do? first of all, is there juror in america who hasn't heard it? and second, what do you think that will tell the jury or inform them of? >> what's interesting is they went to the jury pool, right, there is 40 potential jurors, and they asked several questions and a bunch of them raised their hand over the course of the day. they came up with these nine. these nine will have to make the decision. what's interesting about the access hollywood tape is there clearly going to try to show a pattern here. they're going to make up for the lack of specificity in our case in terms of her memory with a, this is the way the former president conducts itself. and we have several women speak to that. and so, it remains to be seen what happens there. and this is a shovel -- this is a civil case, so a products of evidence. it's more likely than not. is there 51% chance this could happen? and that's ultimately what the jury has to decide. and there's a court of public opinion that has to deal with, which is a whole separate conversation. >> paula, in addition to her

friends she told, she says, at the time, there are also two other women, not friends with e. jean carroll -- >> exactly. >> who will testify to similar behavior basically in public. one of them was on a plane and said he groped her. >> exactly, this is part of the pattern that mohseh just referenced. this is the whole theory of the case. we don't have any eyewitnesses. we don't have any dna evidence we're gonna use, here is who are trying to establish this pattern, not only through the contemporaneous account of her friends, but also through other women have experienced the same thing. when they talk about, you know, grab, group, kids, don't stop, nine to the access hollywood tape. so, yes, this is all part of establishing a pattern. >> you say there's no dna evidence, and i would stand reason, because it was a long time ago. though, it's possible, if e. jean carroll was, you know as she said, she's very upset about it. i just wonder if there could ever be a surprise in this case, and it could be something. >> it's one thing i've learned from covering former president

trump for nearly a decade. there's always a chance of a -- so nothing can be ruled out. >> thank you for that reminder. that is also very good. so, i sat down with e. jean carroll in 2019, when she had just gone public with this. she had not talked about it publicly. and she was still, i think, my impression was she was still grappling with what happened to her. but here is that moment. >> he went like this. i proceeded into the dressing room. the minute he closed that door, i was banged up against the wall. >> he slammed the against the wall? >> yeah, it hit my head really hard, boom. >> you point out he's a tall big person, and he -- you in some way? >> well, i'm a tall person as well, i'm six foot one in my heels. i was a competitive athletes, so when somebody shows you a -- the thing is, it shocked me. for a moment, i was stunned, right. and then he tried to kiss me. >> i mean, she went on to talk about what that was like in their. and basically, she was honest

that she was shocked, so shock she was still processing what happened allowed to her. at that point, she did not even want to use the word brave. what you described in that interview with me was a rape. but she did not want to use that word. and what she kept saying is i wanted to let you know i fought back, fought back as hard as i could. i just thought that was, i don't know, very poignant, she sort of understood that she had, there was other women she wanted to understand what that moment was like for her. >> there is a relatability to this, this idea that i don't want to be seen as a victim. and times have changed, right. the culture has changed. there is a time or to describe something like that, and again, a person might dismiss what happened to you or downplay what happened to you. the importance of this is accountability. the fact that donald trump, there is a certain indignity of saying i would never find that woman attractive enough to sleep with her. it is both insulting, but it's kind of the way that predators

can speak, right, to try to sort of downplay something that they've done, when in reality, that is not what rape is about. it's not about necessarily being attracted, it's about being power, it's about overtaking, it's about the cruel-ness of the act. so, again, i think this is bigger than donald trump. i think a lot of women would see a justice in this if there is enough evidence against him. >> such a great point, it's also, i think we need to say, it's also erroneous that if his defense is she's not attractive enough for me to rave, which is basically what he is saying, which is not attractive enough for me to be attracted to her, will just say that, she was a former miss indiana university, she was beautiful, actually is type. >> he actually mistook her for a second wife. >> in a deposition, showed a photo, and he said oh, that's my wife, referring to marla maples. that's definitely come up. it was disastrous. >> again, it's gonna be a

horrid scene listen to this woman recount, in her own words, what is clearly a traumatic experience for her. certainly president trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence. but i do think again, to natasha's point, i think those words are troubling. but there is no such thing as, quote unquote, a perfect victim, anymore than there is a perfect predator. you've seen one more talk about murder cases and domestic violence, whether we talk about people who've been sexually assaulted, we've seen time and time again that the perfect victim turns out to be lying. we've seen that the problematic victim tends to be the one who's telling the truth. so, in the end, this is gonna be heard in the court of, law jurors are going to make a decision. and i think, again, it might come to the president having to testify, because of the testimony is so damaging, i think on a multitude of levels, he may have to go in there and say i did not do this. here is what happened. i think some ways, if he can stay on message, he would benefit tremendously from that. >> we'll see what happens tomorrow when she justifies in court. thank you all very much. now to this, a former fox news producer says she has audio

recordings for more time at the network, 90 of them, oh. we're going to discuss that, next. >> when i go back and listen to some those tapes now that i have, i hear the stress in my voice, and how depleted i was. in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise contrtrol, vmware helps you innovate and grow. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let the light shine through. and light tomorrow, with the hope from today. this is a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is a once-daily pill that is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression.

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ahhh! icy hot pro starts working instantly. with two max-strength pain relievers, so you can rise from pain like a pro. icy hot pro. >> tucker, and his executive producer, justin wells, who was also fired, really were responsible for breaking me and making my life a living.

>> that was abby grossberg, former producer at fox network for tucker carlson, speaking out today on what she says is ramp it misogyny and antisemitic top of his show. she's also revealed that she has 90 audio recordings from our time at fox. fox says that grossberg's claims are, quote, an meritorious. back with our panel, and joining us is writer and comedian hari khan of all you. ari, great to have you. here >> well, it's fascinating to hear everything she encountered behind the scenes. we don't know yet what's on those tapes. sounds like there's still some recordings of sydney powell and rudy giuliani. it's not just all behind the scenes that tucker, but i don't think they'll ever come out, it's certainly fascinating. but regardless, she tells us what she experienced. so -- , you've worked at an, hour you've worked in newsrooms, as have i. what they did -- i, mean there's a lot of collegial experience at losing, there's funny posters, funny things written on the wall.

what was going on in tucker's pot in tucker's office was in a completely different vein. >> i haven't worked in a news room like that, in terms of what she describes. >> absolutely, that's my point. that this is in a completely different category. >> yeah, this is not a newsroom that i've experience, or that i've seen. and by the way, i was at fox 05209 back in d.c., this is in the pre tucker years, et cetera. it's very concerning. and she talks about it being a traumatizing experience for her, to the point where she had to take medical leave for the psychological stress it created. >> let me interrupt you to play what she says. she walks in the first day to tucker's office, and every single computer screen is like a sexualized picture of the house speaker at the, time nancy pelosi. there's also posters up. so, let me just play for you on our first day but she -- oh yes, what she saw on the first day. >> i show up, first day of work, and i know this is a popular,

one it's been widely publicized, there are little pictures like this big of nancy pelosi in a bathing suit, in europe, plastered all over. there was even one on my computer screen for the temporary computer i had, he was and i had to take it down, just to work. within a few days, i was called into justin wells office with alex mccaskill, who's a senior producer as well, and i asked if maria was having an affair with kevin mccarthy. it was just, i was shocked. i couldn't even believe it. i was forward. >> so, sexual, top sexual images, this is all out in the open. they're not hiding it. and it's just a question of why did fox management allow this kind of behavior? they know it gets them into trouble. they know they have to do payouts. and yet, they're allowing this kind of toxic behavior. >> what's so interesting about this is it's not that long ago that they dealt with having to fire roger ailes, the president of the network, for sexual misconduct, dylan riley, for sexual misconduct.

they had a whole investigation, et cetera, and it appears there was not a wholesale culture change there, at least based on what she said. >> natasha, your thoughts? >> yeah, i think culture starts at the top with any organization, right. and we all know that the truth comes out one way or another. so, people are going to talk about what they're seeing, they're talk about what they're experiencing, and culture is not what you write down as the legal letter of the law, it is the jokes, it is the things we find mutually funny. so, somebody at fox made it so the culture was comfortable with sort of entertaining that level of disrespect. and i'm not surprised, based on the way that fox anchors behave, alisyn, i know you were great when you are there. but the most popular ones are the most offensive, the most outrageous. so, if you can behave that way and call yourself a journalist, and i think that the culture behind the scenes, i'm not surprised that it matches in terms of a rage sniffs. >> hari, or thoughts?

>> i have a two and a half -year-old child. and for the last two years, i let him throw things on the right -- things on the wall, yogurt, jam, mix it, do whatever you want, in fact, here's some more substances, because it's i'm using, and i want you to do it. and then two and a half years in, i'm like, i want you to stop. i think it's enough. he's not going to listen to me. he's not gonna respect meat. so, i think that's where fox news is at. they created a monster. they wanted to stop. they can't make it stop. so, they put him up for adoption. >> [laughter] >> i have a toddler. >> so, you know exactly. >> i think the polar analogy is fitting somehow. but i think what you're basically alluding to is the drunk with power nature that these uber powerful, highly paid, people develop. in fact, abby talks about how the power she says tucker carlson was really interested, that was his motivation. here's what she said. >> when i got to tucker, it was different. and as the text came out revealed my suspicions, he was

looking for ratings bait, purely. and was also looking for power. it was a combination of ratings, power, manipulating the audience. and manipulating also the political system. there was an aspect of i can pick who the house speaker is. i can pick who the president of the united states is, or who the republican candidates are going to be. and i thought that was really dangerous, and didn't want that kind of power. >> your thoughts, mohseh? >> look, i think the foreign to say that fox as these allegations are without merit. there is a trial that's gone to occur and that they reach a settlement. >> but you find this hard to believe, or implausible, given what we now know from what came out in the dominion lawsuit of what tucker was saying behind the scenes? like, are you finding it hard to believe her allegations? >> i think i'm less intrigued by the court, i'm more concerned with the fact it appears now every single major news network in the country has some level of sexual harassment leveled against them, from ceos

of cnbc as recent as yesterday to pretty much across the board, you name it. so, i think we should have a frank conversation about why it is that women are unsafe in the workplace, and this is why the return of teachers, whether we're talk about nurses, or whether we're talking people who show us to produce the evening news. >> joe, i think that's fair. obviously, no one's immune from sexual harassment. but this isn't a differently. and let me just give you some examples. the open use of the c word for women, which she says is what tucker staff did, you have to look pretty hard for something like that in the office. >> i think to be clear, everything she is describing, the most extreme elements of what she's describing is horrifying. they should not occur in any news placed, much less any business place, much less a news organization. but in the end of the day, this has not been presented in a court of law, there is a legal proceeding that's ongoing. i think, again, we should be reserving of our judgment as these -- come out. she says she has 90 recordings

that she herself is not even gone through. we don't even know if perhaps some of what's on those recordings might actually contravene her own story. so, i think at the end of the day, we just take a step back, allow this play out. but again, what she is describing, ignore mistake about it, is horrifying, no one should ever have to experience it. >> we should not jump to anything. we should let things play out. we should kind of respect people before we -- >> okay -- >> that's not what tucker carlson will do. >> look, i'm not tucker carlson's attorney. tucker carlson certainly doesn't need me to defend him. but again, let's dispense with the notion that we don't actually try to figure out what people are going to watch, how we get through the block without people going to watch the cooking channel. we can have disagreements about corporate culture, but at the end of the day, i'm not here to talk about tucker carlson or the network. i just think it's an opportunity for us to focus on the fact that we just finished having one conversation about sexual assault, we're into a another story about women in the workplace. so, these issues are pervasive in our society. i think we should take more

time talking about that in the kind of aggregate. >> right, and i think, though i read that fox's statement was that all of her claims were an meritorious. we shall see, because there is a lawsuit that's one to start. thank you very much. president biden officially announcing his bid for reelection. so, are democratic voters worried about his chances? what are they thinking tonight? my next guest, frank lance, did a focus group. and they're concerned about just one key witness, he says. frank is here, and he's 20 of the headlines. we'll be with you in a minute, frank.

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♪ ♪ ♪ >> president biden officially launched his reelection campaign today, for years to the days since he announced his 2020 campaign. >> i ran for president four years ago. i said we're in a battle for the soul of america, and we still are. the question we're facing is whether the years ahead will have more freedom or less freedom, more rights or fewer. i know what i want the answer to be, and i think you do as

well. this is not a time to be complacent. ♪ ♪ ♪ that's why i'm running for reelection. >> so, what do democratic voters most want? well, frank luntz just sat down with a focus group of democrats to find out. and he joins us now. frank, great to see. what's the headline? what do they want? >> they want to beat donald trump. yes, they want to elect joe biden. and yes, they approve of the last two years, two and a half years of the administration. but what unites them and unifies them is the desire, the fear of republicans returning to office. now, remember they did the same kind of session three weeks ago, asking republicans what they wanted. republicans are more in favor of electing their candidate. democrats are more nervous about what happens if republicans come back into power. now, make no mistake, there is

no negative about joe biden's record. they would like to go further to protect abortion rights. they would like to go further to address the gun issue. but they are absolutely satisfied with what president biden has done up until this point. >> and yet -- >> what concerns them deeply is his age. and they're quite nervous that at some point between now and election day something could happen. and that joe biden is not the nominee, or he could lose, because of the age issue. >> and you know, that is quite a pickle, frank, because he's not getting any younger. it's just a truism, he is how old he is. i wish i was taller, but i'm five foot three. so, what are they to do about it? do they hope somebody runs against him? primaries him? >> no, they don't. the most enjoyable segment that i have, and this is what makes

my job so cool as we get a chance to ask voters if the president was sitting here, behind this camera, behind this computer, and you can say anything to him, the most common comment was mister president, thank you for saving the country, thank you for bringing us back, but sir, give someone else the chance to take it forward, let the next generation come up now. obviously, he did not listen or wouldn't have listened, but that's what they would say to him if they could. >> they say who that person could be, and how they say about, for example, the vice president? >> she would not be happy with their evaluations. she's still unknown. people aren't sure of where she stands. they don't think that she's as impressive. she has let people down over the first two years. they were remarkably favorable towards senator cory booker of new jersey. we show them some video of the vice president, some video of

the governor of california, we talked about gretchen whitmer, the governor of michigan, pete buttigieg. the candidate that they like the best is cory booker, because they like his appeal to something bigger, to something better. they like his focus on the future and what america could be. what they would like is to have joe biden's record, with cory booker's asian inspirational conversation. >> well, unless they plan to go into a laboratory, i'm not sure how they're gonna get that. but frank, tell us about this focus group. who are they? are they die hard democrats? >> these are biden voters from 2020, most of them voted for biden in 2016. they call themselves core democrats, moderate, progressive, and everything in between. and their nationwide, which is the value of zoom, what we're doing right here right now, that you and i can talk to each other even though where 200 miles apart. we had the entire country

represented, from new york to california, from iowa to oklahoma, from florida to oregon. and by doing that, we get a real feel for the american people. i want to make one, point alisyn, i urge cnn and the other news network, don't just put the pundits on because you know exactly what they're going to say. you and i have known each other for a while, you did not know what this conversation is going to lead. listen to the voice of the people, and you will not be surprised. ignore them, and only listen to the pundits, and all you're going to get is that extreme partisan political rhetoric. and that's not where the american people are right now. and in fact, democrats said that they want a better messenger. they want a better message for their own party. and republicans would agree with that, for their situation as well. >> totally agree, which is why i as well love doing voter panels. i do my calls for the people, and luckily, the country is big enough for the both of us, frank. you and me, to listen to that. so, it's always great to have you, frank, thanks so much for the insight, we really appreciate your help on that.

>> thank you, it's my pleasure. >> all, right my panel is back with me. so, hari, what are democrats to do about the age issue that they keep bumping up against joe biden? >> i, mean there is nothing to do, unless they find another candidate. the one thing that gives me hope is, like, obama was not the establishment candidate when he ran the first time around. everybody was aiming towards hillary clinton. he was this young charismatic leader that put himself in this position. >> but there was no incumbent? >> that is also true. look, they are not in a good spot. to me, my frustration is they had years to develop younger, more viable candidates. and they did not. and part of it is like what i was saying, it's a establishment that does not want to change. like with obama, that wasn't their guy. and he kind of was this transcendent figure. and we have this figures in the democratic left, whether it's aoc or all these justice democrats, you might think

maybe they're not electable, but there isn't even a attempt to cultivate them at a higher level. the fact that they won their seats to begin with means they defied their odds. so, he's not worth investing in. >> natasha? >> my dad's favorite saying is it is what it is. and that's kind of how i feel about about the situation democratic voters are in. they recognize that it is what it is, right. at this, point the bench is but so deep. they have had these significant legislative accomplishments. you have to think about the infrastructure bill that passed, the chips act, it's not as sexy as maple people hoped, but these are really substantive things. and the video, joe biden's ad, it's entitled freedom. the first shots you see are january 6th, reminding you that there was someone at some point who wanted to challenge the freedom and the meaning of your vote. roe v. wade, all of these things really resonate. i think it is what it is. and two hari's point, they

actually have to plan ahead. that's all you've got. >> joe, what did you think the president's message, reminding people, less they forget, what he was fighting for four years ago? >> look, to natasha's point, she's talking about to my favorite quotes, one from dion sanders, keep the main thing the main thing, the other one from that man, that raging cajun james carville, that it's the economy, stupid. the main thing was the main thing for joe biden. that january 6th happened, that anyone who is opposed to our agenda is opposed to your freedom, that they're going to talk about abortion, they're going to talk effectively about that kind of bellwether red meat stuff, not just for democrats, but for those independents who lean left, particularly in light of president trump. that is clearly what they were going to talk about. i think what's striking and what republicans probably should be harping on is not in that video. we were not talking about the claim that we have the greatest jobs president in the history of this country, which i think is because they recognize that that message is ringing hollow for a lot of americans who are

struggling on a day-to-day basis. the half million americans who are at least 60 days behind on their car payments, those types of undeniable realities that the politicians, to frank's, point the pundits, whether they want to acknowledge it or not, they're still real suffering in the aftermath of a once in a generation pandemic that left real people with real trouble. so, that is my perspective. and i think we're going to look at what's going to happen moving forward. >> mohseh? >> that video spoke to what frank just said, which is it spoke to democrats greatest fear. it begins with january 6th. it's a look back. there is more images of marjorie taylor greene and moraga and there is talk about the economy and talk about accomplishments. because we don't want to talk about inflation right now are the white house, right. so, even though pressure is coming down, and ultimately, this is a core base message. if you're trying to eventually get independents, get those people motivated in the middle, you're going to need a different message, because you need to speak to their concerns and their fears. because their greatest fear is

not a repeat of january 6th. so, it's interesting they went with that messaging. the question is, what record will he have to run on more than a year from now, in the fall of 23? >> i think people are waiting to jump to see what president biden is going to say. i think in many ways, he was trying to circle the wagons, get behind joe again. because to your point, god forbid something does happen in the present between now and then, there is only one democrat in the country with the infrastructure to run a national campaign, and that's gavin newsom who's going red state to red state, a factually building a synthetic operation as a break glass in case of emergency for the democratic party, when the democratic party wants it or not. france >> friends, thank, you we've got to move on to this one. we're talk about the supreme court. are the justices living up to the standards they're supposed to be sitting in the supreme court? clarence thomas and neil gorsuch are in the spotlight or financial disclosure issue. and now, chief justice john roberts is refusing to testify

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♪ ♪ ♪ >> chief justice john roberts releasing a new ethics statement tonight, signed by all nine justices, amid reports of some questionable business dealings. let's start with justice neil gorsuch. in 2017, he sold a 40 acre property in colorado. gorsuch held a 20% stake in that property, and reportedly made between 250,000 to $500,000 on that sale. that property was sold to brian duffy, the ceo of prominent law firm greenberg keurig. but gorsuch did not disclose the buyer. cnn found that lawyers for that firm have appeared in numerous cases before the supreme court, while gorsuch was on the bench.

another justice clarence thomas. he's under fire again because records show that thomas failed to recuse himself from a 2004 appeal that was tied to the family of that make a donor, that republican megadonor, his good friend harlan crow. of course, that's the same gop megadonor that thomas sold his childhood home to. he also accepted lavish gifts and very fancy vacations for more than 20 years without disclosing them. we have a lot to discuss here. my panel is back. mohseh, that just doesn't feel, right weather doing, the fact they're having these business deals. and in fact, clarence thomas said i did not have to disclose it because there is never any business that harlan crow did in front of the supreme court. that's not true. there was an architecture firm that harlan crow, i believe, was ceo of. and they do business in 2004. >> it's definitely a major optics issue, because it's not clear whether anybody broke the law. here and we should separate the gorsuch case from the thomas case. the gorsuch case, people look

at this and say, you know, it does not appear that even ethically it's ambiguous. the clarence thomas situation, as he went through those bullet points there, there's a lot there. the larger issue is from the founding of this country, the supreme court has not had a code of ethics, a written code of ethics. every other part of the federal judiciary does. and this is something the senate has brought up and asking roberts about, -- dick durbin, the senate judiciary chair person, saying this is not enough. the standard we hold congress to, every other judge in the federal system, we do not hold the nine lifetime appointees of the supreme court to. >> right, and so, chief justice roberts says he's not going to testify about ethics. i guess dick durbin has asked him to do, so and he said he's not going to. and let me just read why he says that. he says testimony before the senate judiciary committee by the chief justice of the united states is exceedingly rare, as

one might expect in light of the separations of powers preserving the importance of judicial independence. that makes sense, that makes sense to me. but is this kind of a different situation, where he should do so? go ahead. >> i'm just kind of floored by -- i mean, we should not have lifelong appointments. there's accountability in every single stage of government. i don't think the supreme court itself should somehow not have that accountability. i mean, we treat the supreme court like it's the jedi council. i don't know if that's an accurate analogy, i'm sure people will tweet at me later, but the idea you can do anything you want. like, when you are talking about this idea of bad optics. is it that optics if there's no accountability? they're seeing them do it. >> it comes at a time, where if you look at polling, popularity and trust in the supreme court is at a record low if you look at gallup over the last 50 years. so, if i am chief justice roberts announcing how the country feels about us, and we

are deciding all these major cases, i might huddle the troops. >> but why do they care? why do they care what people think about them? if they have lifelong positions, they're not elected. at that point, it's just about integrity and dignity. but from what we've just heard, there is not that much of it. what's the worry? >> i guess that's why you're seeing this resistance, right. if you don't have to answer to somebody, you won't. and in the case of clarence thomas, i found it really interesting that at one point he did report a flight with this republican billionaire friend. he reported it once, and he just never reported it again, while other judges reported flights. so, if you can choose to opt in or out in terms of transparency, and as you said, no one is watching, why opt in? >> joe? >> look, i think we're in a modern age where the rules of decorum, with nothing written on paper, have broken down. that we now know for a fact that insider trading in congress is rampant and pervasive, and which we've done nothing about, having passed laws to do anything about it.

we clearly need a code of ethics for this record, the interest is of gorsuch and climbs promised overspending. certainly, i would agree to separate the two, one is an elite of its own. but i do think the reason why you won't hear more republicans talking about this in a forceful terms is because of the fact that with everything, we have injected politics into what should be the last bastion of our democracy. and as a result, people feel as if, rightfully or wrongfully, that this is just a partisan attempt to try to steal a supreme court seat in the 11th hour. do i agree with? that no, i think ethics have to be in place and respective of what the consequences are. but i do think again the nature of our politics today has led to this place where we can't have a real common sense conversation about this just being -- >> well, i guess, but everyone agrees there needs to be a code of ethics, tomorrow or tonight, they need to write a code of ethics and enshrined that. and that can't make up for what's happened over the past two decades, but it could help start a president going

forward. >> to be clear, if the chief justice doesn't want to testify, which i agree, it's impossible to have the conversation about politics, perhaps he should submit a code of ethics to congress that they're going to have to abide by and codify that. >> that's a great suggestion. coming up, we've got a wild story from hari about how you completely snubbed congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez before she was elected. and i assume you are going to pour out your soul to us and talk about your regrets or how you feel about it. hold it. we will be right back, okay? [laughter] shake 'n feed. that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow. meet gold bond healing. a powerhouse lotion that moisturizes, heals, and smooths y skin. with 7 moisturizers and 3 vitamins, you can pay more but you can't get re. gold bond. champion your skin.

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got some explaining to do about congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez. here's a clip from his youtube special vacation baby, where hari talks about snapping aoc when she was running for congress. >> the worst thing i've ever done because of my ego [laughter] happened in 2017, all right. i'm on twitter, i get a direct message from someone i've never met before. again, 2017, all right? this is how it goes. hey there, my name is alexandria and i'm running an insurgent grassroots campaign for congress in queens and the bronx. the race itself is very exciting. we represent a progressive movement that would lead to the first person of color to represent the district. your standup comedy is amazing, and i know it must resonate with a lot of people. if you would ever like to collaborate, let me know, my doors open. and i replied i'm pretty busy right now. >> [laughter] >> why don't you get back to me

next year? >> she said definitely, and i said, thanks for doing what you do, alexis. three months later, i'm watching cnn, the democratic primary returns come in, i'm reading a scroll on the bottom of the screen, it says alexandria ocasio -- >> o [bleep], is that the lady? oh no, i think that was the lady? so i wrote back, [bleep], i never rode back. shamelessly, the night she won, i finally wrote back. oh, my god, you did it! i knew you would win! hey, if you would ever like to collaborate sometime -- >> wow, that is awesome. did she respond the night she won? >> no, no, apparently i was insignificant at that point. she responded after my special

came out. she responded on twitter, saying that it made for a great story and she forgave me. and then i think the hill covered it as a story. so, it all worked out. i still feel a great deal of shame. >> you should. >> [laughter] >> i'm kind of busy right, now how about it a year? >> i was making america laugh. >> and have you two met? >> no, we have never met. >> here she is! >> oh, my god. >> okay, we'll make that happen. >> oh, my god, i, there are so many people who were disappointed in me, friend, family. >> now, millions more. >> i have a shockingly big ego for someone who's only moderately notable in coastal cities, or wherever public radio is popular. >> it's working for you. all right, but i really think we're going to try and plan a meeting. hari, great to have you on the panel. really fun, come back soon. >> thank you. >> coming up, some of our favorite reporters are here to talk about the stories they're working on for tomorrow.

so, they are going to share their scoops with us, next. come on in, guys. hello, welcome back. great to see you guys. >> did you miss me? >> yes, very much. > i'm back. >> hari, that was really good -- doors were meant to be opened. you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud servic that enable digital innovation and enrprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. was also the first time your profits left you speechless. at the counter or on the go, save 20%

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