forget some of the people and organizations to thank. but reiterate what the mayor and chief said, and there's no reason to go back into it. but it does not work without a cooperative community. a community that backs up the police. that allows the police to take risks and try to take violent people into custody. we have a very supportive community in cobb county, very supportive elected official group, and very supportive leadership. that's very, very important for us. we had great community members calling us and giving us information. we have a 911 center who shared data with us. >> you've been listening to atlanta police and cobb county law enforcement on the shooting and manhunt that just unfolded for nearly eight hours. the suspect that was wanted for the shooting of five in an atlanta medical build earlier in

the day is now in police custody. authorities say the 24-year-old, dion patterson, a coast guard vet, was arrested in a condominium complex. patterson is accused of killing one and injuring four others just afternoon local time inside a waiting room in a hospital facility in midtown atlanta. gary tuchman is there. you've been at the scene of the capture. what do you make of what police revealed and what are you learning from sources how it transpired? >> reporter: all right. we can give you additional information you haven't heard from the news conference. this man was captured in this waterford place condo community, gated, upscale community. because people had heard already it was likely this man was in cobb county, georgia, this is 11 miles northwest where the

shooting happened, everyone was on alert. we talked to a woman inside here. we walked inside the complex and she heard two dogs barking inside loudly. they weren't stopping. she's heard them before but they kept barking and she was suspicious. she thought i wonder if the man on the loose could be in the gondola in the pool area. it was a hunch. she called the police, the police rushed in. we were following the police, they went inside, we waited outside. the women tell us, you may hear it later. the police went to the pool and gondola and started yelling get down and people heard that and stayed in their house. turns out the hunch was right. this man was found at the pool area in this condo complex, was put under arrest and about 50 minutes ago was taken in a cobb county police car out of the gates and he's under arrest. >> that's incredible. we heard from police they were

getting a lot of calls about this. some of them not the suspect, but one of them, this one was in fact the suspect. gary, thank you. going now to ryan young, who is in atlanta. ryan, what more do we know about the status of the victims? >> reporter: that is the big concern tonight, this is the question. we go that update from the hospital earlier about what was going on in terms of some of the people shot were still in critical condition going through surgery. grady is the level one trauma center nearby this location they were transferred to. you heard the police chief talk about the idea that firefighters and ems swarmed the area despite there was maybe an active shooter in the location, getting people out. the hospital is where the man came to earlier in the day with his mother, apparently seeking medical attention. he was a member of the coast

guard, became upset inside the building, started shooting. five were hit, one woman lost her life. we talked about the response from police. through the video camera network through the city they got the images out to the public that really helped. talk about the crowdsourcing of information throughout the day. they were concerned about all the parking garages behind me, scared that someone could steal a car, were shutting those down. you heard the police chief say they know he got a car running at a shell gas station nearby, then went to cobb county. then the elaborate camera network linked the cameras together to track him to the area. you see all the effort that police put into finding this man as quickly as possible. >> very much so. ryan young, thank you very much. >> earlier georgia senator warnock spoke on the floor of the senate about his personal connection to this tragedy.

>> in a very real sense i feel it in my bones because my own two children were on lockdown. truth is none of us is safe. as a pastor i'm praying for those affected by this tragedy, but i hasten to say that thoughts and prayers are not enough. it is a contradiction to say that you're thinking and praying, and then do nothing. it is to make a mockery of prayer. shame on us if we allow this to happen and do absolutely nothing. >> georgia's democratic senator joins us now. senator warnock, thank you for joining us. first your reaction to the breaking news of the capture of the suspect in the case. what more can you tell us about that. >> thank you so very much, good to be with you on this very sad day in atlanta.

of course we are heartened to hear that the suspect has been apprehended by local authorities. we breathe a sigh of relief for now, but sadly these kinds of mass shootings happen every day in america so far this year. >> and you mentioned today in a really powerful and impassioned speech on the senate floor your two children were in lockdown today as this unfolded. how are they doing? and what did you tell them as a father? but also as a lawmaker who is in a body that potentially has the power to do something about all of this. >> that's right, they're physically safe but how are my children doing? how are any of our children doing? and do we know the answer? what are the long-term traumatic effects of basically telling our children we can't protect you?

the best we can do is tell you to hide. we are a nation living in fear, and some seem to think that this is the price we have to pay for freedom. i reject that. it's a strange kind of freedom that causes our children to have to go on lockdown any random day of the week. we can do better than this. we are the united states of america. and i'm not about to allow -- to let any of my colleagues on either side of the aisle off the hook. we must act and act now. >> based on what we know, it seems that the suspect was receiving or seeking mental health care. this is just another incident of several in the last several months, even years, that have really been at this intersection between deadly weapons, guns, and mental health. what is going to be done about

that? this is a state, georgia, there are not that many gun laws. but at the federal level where you are, do you see a path to really doing something to address that issue? >> well, 87% of americans, according to a fox news poll, support universal background checks. in spite of that, there virtually was no conversation happening here in this building on this issue, even as we saw what happened in tennessee, almost no conversation. so i raised this with my colleagues several days ago, ironically had just had a meeting with leader schumer on this very issue earlier today. then an hour later i received news about this shooting in my home town that left my own children on lockdown. so a good start would have to be to have an actual conversation

about it. >> you were talking to senator schumer about it, the idea to potentially bring something to the senate floor on this issue? >> i think we must act. i think that the american people are calling on us to do something in the area of gun safety. and i think about how divided we say the country is, and the divisions are there to be sure. but on the left and the right, the people are closer in agreement than what we see reflected in the legislation we've been able to get done so far. if 87% of americans believe we ought to have universal background checks and we're not even having a conversation about it, let alone a vote, there is something awry in our democracy that increasingly the people's voices are being squeezed out of their own house. so today as a senator but more importantly as a father, i tried to give the people their voice on the floor of the united

states senate, and i pray and i will keep working to try to get us to act. the time is now. >> all right, senator rafael warnock, thanks for joining us. our thoughts tonight are with your constituents in the state of yorks. thank you. >> thank you very much. now a serious development in the trump classified documents investigation. jack smith is looking into whether the mar-a-lago footage was tampered with. they're focusing on who handled the tapes after they were subpoenaed. two new people will be called for claims. >> they viciously raided mar-a-lago. i have tape and i gave them tapes. tapes of storage areas, gave it to them. i could have held it back.

i wasn't holding anything back that i cared about. >> my next guest was an assistant special prosecutor on the watergate investigation so he knows this type of investigation, tape tampering and all, nick ackerman. thanks for being here. the obstruction portion was always a significant part of the case. but when you hear they're looking at the tapes, what does it say to you? >> says to me it's a couple of reasons. first the video tapes would have shown who went in and out of the storage facility at the time the grand jury subpoena was served upon the trump organization for all of these records. the question becomes did they tamper with those, destroy some, move them around so the investigators wouldn't see what was going on. were they trying to conceal

things? >> with trump, the things he talks about often tell you what he's worried about. we just played video, not the only one, about him talking about the tapes, wanting to release them to conservative media. when you hear him talk about it in interviews, does it hit your ear in a different way now? >> absolutely. he's concerned about what is on the tapes, what people are going to say about it. don't forget, a number of low level people in the organization have been put before the grand jury, some granted immunity. the question is what do they know about the calamaris, senior and junior, in charge of security for the trump organization being called into the grand jury tomorrow. >> seems significant. calamari sr is a 40-year-plus worker in the trump

organization, he knows what might have happened or what trump might have ordered done with the tapes. >> and he's close to trump, and his son is close to trump. what were they told, who told them what to do with the tapes, what do they know about the movement of documents in and out of the storage area. >> any of this ring watergate to you? missing tapes? >> sure. the missing tapes, cover-up, it's all the same. the issue on the entire mar-a-lago classified document case is whether or not justice was obstructed. whether the subpoena served on the trump organization was adhered to or whether they tried to hide the ball. the watergate case was not the break-in but the cover-up. >> it's not the crime but the cover-up.

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assassinate vladimir putin. videos on social media show an apparent drone flying into the kremlin and exploding on top of an iconic dome. multiple cameras in moscow captured the incident. russia says putin wasn't home but with the video, cnn has found no evidence of ukraine's involvement. and ukraine privately told the white house it wasn't them. president zelenskyy in finland with a flat-out denial. >> we don't attack putin or moscow. we fight on our territory. we are defending our villages and cities. we don't have enough weapons for these. >> here with us, kurt volker, the former u.s. ambassador to nato and former to ukraine negotiations under the trump

administration. thanks for joining us. what was your first reaction upon seeing that dramatic video of an explosion over the kremlin? >> well, to be honest, my first reaction was that this is the kind of thing the ukrainians are living with every day. russians are targeting their cities and civilian structure and they're facing this. for russians to see what that's like, i was actually -- i wouldn't say pleased, but thought this is a good thing for them to understand what russia is doing to ukraine. that being said, i also heard the kremlin's statement this was a ukrainian attack and they considered it a terrorist attack, assassination attempt against president putin. there my immediate skepticism goes up and says how do we really know, this is what the kremlin is telling us, do we have other information, and to this point, we don't. >> that's the million dollar

question here. despite there's not any evidence presented linking ukraine to this, former russian president medvedev is using this to call for the elimination of president zelenskyy of ukraine. what this seems to raise is the prospect this could be an excuse end of the day for russia or russia's allies to encourage further escalation. >> right. exactly. and let's stress again, we si simply don't know who conducted this attack and what message they're trying to convey. it is quite possible the russians did this themselves as a setup for exactly the reason you say. they want to escalate and create fear in western european capitals about escalation to put pressure on ukraine to tamp down the counteroffensive. this is possible and what

medvedev said fits that narrative of a false flag. but it could be ukrainians trying to signal to the russians, be careful because we can strike you if we want to. we're not doing it because we don't want to, but if we had to, we could. that could also be a message. and then a third option is these are people inside russia who are trying to send a message to the kremlin they don't like what it's doing. we can't really know where these things are, but this is clearly high stakes psychological pressure one side is putting against another. >> on that very last point you just raised, the prospect this could be coming from inside of russia, cnn's matthew chance spoke with a former russian lawmaker linked to militant groups in russia and he said definitively this was the work of what he called russian partisans. take a listen. >> some of them are focused on

railroad sabotage, some doing arsons or military recruitment, some doing attacks on activities, pro-war activities. some hacking attacks. >> we have seen attacks, somewhat mysterious attacks occurring inside of russia. this region, a train derailment. another in an oil storage facility. clearly this former russian lawmaker is saying that ukraine had absolutely nothing to do with this incident. is that plausible this could be an inside job? >> it is plausible. there certainly are groups inside russia trying to conduct activities like this. and they're getting some financial and other support in order to be able to do it. it is certainly plausible. i would not rule it out at all.

end of the day, i don't think we're going to know until the whole war is over what really happened. could very well be the russian government itself, the kremlin, staging this. it could in fact be the ukrainians with special forces operating in russia. i don't believe this drone flew from ukraine to russia, i think it was launched inside russia but who did it, we don't know. or it could be that type of partisan inside russia as the beginning of pressure against vladimir putin. it's all plausible and we don't know. >> either way, the reaction from russia might be the same, regardless who is responsible for it. we'll have to leave it there though. farmer ambassador kurt volker, thanks for joining us on "all of that". >> it's a pleasure. thank you. up next, the mayor of new york city joins me live in the studio as he accuses the texas governor of sending migrants to cities with black mayors.

plus a deadly encounter on the new york city subway system, a black man said to be acting erratically is dead after being put in a chokehold by another civilian. will there be charges? eric adams is with me next. what will you do? will you make something better? create something n? will you make our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the too and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you.

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tonight the manhattan d.a. is investigating a disturbing incident on the new york subway system. a man died after he was put in a chokehold by another rider monday. warning, this is difficult to watch. the tman in the tan jacket has his arm wrapped around the neck of a man in a white tee, the police have identified as jordan neely. two other riders jump in to subdue him. cnn has not independently confirmed what happened to lode to the incident.

and we don't know how long he was restrained or if he was armed. witnesses say he acted erratically but did not physically attack anyone according to the witness. he was found unconscious, given first aid when police arrived, transported to a nearby hospital and pronounced dead. the medical examiner's office ruled it a homicide due to chokehold. mayor eric adams joining me now on this and a number of topics. this is front of mind for your city right now, about what is happening in the subways but also about the death of this 30-year-old. what can you tell us about what led up to this incident? what do you know? >> it's still ongoing, and our hearts go out to the family in this terrible incident. the district attorney, as you stated, the m.e., medical examiner's office ruled the case

and now it's in the hands of the inve investigators to figure it out. it's unknown at this time. >> this hit a nerve because this man appeared to be having mental health issues, something you talked a lot about. but the comp troller tweeted that new york city is not gotham, can be have a human choked to death without consequence, also from ocasio-cortez, she said he was murdered. what is your response? >> the congresswoman and the controller -- the controller is a city wide leader and it's not responsible when we're still conducting an investigation. let the d.a. conduct his investigation with the law enforcement, to interfere is not

the right thing to do. i'm going to be responsible, allow them to do their job and determine what exactly happened. >> on the question of vigilantism, what do passengers do in situations like that? is it appropriate to take matters into your own hands? >> each situation is different. how a passenger -- we have so many cases of passengers assist other riders, we don't know exactly what happened here. until the investigation is thorough. each situation is different. i was a former transit police officer. i responded to many jobs where a passenger assisted somebody. can't blanketly say what a passenger should or should not do in a situation like that but allow the investigation to take its course. >> i want to move on to the issue of immigration. you've been talking about how it's affected new york city. next week title 42 is expected to end. estimates are there could be a thousand migrants coming to the

city every day. do you think that the biden administration has done enough to prepare for that moment? they sent 1,500 troops to the border this week. >> i want to answer that but go back to again the issue on the train. this highlights what i've been saying throughout my administration, people are dealing with mental health illness and should get the help they need and not live on the train. i'm going to continue to push on that. dealing with the migrant issue, i don't believe the white house has done enough. and i also believe the republican party has not done enough with real immigration reform. and governor abbott is reckless in his behavior playing politics with human beings. he's done this for a long period of time, since april of last year, and it's cost new yorkers since april of last year to july, up to this year, almost a billion dollars. >> what do you want to see from the biden administration as it relates to the title 42 expiration next week?

is there more that can be done now? >> number one, identify one person that is coordinating the decompression strategy. that's so important. this should not be one city or several cities, this is a national problem. then we need to expedite the money from fema. senator schumer, congressman jeffries and others got $800 million allocated through fema. and we must allow the temporary work status. that's so important. so many jobs need to be filled, that would allow us to ensure those who come here could be employed. >> what you were saying about greg abbott, he's been bussing thousands of migrants to the city, even today. you said he's sending them to black-led cities. yours, washington, d.c., chicago. are you saying here that he is doing this because of the race of the mayor of the city? >> well, let's be clear here, it

was placed in quotes on the front pages of the paper i called him a racist. i never said that. >> i never said that. >> didn't say you did. >> but black-led cities. >> the front pages of the post, not you. but he sent them to new york city, washington, d.c., chicago, denver. >> also philadelphia with a white mayor. >> i have not received any reports from philadelphia. i believe he sent them to where black mayors are. i don't know if it's to undermine large cities run by black mayors because of a political agenda or race, but i'm giving the facts where he sent them to. cities with black mayors. that's a fact, not my opinion or defining why he's doing it, just laying out the facts.

>> but you acknowledge, we did the research, he did send them to philadelphia as well, does that change your view? >> not at all. we have 108,000 cities in america, towns and villages. 108,000. look where he sent them. >> can you talk to me more about the impact of this issue on new york city specifically? you've said publicly, speaking of headlines, that migrants are destroying or have destroyed the city. can you elaborate how that has happened? >> i said migrants have destroyed the city? that's not. >> not migrants, but this issue of the migrant flow to new york. >> i've been clear since it first started to happen, the fiscal dollars that is coming with this issue of migrants is destabilizing our city. our migrants and asylum seekers are not the issue, we need to be clear on that.

it's what is costing the city and we're not compensated by the national government. this is predicted to cost us $4.3 billion as we cycle out of the pandemic. this is a major financial crisis to our city. our migrants, what i speak with them, say we just want to work, provide for ourselves, and we're not allowing them to do that. this is just wrong. no story, brownsville, el paso, new york, washington, no city should be funding a national problem. >> when you make this point, a lot of republicans in washington say right on, that's the point we've been making. what i want to ask you, do you see yourself as able to play a role in actually getting to a constructive place on immigration reform where it's needed most, in washington? working with republicans for example? >> no, i'm going to work with any mayor that would like to

coordinatat coordinate and assist in this national crisis we'reific facin. i believe in working with those elected officials, particularly the mayors. i spoke to the mayor of el paso and brownsville, all the mayors impacted by this, and stated we should coordinate together. it should not fall on the backs of mayors and cities to resolve a national problem. >> you're a strong supporter of president biden, fair to say? >> yes, it is. >> but this is an issue that republicans intend to run on as they run against him for the presidency. does it concern you at all that you might be viewed as feeding into a narrative being used against your political ally? >> no, what concerns me is new yorkers are going to be impacted. every service we deliver will be impacted by the financial crisis that's associated with the

migrant/asylum seeker issue. every service, every day. >> public safety including? >> everything. >> what is the concern with public safety and the flow of people into the city. >> i don't understand the question. >> you're saying it affects public safety? >> yes. our law enforcement had to do a program to eliminate the gap. 4% in efficiencies they had to find as all my agencies had to do. we had to find dollars to balance our budget and much we spent -- close to a billion dollars thus far came out of our coughers. >> thanks for all of that. a new racist text from ousted fox news tucker carlson, one that may have contributed to his firing, one sent after

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voting systems against fox news. in focus, a text sent by tucker carlson to one of his producers in the hours after january 6th, the capitol attack. he describes a fight he saw on the streets of d.c. a few weeks prior. it reads in part a group of trump guys surrounded an antifa kid and started pounding the living -- out of him, three against one at least, jumping a guy like that is dishonorable obviously, it's not how white men fight, yet suddenly i found myself rooting for the mob against the man, hoping they would kill him. really wanted them to hurt the kid. i could taste it. then deep in my brain, an alarm went off. this isn't good for me. it was reported by the "new york times." now joining me a "washington post" opinion columnist, a former trump official and ben

carlson adviser. and host of a radio show and columnist with the philadelphia daily news, author of "ten lives, ten demands." thank you. this is eyebrow raising. but if you watch tucker carlson's show, to me it didn't come as a huge surprise. but seemed perhaps to be to fox executives? >> it wasn't a surprise to me. what surprised me most is that tucker carlson didn't abide by the rule of thumb, if you don't want it on the cover of the "new york times," don't put it in a text message. here we are. he does that. but it is right in line with everything he said on his show, that immigrants make us dirty and poor, that there is a plot to replace white people with brown people. that somehow white nationalism was the core of what he said. no, what he said was not a surprise. i'm surprised he put it in a text message.

>> i mean, if you really look closely at what he's saying, to be clear, that what is honorable is how white men fight. to me, that is pretty clearly a white supremacist sentiment. end of the day, tucker carlson was dressing this up in a bow on his show, now it's in a text message and people are raising honest to god questions about whether this is the thing that did it. we don't really know. >> and we don't know what else is out there. it doesn't add up to me this would be the precipitating event that got him canned. of course he put it in text message, but he said it on live tv, not the exact words but the same message. what was the surprise or shock value of this as a fox news executive for example. what is different here. it's bad, don't get me wrong but the stuff he said on tv was

almost as bad, just as bad. makes me wonder if this is to head off other things coming out. >> when i first saw the text message, one, i sat and wondered how is this so long. who texts these long paragraphs. then it was like a deep thought seminar, something he was going to put in a book. still trying to figure out what it means by this is not how white men fight. but at its core, to your point, this is stuff he says on tv all the time. is it the reason he was fired, i don't think so. i think fox news probably got -- they realized they're under threat from multiple lawsuits. dominion was just the start of it. it's only going to get worse down the road. i think tucker needs to do a better job of explaining what it is he means when he says things about immigrants are bad, that white men don't fight like this, and to your point on white

nationalism. i was shocked when he said there's not a problem with white supremacy in this country. i was. >> i guess, look, i think tucker can do a lot of explaining on a lot of things. but the idea it's dishonorable to jump a guy and white men don't do dishonorable things, i don't need a dictionary for that, it seems clear to me. but katherine, you made an interesting point about the fox landscape here. they're inside of a publicly traded company with shareholders, a board of directors. they have to do something to show that they're not just going to write this massive, almost a billion dollar check and no heads roll. so maybe tucker carlson is the head that had to roll. >> i guess. i think fox news is in a tricky position strategically. they're almost a victim of a strategy they pioneered, to cast the rest of the media as the

establishment, the mainstream, they're the sole truth teller, they are, you know, the only ones willing to give you the unvarnished, uncorrupted truth, which sometimes veers on the side of conspiracy theorizing. if you're saying something nobody else is saying, sometimes that's what that turns into it. since then, they were founded in the '90s, they've become the incumbent, the establishment. look at their ratings, they have many more viewers than other cable networks, so it's hard for them to maintain that same positioning. meanwhile, there have been a number of upstart media organizations that have copied the same strategy, but outcrazied the crazies, right? oann, news maxx and other outlets. if you're fox, do you embrace you're the establishment or do you try to outcrazy the

outcraziers, leading to what we just saw. >> we'll see how it turns out. >> goes to the text message. to me it's delusional. it's not how white men fight, that's a delusion. if you look at rosewood, at tulsa, at january 6th, at the lynching of emmett till, all of the incidents that have happened with mob violence at the hands of white men, it's a mass delusion this is not how white men fight. everything that tucker carlson has done has been based in this hate. if you look later on in the message, he talks about how he would hate this antifa guy if he knew him. he hated donald trump passionately. that's what made him the lead person on fox news was that everybody understood that what he was doing was grounded in hate. >> yeah. i think just one quick point, i

can't believe i'm having to defend tucker on this, but the last half of the message he acknowledged by having these feelings he's becoming one of the people he hates, right? at least there's a recognition there on his behalf that he shouldn't be having those thoughts, which clearly he shouldn't >> i think he catches himself midstream, i'm writing this and have to correct it, maybe it will be on the front page of the "new york times" and it turns out. >> at that point he deletes the text message. it's going to his producer. i wouldn't catheri kathe look, the words that he said were wrong. the fact that he thought that was wrong. you have to acknowledge also that there was a recognition, wait a minute, if i'm having

these feelings and i'm becoming just like the people that i don't want to be, which is having this hatred towards another human being. >> to the point that he caught himself, that all of a sudden he realized this is going to be on the front page of the "new york times" that i better backtrack, no, just delete the text message. it's a text message that hadn't been sent. this wasn't two or three text messages in a chain and then he realized it. >> the fact that it was so long makes me think he had a lot of time to think about, to go back, correct it, fix the syntax. i'm an author and i was impressed that he could write a text message that long and that the text message actually made sense. i think he thought about what he said and knew exactly what he was saying. >> i don't know that he knew this would end up anywhere. it seems like he was texting freely thinking all of this would remain private between him and his producers. now of course we see it for what it truly is. and stay with us because coming up next on "cnn tonight," first it was whole foods and now it's nordstrom. alisyn camerota is delving into crime in san francisco that has major businesses fleeing.

also, the president's not budging and republicans are refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless biden makes some huge concessions, but with the clock ticking, senator joe manchin is making this bold prediction. >> we're not going to default. we would not default. they customize your car insurance, soso you only pay for what you need. with the money we sasaved, we thought we'd try electricic unicycles. whoa! careful, babe! saving was definitely easier. hey babe, i think i got it! it's actually... whooooa! ok, show-off! help! oh! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i'm christine mahon. i'm retired from public health nursing and from the army reserve. my retirement funds allow me to enjoy what i love to do.

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president biden is facing criticism from within his own party over his approach to the debt ceiling debate, and one of his critics is west virginia democrat joe manchin. the senator is set to meet with congressional leaders soon. he says he will not negotiate on the debt ceiling increase and will only accept a clean deal that will raise the country's borrowing limit. tonight senator joe manchin told cnn he doesn't expect a default, but refusing to negotiate he thinks is the wrong approach. >> we're not going to default. i truly believe that with all my heart, but to say gloyou're not going to negotiate when this representative form of democracy we have is all about negotiating. they're going to be together pretty soon next week or so and maybe you'll see that the grown-ups in the room do what needs to be done for our country

and put politics aside. >> my panel is back with me, and i think we all hope to have the optimism that this is just going to happen nicely and all the grown-ups are going to be in the room next week. is it wishful thinking, though, do you think? >> i am very concerned. just because this has been resolved at the 11th hour before including in 2011 and many other times when there's been some degree of debt limit brinksmanship, i think that is not a reasonable assumption to make that it will happen again. the party has changed quite a bit, the republican party has changed quite a bit since the last time we had a showdown like this. i think frankly the media has not covered the issue in a way that is clear to the public what is actually at stake and what it is republicans are asking for or rather not asking for. they have been very vague about what their demands are. they have these across the board spending cuts, but they don't actually specify what any of them are. i'd love to hear joe manchin to

talk about what it is he wants to cut. i agree we have fiscal challenges but we're not in a space where we actually know what's being negotiated. if you don't know what their demands are, i think it's very difficult to come to some sort of compromise. >> i would disagree. i mean, i think republicans in the house have been pretty clear on just an across the board cut. we just reauthorized, you know, debt limit a few years ago or last year, whatever the case may be, and what's interesting to me is that you have -- it's like ground hog day, and i've worked in d.c. for over 30 years, and you had in 2017, you had schumer, and you had pelosi both saying we need to sit down and negotiate this with the president, and the president needs to bring everybody together and negotiate this. now they're saying the exact opposite. >> that's not what happened in 2017. there was no threat of default. >> there's always a threat of default. but at the same time, if you weren't going to do -- >> there is not. there is not. >> if you're going to talk about debt limit. >> the country's been around

hun hundreds of years, we have never defaulted. >> there's always been debate. to continue to come back and say we're going to continue to lift the debt limit ceiling without having cuts. >> this is exactly the wrong -- >> i have to say what you're saying -- >> it's about past spending. >> i understand that, but you can still cut the things that were put in place. >> that's when trump was the president. he raised the debt ceiling without cuts, without take k the country to the brink, and he said that you do not negotiate over the country's ability to pay its debts. i mean, that's what trump said back in the day. republicans raised the debt ceiling under trump and didn't bat an eye about it. >> i agree. i'm not saying it's not the right thing. >> i think just to catherine's point, this is not how it's always been. this is a kind of more recent phenomenon to use it as a negotiating tactic, and man chin, i think if you're the white house you're probably worried. he may run for re-election, right and manchin may want to be

more closer to the republican side of this than his democratic colleagues. >> joe manchin is a guy who sat with the republicans at the state of the union. i don't think you can send a clearer message than that that you are actually on the other side. i think that joe manchin talking about i'm not engaged in politics right now, that's one of the things he said in that interview is absolutely false, and he could be a guy who could help the republicans get the cuts that they want by siding with them in this whole negotiation. there will be a negotiation, absolutely. what side will joe manchin be on. >> what form will those negotiations take, thank you all very much for joining us, and thank you for joining us tonight. cnn tonight with alisyn camerota starts right now. hey, alisyn. >> hey, abby, good evening, i'm alisyn camerota, two violent epi episodes in two cities to update you on. a suspect is in custody in atlanta after