year's open on mental health, and that initiative is going for a because the sport realizes, and i hope tennis can lead the way, not only with mental health, but all the with stronger safeguarding, to keep our athletes in the workplace as safe as possible. the 2 things really go together. >> oh, that is so true. and again, when you were coming up and you recognized some of the challenges we're seeing and hearing from amanda and others, people didn't talk about mental health. and they're talking about it now. and that is a good thing. and we should also note it is may, and may's mental health awareness month. and it is important to continue to shine a light on this, so that people can continue to discuss it. because that's the only way that people can get better. appreciate it. >> well, and dana, thank you for bringing up on your show. >> thank you. and thank you so much for watching. cnn tonight continues after a break. >> i'll take it right, now

dana. thank you very much. great to see you. all right, good evening everyone, i'm alisyn camerota. welcome to cnn tonight. the u.s. is bracing for tens of thousands of desperate migrants to try to cross the southern border in a few days. that's when the trump era policy expires, that allowed some ministry quickly turned away. already, men, women, and children are lining up for food, sleeping on the streets. when 150,000 people are reportedly just across the border waiting to cross. but it's the responsibility of congress to pass new immigration laws. so, what can the biden ministration actually do? our panel has ideas. plus, nobody wants to live in fear that we're only a day or two away from the next mass shooting. this past weekend saw another one, eight people killed, this time at a mall in allen, texas. the shooter was a 33-year-old who served in the military for three months. but a defense official says he was terminated years ago because of a mental health condition. the shooter appears to have posted a photo of a patch on

his clothing that represents a white supremacy group. of course, these mass shootings make us all feel helpless. so, tonight, we'll look at a bill in the texas house that could be getting some unexpected support. and there's a plan to pay reparations to african americans in california. john avlon, he's here with the debut of cnn tonight's reality check. let's start with what we know about the looming immigration deadline. the repercussions of this are spreading across the country. new york city mayor eric adams announcing a plan to send migrants away from his city to nearby counties, but officials there want no part of that plan. >> the mayor is engaged in human trafficking of the worst kind. he's talking out of both sides of his mouth about how wonderful he's taking care of people. and what he's doing, he's putting them in the worst possible situation. >> all, right we've got a lot to talk with my panel. we have cnn's john avlon here, the loss and elastins elsie anderson, scott jennings, who

worked with georgia bush in that white house administration, and right and comedian -- hughes. great to have all of you here, mckayla, welcome, thank you for being here. okay, so, texas does not know what to do with this amount of immigrants, migrants, i should say. york city cannot accommodate, they say, this level of migrants. what is going to happen on thursday? night >> i think you have a high chance of crisis, even though we're trying to marshal forces to stop the immediate flow. but the sheer number of individuals who are waiting for this to expire is a recipe for disaster, rather, compounding what has been a rolling disaster. but a couple quick things to keep in mind. first of all, title 42, that trump era policy, was predicated on covid. so, that's got to be -- where back to status quo. and the status quo forces broke. and so, the people who are politicizing this, it should highlight the fact that we desperately need to deal with our border. we need to balance comprehensive plan.

at the very least, we should be putting forward a plan that -- to be more aggressive about border enforcement in this -- . >> so, lz, as you know, new york city's four years as pride itself on being a sanctuary city. technically, that means will protect migrants from being deported by ice. but there was a feeling that it was a safe haven, basically, for migrants. and in fact, it was eric adams who tweeted before he was mayor, when he was running for mayor, we should protect our immigrants period. yes, new york city will remain a sanctuary city under a adams in his station. well, now when he's confronted with, i think they've had something like 60,000 that they've had to deal with this year, he -- i mean, he is changing that tone. >> you brought up new york. i immediately thought of fellow new yorker, i'm going to paraphrase a bit, but everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth. that's mike tyson. and it's true. when you think about everyone's campaign promise, it's all based on information they really do not have, because they're not fully on the inside

getting day-to-day data, day-to-day information as an elected official. so, they're taking a stab in the dark in a lot of ways. but with that being said, we have got to be stop thinking about this as a domestic issue. this is a foreign policy issue. because the migrants are coming from other countries. we're handling this issue from an american perspective, but if you really want to address, the problem we need to change our focus and the paradigm. this is -- this is different countries, different cultures. we contributed by our guns and our need for drugs. we need to have a come to jesus meeting and talk about this like adults, and stop talking. we need to -- the border, like that's really a problem. >> what do you think, scott? >> i agree. we're at the breaking point. there is not a single politician, you know, from texas to new york who knows what to do about all this. our political system has reached a breaking point. i think this is one the biggest political problems facing president biden. >> and what do you think he is supposed to do about it? >> well, it is the federal

government's responsibility to defend our border. there is a heck of a lot of americans who see people coming across as an invasion. >> right, but you are allowed to apply for asylum. that is one of the laws. >> do you think that every single person standing, waiting to come in on thursday, believes they are here for legitimate asylum? >> is that what congress said? >> or do you think they're just waiting to come in? >> look, i think the whole thing is broken. it's been broken. yes, we've been punched in the mouth, but we've been getting punched in the mouth for years and years and years here. >> but we started the fight as well. >> and our political system and covid failed to deal with it. so, i think this is going to be a bigger problem. and just one other issue on politics. political issues get really bad when there's video and pictures. we don't have people fighting what esoteric ideas. you can see what's happening. so, you can't go to the podium and say, oh, don't worry, which we have under control, what they've done. or, don't worry, it's not as bad as republicans say, which they've done. the republicans are gonna pass

a bill on thursday or the house. yes, it's a good start. the -- talk to the republican if he's serious about solving. >> mckayla, here is the house bill, i mean, the bill that republicans want to and will pass on thursday. increasing use of expedited removal, surge 1500 troops -- oh no, this is biden's plan. let me start with a republican plan, not all go to biden's plan. so, the gop immigration bill is keep the remain-in mexico policy. resume wall construction. ban funds for migrant charities. improve border surveillance technology and funding for more personnel on the border. >> i just don't see how any of that addresses the issue. i mean, if these are all things they propose in the past, they are things that are funded in the past, the wall, that whatever is there right now, it hasn't stopped anybody from trying to get here, having more of it isn't going to stop anybody from coming here. i think at the base of all of it is letting people come to this country with dignity. and i think that's, for me, as an american citizen, what seems to be the most fraught point at

this point. but people have always come here, seeking asylum, seeking citizenship, whatever. says now we have, you know, the political game book of let's put people on buses, that ship them out, let's use them as pawns. and frankly, i think people are tired of that. >> but do you think that mayor adams is playing political gamesmanship? in other words, if he sang his city, a sanctuary city, cannot accommodate them, is that political or is that reality? >> i think he's always been trying to win points with republicans based on his policies. i think he got elected -- >> true. >> largely because republican support him, i mean, i democrats always gonna be the mayor of new york, unless, you know, there's bloomberg, but come on. >> but bloomberg was -- >> and lindsey, and laguardia. >> right, and you have to have a level of being very centrist. and he ran on centrist ideas. >> right. >> and i think if he was, you, know owning up to the fact that new york is a very diverse city, when millions, tens of millions of people in it, then he would -- continue to be a sanctuary city. but he needs those votes.

>> so, let me put on my old used to work in city hall hat for a second. so, the century city point is ironic. but remember, it stemmed from a concern about public health. city has always been a nation of immigrants. the concern is that people do not go to hospitals or schools. they were afraid of the i.n.s. knocking on the door. when eric adams is dealing with, it highlights the fact it's a federal problem that needs a federal solution, and the mayor of new york has never dealt with this level of undocumented immigration, because all the sudden, he seeing it influx on the border in a way that new york and other cities and states were shielded from. >> sure. >> and that highlights the sense of crisis, and they are unprepared to deal with 60,000 migrants being dropped in their city to score political points. >> so, with a city as big as new york's unprepared to deal -- with >> exactly. >> how about any small town, or any moderately sized down along the texas border? terribly unprepared. >> this is why when you look at a state like texas, right, which is way more purple than what i think the average person knows. when i think about it, they think it's red. and why did these officials keep getting reelected? because democrats are not having these kinds of

conversations about this issue. and people who actually live on the border, people who live in these border states, the are real issues. these are ideas that are falling in the air if you live in new york, california, the northern part of the state, these are real day-to-day issues. and you are talking about cities, cities like san antonio. if there were all of a sudden 1000 more people introduce in a city like san antonio, i'm not sure what it could do. and that's a top ten city in terms of the u.s. population. >> look at the view of el paso. i don't know we have it. but there are tent cities on the sidewalk. people, they're having a hard time absorbing it. i mean, i hear what you're saying in terms of compassion for sure, but the practicality is these cities don't seem to be able to have a place to put folks. >> that's one hunted percent true. i think you can see the video. but i also think when you show the republican talking points about how they would like to handle it, the border wall is not the solution. a wall is a symbol. it is not in practice stopping anyone from coming in.

>> but -- >> having more personnel there, we've had more personnel there year after year after year. we're not losing people, you know, we're not losing that profession. so, i feel like we are just doing that thing where we put money towards enforcement of something that is not the heart of the issue. >> right, because it's not the northern border we should be talking about, it's mexico's southern border. like, they're coming from central america. and it's like there's a reason why, and we're contributing to those reasons why, and we're trying to have these separate conversations, but they're not intermingled, but they are. >> that's a more comprehensive coverage of the house be held policy wise. the biden station has a say, look, we need to invest instability and the central american countries. all of these migrants are coming from places like nicaragua and cuba, it is a larger problem, fair point. but look, every crisis contains an opportunity. and democrats need to understand this is not, as you say, some abstract issue. this is fundamental. the folks are feeling, but the biden administration needs to work with republicans, and it may have more border securities

and democrats in my life. a deal with a problem. feel the problem, congress. >> i think you're right. and i think just like on the debt limit, come thursday, it'll be the republican party in washington that passed the bill on both of these issues. >> -- why do that? we were having a substantive conversation on -- >> that little reality. >> and you are doing drive-bys. >> that's a reality in the public and party. >> passing legislation. you just said congress should pass bills. they passed bills on both issues. >> they should also not default on the debt. >> i agree. >> the republican party passed a bill to raise it. >> i mean, we want to talk about everything republicans are passing, because what about the guns? i don't think you want how that conversation. >> we are gonna have that momentarily. and thank you very much. and we are learning more tonight about the texas mall shooter. of course, we've got an epidemic of gun violence. of course, we are living in fear of the next one. so, what can we do about? we'll talk about it. in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services

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>> we are learning more about the gunman who killed eight people at a texas mall. sources say he use an ar-15 style gun that he purchased legally. according to defense officials, he was removed from military service because of mental health issues. his social media included posts about right-wing extremist ideology and his obsession with guns. one posed shows a tactical vest with the letters rwds, which stands for right wing death,

scott that's a local used by white supremacist groups. another photo shows a stash of ammunition. we're back with john avlon, lz granderson, -- scott, jennings and makayla hughes. this all sounds so similar, scott. do you agree that whatever the u.s. is doing, or has done in the past few weeks, is not working to stop mass shootings, and in fact, are increasing? >> yeah, i mean, obviously there are people who are at a minimum need for the review, that are getting their hands on guns. this actually reminds me, a few years ago in texas, there was a shooting of a former military member, i think he was in the air force, and yet some issues there. and that information did not get transferred to the database. and he wound up, was that the church shooting may be. so, similar, deal where you've got a guy who clearly had mental health flag somewhere that never made it into a system that wouldn't picked up by a background check. and when i hear republicans say, look, we need to focus on mental health, we need make sure those things get flagged, obviously, this guy had a mental health flag.

so, that's what jumped out to me about this one. >> so, scott, i'm just thinking with you, because you are, you talk to republicans, you are a republican, you're connected to republicans. so, when the fox poll, from, you know, two weeks ago shows the majority of voters favor these proposals, background checks on all gun buyers, 87%, enforcing the existing gun laws, 81%, legal age, going up to 21 to buy all guns, that's 81% of americans who require mental health checks. that's 80%. we're not doing that now. flag people, so, you know, red flag laws, that are a danger to the south, 80%, require a 30-day waiting period, not all states are doing that, 77%. why aren't republican seizing on this? >> well, there are some republicans that represent areas that don't share those views. i mean, that is a poll of americans. but you get into some areas of the country that are represented by republicans that are pretty red and pretty conservative, and they don't think that infringing on the second a minute, their second

amendment rights as a law biden gun owners, that's how they would see it, is a cure for someone, some crazy president goes out does something heinous elsewhere. so, it's a clash between national polling and i think individual constituents based polling. i think if you ask most republican members of congress, they would say they hear far more from those constituents in their districts and they hear from others. >> mckayla, your thoughts? >> i think their second amendment rights are the same as every other americans. and very clearly, it says a well regulated militia. but we're talking no regulation, we're talk about states like texas that are trying to allow more people to have guns with fewer regulations. and i think that those polling numbers show you that people take this seriously. like, this isn't just an idea. the idea that we could go to the mall and not come home with all of our family members is reality. there are people in the hospital right now. there's a little boy in the hospital right now who lost his entire immediate family.

so, when i hear about the gun rights that these people, you know, in their hypothetical, will they need to have an ar-15 in their house, why does that supersede the rights of a child to have a family? it is devastating. it is the biggest shame of this nation at this time. and i, frankly, i want, i hear you say the people in congress, republicans in congress, care about this issue. but what evidence is there that supports? that >> well, they did pass, i will just point out, bipartisan legislation passed in the last congress. you had top republicans and top democrats that join together. and i think they went about as far as congress -- >> i know, but the problem is it didn't address these things that so many americans say, by 80%, they want. >> yeah, not everything was in there that some people wanted. that's absolutely true. but it was hailed at the time is one of the largest leaps forward in several years. >> it was progress on an issue that has been stalled by special interests for a long time. those numbers you show, the super majority of americans, that was true after sandy hook.

and yet, nothing was done. and if you look, the american people's concern about crime is a concern about gun violence. this is rooted in fear. and the problem is because of our rigged system of redistricting, a lot of politicians feel they can ignore what super majority of americans want. but i do think, look, this is about, as these gun laws have changed, they've gotten easier to get guns, more guns. and at that, not only to an involvement of fear, but also extremism in this case, extremist ideology. that is a deadly combination, and we keep seeing the results of that. >> oh, he had the entire trifecta of things that made it just have access to gun. in this one shooter. lz, of course, on this program we look for small beacons of light where we can. so, in texas today, there are two republicans who join with democrats on a committee, okay, to vote a bill out of committee. so, this is basically procedural. however, it is a bill to raise the age in your home state from

18 to 21. they couldn't block that out of committee, but they did not. who knows what will happen when it gets to the floor. >> who knows what will happen when it gets the floor. it is a little beacon of light. would have been a year after the massacre in uvalde. you know, i hate writing about these shootings. but i write about these shootings all these time. because i would hate more not being affected by the shootings. and my biggest fear, really, is as the ineptitude of congress continues on, that the pilot -- and the public stops talking about it and that the we stop thinking that this is acceptable. and then we normalize it. and i start thinking about things like the internet, right. that was just, what, 20, 30 years ago. and now we have no control whatsoever. now we have gone introduce artificial intelligence on top of the situation we already have no control. >> it will get worse. >> it will get worse. i think about guns, i just sit there and go, you know, at some

point republicans, and i hate picking on republicans because i am an independent thinker. we just had a conversation that surprise both of us in the hallway. you know i'm an independent thinker. but the proof is in the pudding. it's republicans that is offering this up, man. i'm just being real with it. and they've been dragging this on, and our children are dying in schools at a level. i grew up when we had metal detectors. so, children dying in schools was it in and of itself shocking. but these numbers? >> there's no denying it. there's no denying that's getting worse. there's no denying that kids feel like sitting ducks in their schools. >> yes. >> and that's our reality right now. >> and republicans, there's no denying that the party most responsible for not having any progress on the list that you just presented. >> what are you guys talking about in the hallway? >> oh. >> oh, we talk about a lot of. things polemi just -- address >> [laughter] >> very quickly, very quickly. >> well, there is a fundamental disagreement between republicans and democrats over the root cause of violence. republicans would say there are

deep societal issues going on america that have nothing to do with guns, but everything to do with societal issues. and a fundamental lack of respect for human life and human dignity that transcends guns or any other weapon. democrats obviously, liberals, believe it's the guns. it's just nowhere near crossing lines on the graph right now. that's the fundamental debate. so, to say that republicans are effing it up is saying that i don't find your arguments of the root cause of this valid. just like on the immigration question we debated in the first segment. if i said you everything you just said is invalid because i fundamentally disagree with you, that would not be a very productive conversation. to me, where the rubber hits the road here is liberals are going to have to understand that there are people who take the second amendment, and they're individually right, according to the supreme court, to keep and bear arms very seriously. and conservatives are gonna have to take what you said, and what everyone else has just said here, about the need for safety very seriously. only then will anything move on this. and the poll numbers show the

potential political will somewhere in the soup. but it won't ever gel until there is a fundamental -- >> we have to go. >> validation. >> ten seconds here. >> ten seconds. greg abbott, governor greg, abbott said mental health is the biggest issue driving mass shootings. that man cut 200 and $11 million from the department that handles mental health in texas. so, when i say republicans are offering it up, i'm not taking it lightly, man. >> okay, thank you, really appreciate it, thank you very much for this perspective. let's talk about this. a panel in california taking another step towards reparation payments to black residents. each eligible person to get up to one point $2 million. how would california be able to foot the bill? well, the devils in the details. and john avlon is here to bring us his reality check, next. >> we're going to do some math. >> yes, we are.

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>> okay, we've got a favorite segment bring you on cnn tonight. john avlon is here with a reality check. so, john, great to see you. explain how california is

dealing with reparations. >>, ali, it's great to see to. reality check is back with you. all right, let's talk about reparations. the word is often used as a scare tactic from the right, or we distribution is to fantasia from the left. but, now we've got something more concrete to work with. because california official reparations task force just this weekend voted to approve its recommendations. now, their final proposal, which will be submitted to the state legislature next month, covers more than the cost of slavery to its descendants. remember, this is in a state that was on the union side in the civil war. now, the package also proposes payments for decades of housing discrimination, health care disparities, and mass incarceration. now, their calculations are based on equations that look like this. but the bottom line is that eligible individuals could receive up to one point $2 million each. and some economists estimate, get, this it could cost

california taxpayers between 500 and 800 billion dollars, with a b. now, this is much bigger and then california's total budget. just currently facing a 22 billion dollar deficit, despite having one of the highest state tax rates in the nation. so, that's a significant practical problem, right, compounded by the fact that representations are wildly unpopular. get, this a 2021 pew steady found that more than two thirds of americans oppose reparations. and that includes majorities of every age group, income range, and racial demographic, except for african americans. look, race is a fundamental faultline in our country, rooted in the original sin of slavery that extended through segregation. massive resistance to multi racial democracy is a recurring theme in our politics. but hundreds of billions in cash-based reparations, while perhaps morally appealing, is likely going to be counterproductive when it comes to uniting the nation going forward. dealing with enduring

inequities lower choir a more inclusive approach. like this, listen to what and then presidential candidate barack obama said to cnn back in 2008. >> the best reparations we can provide our good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed. strategies that invest in lifting people out of the legacy of slavery and jim crow, but have brought applicability and allow us to build coalitions to actually get these things done, that, i think is the best strategy. >> and that's the reality check. >> just as good as ever, john. it's back with a vengeance. well done. all right, let's talk about it. so, akilah, that sounds like a nonstarter if the solution, the financial solution, is bigger than california's budget. how, where do we start with? that >> we know the federal government. [laughter]

look, we saw the majority of black people support this because they're the descendants of people who built this nation. there are companies that are still rich, bold money in the u.s. comes from slavery. so, this idea that black people are going to get that money back through good schools, i have not seen it. >> so, you don't like barack obama's idea? >> 15 years ago, that looks like a totally different person. and i think he was running in a totally different climate in this country. could he have been outward about his support for reparations at this point? i doubt it. i think coming out of the bush era, we did not really have a lot of people talking about reparations. we did not have a internet as robust as it is today. our democracy was not talking to each other about these issues like they are now. you know, the reparations issue in california became a big deal because of the george floyd murder. so, i think that, to reference something that all, appreciate reality check rules -- >> [laughter] >> doesn't seem necessarily

pertinent as we are today. >> scott? >> well, barack obama in 2008 is an agreement with 80% of the american people today. by the way, if you are worried about california state budget, wait until i talk to you about the federal budget. [laughter] i mean, the idea of adding to this will be a total nonstarter with massive super majority of the american people. so, if you're willing to make an argument on guns, hey, we've got massive super majorities that want to do something, why are we doing it? we've got massive super majorities that don't want to do this. so, i'm curious about your thoughts on the political reality on moving on this. but all that having been said, to most people, it's going to sound like a blatantly unconstitutional redistribution from one group of people to a another group based purely on race -- >> like slavery. which is exactly what slavery was for this country. >> which is the deficit, i think, is the most important. it is not the state deficit, not the federal deficit, if the knowledge deficit. people don't know. people really don't know that wall street is built on the

backs of black people. they genuinely don't know. when the first lady talked about the white house and the outrage that she dared knew the history of the white house, it's because our education system, one, purposely kept that information apart, and to, some of the faulty schools did not do a adequate job. so, you have a lot of generations of americans who don't understand what reparations are, or the fact that this country has already given reparations multiple times. >> to whom? >> in flavors. >> and they gave each after the civil wars, because after the civil war, they gave a cash bonus, payment i should say, to people who had kept slaves. >> who had lost property is what it was for. we were property. shout out to you second a minute, that was forbidden to black folks, by the way. >> look, i think the macro point here is, first of all, we need much better education, full education but the range of

our history. what barack obama was talking about in 2008 was that if you want to bring together massive legislation to try to deal with these structural inequities, you are going to need to be able to appeal across political and racial lines. so, it's got to be inclusive in a way that deals with some those economic disparities. the basic math of this proposal doesn't work. and would not work for the federal government. this is california. but look, the conversation is evolving. this seems like a political and practical nonstarter, but it can be the gateway to a broader conversation about what we need to do and we need to invest in. but it's got to be broadly inclusive, otherwise politically it doesn't have a chance anymore. >> because it quantifies, at least makes an attempt to quantify what we've been talking about, and know about. which is systemic racism has purposely been designed to do this. and here are now numbers to support what we've been talking about. >> i think the other challenge,

in this came up in some of the research, is the vast majority, the majority of americans today, their families arrived, certainly in my case, after the civil war. so, that's part of a difficulty. when all the sudden, you're saying you are the descendants of slaves, who, what time, who pays, because it's the taxpayers, that means it's everybody. >> yeah, but also, everyone benefit. it even now, if you came here ten minutes ago, you benefit in america from slavery. >> right. >> yeah. >> it's just a fact. our entire economy was built, the strongest economy in the world was built for free for hundreds of years -- >> why don't you agree with that? >> so, how could that not be the basis? >> slavery, the legacy of slavery runs through american culture and our politics to the state. when the things i said is massive resistance to multi racial democracy is something we still deal with today. but the idea that every immigrant family today in america is benefiting directly from the likes of slavery, benefiting directly from the legacy of slavery i do not buy. because the legacy of slavery

is in the foundational roots of this country and this culture. but the idea that economically it provides a positive benefit for people who are new immigrants in this country -- >> why are they coming here if there wasn't an economic benefit? >> right, and was redlining not also something that, like, the neighborhoods they're moving to, they're able to gentrify? slavery was not like a stop, start, two teams, now we're done. we are still in that. >> all right, last word, john, i have to go. to have -- >> you say that a lot. >> i know, i do. and i noticed you guys ignore a lot. all right, you have five seconds of wrap up here? >> the direct cash payments are being put forward here today are political and practical nonstarter. but the larger conversation is one we can and should not have about educating ourselves in the country. >> and i appreciate the conversation we've been having. and those numbers are the beginning of education. because it's a pretty mind-blowing numbers. quantifying it like that is really helpful to see. so, for that we thank california for bay will to put it into, like, math today that we can understand.

thank you all very much. be sure to tune in the top of the hour when some of our favorite reporters are here to talk with a scoop there covering, including new polling that suggests president biden may have serious challenges heading into the 2024 election. but first, more protests tonight over the death of jordan neely, who died after being held in a chokehold on the new york city subway. will charges be filed? we are going to discuss the latest, next. flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterpririse control, vmwarere helps you keep your cloud options open. eva's about to learn her fear of missing out leads to overeating. i totally eat stuff to not miss out. and that's just a bit of psychology eva learned from noom weight. sign up now at noom.com weeds... they have you surrounded. take your lawn back with scotts turf builder triple action! gets three jobs done at once -

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[crowd chanting] >> tonight, protesters on the streets of new york, railing against the chokehold death of jordan neely on a subway last week. 24-year-old daniel penny put in neely a chokehold after neely was reportedly shouting at passers that was hungry, thirsty, fed up, and ready to go to jail for life. prosecutors still deciding whether to bring charges against penny. earlier, cnn's omar jimenez

spoke to a witness who saw penny put neely in a chokehold. he described neely then as staring off and being limp after penny released him. >> i looked from the window and stuff, and i saw his eyes were staring off, and he was limp. so, i went in through a another door, and i said to them to put him on his side so he doesn't shock on his own spit or something. and they flipped him over, daniel penny through his arm out really rough like, threw him around like that. and then i went through a another door, and i went to pour a little water on jordan neely's head, and daniel penny came up and told me to stop. he got over him and said stop. all right. and i should have, i should have been more, more on it, man, and not walked away, but i did. >> my panel is back.

john, do you understand why daniel penny has not been charged? >> i presume it's fact-finding, but he should be. there should be equal justice under law, a process should be applied. you know, this brings back, i think, memories are echoes of bernard gets, who was the subway vigilante in the 19 80s. and the answer to any of these difficult questions is apply the law, and it may not have the outcome that people wish to see, depending on your perspective, but you apply the law equally and fairly. but just a reminder when fear about public safety starts infecting people, that's where you see these vigilante moments occur. that is not to excuse them, but is a way of explaining them, and is a cautionary tale, because we cannot have that in a free society. we need to operate with. law >> a source familiar with the case, lz, said he was on the new york department of services top 50 list for homeless individuals with acute

needs. that means folks with acute needs, they're basically looked out, for theoretically, by the department of homeland -- homeless services, so that they're recognized, can try to get the help they need. i don't know what new york was supposed to do with jordan neely. >> it's what all the cities are supposed to do, take care of its people, right? like, that's, there's empty buildings all around this country, you know. empty office buildings, and i understand. i know what you are going to say, there are laws, there are policies. >> oh, no, no, no. >> there are things we need to pass. >> you did work in city hall. what are they supposed to? do >> what mayor adams is trying to do, which is quite controversial, is enforceable institutionalization for some people who are mentally ill. that might not look like taking care of people as some people might want. but one of things we're seeing in the wake of covid is that institutionalization has helped create an environment where people feel less safe on the street, and assault are up, even if murders and shootings are down in new york city for

the moment. that contributes to this environment. >> when you think of, that lz? >> this is what i mean take care of its people. do you know why he has to go? jail because it was the only place he could get food, water, and shelter. he was not asking to go to jail because he felt as if he was bad. he was begging for food -- >> while, that's interpretation. >> its interpretation, but he's asking for food -- >> there's homeless shelters all over the city. >> he's been arrested 18 times, was it? 18 times? >> maybe more. >> that indicates a large problem. that's not, you know, jail is not a place you can go for shelter. >> hold, that -- hold that thought, akilah. i >> just feel if we're going to talk about why we have those issues, why people feel unsafe on the street, we can't ignore the fact that our mainstream media talks about crime like it is in your house. like, they're coming to your door. you cannot turn down the wrong driver without getting shot, you can't ring the wrong doorbell without any shot, you can't scream on the subway

without being choked to death. >> but these are real stories. >> yeah, this is real. >> right. >> we are reporting on these things that are happening. >> absolutely, and these are -- those things are happening, you know, it's be getting itself at this point, right. where people are so afraid of this crime that is going to happen, they cannot ride a subway with someone who is yelling. they cannot get off the subway when they hear someone yelling. they can't offer $1 or just move. that amount of discomfort is enough to just act. and i think you are right, we've created a system where there's a lot of inequality, which breeds crime, which breeds mental instability, which causes these problems. and then we also have that other side of it which is a mental instability of people who can't even handle to see it. >> okay, go ahead. >> i think new york city has failed jordan neely. i think they're failing thousands of people every day. you see them on the street, walk around town and you encounter them. the difference is on this case if you saw him on the street and you felt like you are in an unsafe situation, you can cross the street. when you are in an enclosed

subway car, and you have a reasonable leaf that you or others might be in danger, that, to me, is the difference story here. i don't have all the facts. none of us were in the car. we don't know exactly the way neely was happening, but i suspect there is more to learn. >> no one else tried to strangle him. >> well, i don't know who is on the subway car. but if you are in a situation in an enclosed box -- >> people move between subway cars all the time. >> who you believe might be a danger to you and others. >> it is also, to your point, a comfort level to. like, i live in downtown l.a., skid row was not too far from where i lived. i saw a lot of homeless people, but i understood how to operate and not be panicking about it. but if you're coming from place where you don't have the exposure, and you come across someone who may be having a difficult moment, i can see why you would be fearful. but we can't have a culture in which your fear is allowed to take someone's life. >> right. i mean, murder is always illegal. and i know it's a legend. but the point is you can't just

start strangling people because you are afraid of what they might do. and i think, like, to be a person who is constantly online and hearing that, you know, it's an irrational argument that somebody being dead now because they're loud and some of those uncomfortable, that, to me, is beyond anything this country can [laughter] fix. we need to be on the same page about murder being wrong. >> right. >> all right, thank you all very much for that. and we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ (engine revs) ♪ the energy of light... everywhere. ♪ it just has a lot of control over me. ♪ i dream what i wish existed... and then i install my dream. the new 2023 lincoln corsair with available lincoln bluecruise.

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making it mandatory that airlines pay for meals, hotels, taxes, and other costs. i'm back with scott and lz how they feel about this, and they for some reason have switch brands. lz, you think there should not be a law, and the free market should decide. >> yes. >> i'll die on a hill, i thought i was super libertarian, i had no idea. >> as soon as i saw it, the first thing i thought of it is i'm a constant traveler, we all travel constantly. and one of the conversations constant travelers have is about the airlines. >> right? >> who flies where, what to avoid. let the free market decide. if this airline is terrible, trust me, we will stop using it, and it will go away. and something will come in its place. there is enough regulations in government right now. >> and suddenly, scott, you say no to the free market. you need government regulation. >> i so badly want to welcome lz to the republican party. >> oh, heck no. >> in this moment, i'm actually sympathetic to the president on this, because i think of

airlines is already being quasi-public governmental agencies anyways because the heavy regulations there under. and i do think passengers are fundamentally disrespected, and they're their constitutional rights violated the man they walk into an airport to the minute they walk out. so, i think we need a complete and total overhaul. i think this rule could be part of it. i think a rethink of the whole tsa experience. i think from soup to nuts we have so royally screwed up air travel and united states, that some smart person in the next administration could sit down and say, how do we respect passengers, respect the constitution, just get people where the heck they need to go. >> and you don't get soup or not on airlines anymore. thank you guys both very much. this is what you get on cnn tonight, a complete switching. you never know what to expect. that was great. >> on make sure you get ron paul's number. >> thank you. >> all right, thank you guys. coming up, some of our favorite reporters are here to talk about some the stories they're working on for tomorrow. they're gonna share their

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