>> just in, donald trump says he will appeal the decision from the manhattan federal jury that he sexually abused e. jean carroll in the mid 90s. you can hear more from the former president, right here, tomorrow night, at a cnn republican presidential town hall, anchored by my colleague kaitlan collins, that's 8 pm eastern. thank you so much for joining us. cnn tonight with alisyn camerota starts right now. hey alisyn. >> a, dana, great to see. you thanks so much. great to see you, i'm alisyn camerota. welcome to cnn tonight on a busy and unprecedented news night. a jury in new york found former president donald trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation in that e. jean carroll case. carroll allege that in the spring of 1996, donald trump raped her in a department store dressing room, then defamed her when he denied her claim and

said she was, quote, not his type. in just a moment, i will talk to natasha snowing off, who testified during this trial that she too was assaulted by trump. and our panel will give their take on what this means. plus, truth caucus -- george santos has been charged by the justice department in a federal court and could appear in court tomorrow. what does this mean for suter in congress, and what will republicans do now? and tucker carlson is waging war against fox for firing him. he's promising to re-launch his show, but in a place his audience may not expect. our panel shares their strong thoughts. but let's start with the verdict in the case against donald trump. after deliberating for two and a half hours, the jury found former president trump liable of sexual abuse and defamation, and awarded e. jean carroll $5 million. after the verdict, carroll released a statement, saying, quote, i filed this lawsuit against donald trump to clear my name and to get my life back. today, the world finally knows the truth.

the victory is not just for, me but for every woman who has suffered because she was not believed, and a quote. donald trump says he will file an appeal. so, let's get to our panel. we have our legal experts jeff jackson and elie honig, and caroline l, kara scannell, i start, with you because you are in the courthouse and watch this all unfold. what was this like, that moment, when the verdict was read? >> the judge is addressing, we have the verdict, we're going to bring everyone in at 3:00. and he gave a warning to the courtroom. he said i want decorum kept here. he said no jumping up and down, no reaction. so, everyone follow that. when his clerk read the verdict, the first question was, does this jury find that donald trump raped e. jean carroll? that was a no. and the next question, the jury find that he sexually abused her, that was a yes. and then from then on, it was all yeses for carroll. and she was sitting there holding the hand of one of her attorneys as this was being read. you know, she appeared to look very, very relieved, you know,

a smile, they looked at each other a few times, smiling as they went through. and the jury ultimately awarded her $5 million. what i thought was so interesting after the verdict was read in the jury was excused, trump's attorney, joe tacopina, walked over and shook her hand. given the external kind of fight, this whole case about the defamation case between trump and carroll, her lawyer went over and did that and shook her attorney's hands. we do have a reaction from trump tonight. he was on his platform truth social. and we should take a listen to that. >> what else can you expect from a trump hating, clinton appointed judge, who went out of his way to make sure that the result of this trial was as negative as it could possibly be, speaking to and in control of a jury from an anti trump area, which is probably the worst place in the united states for me to get a fair trial. we will be appealing this

decision. it's a disgrace. >> yeah, and so, is lawyer afterwards, he didn't leave the courthouse for more than an hour and a half. he did say he did speak to donald trump on the phone, came out and then addressed reporters and said, you know, trump felt he could not get a fair trial in new york. and he laid out on the areas they plan to appeal on. >> okay, let's talk about the appeal, elie, because you think he stands a good chance on appeal, yes? >> i don't has a better than 50% chance, no. but i think he has a few reasonable arguments to make on appeal. the main argument i think he's got to make is that the judge allowed in evidence that should not have been allowed in, including evidence of what we say is on the bad acts, and i know our gets, next guest is one of those. >> i know you're top of the pattern. perhaps donald trump had a pattern. why should those be allowed? >> because the law says the other bad acts have to be close enough in time and in substance to the actual act at issue. and here, the argument will be the allegation here, related to something that happened around 1996, e. jean carroll didn't know a date, yet the testimony came from one woman who claims

she was assaulted 17 years prior to that, 1979, and the other, our guest later, about a decade after that. i think the argument to be those acts were to remote in time, and it was therefore unfairly prejudicial. i just want to say. that's because i know this. judge judge kaplan, i appeared in front of him many times. that statement by donald trump is wrong. donald trump is not an idealogue, he's not a political judge, he's very much, as kara saw, this he is in charge of this courtroom. i probably appeared in front of him, i don't, not 100 times. until i heard, that i don't even know who appointed him to the bench. it didn't show. >> that's good to know. and she did say it happen in spring 1996, she had narrowed it down to spring 19, 96. joey, the jury awarded her $5 million for sexual abuse and defamation. how did they get to that number? >> i think a couple of. why is the first thing is that remember that a person who testified was an expert. and that person testified to how many people would've heard donald trump call this, call her a liar and a host are on our platform, up to 80 million

people. and then how many would've believed it? how many would've believed it, i think they said, almost 6 million. and then you get to the issue of what it would cost to repair the reputation, and there is testing to almost 3 million. so, this is not an exact science. and of course, as we noted, it was not about the money to her attorneys. they said that in as much as their closing argument. they did not ask for a specific monetary number. they just asked for vindication. and i think that's exactly what she got. >> kara, the judge said something unusual, in that he advise the jury you are now free to identify themselves, because they had been anonymous, you're free to identify yourselves, but i would not do it. but let me read it, basically, my advice to you is to not, not to identify yourselves, not, now and not for a long time. everyone who likes to speak to others and to identify yourselves to others, i directed not to identify anyone else. he said on the jury interview owes that to the other,

whatever you decide for yourself. have you heard that, before kara? anything like that? >> no, and particularly the judge, then i advise you. not i think the reason is, no, he decided in advance this jury was going to be anonymous. and the reason was because of donald trump's statements. this was, you remember, just a few weeks ago when trump was, you know, we are waiting for the indictment in the manhattan d.a.'s case, and then there was, you know, trump was out there publicly attacking the district attorney, also the judge overseeing that case. it was in that context that the judge decided in this case to make the jury anonymous, because of all the attacks that trump is making. and he wanted protect the jury, is not so they wouldn't feel intimidated anyway, but so they can possibly be contacted by anyone. in the process. he want to protect this trial, so it be a fair trial. >> okay, france, stick around, because i want to bring in now natasha stoynoff, who testified during this trial about her own experience with donald trump. she said that trump forcibly kissed her against her will during a photo shoot interview she was conducting at mar-a-lago for people magazine

in 2005. natasha went public with her allegations during the 2016 presidential campaign, and she joins me now. natasha, great to see you, thank you so much for making time. i know it's been quite a day for you. so, tell us what happened, what you thought, what you experienced, when you heard the verdict. >> first, i was shocked that it was so fast. so, i just assumed that that was good news. and my next reaction was real grateful mission to this jury. they worked really hard. these anonymous new yorkers, and unless they make themselves known, tomorrow, we're gonna be signature to all them in the subway and not know them. and they really did great work. so, i felt very grateful to them. the next thing i thought was it's really hard to come forward about these things. and especially hard when the man you are talking about is very powerful. so, i feel like when i heard

the verdict today i felt that nothing is more powerful than the truth. >> and, natasha, you did come forward. i mean, you did so, as we said, in 2016 and again in this trial. and what was that like? what was it like in the trial, when you are testifying, could you read the room, could you tell what the jurors, how they were responding to, what was that whole experience like? >> some of them were watching me and listening very intently. some of them were not looking at me at all. and i got to say that i was quite nervous before i got up there. i never done anything like that before. and i never actually had been told this story really, i just wrote it in people magazine those years ago. i never did any interviews at the time. so, i was nervous. but once i got a fair, something very strange happened. it was surreal. it was spiritual.

i don't know how else to describe it, but i felt like it was just me alone with that jury. and then is telling them something very important. and it felt, just felt like i was supposed to be there, talking to them. >> this case, of course, was specifically about what e. jean carroll was alleging. but, you know, you told a story about what happened, what you say, happened to you in 2005 and you are on this photo shoot. that you had this experience where everything was proceeding along as normal, and donald trump asked you if you wanted to see another room at mar-a-lago, well melania, who is pregnant, went up to change an outfit, and did what e. jean carroll described happening in that dressing room, how quickly it happened, how she was overpowered by donald trump physically, to add that all ring true to you from your

experience? >> it was very similar to mine in that way. i think that's one of the reasons why her team asked me to give testimony. there was the whole enclosed room alone and door shutting that was parallel to mine. and e. jean interviewed me for the atlantic magazine a few years ago, and talked about how eerily similar that was. and when i hear her details it reminds me of mine. >> so, when donald trump's attorney was saying, you know, trying to make something of an indictment about how she didn't scream, why did she yell for help, what were your thoughts? >> my thought was i am just like e. jean, in situations like that when someone is hurting me, and i actually said this on the stand, that i tried to speak and nothing came out. i think a lot of women, or man,

freeze and choke up. i know i do. and i think that's actually very common, very common. >> there are roughly 15 women who have made similar accusations about something that donald trump did. so, was this a victory for all of you as well? >> very much so. we were all exchanging emails today. i think that e. jean's victory, we feel it. it feels validating to us. and believe me, there are a -- there is a couple of bottles of champagne that are being in court to ring today. but we feel it is ours as well, even though it's not our case. >> course, donald trump says he's going to appeal. does that concern you? >> it concerns me, but, this judge, i don't know much about the legal system, but he does seem to go about this very smartly. and it's just something, it felt very airtight. i don't know what he needs to appeal. i think elie and you are

getting their can discuss that. but i hope that it was so strong that -- >> well, natasha natasha stoynoff, thank you so much, we appreciate your time, we appreciate you sharing what i was like in the courtroom and beyond, and telling the story again. we really appreciate you. >> thanks alisyn. >> coming up, congressman george santos now charge by the justice department in a federal investigation. it could see him in court in a matter of hours. that's next. gets three jobs dodone at once- kills weeds. prevents c crabgrass. and keeps it growing strtrong. get a bag of scotts triple action today, it's guaranteed. feed your lawn. feed it. - i'd like to speak to customer ser- - [phone operator] press one to speak to a customer service representative. (dial beep) i'm sorry, i didn't get that. (customer groans) - representative! - oh, buddy! come here. u need a hug. ohh, the you go. you also need consumer cellular. you'll talk to a real person, every time. - as nice as you? - much nicer!

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chris challenge, republican congressman george santos now facing a significant legal challenge. the freshman congressman who lied his way into the job tonight is facing federal charges. sources tell us that desantis could be in court as to his house tomorrow. i am back now with elie honig, we're also joined by writer, posed, and comedian akilah hughes, and joe pinion. good have all of you here. what are the charges here? >> we don't know, we'll find out tomorrow. but let me speculate based on the public reporting that is out. there i think it's gonna be one of two things, first of all, not a crime to lie to your constituents, not a crime to lie during a campaign. if it was we are a lot of people locked up. i think it's going to be both of two things. i want, if you lie in your election paperwork to the f. d. c, the federal election commission, that is a lie. remember the story we had all of these different expenditures

where he had exactly $109 and i nights, and i doubt that is next exactly amount. the reason echoed authors that is $200 or, more on the after give detailed reporting. that could be the basis for one set of charges. also, there is a persistent question about where does this guy get's money. he went from basically nothing it to having quite a bit of money very quickly, and he has been asked this. matt gates asked him this. >> let's listen to the. there are $700,000 that he could not account, for three years that. >> one of the principal critiques i've heard is that a lot of money was donated to your campaign by you, 700,000 i believe. where did it come from? >> i can tell you where it didn't come from, it did not come from china, ukraine, or burisma. how about that? >> that is an answer. >> i mean, even matt gates felt compelled to follow up on that and still do not get an answer. >> well, akilah hughes your thoughts? >> it does seem like chickens are coming home to roost. if you lie enough, eventually

somebody is going to find the truth. but, i like the waiting, i like the anticipation of what is going to be is it the lie that he is half black, is -- none of those things are crimes, but maybe it will come up. i just want to see him on a stand at some point explaining what is true under oath. >> just to recap for you, here is some of the falls -- it is a not exhaustive list because we only have an hour. so, falsely claimed he had jewish ancestry, his grandparents were holocaust rivers, that his mother was at the trade center on 9/11, work for goldman sachs, graduated college, played college volleyball, i mean there is so much more but those are some of the hits. here is how that gop joe is responding to these charges. i will read you some of these responses. congressman mike waller says i

rewrite my call that he should resign. malliotakis says i'm not surprised, i understand this is where it was headed. congressman hill says i do believe a member of congress is charged with a federal crime issue design and then congressmen rising cases that i'm surprised he made his long as he did. those are ringing endorsements of congressman dos santos. >> again, whatever you think of our political differences, we have the nassau county gop that called for his recognition when the lies were discovered we had. the state gop echoes many of those same sentiments. much of the new york state congressional delegations also echoed those sentiments. so i think at some point the reality is that, yes, it is comical to charcoal about the jewish, or how many spikes on the volleyball court did he have, but to your point, the million dollar question or 750,000 dollar question was always going to be where did the money come from? how did somebody who in a 2020 election cycle was recorded as

making $55,000 a year suddenly one cycle later be able to afford to lone his campaign around $700,000 while his sister was effectively being -- at the same time? those are some of the stuff that i anticipate we will see in those papers that are released tomorrow. >> the charges, this is not a conviction, so what is kevin mccarthy no? >> the standard, they just how terrible gun member of congress who is charged and convicted. >> but that's convicted. >> that's what kevin mccarthy pointed to today, we have through this and we did not expel him while he's on trial, the house rarely acts to expel its own members. a lot of members will resign at some point when they get involved in the sort of situation, but i assume that one of the things that george santos is holding on to is that if he is getting into a position where he has to strike a plea agreement with the government, one of the chips that he has is that he can agree to resign as part of that agreement. attorney resigns, and giving

that up and he does not have that option as part of the prosecution. so, i do not think that he is likely to go willingly. mccarthy, there is a tension for republicans, nassau county gop would like him gone because they're like a normal republican in that seat, somebody who is involved in national county gop. >> let's go to beyond that, to be fair, i think we can all agree that many people are deeply offended by this attempt to kind of co-op this jewish history. they are deeply offended by the notion that they would try to -- the military veteran and the dog, i think again, we can chuckle about it but they are not laughing matters. there are many constituents in and why three who are deeply hurt, many people, donors that i know that put their faith -- >> you think he should resign? >> i think that the factual reality that we face is that you are innocent until proven guilty. it is more likely than not that a great number of the things that he is accused of our. true >> but you're okay with him staying in the position in till he --

>> i am not okay, i think that george santos should have resigned a long time ago. i think that would've been the good and decent thing to do, but as a matter of principle, to ensure that again we have her treatment across the board whether republican, democrat, people should be able to have their day in court. >> elie, that is interesting with josh raised which is that he will hold it as a chip and say look i will resign. but that is not what the governor asked him to do. is that normal part of a plea agreement? >> it's rare that you have a case involving elected official, but i suppose it is something that could come into play in negotiations. it certainly not in the handbook, of the doj handbook, but you do need to look at the bigger, broader picture here. one of the questions i think for all of those members that we just saw the quote saying i condemn them, will you vote to expel? i do not know what the answer will be, it takes two thirds, meaning that you need about 77 republicans if i'm doing this math right to expel him. i do not think it's particularly likely for the reasons that joe has said, but let's keep in mind that if we

look at the timeline here, from the time until now until a trial, until sentencing, until an appeal. nothing is final until an appeal. >> i was sensing from your own facial expression that you could not imagining the point where they would actually be expelled? >> of course not, this country is predicated on, it is a two party system, we have a few fringe elements, but the reality is that they are going to keep that majority anyway they can, they are not going to do the honorable thing which is say hey, the american people deserve better than somebody who is under investigation to this degree and so we are all going to want to watch the circus at one we have real issues that we could be dealing with instead of we are going to listen to him live more. >> i think some of the stuff, i'm interested in seeing how he accounts for some of the stuff. he has had changed in the treasurer, and then he effectively they changed the entire structure of the loans first, first day was one momsen

of 5000, then it came over -- a >> in the past, you saw what he did there with matt gates, he deflects. general he changes the subject. >> i think the true test for republicans is that he is already unchecked the box that said the $500,000 was from him personally. if he goes into a court proceeding that says, in fact, he did not come from me it came from x or y, if he stipulates that, within the revolution will have no choice but to have him expelled. at that point, is effectively acknowledged that he is a broken campaign finance laws in ways that one cannot even begin to comprehend. >> quickly on? >> i'm skeptical that we will see financial transactions that actually matchup with all of the items that are on the financial reports. just because you report that you pay $190.99 does not necessarily mean that you did. one possible explanation for how he got the money and put it did in his campaign account is that he did not really. if you claim that you lone air campaign money and then you lost your congressional

election, then he repaid the launch yourself of the campaign that could be a way to get money out the campaign leader good into it. i am interested to see whether we put that stuff in. >> stay tuned everyone, thank you very much for all of that. meanwhile, parker carlson making a big announcement after being booted from fox. he is taking his show to twitter, what does elon musk have to say about that and what is a show on twitter anyways? we are going to get in all of that,, next.

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well -- this work. >> tucker carlson announcing plans to relaunch a show, this time on twitter. carlson made the announcement in a video posted to twitter. >> you cannot have a free society if people are not allowed to say what they think is true. speech is the fundamental prerequisite for democracy, that is why it is enshrined in the first of our constitutional amendments. amazingly, as of tonight, there are not many platforms left that allows free speech. the last big one remaining in the world, the only one's twitter where we are now.

>> my panel is back we also have los angeles time -- and see any analyst sarah fischer is joining us as well. sarah, he said, tucker went on to say that he is going to put his show on twitter, what is a twitter tv show? >> that's a great question i think we're all dying to find out. twitter has character limits but when you subscribe to twitter blue, a subscription service, you get a little bit more space. you can add a video to twitter, not a full hour length of video though, alison. that's going to require a lot of work on the back and. i would imagine if you to do a show it would be truncated, so would not be that full hour that he had it faulk and you might want to break it up. maybe you put out some segments in different tweets, it said right. but as i understand right now, they are going to have to race to build that type of functionality to get a full hour long show there, although they do have live functionality so if you wanted to go live and put a twitter show up, i think it would be possible. >> okay, that is interesting. tucker, your reporting, sarah,

that tucker is accusing socks of fraud and breach of contract. so how does he say that he defrauded him? >> basically what he is saying is that fox executives, what sources tell me, is that fox's chief legal and policy officer murdoch himself made promises to carlson saying that if you handle your personal communications will safeguarded, to make sure it does not get leaked. and then now he is saying, look, it has been leaked, it has been reported on in the media, and so you have a been broken a verbal promise to me and that, carlson lawyers are saying is a breach of his employment contract because a breach of the employer and a person who's working for the company has changed. of course that will be up to court to decide whether or not that will actually be considered a breach of his contract. >> okay, thank you sir very much. let's bring in our panel now. josh, didn't they have to hand it over in discovery? why is fox responsible for that?

they cannot responsibly for all of this? >> there is a number of accusations in this letter to fox, including that he claims that one member of the fox board told him that it was a condition of the settlement that they would fire him. >> so dominion foxes both deny that. it does not make sense for dominion to demand because tucker is not even at the center of their allegations, but it's more about -- engineer and various other people, and dominion does not get any real financial gain from them firing tucker carlson, so the first notes is just because tucker carlson has accused vox of doing certain things or something that he is done all of them. a lot of people have been speculating about various materials that have gotten to the media since tucker carlson's firing, including that text message in which he is commenting on this riot band saying that this is not how white people fight and that fox is concerned is that people are going to find out that tucker goldman was racist and that is why they fired him. >> breaking news.

>> the idea that fox is behind those leaks, i do not find that idea crazy, given the way that foxes dealt with part of the talent in the past but i think this is all never get of the fox -- tucker wants to be out there in the arena, he is not allowed to go and do another show unless fox lets about the contracts of our fox's been continuing to pay him. they can keep him under contract until after the next election. >> i guess the bigger question guys is what does this mean for the world? what does this mean for the world? if he does not have his powerful platform on fox, which is a powerful platform, and it is on twitter, does that suddenly reduces power? >> i think is power has been so greatly reduced. they say they even have a twitter show, we are all asking what that means because it is not a thing. i uploaded videos of my dog, my dog does not have a twitter show. and so, i think that this is a man who has been embarrassed publicly, has lost his job publicly, this feels like a last gasp in the same way that elon musk owning twitter feels

like a last gasp of trying to be relevant. it is a dying social network, nobody knows who is verified, people are very fight now unhinged. i do not see what he gets out of this. the audience is largely older and does not know how to have to factor verification, especially not using their phone. so, i do not see this as some great come back i see this as diminishing returns in every way. >> that's interesting, i would also caution that reports of his demise may be premature because tucker, i think, does have a grip on a large portion of america and is a, if you read the comments under his announcement, people are like i can't wait. the hail was a fox, they are ready to go wherever you're going. >> the question about power, we first need to define how we are to fighting power. yes, he lost the power from being on fox, but what other power does he still have and how is he going to use that power because, as we saw, fox

was just one aspect of his influence. he is influenced in a lot of different areas in terms of everyday life and while he may not have the same audiences on twitter, he may not need to have the same size death assimilate or greater impact. power is not simply about twitter followers or simply being on television, power is what is happening -- >> thank you for that, i like that. >> one of the ways that he had power is that he did have the ear, and in fact often more than the ear of some politicians like kevin mccarthy. kind mccarthy to hand over the tapes from january 6th, he was influential in republican political circles. it will be still have? that >> that influence still exists, will it wane a little bit we will have to see. if you look at somebody like ron desantis is easily able to get the message out, whatever that message of the week was, they put on the placards on the

front of those podiums. so yes that is going to change a little bit, do not necessarily dismiss twitter right away, certainly he is probably going to deal with the fact that a large portion of that 3.6 million who are tuning in do not have the two-factor authentication, do not actually know where they can even download twitter from. but, there is also the potential for new audiences. i made the comparison to somebody who says that they are a member or supporter of planned parenthood versus a member or supporter of the nra. even though they have not given any money or 8 to 10 or 20 years. it is that type of synthetic organization of people who support someone, and many of them had been getting that information in a digital landscape via facebook, via twitter, so i just think that there is the opportunity even if you're not necessarily watching him live, during a twitter live for those clips to be recorded, to be dispersed through youtube, through a vast multitude of increasingly

fractured but also growing digital spaces. >> sarah, that there was another plot twist about all of this and that is what elon musk had to say about it. he said, i also want to be clear, this was after tucker's statement, that we have not signed a deal of any kind whatsoever. tucker is subjected to the same rules and rewards of all content creators. that means inscriptions, advertising revenue, shares, which is a function of how many people subscribe and the advertising abuse associated with the content. i hope many others, particularly from the left, also choose to -- be content creators on this platform. i think that is a strange announcement, announcing that you just landed your biggest star. >> right, expect him to welcome tucker with open, arms and wait a, minute you're subject of the same rules as everyone else, we're gonna fact-check you with community notes, just like everyone else. look, elon musk has a tough job on his hands. he's got to bring advertisers back, make sure users stay on the platform. and he knows by being on a

polarizing figure like tucker carlson, even if he's really popular on the, right that could jeopardize his ability to continue to grow the business. so, that's why i think you seem responding in a different manner, saying look, i think it's great that you're here but we're not going to give you special treatment just cause you're doing this show with us. the last thing i'd say, alisyn, is that tucker is going to explore other options. i don't expect the twitter thing to be the only thing he does. newsmax chris rodeos said we could still welcome a show with carlson. so, male trial the twitter thing. i think he likes the zeitgeist and the opinion leader focus of that audience. but he'll probably do other stuff as well. >> sara, thank you very much for reporting, great have you. all right, france, stick around, because after richard dreyfuss is pushing back at new diversity guidelines for the academy awards saying they, quote, make him vomit. we'll explain as reasons, next. >> because it's patronizing. because it says were so fragile that we don't, can't have our feelings hurt. ♪ ♪ ♪

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>> well, actor richard dreyfuss has some strong comments for the academy awards new diversity guidance. speaking with pbs margaret hoover, drivers slammed the new rules on diversity and inclusion standards for best picture eligibility. >> they make me vomit. >> why? >> because this is an art form ba. it's also a form of commerce, and it makes money. but it's an art. and no one should be telling me as an artist that i have to give into the latest, most current idea of what morality is.

i'm sorry, i don't think there is a minority or majority in the country that has to be catered to like that. >> all right, let's bring in the panel, see what they have to say. so, lz, here is what the academy wants in terms of the criteria. here's the new criteria. films much films must meet at least two of their -- to meet best picture. this includes representing under representative actors in significant roles, or kind of released 30% the cast. similar criteria in terms of working on the film behind the scenes, a significant commitment to paid apprenticeships, creative outlet, significant representation among the teams of marketing, publicity, and distribution. so, i assume he's saying that none of that has to do with creativity. that he is saying he's an artist, and maybe even those kinds of bureaucratic mandates hurt the art. your thoughts? >> well, he has built his career being able to take

advantage of all of the dynamics of systemic racism, that hits every aspect of american life, including hollywood. and it would have been great for mr. haaland, if he had decided to fight for what's right back in the 90s when he was on top. this seems more like sour grapes. this seems more like an out of work actor, and i need to blame somebody. oh, i want to blame the brown people. i'm sitting here going, i think the most important aspect of this entire conversation has nothing to do with what's in front of camera, but actually what's going on behind the camera. because as a person who's worked in media for as long as i have, 20 plus years, i can tell you i've seen plenty of networks sprinkle it'll dust from the camera. and its baby powder everywhere else. so it's important at the oscars point that out, and that's part the process as, well so much are mr. dreyfuss, i'm sorry that you have to share all of a sudden. but if you really feel committed about the blackface, go for it, bro,.

>> you, yeah he was saying he can't play a fellow, what a travesty. i'm saying do it. there's no parlors rules that you just said that say he can't be in blackface. i doubt anyone care to see. it i don't think he'd be nominated for an oscar. so, i'm just confused about why he chose to speak. seems like he needs to feel relevant. he -- denzel being nominated for mcbath, there was a great performance. i just don't think his concerns are relevant to the reality of the rules from the academy. >> look, i think for, me i'm less interested in the comments of mr. hollins opus. i'm more concerned about the reality of what is attempting to be achieved. you, know i'm old enough to remember when we had 227 on tv, when we had rock on tv, when we had strong black roles in primetime. they were underappreciated, they were underpaid, but there are certainly getting people to watch. and my concern is that even if we look at something, you know, as dissimilar, but also similar as the nfl, where we've had the

rooney rule in place, we're in forcing nfl franchises to interview black coaches for senior football positions, the result, nearly a decade, later they speak for themselves. it is not working. so, for me i, get tired of people of color, black people, hispanic people, begging others to do what we have the power to do for ourselves. and when i look at something as recently as tower heise, which was supposed in the words of eddie murphy, a black oceans 11. and yet again, we did not have the wherewithal to come together, are the resources put aside, to be able to make something like that to come to fruition. to me, heck with the oscars. who cares about your cheap trophy anyways. i think, again, we have to find better ways to come together as a community of creative, to make sure we are represented behind the camera, but also to make sure that we are doing our part to make sure the tyler perry is not the only person in the studio, to ensure we can actually bring those great stories, the first black emperor of rome, right, to talk about people like robert smalls, who still that confederate ship,

to talk about the fact that the first person ever shot in the revolutionary war was a black man. i mean, these are great stories about black people connected and rooted in the american experience. >> but you don't think people can mandate that the academy can mandate that these -- >> i'm certain that it's not going to work. because people who people hire who they know, they do what they want to do. and at the end of the day, to your, point power concedes nothing without a demand. but if you're not holding that handle of the, knife you're still holding the blade, to me, again, we are not learning from history. we should be focused on committee other. >> the way this rule is structured, where you have to be two of the four criteria, you can do it just on the back of the apprenticeships and marketing part. which this means for major studios, this is a budget line item. they can take a movie that has whatever level of representation on screen and the production, and get it to qualify by throwing money on the other two categories of this. so, i think it is a little bit of an empty gesture. i also don't think it's an appropriate role for the academy. i think the category is called best picture. you're supposed to be a valuing

the product, not the manner of the product was made. and i think if members of the academy want to vote for a film that is metoo of the four criteria, i think they should be able to. it does not make me vomit. i don't have a strong opinion about it in the way that richard dreyfuss apparently does. but i think this is not the function of an award like this. that's a function of the studios themselves, and the commitments that the studios choose to make. >> we know the studios aren't really -- >> i want to push back on the idea that the idea to be a best picture doesn't include the production part of it. because producers -- are not onstage, it is the actress director. and oftentimes, the producers is the one who is talking. so, they represent not just the are in front, but the entire production, which would include who is actually shooting the film, who's doing the makeup and hair and et cetera. >> right, but best picture, not best production. yes, they awarded to the producers at the. and but i don't think it's the rule of the oscars to set out guidelines about the manner in which the film should be made. it's supposed to be --

>> but why not? >> it's a criticism exercise. >> also, are we pretending the america -- or we pretended the oscars are meritocracy in any sense? they are not, at all. the movies are supposed to be. but are they? i mean, like, literally the movies to get, made it's all political, from the beginning of the process to the end. so, to pretend that this is like an actual olympic chorus, we're influencing something that is not already heavily influenced. the actual academy that votes for these things is already overwhelmingly white. so, it's not as if changing the things that happen behind the scenes is gonna change is voting, the electorate, what's happened historically. i just think it's silly for an actor to be this upset about it, when the reality is these studios are going to do whatever they can to keep the exact same stuff in place. >> you mentioned the history we've seen of white actors taking black, roles and the roles of other minorities. >> no one's, i mean, scarlett johansson still exists. >> to that point --

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