. today is cnn's 43rd birthday. and to mark the milestone, staffers and alumni gathered to take photos in front of the iconic letters in cnn atlanta. the building has served as cnn's global headquarters for 35 years. all operations in atlanta are moving back to the original location, just across town, where ted turner launched cnn on this day back in 1980. and two cnn town halls coming up to tell you about. jake tapper hosts a town hall with former south carolina governor nikki haley sunday at 9:00 p.m. and wednesday at 9:00 p.m., our dana bash moderates a town hall with former vice president mike pence. cnn prime time with abby phillip cnn prime time with abby phillip starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

thank you, anderson. good evening, everyone. thank you for joining me. this is war. and that may actually be the nicest thing that donald trump has said in the last 24 hours about his former friend and now foe, ron desantis. both of the men crisscrossing the early voting states today. desantis has been on a blitz in new hampshire, and trump was in iowa. but here is a taste of the back and forth that has really escalated over the last 24 hours on everything from the debt ceiling to -- >> ron, as i call him, ron desanctimonious for a reason. >> i think it's so petty. i think it's so juvenile. i don't think that's what voters want. and honestly i think his conduct, which he's been doing for years now, i think that's one of the reasons he's not in the white house now. >> when he says eight years, every time i hear it, i wince. >> i think it's a project that will begin on day one, and it will require a daily grind for not just one term but i think

for two full presidential terms. >> but when i heard desanctimonious go out and say and talk about eight years, we need eight years. we need six months. we can turn this thing around so quickly. if you need eight years, who the hell wants to wait eight years? you don't need eight years? >> president trump said he could do it in six months. >> why didn't he do it his first four years? in terms of the debt limit, yeah, i think he should come up. i mean, are you leading from the front or are you waiting for polls to tell you what position to take? >> i would have taken the default if you had to, if you didn't get it right. >> he used to say how great florida was. hell, his whole family moved to florida under my governorship. are you kidding me? >> and that was only week one. the mud slinging is only going to get worse, especially with this republican field that is about to expand yet again. now, if trump is ticked off about desantis, what is he going to say when mike pence, his

former vice president, jumping into the race next week, and chris christie, who led trump's transition team, is also about to announce his bid. he's also made it crystal clear that he's not going to hold back trying to take down trump. joining me now at the table is former dnc communications director, national review senior editor, republican strategist rena shaw, and "l.a. times" columnist, granderson. now, this trump/desantis matchup has really heated up. i mean, i feel like just a week ago we were talking ability, will desantis really hit at him? he's hitting at him. >> yeah. and he's starting to name names. that's the important part right now. we need that. we need that fight from desantis. when i say, we, we the people who don't want donald trump to become that 47th president. i say this. in the moment we're in, it's so delicate for desantis. and he's got to do this dance, but he's got to do it well for a long time. we're so, so early out.

so, i say the biggest and best thing either of these men can do or anyone serious in the gop field right now is focus on the delegate math. you know it's still early. but focus on the delegate math in the early states and also be judicious with your money. this whole thing will be defined, gop primary, by who runs out of money first and where they're spending it. >> i would argue there's probably not a huge risk that desantis is going to run out of money quickly. but at the same time, you know, narrative really matters early on in these contests. and the early states, of course, matter. but numbers like this cnn poll that's showing trump basically doubling desantis at a national level. sure. but desantis needs to turn that narrative around. >> he does. he needs to turn that narrative around. but he does need to do it in those early states. once you start to see movement in the polls in iowa -- and iowa, i think, really is the ball game on the republican side. new hampshire is going to be important. but if chris sununu gets into

the map a little bit with two south carolinians in the race. will the south carolina primary be as potent as it usually is, as deciding as it usually is. iowa is the place where any alternative to trump has to make a move. so, it's smart that they're all spending a lot of time there. but the narrative does matter. if you want to take out donald trump, you have to take on donald trump. and desantis is really the first guy to do that throughout this entire campaign so far. every one of the rest of them has been tiptoeing around this because they don't want to upset the maga base. he's saying, you know what? i'm more maga than trump is, and i'm going to call him out on his record. the only other guy who seems interested in doing that is chris christie, who seems to be on a kamikaze mission simply to take out donald trump. so, it's going to get more interesting. >> something interesting happened today. this new hampshire state representative, james blaine, he

switched his endorsement from trump to desantis. listen to why he decided to do that. >> it's become evident, especially with the latest attack on kayleigh mcenany that there's no loyalty in him. he can't be trusted to stay loyal to the people who have supported him in the past. and it's a problem. and those kind of negative attacks and the vitriol does not play well in new hampshire and it's not good for the united states. >> well, that's quite a straw to break the camel's back there. the attack on kayleigh mcenany. >> he would be maybe the last person to realize there's no loyalty there with trump. >> this is a man who was just found liable for a sexual assault. and the thing is this criticism of kayleigh mcenany that finally the scales have fallen from his eyes about the character of the former president. >> and specifically trump was criticizing kayleigh mcenany for misquoting his polls, instead of

showing he was up over desantis by 34 points, she had it at 25 points. and he was really upset about that. for desantis, is this a win? >> i guess. this is so sad though, isn't it though? weren't we hoping for something better, something more besides arguing over poll numbers in the month of may? this is so sad to me. you know, desantis has a very tricky plank to walk because he does need to attack. but he can't alienate the trump voters. and i wonder if the fact that trump has a record this time in a primary will make it so that it won't just be desantis that will be able to attack them, but the other members. the first time he ran in a primary, he had no record to really antagonize or to critique or to pull apart. now he does. it's a lot harder for him to duck and dodge and misdirect when there's an actual record that even his voters are aware of. >> what do you make of the eight years versus four years argument that you heard in the montage we

played earlier? >> with trump, he's got such a problem with numbers, and that's where i stay fixated. this guy doesn't understand anything when it comes to numbers. we all know how he wanted to inflate his inauguration day poll numbers. i think he continues to go down this path of weakness. he starts to make himself continue to look more and more foolish. and in that, what will happen is that there's going to be less serious conversations about kitchen table issues, and voters will get dragged into the misinformation that runs rampant in today's gop. >> i have a serious question for you. i mean no shade by this at all. how much more foolish can he get to the point you see it impact him politically? from my perspective, he's had a lot of opportunities for voters to say, you know what? that's foolishness. he's not serious. i'm turning my back. and yet we've yet to see that. and today he is the primary being. >> it's interesting that you -- go ahead. >> i would argue that at the cnn town hall, he really knocked it out of the ball park on the economy as well as abortion.

those are two areas he sounded more strong than most people expected. what i would say is don't count out trump's ability to shoot himself in the foot. but also at the same time, look at this field. who's going to be able to really attack him? >> yep. and the attack from desantis that originates this is that trump would be a lame duck if he were elected, that he couldn't run for re-election in 2028. i've got to wonder how many voters are really that strategic. i mean, that seems like it's a play for a group of very long-term oriented activists. and i wonder how many people that really represents. >> i think desantis has two real lines of attack that could have some resonance. one, why didn't you do it the first time, right? like, trump's out there saying, you only need six months. why didn't you do it in four years then? the second is the electability argument, right? desantis is one of the few republicans who after the 2022 midterms actually has something that he can point to on electability with his pretty big

win in florida for re-election. while contrasting that with trump losing three straight -- or republicans losing three straight elections with trump as their standard bearer. the problem that desantis is going to be facing, though, is that there is still a really strong emotional connection between donald trump and his base of supporters. it is hard to overcome emotion with reason. those might be the two arguments that start to chip away at it a little bit, but it's still going to be a steep climb. >> hard to overcome emotion with reason, and certainly maybe harder to overcome emotion with policy, which is how ron desantis is trying to run. everyone stand by for me. coming up next, a minor scare tonight, after president biden tripped and fell at the air force academy commencement today. what the white house is saying about what, and how the images play into concerns that exist about his age.

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if there are any late night comedy shows live on the air tonight, you can be sure that this moment would be getting quite a lot of attention. the white house tells us that president joe biden is perfectly fine after this fall earlier today. he did trip on that sandbag that you see there, and he fell, as he completed handing out the diplomas at the air force academy in colorado springs. and he even joked about it on his return to the white house. >> i got sandbagged!

>> okay. got a little pep in his step there. but the video often outlives the context for these kinds of things. after all, this moment earlier in his administration was played for plenty of laughs. now, people do fall. that happens. especially those who are on the move and the camera is on all the time. just ask barack obama, who had a few stumbles of his own. and so did ronald reagan back in the 1980s. gerald ford's epic spill while visiting austria in 1975 was so memorable that chevy chase turned it into a career. it was a hallmark of his "saturday night live" skit. but when an 80-year-old president falls when there are already concerns about his age, and while he is asking the nation to re-elect him for a second term, it really is not a laughing matter ultimately. everyone remains here at the table with me. so, this is obviously a touchy subject for a lot of people.

but it must be had. >> i don't think it's ageist to be concerned. we are always one fall away from president harris. and i think republicans are salivating at the mouth for that because they know that president harris means we get a republican in the white house next time. i think here we sit in this unique moment in time where we have to ask ourselves, are we a jer tock si? i think we are. but that's not what we're discussing here. what we need is for democrats to really meet the moment. and the moment required for democrats to say to their voters as well to independent voters, let's look past this moment of age and frailty, fragility, whatever we want to call it. i myself am a big fan of the american presidency, and i did not think in all this time that i would have a former president, trump, where every day i would be questioning his cognitive abilities to be commander in chief. and now with president biden, every day i'm questioning his physical abilities to be commander in chief. >> glad you brought up trump because they're not too far

apart in age. we're talking about two elderly candidates for the presidency. here's trump talking about biden's fall. it's kind of interesting. >> he's at the air force academy. he actually fell down? well, i hope he wasn't hurt. i hope he wasn't hurt. but the whole thing is -- look, the whole thing is crazy. you've got to be careful about that. you've got to be careful about that because you don't want that. even if you have to tiptoe down a ramp. >> he is speaking from experience. i mean, it might sound like he's joking, but he's actually serious because he literally tiptoed down a ramp at -- i believe this was west point -- late in his presidency. and it got a lot of attention. a lot of republican sources texting me old articles about trump's physical fitness back in those days. but this is a concern not just for biden but for trump too. >> absolutely. it is risky. it is just common sense.

but it is risky if the country decides in 2024 it wants to elect a president born in 1942, like biden, somebody born in 1946, like donald trump. it was an issue for bob dole, it was an issue for john mccain, and it was rightly an issue for both of them. and it's rightly an issue now too. >> what do they do about it? >> well, they should do about it? >> what do democrats do about it? >> they do what the president has been signaling his response is going to be, which is, watch me do my job. if you watch me do my job, you'll see i have what it takes. this is not a referendum on his age. there will be no line on the ballot that says, do you believe joe biden is too old to be president. no. what's going to be on the ballot is joe biden and another name. he's got to show that he is better at the job than that other name. right now, the most likely person to be that other name is donald trump. you want to know, is joe biden fit to be president? look at what he just did on the

debt ceiling to prevent the united states and the global economy from going over a cliff with minimal damage to his set of priorities. he got almost everything he wanted in that. the other guys, the top two guys on the other side, both say, we would rather have had a default. you tell me who has the more -- who is more fit to be president in that sense. if joe biden is out there making that case on a daily basis against either of those two other guys, i think people are going to forget that he tripped over a sandbag once because he's doing the job. >> you know, there is the stamina issue. but i know a lot of people watching are probably -- some people who are fans of president biden might say, oh, we're just making a big political thing out of this. but i actually want to play -- this is dr. jonathan reiner talking about why this is actually just from a practical perspective a very serious issue for the president. >> talk to people every week the

president's age about safety, about putting grab bars in their bathrooms and making sure area rugs are secure because falls can really create major health injury for a person the president's age, particularly if you were to break his hip. look, i would suggest to the president that he really needs to be careful. and on unsteady ground, it wouldn't be the worse thing for the president to use a cane. i know he might not like the optics, but falling appears much worse. >> maybe not a cane -- >> he will not have a cane. >> but on a very practical -- you know, there are probably some things his staff can do, the advanced staff can do to make things safer. >> make sure there's no sandbag on the stage. >> there's a real safety issue here. >> there's a real safety issue, but there's also a real opportunity as well. i'm not quite sure if the president is able to take advantage of the opportunity, but it's there, because we are an aging society. all the metrics show that we're

going to get older and older. we're living younger and younger. what does this mean? we're going to change the way we're thinking about aging in general anyway. i was talking to a buddy of mine that reminded me "the golden girls" were in their # 50s. they looked great, but they were the golden girls. the idea of someone in their 50s being in their golden years is laughable. i'm not sure president biden is in a position to do that obviously, but that's the conversation we ultimately need to have, how we look at the eld letter i. because we're all going to get there. by the way, most of the country is going to be there within the next 50 years. >> older people are the ones most aware of some of the limitations and changes that happen as you get older, in addition to wisdom you can sometimes gain. but i think you're going to find this issue, it's not just a matter of young people versus older people. older people are going to wonder too, does it make sense for him to have this job? >> you've heard the president saying, watch me.

watch me do my job, and that will be proof i can do it in the future. thank you all very much. coming up next for us, president trump -- donald trump questioned directly by cnn today on that tape that the feds have of him talking about a classified document in his possession. plus his lawyer didn't want to answer our questions last night about that very subject. >> i'm not going to address that. i'm not going to dignify the doj leak. >> but there was something he did keep saying that we plan to fact check coming up next. >> do you think you have the votes to be elected speaker tonight? >> yes. >> you do? >> and you'll be able to flip rosendale and crane. >> i'll have the votes. >> how do you know you'll have the votes? >> because i count. >> there you have it.

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former president donald trump ignoring questions about the cnn reporting that he is on tape acknowledging that he had a classified pentagon document after he left the white house. >> mr. president, why didn't you take classified documents? >> now, that refusal to answer might be familiar to you if you were watching his attorney, jim tr

trusty, on this show last night. >> i'm not going to bite on a leak campaign and try the case in the media. i'm not going to address the document. >> trusty refused to discuss quite a lot, like whether the former president took any sensitive military documents, what evidence they may have that the documents in question were ever declassified, or how it got to his club in bedminster, new jersey, in the first place. but he did keep going back to this point. >> the president, under the presidential records act, has unfettered authority to do what he wants with documents that he's taken from the white house while president. >> while president. that phrase. now, keep in mind that donald trump wasn't president in july of 2021. that's when our sources say he was recorded discussing a classified document that was in his position. and in fact, that was more than a month after the national archives reached out to him to tell him that he had documents

that needed to be returned. on the question of the larger claim that trusty was making, that as president, donald trump had, quote, unfettered authority, the point of the very law he's talking about, the presidential records act, is about setting hard, defined rules about the handling of these documents. to quote the national archives, the pra, the presidential records act, changed legal ownership of the official records of the president from private to public, and it established a new statutory structure under which presidents and subsequently nara must manage the records of their administration. in fact, if you read the law, this is the section, 2203. it has all the rules about how records are supposed to be handled. and the very real limits on what the president can and cannot do. trusty went on to say this last night. >> and so, if he wants to declassify them, if he wants to personalize them under the presidential record act, that is his right.

>> so, this is what we need to clarify. those are two separate powers, the power to declassify and personalize, the power to personalize. and more than that, more than once in the interview last night, trusty actually conflated those two ideas. >> what i am asking you is, when it comes to your client, you will not say what he has said, which is that he blanket declassified all of those documents? did he do that? >> yes. >> well, then, just to be clear, you're making the argument right now that by the time he was on the ground in florida, after he left washington, that that is when he declassified all of these documents that he took with him? >> no, no, no. i'm saying the documents he brought with him are effectively declassified and personalized under the presidential record act. >> the presidential records act doesn't have anything to do with the declassification process. whether records are classified or not, by law they are considered property of the

united states government. however, what the president records act does do is define what is public and what can be private. there is this long section that clearly defines what is considered presidential, and that is public, and what is considered personal. and in short, personal would be only, quote, documentary materials which do not relate to or have an effect on the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the president. so, we will have to see how they make that argument in court that the president -- the pentagon plans do not relate to the carrying out of the duties of the commander in chief. but at least publicly, the former president and his defense team, they seem to be very fixated on this 1978 law. >> the presidential records act. >> you look at the constitution, you look at the presidential records act. >> i come under what's known as

the presidential records act. >> they talk about it a lot. and it actually does cut to the very heart of the story, specifically, why did former president trump keep these documents in the first place? here's the law again. it says the presidential records of a former president shall be available to such former president. in other words, if he wanted to see something, if he wanted to have access to it, all he had to do was ask. and the other part of this story is the danger of having pentagon battle plans just out there. remember, the director of national intelligence launched a full damage assessment to figure out the risk posed by what donald trump took with him. so, let's bring in the former director of national intelligence, james clapper. director clapper, thank you for joining us. when you look back at the mar-a-lago affidavit, we heard at that time that there were, you know, top secret tsti,

sensitive compartmentalized documents, that could be in this trove that trump took with him. when you pair that with what we've learned about this particular document, what concerns you? >> well, i mean, when the -- when we first learned of the presence of the classified documents at mar-a-lago, all we really had to go on were the classification caveats or descriptions. and i said several times at the time that we needed to be cautious here because we didn't know the substantive content of these documents. well, now we currently know, if the media reporting is correct, the content of one of them, which is quite sensitive. so, this is kind of worse fears realized. when you look at the sensitive of such a document. don't know the province of it, you know, what day it was or anything like that. but it bore on the subject of

the potential attack of some sort against, an invasion against iran, well that's really a serious, serious revelation. and it will serve to heighten the p paranoia that already exis in iran and give them the justification for pursuing nuclear weapons. >> what are the national security implications of plans like this, if they have to do an attack on iran being out there in the world? >> it's obviously a serious compromise. i mean, potentially you're putting people's lives at risk here. if not within iran, certainly any u.s. military forces are engaged in any kind of activity having to do with iran. so, the implications are quite serious. and this is one document. it makes you wonder, what are the substantive content of the other documents that were found at mar-a-lago?

and how sensitive are they? and what are the implications for them that they might bear on our national security and its potential compromise? >> today we heard an interesting argument from another attorney who used to be very recently part of trump's defense team. this is tim parlatore talking about whether or not this document could be considered to have posed a risk to national defense. listen. >> if it is a plan -- i mean, a lot of it depends on if it exists, how detailed is it. is it a fairly rudimentary proposal from mark milley to the president that was outright rejected? does it give very detailed plans? if it's something that happened, you know, a few years ago and it's outdated, so really it's one of those things that in the legal sense it goes to the jury where they have to look at the document and they have to make a determination as to whether it's national defense information.

>> does that hold water for you, that argument? >> not really. i think there would need to be -- i would put a lot more stock in a formal assessment by the intelligence community or other competent executive branch officials to actually make a determination just how serious a revelation this document represents. >> so, what if it -- i mean, what if, to his point, what if it was an old document? what if it was just a briefing rather than specific plans? would that make a difference to you? >> obviously it doesn't sound like it was. an operations plan is a very elaborate document with a lot of attachments in it. it doesn't sound like it was that. but the point here is if it reflected intent, a policy, statement or some sort of implication of a policy statement on the part of the government, then that in itself is pretty serious and has

implications, as i mentioned before, not the least of which is the impact on iran itself. so, again, not knowing the providence, the content, but just from what is inferred, this is pretty serious, i think. >> all right, james clapper, thank you very much for that insight. and ahead for us, a gun store owner decides to stop selling guns due to the spike in mass shootings. he's afraid that the weapons that he has sold already could end up in the wrong hands. and you're about to hear from him coming up next. when you have chronic kidney disease. there are places you'd like to be. like he. and here. and here. not so much here.

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recent mass shootings and other incidents of gun violence in the united states have prompted one gun shop owner near atlanta to close his business. john waldman has children of his own, and he says that he now worrys that the firearms that he was selling at georgia ballistics could be part of the next tragedy. and his conscience won't let him do it anymore. he joins me now. thank you very much for joining us. you opened the store not too long ago, back in 2021. what was the catalyst in your mind for this decision? >> the original catalyst was that not only did i want to help people get arms to defend

themselves against what's coming in. but after covid and one of the lockdowns, this was one of the stores that allowed me to be a necessity in helping people. is, it was from that point where i really just wanted to help police and local authorities because they were so busy getting defunded that nobody was rewarding them for defending people. >> and what changed? what made you decide now to go ahead and close the store? >> just all the -- it's really the kids. my son keeps seeing it. my son's going through mass shooting tragedies at school. he's going through all the trainingment it's nothing like that when i went to school. and it's sad that he has to live like that. but at the same time, it's also my responsibility because i sell higher end items that could be used like that, and i don't ever want to sell something like that could be used against my kid, let alone somebody else's. >> and you're right, statistics do bear this out. firearm deaths are the leading

cause of death for children. but at the same time, since 2014, mass shootings in the united states have doubled in this country. this has been going on for nearly a decade now, and longer than that if you look further at the statistics. so, before this moment, did you think gun violence was an important enough issue for you to want to make a statement like this prior to this moment? >> i wasn't really in the industry before. i wasn't -- i wasn't at the dinner table so to speak, for what's going on. and now i am. and when you see everything, it just -- it just -- everything adds up. and with the shooting in tennessee and then one in -- another one at the medical center, it really isn't going to stop. but at the same time, it's my responsibility to just not participate in what could happen.

>> what is your biggest fear as a gun shop owner? >> my biggest fear is that something gets sold to a law-abiding citizen, it's left in the car, gets stolen and used in a horrific event. and then that's everything that i sell has my fingerprints and my name on it. and i don't want anything that i sell to be used. and the things that i've learned from doing a gun store just keep stacking, just keep stacking against doing it. and i'm not saying anyone else should. but it's one of those things where it's my decision and my decision is this. >> i see that you're sitting in your shop. my understanding is that it's already closed. but you do have a lot of weapons there behind you. what happens to those weapons now? >> yeah. i tried working with every town. i sent them messages about closing and seeing if there's a way to get them so i don't have to sell them because i don't want to. and i'm just waiting to hear

back. it's been about two months. >> you live the in a state now in georgia where, you know, the gun laws are a little bit more lax there than other places. do you think that there is anything that can be done beyond your personal decision to make an impact on what you're concerned about here, which is that these weapons could be used in horrific killings potentially against children? >> well, the problem is that nobody wants to sit down and have the conversation. there's always sides, this side and that side. and we're all in this together. and it's just one of those things where if you just sit down and talk, there's no reason it can't work itself out. but at the same time, my son is going through mass shooting trainings at school, and they're actually teaching potential shooters where all the kids are going to be hiding. so, there's problems like that too that hit me. and also i have to do this. >> did you at some point recently -- i mean, did you have

an order from a customer that disturbed you in any way? >> there was a saw that was ordered. it was a 240 saw. >> and can you tell us what that is? >> it's a belt-fed 16-inch military rifle that's civilian issue, which isn't a problem. i mean, there's a lot of people that like those, that use them. it's for defense. but at the same time, if somebody breaks in your house and they're not stored properly, if somebody has something in the car, then they're taken and then they're used. and being a gun store owner, when you are one, every time there's a gun store that's broken into, you get an email. and i get three emails a month. and it's just another one of those things that go in that even in storage here could be pilfered. and then something that i've done is taking away children

from other families. >> that weapon that you're talking about is a civilian version of a military automatic weapon, right? >> of a military, yes. yes. the military have one that are full-auto. there's a selector on it. these are civilian issue. >> did you sell it? >> but it's still -- the only difference -- yeah, unfortunately. >> so, that gun now is in the hands of a gun owner? >> yes. and that was the other part where i was just, like, at what point -- because i only sold high-end items. i wasn't doing the stuff normal gun stores do. i was doing it more for professionals. it's one of those things where if these fall into the hands, it's not just an ar-15. there's other items that make them look like a tonka truck. >> john waldman, thank you very much for sharing that perspective with us.

>> no, thank you for having me. and i greatly appreciate it. thank you. and stay tuned now for a dose of inspiration. the new list of "forbes" most wealthy women is out. and it's been a record-setting year for those women. who nabbed the top spots in 2023? we will tell you next. lila: before i was diagnosed, there was nothing really to worry about. and then when i was diagnosed, there was just such a big weight put on my shoulders.

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start today at godaddy.com tonight, the moment you've been waiting for, forbes' list of america's richest self-made women is in and includes, you guessed it, oprah winfrey, topping, net worth of $2.5 billion but there are also billionaires like rihanna and kim kardashian and mu multimillionaires, taylor swift and kylie jenner. so those names may not be surprising but it's worth remembering how they built their fame and fortune and the historic records that they shattered along the way. taylor swift sold more than 2 million tickets to her eras tour and that infamously led up to the ticketmaster crash. meanwhile, rihanna performed one of the most watched super bowl

halftime shows in history and at the age of 25 there is social media star kylie jenner who is the youngest self-made woman on the list of the top 100. that's the title she's held for the past five years. now, cnn's alisyn camerota is joining me now. i know there's a little controversy about kylie and what exactly self-made means. however -- >> i'm glad you brought it up. she's had a few hands up, i would say. >> i'm with you on that, honestly. i mean, when i think of self-made, i mean i think oprah really fits that bill. she came from basically nothing. she inherited nothing. she was not wealthy and she's worth$.5 billion. >> exactly. so does dolly parton. dolly parton is on that list. she's number ten. i mean, you know, obviously from abject poverty and started working at 10 years old. the command national is they're all incredibly talented and incredibly hard working. but which one of these is not

like the other? i don't know. i can't speak to kylie jenner's secret sauce. she's obviously see -- >> i think that's a stretch in the definition. it is interesting how young some of these people are and also i was fascinated by when you look at the artist, like, rihanna even compared to a beyonce. beyonce is worth according to this list $540 million. she is maybe arguably one of the most famous people on the man net. she's on this massive tour now but the thing that makes rihanna so wealthy is not the music, it's the merchandise, makeup and clothing line so the artists who branch into secret else, they've really been able to, you know, exponentially increase their wealth and that's amazing. >> that's what we need, a side hustle. that's what i'm hearing you say. we need a side hustle. >> clothing or jewelry. >> jewelry, makeup. obviously we've cornered the

corner of fuchsia things, items but it's obvious that our sheer talent, which is abundant, is not going to get us to this level. we need some merch. >> even though we're in our barbie era, that may not be enough for us. so, the other thing that i couldn't help but notice is, i mean these women are wealthy and actually i want to show the audience here, the list of the most wealthy women includes some names you don't really know, but they're not really as wealthy as the men. i mean look at the men on this list. i mean elon musk, $200 billion, jeff bezos, $143 billion. the wealthiest self-made women on the list, diane hendricks, $15 billion. judy love, $10 billion. i mean, we're talking about a lot of money here, but it is amazing to me, i mean, what a huge delta there is between the

women and the men on these lists. >> well, women are catching up. i would say. and i think these women are impressive. i was struck by the list of self-made women because, number one, it's in roofing and building supplies. that's fascinating because i think we do tend to overindex for the celebrities and the famous, but you don't have to be rihanna. this is what we need to teach our kids. you can be a roofer, girls. that is what we need to start telling our kids. >> i have this pet theory that if you just make a thing that everybody uses every day like toilet seat covers, you will be extremely wealthy because everybody needs to have it and that's actually -- some of these -- a truck store convenience store, health care software, i mean, these women are doing really well doing, you know -- they're not celebrities but doing well and climbing up on that list, and it's been as we said a banner year for these women. so hat's off to them. >> agreed.

if you have a model for a toilet seat cover thaad's like to show me i'm happy to partner with you on that because clearly we do need to be doing something extra. >> "shark tank," here we come. everyone, stay tuned. cnn tonight with alisyn camerota is starting at the top of the hour. don't miss it. coming up next for us a family feud contestant is joking about actually regretting his marriage but now he is going to prison for killing his wife. and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risksk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...whichch if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com

well, you know the saying there's a grain of truth in every joke? >> biggest mistake you made at your wedding. >> honey, i love you, but said "i do." [ laughter ] not my mistake. not my mistake. i love my wife. >> well, that man was just convicted this week of first