this is "gps", the "global public square" welcome to you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you from new york. today on the program, i have

an exclusive interview with president biden's national security adviser jake sullivan. we talk about russia's war in ukraine. threats from china, and america's role in a new world. and it is "gps's" birthday. this year we mark 15 years of the "global public square." it is astonishing how much has happened in a decade and a half. and we will bring you the highlights. but first, here is my take. as i was following turkey's recent general election, i was stunned to hear one of the country's top officials then interior minister speaking to a crowd from a balcony jubilant,

he promised that erdogan would wipe away whoever caused truoube for turkey and that includes the american military. and he declared that those who pursue a proamerican approach will be considered traitors. keep in mind turkey has been a member of nato with american military bases in the country for about 70 years. turkish president erdoganoch used anti-western rhetoric himself before the elections first round, erdogan tweeted that his opponent won't say what he promised to the baby killing terrorists or to the western countries. erdogan may be one of the most extreme representatives of this attitude but he is not alone. as many commentators have noted, most of the world's population is not aligned with the west in its struggle against putin's invasion of ukraine. and the ukraine war itself has

only highlighted a broader phenomenon. many of the world's largest and most powerful countries in the developing world are growing increasingly anti-western and anti-american. when brazil elected lula desilva, many had a sigh of relief that the jair bolsonaro has been replaced by a left of center figure. yet lullu has criticized the west, raised again the dollar and claims that russia and ukraine are equally to blame for the war. this week he hosted venezuela president maduro whose brutal reign has led many to leave his country. he lavished praise on the dictator and criticized washington for imposing sanctions on him.

south africa president was a business friendly moderate who had strongfy ties with the west but they have ventured in the russia and chinese orbit. they have refused to condemn the russian invasion of ukraine and has hosted the russian and chinese navies for joint exercises and now stands accused by the united states of supplying arms to russia, allegations that south africa has denied. and then there is india, which has made clear that had no intention of going against russia. indian statements about her desire to maintain a balance between the west and russia and even china have been so numerous, that one of the most resp respected scholars warned washington not to assume that new delhi would side with it in any future crisis with beijing. what is going on?

why is the united states having so much trouble with so many of the world's largest developing nations? these attitudes are rooted in a phenomenon that i described in 2008 as the rise of the rest. over the last two decades, a huge shift in the international systems that taken place. countries that were once populous but poor have moved from the margins to center stage. once compromising a negligible share of the global economy, the so-called emerging markets now make up fully half of it. it would be fair to say they have emerged. as these countries have begun economically strong and politically stable and culturally proud, they have become more nationalist and their nationalism is often defined in opposition to those countries that dominate the international system. meaning the west. many of these nations were once colonized by western nations and

so they retain a aversion to a western coral into an alliance or grouping. reflecting on this phenomenon in the context of ukraine war, russian expect fiona hill said the other factor in this distrust is these countries don't believe the united states when they hear it speak in favor of a rules-based international order. they see washington, said hill, as full of hubris and hypocrisy. america applies rules to others but violates them itself in the many military interventions and unilateral sanctions and opened up to open up to trade and commerce and violating those principals when it chooses. this is the new world. it is not characterized by the decline of america, but rather the rise of everyone else as i wrote in 2008. vast parts of the globe that were once pawns on the chess

board are now players and intend to chart their own often proudly self-interested course. they will not be easily cowed or cajoles. they have to be persuaded with policies that are practiced at home and not just preached abroad. navigating this international arena is the great challenge of american diplomacy today. is washington up to the task? go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my washington post column this week. and let's get started. ♪ i want to get straight to my interview with jake sullivan. the national security adviser to president joe biden. we sat down on friday at the eisenhower executive office building right next door to the white house. jake sullivan, pleasure to have you have on.

>> thanks for having me. >> tell me, what do you think about this problem that by some accounts 60%, 70% of the world's population is not part of the group of nations aligned with ukraine against russia, is not participating in the sanctions. it feels like it created a practical problem which is a large part of the world economy where russia could swim freely but also a problem of legitimacy. how do you see the situation and what is your strategy? >> well, first, i would say that the united states' relationship with those countries is not just about ukraine. it is about the full range of issues that we're working on together including solving climate change, future economic growth. and so take india for example, it is true they haven't joined the sanctions. at the same time prime minister modi will be coming to washington for a state visit and the u.s./india partnership has never been stronger across

technology, defense cooperation, and in important terms the ties between our two peoples, the two democracies. so as far as i'm concerned, the big thing the united states needs to do is not have a debate with each of these countries about ukraine, but rather meet them where they are in terms of what they're trying to accomplish. and that is to deliver for their citizens, to build infrastructure for clean energy transition, to deal with major debt challenges coming out of covid, and president biden has an affirmative agenda to do all of those things. when he was at the g7 hiroshima, he was joined there by other developing countries and they had a robust discussion about ukraine but they talked about the broader range of issues where i think the united states is not on the front foot in terms of trying to deliver global public goods that help the lives among the 60% to 70% of the world's population. >> when you hear the turkish minister of the interior say the

kind of fairly strong anti-american things he said, when you see that turkey is buying russian defense systems, i mean this is a member of nato. is -- is turkey fundamentally reassessing its pro-western foreign policy? >> well first of all, we all know politics. turkey is a democracy. they just had a presidential election. and strong rhetoric, including anti-american rhetoric has been a feature of turkish presidential elections for as long as i could remember. so i don't think we should over-weight that particular comment. and then when it comes to ukraine, think about what else turkey is doing. they're providing material assistance to ukraine. they are engaging in every level with ukrainian ms and they're voting at the united nations general assembly on behalf of ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. so like always, the picture is

more complicated than the idea that turkey has moved into some other column. their charting a independent foreign policy but one in which we could have a relationship with them in the defense space, where erdogan request is for the u.s. to provide f-16 planes which president biden said he would like to do. so the president just spoke with president erdogan a couple of days ago to congratulate him on his election and looks forward to working with turkey as a strong nato ally and the same set of global issues we were just talking about a moment ago. >> when i that you can to leaders in many of the countries and european countries and canada, one of the things that keeps coming up is american protectionism, nationalism, or cantalism, that the united states is now just looking out for itself and why shouldn't these countries do the same? >> well first of all, the united states is some of the lowest barriers to access to our market

of any country in the world. much lower than the set of countries you were describing in your opening statement. we're looking to enhance the ability of many countries to invest in the united states, to join clean resilient supply chains as we make this -- deal with this climate crisis. and we're looking to deliver for them on their needs. as i said before, the two biggest things that we hear from emerging economies are, one, mobilized public investment, threw the world bank, the imf and directly from the united states for our infrastructure, our digital infrastructure, our physical infrastructure, our energy infrastructure, and we are doing that at scale. and second, help us deal with our debt burden. make sure that we are able to get out from under the kind of debt that is holding down our ability to deliver for our people. and the united states is in the lead in trying to provide debt

relief to emerging economies. and you put those things together and the story we could tell about a positive sum approach from the united states, that we're actively trying to look out not just for the needs of the american people, though the president is focused on that, but for the needs of people everywhere because we're all in this together. that is at the heart of how joe biden looks at his presidency and it is the approach that he's taken and we've begun to put points on the board. >> next on "gps", we'll dig deeper on the war in ukraine. can it win and can it win back all of the territory from russia? jame sullivan's thoughts when we come back. >> annnnouncer: fareed zakarari "gps", brought to you by -- our client's portfolios for their long-term goals. (other money manager) but you still sell investments our client's portfolios for that generate high commissions for you, right? (fisher investments) , we don't sell commission products.

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days since the invasion. they are fighting for their live but many wonder whether kyiv's western backers will get war fatigue. jake sullivan oversees american's war in ukraine. more now on my interview with him. >> jake, when you think about the ukraine counter offensive, what are you looking for to see that, in fact, the massive investments that the united states has made in helping ukraine are paying off? >> well, first, this is not an exam. we're not grading ukraine's counter offensive and saying did you well based on what you did or you did poorly. we want to support ukraine to make as much progress as possible on the battlefield so it is in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table. and we do believe that this counter offensive will allow ukraine to take strategically significant territory back from russia, areas occupied by russia that are rightfully sovereign

ukrainian territory. exactly how many in what places, that is up to developments on the ground as the ukrainians get this counter offensive underway but we believe that the ukrainians will meet with success in this counter offensive and we'll continue to support them against russia's ongoing aggression. >> but as you imply in your answer, the success you hope will get translated into a strong negotiating position. so you do expect maybe by the end of the year there will be negotiations about some kind of armistice or deal of some kind? >> well i'm not going to put a time cable on it. because as you know, war is unpredictable and how developments on the battlefield will have impact. but president zelenskyy has said this war will end through

diplomacy. and as you heard from secretary blinken in a speech he gave this week, the united states believes that any just peace may be based on some foundational principles. one of the principles is rooted in the united nations charter and it is the sovereignty and territorial integrity. and the countries that you described in your opening statement, whether it is india or turkey or indonesia or others, they have all spoken out about the need to protect the principle of sovereignty and brazil has voted for u.n. general assembly resolutions that uphold the territory. other countries have indicated both in public and in private that is the sinai kwon known of a settlement here. and so that is what we're driving for here. >> do you think that china now seeming to want to enter into the russian/ukraine negotiations, sending an envoy,

xi talking to zelenskyy, are these significant moves that suggest that china will put some pressure on russia to back off in some way? >> well, we believe that china should play a constructive role in helping bring about an end to the war in ukraine. and that comes back to that same prince pell i was talking about a minute ago. the principle of sovereignty and territorial integrity. and if you look at the 12 principles they put forward in the peace formula, the first principal was that, was about the fact that borders should not be changed by force. so it is up to china to make its determination as to whether it is going to lean in to support that principle of sovereignty and indicate to russia that it will stand behind an outcome in which ukraine gets its s sovereignty back. i think they're tentative so

far. i think they are still trying to decide how they want to proceed. but we support the prc playing a constructive role in a just peace based on the the principles of the u.n. charter. next on "gps", i'm talk to jake sullivan about the biggest rivalry in the world today. this is the one that could lead to a cold war or even a hot one. all about the u.s. and china when we come back. so c caramel swirl is always there for the taking. are you taking the right multi-vitamimin? with new chapter, you get excellent quality, organic ingredients, and fermentation. fermentation? yes. feel the difference with 20 plus nutrients your body can absorb. so you can do you. learn more at newchapter.com. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nuition. together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. everyone: woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals.

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more now of my interview with president biden's national security adviser jake sullivan. he met last month in vienna with his chinese counterpart, w wong-y-i. it was since the chinese spy balloon incident. the talks were candid and constructive. so where does this most important relationship in the

world go from here? >> jake, henne kissinger, who turns 100 or already turned 100 this year, given an interview in the economist in when he said that he thought that u.s./china relations were in the classic pre-world war i situation when neither side felt they had any political room to make concessions or to make overtures and that the implication was we're sort of stumbling our way into something that could turn into a very serious conflict. do you agree? >> i sat in the room with president biden when he met with president xi in bali last year and that was not my experience. i saw two leaders who are actually trying to reach understanding even if we have different points of view and even if we are in a deply competitive relationship on some of the fundamentals in this dynamic and the desire on both

parts to put a floor under the relationship. to manage the competition responsibly. to ensure that competition does not become conflict. and there are a number of dish elements to that. but one of the key ones is that as we have intense competition, we have also intense diplomacy. so i sat down with wong yi and talked through all of the relationships and we will see american officials engaging with their chinese counterparts to continue that work. and then at some point we'll see president biden and president xi come back together again. so as far as i'm concerned there is nothing inconsistent with competing vigorously in important domainsond economics and technology and ensuring that that competition does not veer into conflict or confrontation. that is the firm conviction of president biden and that is how he will responsibly manage this relationship and we believe there is nothing inevitable about some kind of conflict or

cold war between the u.s. and china. >> so the united states and china did $700 billion of trade with each other in the last year. is it your goal to allow that trade to expand and for the both sides to participate in a kind of a growing pie, or do you think that there needs to be more decoupling, that those numbers need to stay stagnant or maybe even go down? >> well at the g7 hiroshima, the major western democracies came together around a simple formula. we're for de-risking, not for decoupling. we're not looking to decouple our economy with china and end trade with united states and china. but we are looking to derisk. it means three things. we need secure supply chains in critical goods like clean energy technologies and semiconductors so that we're not reliant on any one country.

second, it means that we need to protect our most advanced technologies especially those with military applications so the tuechnologies could not be used to harm our security and third it means we need to invest in the sources of our own industrial capacity here at home so that we have the ability to grow and produce some of the critical goods that we're going to need to rely on in the years ahead, whether that is in the field of technology or health or clean energy and that is what we intend to do. not to decouple. >> the most dangerous spot in the world perhaps is taiwan right now. and there is some contradiction into the administration's strategy. you say that policy is unchanged and believe in the one china policy and the shanghai and the various declarations and president biden has four times now said unequivocally, the united states will come to

taiwan's assistance if there is a chinese attack on it. what -- is president biden trying to alter the policy of strategic ambiguity about what the united states would do in this circumstance and be very clear about it and if that is the case, is that not a change in policy? >> so president biden has answered this hypothetical question on multiple occasions as you say. and he's also on multiple occasions in the very same breath said that our policy toward cross strait relations has not changed. it is rooted in the one china policy an the taiwan relations act and that is the fundamental foundation of our policy. he said that to xi jinping and -- >> [ inaudible ]. >> well first of all, the policy of the united states is built on a series of internal tensions.

if you begin to unpack it, it is about dealing in a world of internal tension within the policy and trying to manage those tensions effectively to ensure peace and stability across the taiwan strait. that is not a model of clarity. that is not a biden administration issue, that is the moment from the shanghai communique. but what it lacks in clarity, the one china policy has succeeded in actually achieving the practical objective of decades of peace and stability across the taiwan strait. that is why our policy hasn't changed. that is why we believe the one china policy should continue to ensure there are no changes to the status quo from other side and that we maintain and that peace and stability across the taiwan strait. >> and so if they take a step toward independence, you do not support that. >> we do not support taiwan

independence. we support an effort to ensure that there are not unilateral changes to the status quo. by taiwan or by the prc. and i was equally clear with wong yi that some of the actions china has been taken, in terms of the aggressive posture toward taiwan are themselves challenging that status quo in ways that undermine peace and stability. what we're looking for is the continuation of that basic stable cross strait dynamic that as allowed both the prc and taiwan and the people of those two territories to do well and for the rest of the world not have to deal with a conflict that would end up cratering the global economy. >> jake sullivan, always a pleasure to have you on. >> thanks for having me. and we will be back. but at the end of the day, you know you have a team behind you that can help you.

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of the general assembly in the new york, they formally adopted 17 sustainable development goals. these were no modest proposals, ending world hunger and ensuring the health and well being of every global citizen. they're worthy goals but we're way behind on achieving them. my next guest has written a book with some very good ideas on how to actually tackle the most pressing of these problems. bjorn lomborg heads the think tank the copenhagen consensus center and hi book is called "best things first." >> it is great to have you on. >> it is good to be here. >> and the good news is there is a lot of low hanging fruit, a lot of stuff that you could spend a certain amount of money that would not be difficult for countries and aclehieve achieve >> absolutely. we could spend $35 billion. that is not nothing, neither you

or i have that, but in the not global scheme of things that is couch change. $35 billion a year. and you could save 4.2 million lives each and every year and make the poor half the world $1.1 t $1.1 trillion richer each and every year. that is almost $1 per person per day in the entire lower half the world. >> and so explain what is the biggest bang for the buck you could get? >> let me give you one example for maternal and newborn health, one thing that surprised me is a lot of moms die in child birth. about 300,000 moms die each and every year and 2.3 million kids die in the first 28 days on the planet. if we invested about $5 billion per year in basic you need to get women into a facility, to give birth, and you need to have basic obstetric care there.

if you have that, you could save 166,000 moms each year. you could save 1.2 million kids. overall every dollar delivers $87 of benefit for the world. that is an amazing investment. >> what about education? >> everybody agrees we should have great education and it is the key. we estimate that if countries would have the same educational achievement as great britain for instance, they would be 30%, 40% richer. the problem is that we've now gotten all kid news schools. but they're not learning. so there is almost half a billion kids in the lower half, poor half of the world and they're almost all in primary school but they're not learning. real problem is when you're in school, we put all of the 12-year-olds in one grade and 13-year-olds in one grade and so on. but these 12-year-olds are wildly different. what we need is to have a way to teach each one at their level. one teacher can't do that.

but what could do this and this is one of the solutions, is you put them in front of a tablet, one hour a day and that has educational software and it costs money but it could teach that kid at her or his exact level. >> and this is been tried and proven? >> this is been trialed and proven in a lot of different trials. he estimate spend $30 because this tablet will be shared with at least seven other kids ore the day and over the year it will cost about $30 per kid per year. and it simply leaves the world much better off. we estimate for every dollar spent you will do $65 of social good. fantastic. >> now you do have a couple of very traditional issues like a lot of people die of tuberculosis, still. what could we do about that? >> it used to be the world's biggest killer. it killed a billion people. every fourth person in the 1800s, died from tuberculosis.

but we fixed it. we know how to deal with it. so we don't think about it any more. but last year in 2022 it killed more people than covid. so it is one of those things that hit a lot of poor people. but most people in the rich world don't care. it is simple, you need treatment but it is hard to do because you need treatment for half a year. you need to take the pills for a full half year. you need to have help remember to do that. because if they don't, they'll revert and have drug resistant tuberculosis. we know there are about $5.5 billion a year spent and you could save about a million people every year through 2050. if you spend that amount of money, you do $46 of social good for every dollar spent. >> and how are you going to get countries to do these things? you pointed out, they do have the money, this is not crazy amounts of money by any stretch for them? why do you think they're not doing it and how do you change

that? >> so the reality is, rich countries don't do it because we think about other things. but for poor countries, of course, the rich people in poor countries don't get tuberculosis either. it is migrants, it is in slum neighborhoods and the rich people's kid in poor countries go to good schools. and so in some ways this is the exact same thing, it is people without a voice. but the point is to say if you could show people you could do this so cheaply and so effectively for this little money, us having this conversation is a way to get the message out. but at the end of the day it has to be politicians and normal people who say i want to do something about education in the world. i want to do something about tuberculosis. but now we've given the case this is both cheap and incredibly effective. >> great to have you on. the book is "best things first." this program launches 15 years

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and now for last week. this week marks a special anniversary here at the global public square, 15 years ago, on june 1st, 2008, this program had the world premiere on cnn. >> welcome to the very first edition of "global public square." i'm fareed zakaria. >> it is astonishing how much has hatppened in the decade since. i can't remember an event filled 24 hours since the end of the cold war. donald trump made history on tuesday becoming the most anti-establishment candidate to

win the presidency. >> the revolutions in the arab world continues. >> the coronavirus could have the potential to become a global pandemic. >> two bombs exploded near the end of the boston marathon. >> after many years of ignoring the tide of desperate refugees out of the middle east, the world suddenly sat up and paid attention in dozens of cities protests led by women are rising up against the government. >> the leader of the world's largest nuclear power, publicly threatening to use nuclear weapons. the supreme court's decision on roe v. wade has brought the public's confident into an all-time low for the court. when the show began, bush was president and the lehman brothers were still in business

and the iphone was still on version 1. we've seen wars erupt. and cities fall. there were earthquakes, and oil spills. protests and populous movements. >> we will build a wall. >> tear groups were formed. and terrorists were hunted down. >> osama bin laden, how has it been perceived around the world. >> we saw shootings in sandy hook and las vegas and way too many more to list. there was the stunning insurrection on america's capitol? the economy crashed, grew again.

let's turn now to the outbreak that has the world on edge. and a global pandemic changed the way we lived and work. to help us understand it all, i've been joined by guests from around the globe. who have sat down with an american president on the roof of a hotel in new delhi. and inside of the white house. >> i always tell my daughters, treat people kindly, be useful. use your time well. but remember you're part of the larger sweep of this big story that brings us altogether. >> and had a rare interview with a chinese premier. >> there is a famous photograph of us at tiananmen square. what lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?

>> we explored democracy in america. >> i do think that one of the incredible quotes is something that mus you'lliny said. you pluck the chicken one feather at a time and people don't notice. that is what concerned me. it is not some overt overthrow. >> and around the world. >> and it is not a democracy, it's what kind of democracy israel will have. will it have a liberal or ill liberal democracy? >> and autocrats. >> translator: i wouldn't want to think we're going down to some sort of a cold war and i'm sure no one is interested in that. >> a king. >> i believe that we could come together. >> and a queen. >> islam in and of itself does not subjugate women and hold

them back. >> the future of our children as we go on destroying our environment. we depend on the environment. >> and human rights defenders. >> if we can't as an international community, prevent the crimes, the least we could do is try to punish them. >> i don't think i've ever offered prayers on television but i pray that you will be safe and i hope it with all of my heart. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> giants in their field. there is a line you used that is also in your memoirs, it is also a line martin luther king used in the -- in his great speech. that unearned suffering is redemption. and that -- does that come to you from the bible? from your spiritual background? >> it comes to me from the

bible, from the teaching of jesus. but it also comes from the teaching of dr. king and gandhi. that you come to that point, where you believe in something that is so right and so necessary as you prepare to die for it. >> and those just getting started. >> the climate crisis is the biggest crisis humanitarian has ever faced and if we don't do anything right now, we're screwed. >> we sat down with inventors. >> if you haven't tried hard enough -- >> musicians. >> the great souls kind of right you. ♪ when i move my body, it feels like freedom ♪ >> filmmakers -- >> i'm also very visual.

and i get a lot of ideas from dreams. >> and brilliant actors. >> as nice follows day, as the rolls are in real life change, they will change in drama. >> we travel the world coming to you today from st. petersburg, russia. >> live from london. >> high atop jordan. >> from davos, switzerland. >> i'm fareed zakaria in rome. >> we met extraordinary people from nearly every continent. in close to 750 shows. >> how do we truly respect and value women? >> we can't be afraid of human. >> and diversity is our strength. >> and we better get back to that unified idea or we're going to be in big trouble. >> doctor king said we're the only hope that america will realize the better part of its

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