this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you from new york. today on the program, i have an exclusive interview with president biden's national security adviser jake sullivan. we talk about russia's war in ukraine, threats from china and america's role in a new world: and it is gps' birthday. this week we mark 15 years of the global public square. it's astonishing how much has

happened in a decade and a half. and we will bring you the highlights. first, here is my take. as i was following turkey's recent general election, i was stunned to hear one of the country's top officials, then interior minister solomon sol lou, speaking from a balcony, promised that erdogan would wipe away whoever causes trouble for turkey, and that includes the american military. he declared earlier that those who pursue a pro-american approach will be considered traitors. keep in mind that turkey has been a member of nato with american military bases in the country for about 70 years. turkish president, recep tayyip erdogan, often uses anti-western rhetoric himself.

before the election, he tweeted his opponent won't say what he promised to the baby killing terrorists or to the western countries. erdogan may be one of the most extreme representatives of this attitude, but he is not alone as many commentator haves noted, most of the world's population is not aligned with the west in its struggle against putin's invasion of ukraine. the ukraine war itself has only highlighted a broader phenomenon. many of the world's largest and most powerful countries in the developing world are growing increasingly anti-western and anti-american. when brazil elected da silva to the presidency last october, many breathed a sigh of relief that bolsonaro had been replaced by a traditional but familiar left-of-center figure. yet he's chosen to pointedly

rage against the west and claim russia and ukraine are equally to blame for the war. this week he hosted venezuela's president maduro whose brutal reign has led millions to flir his country. lula criticized washington for denying maduro's legitimacy. south africa's president had a reputation of a business-friendly moderate with strong ties to the west. south africa under him has veered closer to the russian and chinese orbit, refusing to condemn the russian invasion of ukraine, hosted russia and chinese navies for joint exercises and stands accused by the united states of supplying arms to russia, allegations that south africa has denied. and then there is india which has made clear from the start of the ukraine war that it had no intention of siding against

russia which remains the chief supplier of advanced weaponry for the indian military. indian statements about their desire to maintain a balance in their relations between the west and russia and even china have been so numerous that ashley tall lus, one of the most respected scholars on u.s.-india relations wrote an essay warning them not to assume that russia would side with it in any future crisis with beijing. what is going on? why is the united states having so much trouble with so many of the world's largest developing nations? these attitudes are rooted in a phenomenon i described in 2008 as the rise of the rest. over the last two decades, a huge shift in the international system has taken place. countries that were once populous but poor have moved from the margins to center stage. once comprisesing a negligible share of the global economy, the so-called emerging markets now

make up fully half of it. it would be fair to say they have emerged. as these countries have become economically strong, politically stable and culturally proud, they have become more nationalist. and their nationalism is often defined in opposition to those countries that dominate the international system, meaning the west. many of these nations were once colonized by western nations, so they retain an instinctg aversi to western attempts. reflecting in this phenomenon in the context of the ukraine war, a russian expert notes that the other factor in this distrust is these countries don't believe the united states when they hear it speak in favor of a rules-based international order. they see washington, says hill, as full of uberous and hypocrisy. america applies rules to others,

but violates them itself in its many military interventions and unilateral sanctions. it urges country to open up to trade and commerce while choosing to violate those principles when it chooses. this is the new world. it is not characterized by the decline of america, but rather the rise of everyone else as i wrote in 2008. vast parts of the globe that were once pawns on the chess board are now players and intend to chart their own often proudly self-interested course. they will not be easily cowed or cajoled. they have to be persuaded with policies that are practiced at home and not just preached abroad. navigating this international arena is the great challenge of american diplomacy today. is washington up to the task? go to cnn come/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column

this week. and let's get started. i want to get straight to my interview with jake sullivan, the national security adviser to president joe biden. we sat down on friday at the eisenhower executive office building right next door to the white house. jake sullivan, pleasure to have you on. >> thanks for having me. >> tell me, what do you think about this problem that by some accounts 60, 70% of the world's population is not part of the group of nations aligned with ukraine against russia, is not participating in the sanctions. it feels like it creates a practical problem which is there's a large part of the world economy where russia can swim freely, but also a kind of problem of legitimacy. how do you see the situation and what is your strategy?

>> well, first i would say that the united states' relationships with those countries is not just about ukraine. it's about the full range of issues we're working on together including solving maim or problems like climate change, future economic growth. it's true india hasn't joined the sanctions. at the same time prime minister modi will come to washington in a couple weeks for a state visit. the u.s.-india partnership has never been stronger across technology, defense cooperation and in important terms, the ties between our two peoples -- the two democracies. as far as i'm concerned, the big thing the united states needs to do is not have a debate with each of these countries about ukraine, but rather meet them where they are in terms of what they're trying to accomplish. that is to deliver for their citizens, to build infrastructure for clean energy transition, to deal with major debt challenges coming out of covid-19. president biden has an

affirmative agenda to do all those things when he was at the g7 in hiroshima, he was joined by the leaders of the brazil, india, indonesia and other developing countries. they had a robust discussion about ukraine, but they also talked about this broader range of issues where i think the united states is now on the front foot in terms of trying to deliver global public goods that help the lives of people among that 60 to 70% of the world's popu population. >> when you hear the turkish minister of the interior say the kind of fairly strong anti-american things he said, when you see that turkey is buying russian defense systems, this is a member of nato. is turkey fundamentally reassessing its pro-western foreign policy. >> first of all, we all know politics. turkey is a democracy, they just had a presidential election. strong rhetoric, including anti-american rhetoric has been

a feature of turkish presidential elections for as long as i can remember. i don't think we should overweight that particular comment. when it comes to ukraine, think about what else turkey is doing. they're pro id vooing material assistance to ukraine they're engaging at every level with ukrainians in support of their efforts to defend themselves. they're voted at the united nations general assembly on behalf of ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. like always, the picture is more complicated than this idea that turkey has moved into some other column. they're charting an independent foreign policy, but one in which we can have a constructive relationship with them, even in the defense space where president erdogan's major request to president biden is for the u.s. to provide f-16 planes which president biden has said he would like to do. the president just spoke with president erdogan a couple days ago to congratulate him on his election and looks forward to, working with turkey in the years

ahead as an ally as partner. >> when i talk to leaders, officials in many of these countries, and european countries and canada, one of the things that keeps coming up is american protectionism, nationalism or cancelism, the idea that the united states is just looking out for itself and why shouldn't these countries do the same? >> first of all t united states has some of the lowest barriers of access to our market of any country in the world, much lower han the set of countries you were describing in your opening statement. secondly, we're looking to, in fact, enhance the ability of many countries to invest in the united states, to join clean resilient supply chains as we make this transition, clean energy transition and deal with climate crisis. and we're also looking to deliver for them on their needs. as i was saying before, the two biggest things we hear from emerging economies are, one,

mobilize public investment through the world bank, the imf and directly from the united states for our infrastructure, our digital infrastructure, physical infrastructure, energy infrastructure. we're doing that at scale. second, help us deal with our debt burden. make sure that we are able to get out from under the kind of debt that is holding down our ability to deliver for our people, and the united states is in the lead in trying to provide debt relief to emerging economies. you put those things together, and i think the story we can tell about a positive sum approach from the united states, that we are actively trying to look out not just for the needs of the american people, though, of course, the president is focused on that, but for the needs of people everywhere because we're all in this together. that's at the heart of how joe biden looks at is presidency and it's the approach he's taken. we've really begun to put points on the board. next on "gps," we'll dig deeper on the war in ukraine. can ukraine win?

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in the not-too-distant future, ukraine will mark 500 days since russia's invasion. the ukrainians are fighting for their life, but many wonder if and when kyiv's western backers will get war fatigue. jake sullivan oversees american's war in ukraine. more now on my interview with him. >> jake, when you think about the ukraine counteroffensive, what are you looking for to see that, in fact, the massive investments that the united states has made in helping ukraine are paying off? >> well, first, this is not an exam. we're not grading ukraine's

counteroffensive and saying did you well based on what you did or you did poorly. we want to support ukraine to make as much progress as possible on the battlefield so it is in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table. and we do believe that this counteroffensive will allow ukraine to take strategically significant territory back from russia, areas occupied by russia that are rightfully sovereign ukrainian territory. exactly how much and in what places, that will be up to developments on the ground as ukrainians get this counteroffensive under way. but we believe that the ukrainians will meet with success in this counter offensive and we'll continue to support them against russia's ongoing aggression. >> but as you imply in your answer, the success you hope will get translated into a strong negotiating position. so you do expect maybe by the

end of this year there will be negotiations about some kind of armistice or deal of some kind? >> well i'm not going to put a timetable on it. because as you know, war is unpredictable and how developments on the battlefield will have impact. but what i will say is this, president zelenskyy himself has said this war will end ultimately through diplomacy. and as you heard from secretary blinken in a speech he gave this week, the united states believes that any just peace may be based on some foundational principles. one of the principles is rooted in the united nations charter and it is the sovereignty and territorial integrity. by the way, the countries you described in your opening statement, whether it's india or turkey or indonesia or others, they have all spoken out about the need to protect the principle of sovereignty and

territorial integrity. brazil has voted for u.n. general assembly resolutions that uphold the territory. other countries have indicated both in public and in private that that is the cena kwa known of a settlement here and so that is what we're driving for here. >> do you think that china now seeming to want to enter into the russian/ukraine negotiations, sending an envoy, xi talking to zelenskyy, are these significant moves that suggest that china will put some pressure on russia to back off in some way? >> well, we believe that china should play a constructive role in helping bring about an end to the war in ukraine. and that comes back to that same principle i was talking about a minute ago, the principle of sovereignty and territorial integrity. in fact, if you look at the 12 principles they put forward in the peace formula, the first principal was that, was about

the fact that borders should not be changed by force. so it is up to china to make its determination as to whether it is going to lean in to support that principle of sovereignty and indicate to russia that it will stand behind an outcome in which ukraine gets its sovereignty back. whether china does that or not is unclear. they've been tentative so far. i think they're still trying to decide how they want to proceed. but we support the prc playing a constructive role in a just peace based on the the principles of the u.n. charter. next on "gps," i'll talk to jake sullivan about the biggest rivalry in the world today. this is the one that could lead to a cold war or even a hot one. all about the u.s. and china when we come back. you can make it even smarter. now portrts can know where every piece of cargo is. and where it's going. (dock worker) right on time. (vo) robots can predict breakdownwns

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more now of my interview with president biden's national security adviser jake sullivan. he met last month in vienna with his chinese counterpart, wang yi. it was the highest level meeting between officials of the two nations since the chinese spy balloon incident. the white house said the talks were candid and constructive. so where does this most important relationship in the world go from here? >> jake, henry kissinger who turns 100 or has already turned 100 this year, gave an interview in "the economist" in which he said he thought u.s.-china relations were in the classic pre world war i situation when neither side felt they had political room to make concessions or make overtures. the implication was we're sort of stumbling our way into

something that could turn into a very serious conflict. do you agree? >> i sat in the room with president biden when he met with president xi in bali last year and that was not my experience. i saw two leaders who are actually trying to reach understanding even if we have different points of view and even if we are in a deeply competitive relationship on some of the fundamentals in this dynamic and the desire on both parts to put a floor under the relationship, to manage the competition responsibly, to ensure that competition does not become conflict. and there are a number of dish elements to that. but one of the key ones is that as we have intense competition, we have also intense diplomacy. so i sat down for two days with wong yi and talked through all of the relationships and we will see american officials engaging

with their chinese counterparts to continue that work. and then at some point we'll see president biden and president xi come back together again. so as far as i'm concerned there is nothing inconsistent with competing vigorously in important domains on economics and technology and ensuring that that competition does not veer into conflict or confrontation. that is the firm conviction of president biden and that is how he will responsibly manage this relationship and we believe there is nothing inevitable about some kind of conflict or cold war between the u.s. and china. >> so the united states and china did $700 billion of trade with each other in the last year. is it your goal to allow that trade to expand and for the both sides to participate in a kind of a growing pie, or do you think that there needs to be more decoupling, that those numbers need to stay stagnant or maybe even go down?

>> well, at the g7 in hiroshima, the major western democracies came together around a simple formula. we're for de-risking, not for decoupling. we're not looking to decouple our economy from china and end trade with united states and china. but we are looking to derisk. it means three things. we need secure supply chains in critical goods like clean energy technologies and semiconductors so that we're not reliant on any one country. second, it means that we need to protect our most advanced technologies especially those with military applications so those technologies could not be used to harm our security, and third it means we need to invest in the sources of our own industrial capacity here at home so that we have the ability to grow and produce some of the critical goods that we're going to need to rely on in the years ahead, whether that is in the field of technology or health or clean energy and that is what we intend to do. not to decouple.

>> the most dangerous spot in the world perhaps is taiwan right now. and there is some contradiction into the administration's strategy. you say and keep saying the policy is unchanged, you believe in the one china policy, the shanghai communique, all the various declarations after that. president biden has four times now said unequivocally, the united states will come to taiwan's assistance if there is a chinese attack on it. what -- is president biden trying to alter the policy of strategic ambiguity about what the united states would do in this circumstance and be very clear about it, and if that is the case, is that not a change in policy? >> so president biden has answered this hypothetical question on multiple occasions as you say. and he's also on multiple occasions, including in the very

same breath, said our policy toward cross-strait relations has not changed. it is rooted in the one china policy an the taiwan relations act and that is the fundamental foundation of our policy. the president himself has said that, he said it directly to xi jinping. first of all, the policy of the united states is built on a series of internal tensions. the one china policy, if you begin to unpack it, it is about dealing in a world of internal tensiensure peace and across the taiwan strait. this is not a model of, the one china policy. administration issue, that is the moment from the shanghai communique. but what it lacks in clarity, the one china policy has succeeded in actually achieving the practical objective of decades of peace and stability

across the taiwan strait. that is why our policy hasn't changed. that is why we believe the one china policy should continue to ensure there are no changes to the status quo from either side and that we maintain and that peace and stability across the taiwan strait. >> so if the new dpp candidate and takes a step toward independence, you do not support that. >> we do not support taiwan independence. we support an effort to ensure that there are not unilateral changes to the status quo by taiwan or by the prc. and i was equally clear with wang yi that some of the actions china has been taken, in terms of the aggressive posture toward taiwan are themselves challenging that status quo in ways that undermine peace and stability. what we're looking for is the continuation of that basic stable cross-strait dynamic that

as allowed both the prc and taiwan and the people of those two territories to do well and for the rest of the world not have to deal with a conflict that would end up cratering the global economy. >> jake sullivan, always a pleasure to have you on. >> thanks for having me. and we will be back. i heard about the payroll tax refund that allowed us to keep the people that haveve been here taking care of us. learn more at getrefunds.com. i won't let me moderate to severe plaque psoriasis symptoms define me... emerge as you. with tremfya®, most people saw 90% clearer skin at 4 months... ...and the majority stayed clearer, at 5 years. rious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. emerge as you. emerge tremfyant®. ask you doctor about tremfya®.

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bjorn lomborg heads the copenhagen consensus center. his book is called "best things first." bjorn lomborg, pleasure to have you on. >> it is good to be here. >> and the good news is there is a lot of low hanging fruit, a lot of stuff that you could spend a certain amount of money that would not be difficult for countries and achieve a lot. >> absolutely. the bottom line of the book is we could spend $35 billion. that is not nothing, neither you or i have that, but in the not global scheme of things that is couch change. $35 billion a year. and you could save 4.2 million lives each and every year and make the poor half the world $1.1 trillion richer each and every year. that is almost $1 per person per day in the entire poorer half the world. >> and so explain what is the biggest bang for the buck you could get? >> let me give you one example for maternal and newborn health,

one thing that surprised me is a lot of moms die in childbirth. about 300,000 moms die each and every year and 2.3 million kids die in the first 28 days on the planet. if we invested about $5 billion per year in basic -- you need to get women into a facilities to give birth, and you need to have basic obstetric care there. if you have that, you could save 166,000 moms each year. you could save 1.2 million kids. overall every dollar delivers $87 of benefit for the world. that is an amazing investment. >> what about education? >> everybody agrees we should have great education and it is the key. we estimate that if countries would have the same educational achievement as great britain for instance, they would be 30%, 40% richer. the problem is that we've now

gotten all kid into schools but they're not learning. so there is almost half a billion kids in the lower half, poor half of the world and they're almost all in primary school but they're not learning. real problem is when you're in school, we put all of the 12-year-olds in one grade and 13-year-olds in one grade and so on. but these 12-year-olds are wildly different. what we need is to have a way to teach each one at their level. one teacher can't do that. but what can do this and this is one of the solutions, is you put them in front of a tablet, one hour a day and that has educational software and it costs money but it can teach that kid at her or his exact level. >> and this is been tried and proven? >> this has been trialed and proven in a lot of different trials. he estimate spend $30 because this tablet will be shared with at least seven other kids ore the day and over the year it will cost about $30 per kid per

year. and it simply leaves the world much better off. we estimate for every dollar spent you will do $65 of social good. fantastic. >> now, you do have a couple of very traditional issues like a lot of people die of tuberculosis still. what could we do about that? >> it used to be the world's biggest killer. over the last 200 years, it killed a billion people. every fourth person in the 1800s, died from tuberculosis. but we fixed it. we know how to deal with it. so we don't think about it any more. but last year in 2022 it killed more people than covid. so it is one of those things that hit a lot of poor people. but most people in the rich world don't care. it is simple, you need treatment but it is hard to do because you need treatment for half a year. you need to take the pills for a full half year. you need to help people remember to do that. because if they don't, they'll

revert and have drug resistant tuberculosis. we know there are about $5.5 billion a year spent and you could save about a million people every year through 2050. again, if you spend that amount of money, you do $46 of social good for every dollar spent. >> finally, how are you going to get countries to do these things? you pointed out, they do have the money, this is not crazy amounts of money by any stretch for them? why do you think they're not doing it, and how do you change that? >> so the reality is, rich countries don't do it because we think about other things. but for poor countries, of course, the rich people in poor countries don't get tuberculosis either. it is migrants, it is in slum neighborhoods and all kinds of other places. the rich people's kids in poor countries go to good schools. and so in some ways this is the exact same thing, it is people without a voice. but the point is to say if you could show people you could do this so cheaply and so effectively for this little money, us having this

conversation is a way to get the message out. but at the end of the day it has to be politicians and normal people who say i want to do something about bad education in the world, i want to do something ability tuberculosis. but now we've given the case this is both cheap and incredibly effective. >> bjorn, great to have you on. >> thank you. >> the book is "best things first." next on the program, this program launched 15 years ago this week. we'll look back on the highs and lows in the last decade and a half and the extraordinary people we metal long the way. ♪ ♪ live your best day, every day with the power of the gelflex grid.

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and now for last week. this week marks a special anniversary here at the global public square, 15 years ago, on june 1st, 2008, this program had the world premiere on cnn.

>> welcome to the very first edition of "global public square." i'm fareed zakaria. >> it is astonishing how much has happened in the decade and a half since. i can't remember a more event-filled 24 hours since the end of the cold war. donald trump made history on tuesday becoming the most anti-establishment candidate to win the presidency. >> the revolutions in the arab world continues. the coronavirus outbreak has the potential to become a global pandemic. two bombs exploded near the finish line of the boston marathon. the gruesome death of george floyd, riots in american cities. >> after many years of ignoring the ever-growing tide of desperate refugees flowing out of syria and the middle east, the world suddenly sat up and paid attention. in dozens of cities across

iran, protests led by women are >> the leader of the world's largest nuclear power, publicly threatening to use nuclear weapons. the supreme court's decision on roe v. wade has brought the public's confidence in the court to an all-time low. >> when this show began, george w. bush was the american president, lehman brothers were still in business, britain was part of the european union and the iphone was still on version 1. we've seen wars erupt. and cities fall. there were earthquakes and oil spills. protests and populous movements. >> we will build a wall. >> terror groups were formed. and terrorists were hunted down.

>> the killing of osama bin laden, how has it been perceived around the world? >> we saw shootings in sandy hook and las vegas, and sadly, way too many more to list. there was the stunning insurrection on america's capitol. the economy crashed, grew again. let's turn now to the outbreak that has the world on edge. and a global pandemic changed the way we lived and worked. to help us understand it all, i've been joined by guests from around the globe. we've sat down with an american president on the roof of a hotel in new delhi, and inside the white house. >> i always tell my daughters, treat people kindly, be useful, use your time well.

but remember you're part of the larger sweep of this big story that brings us all together. >> and had a rare interview with a chinese premier. >> there is a famous photograph of you at tiananmen square in 1989. what lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989? >> we explored democracy in america. >> i do think that one of the incredible quotes is something that mousse mousalini said. you pluck the chicken one feather at a time and people don't notice. that is what concerned me. it's not some overt overthrow. >> and around the world. >> prime minister, the issue is not a democracy, it is what kind of democracy israel will have. will it have a liberal democracy

or illiberal democracy? >> we talked with deck tarts. >> will you be back in the u.s. soon? >> and autocrats. >> translator: i wouldn't want to think we're going down to some sort of a cold war and i'm sure no one is interested in that. >> a king. >> i believe that we could come together. >> and a queen. >> islam in and of itself does not subjugate women and hold them back. >> environmentalists. >> the future of our children as we go on destroying the environment. we depend on the environment. >> and human rights defenders. >> if we can't as an international community, prevent these crimes, the least we can do is try to punish them. >> i don't think i've ever offered prayers on television, but i pray that you will be safe and i hope it with all my heart. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> giants in their field. >> there's a line you use in

this -- in your memoirs, it's also a line martin luther king used in his great speech, that unearned suffering is redemptive. the idea that unearned suffering is redemptive. i mean, that -- does that come to you from the bible? from your spiritual background? >> it comes to me from the bible, from the teaching of jesus. but it also comes from the teaching of dr. king and gandhi. that you come to that point, where you believe in something that is so right and so necessary that you're prepared to die for it. >> and those just getting started. >> the climate crisis is the

biggest crisis humanity has ever faced. and if we don't do anything right now, we're screwed. >> we sat down with inventors. >> if you haven't tried hard enough. >> musicians. >> the great souls kind of right you. ♪ when i move my body it feels like freedom ♪ >> filmmakers. >> i'm also very visual, right? i get a lot of ideas from dreams. >> and brilliant actors. >> as night follows day, as the rolls are in real-life change, they will change in drama. >> we traveled the world. >> coming to you today from st. peter's burg, russia. >> live from london. >> high atop jordan. >> from davos, switzerland. >> i'm fareed zakaria in rome. >> we met extraordinary people from nearly every continent.

and close to 750 shows. >> how do we truly respect and value women? >> we can't be afraid of human. >> and diversity is our strength. and we had better get back to that unifying idea or we're going to be in big trouble. >> dr. king said, we are the only hope that america will realize the better part of itself, and i'm on that mission. >> it's been an adventure. >> so let's get started on what's going to be a hell of a ride. >> and i thank all of you for being a part of my program this week and for these last 15 years. and i will see you next week. meets bold new thinking. ♪

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