>> you can see the interview on cnn prime time tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern. finally tonight the televangelist pat robertson has died. robertson was a trail blazing figure in the conservative evangelical movement and played a key role in transforming the religious right into the key voting bloc into the republican party. robertson founded the broadcasting network and popularized the 700 club in 1988. robertson ran an unsuccessful bid for president. he was 93 years old. to our viewers, thanks very much fohing. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." erin burnett "out front" starts right now. ♪ ♪ out front next, trump racing for an indictment in multiple investigationses as we learn new details tonight about the case

federal prosecutors are building against the former president. trump's former attorney telling "out front" an indictment maybe you turned or unsealed this week. a russian commander convincing the russian private army of wagner group stealing military equipment and the fighting on the ground is intensifying tonight. a supreme court surprise, two conservatives joining the liberal justices and giving black voters a major victory. a decision that could help them win back the house and it's a significant decision with scotus and the head of the naacp will be my guest. let's go "out front "qwest. >> good evening to all of you. i'm erin burnett and trump is bracing for an indictment in multiple investigations and adhis bedminster, new jersey, home. one source telling cnn trump believes an indictment is likely to happen sooner rather than later and ty cobb out front regular tell us his sources an

indictment may be returned or unsealed as early as this week. judges will which in florida which is ground zero for trump's fight for classified documents at mar-a-lago and we are getting new and exclusive information tonight from a key former white house official who testified in that document's case. the former career official was in charge of advising the trump administration on the entire declassification process and this person told federal prosecutors that trump did know the proper process for declassifying documents and that he followed it correctly at times while in office and we do know that to be a fact. we have this document, this actually proves it. it shows, and this is a document about declassifying materials related to the hurricane investigation of the fbi. it's very specific. trump's very last full day in office that he knew and used proper declassification procedures to release part, but not all of the classified documents related to the investigation into his campaign's ties to russia. that investigation, as i said, was called cross fire hurricane

and in trump's own words in this document makes it very clear he doesn't believe that he himself has the power to just release all of the documents. in fact, if you read through it and it continues to show the process, i requested trump state, the document that the declassification review can be performed so i can determine to what extent materials in the binder should be released in unclassified form. i mean, it's all there and then here on the second page, the signature. so this is obviously, this is a process. these are the rules and these are the limitations and it's a far cry for how trump and his inner circle have tried to portray the declassification process since the documents of the classification be hand. >> there's the word i was looking for, that documents removed from the oval office were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them. >> you can say it's declassified and even by thinking about it. they become automatically

declassified when i took them. >> of course, this isn't the only potential indictment staring trump down tonight because we are learning that trump has privately told people that he will be indicted in the georgia criminal probe to overturn the election in the state of georgia. trump's team is reaching out to allies on capitol hill and they've been handing out talking points encouraging trump loyalists to go out in the media in the form of the president's defense. kat kat katelyn polantz is covering the details what are you learning tonight? >> this is one where prosecutors are piecing together all of the bits that could lead them to charge donald trump with knowingly, willfully, having classified or national security records outside of the protected hands of the federal government and in his possession after he left the white house. so, erin, whenever you look back

over the course of this investigation it is quite lengthy and there have been so many witnesses and i just want to walk through some of them because when you read their names back-to-back, it is stacking up, the people who fill out if the puzzle on the entire arc of the story and mark meadows, his white house chief of staff who he was helping with the document issues and had people writing a book that were speaking with trump at a time where trump was holding up a paper and captured on audio talking about classified documents from the pentagon. there's evan corcoran, his former defense attorney or his current defense attorney who in this investigation had been forced to talk about what his conversations with the clients were and last year leading up to the search of mar-a-lago to the fbi. and there are trump officials who handled security and the senior and junior and cakash pal

and dealing with the records of donald trump and more staffers and political aides that we know have been subpoenaed by grand juries or the grand jury that's been investigating this for the special counsel's office. we also did have this reporting today at cnn. my colleague zach cohen and paula reid broke the story that a former white house official was interviewed to talk about trump knowing and following the declassification properly while he was in the white house and that is a piece that puts into perspective whether he was able to continue to do that or realize that declassification had a specific process after he left and it wasn't a process where he could do it with his mind or hold up a document and decide it was his to keep. we have to see what the prosecutors do with all of this and put it together, and now we are just watching them. we are going to watch to see if we see them in florida tomorrow at thiscourt house upon we'll

watch to see if we see the grand jury and we have seen them twice on back-to-back days. >> caitlin, thank you very much in florida. >> with me, ryan goodman, elliot williams, and scott jennings. thank you very much for all of you for being with me. trump's team is preparing for an indictment and ty cobb saying it could come as early as this week, and caitlin said lead prosecution team was seen leaving the courthouse in miami today. so is this imminent? >> it sure seems imminent and there are no reporting that there's been witnesses before the grand jury today, and it's consistent that they might be presenting the final sum magsz for an indictment to agree to or not, so i think we're that close. >> elliot, in florida, a couple of weeks ago it wasn't the center of the conversation and now it is very much the center of the conversation that this

could happen there. so do you think that that is better or worse for the prosecution? >> it's different for the prosecution and it all depends on where different crimes were alleged to have been committed. retention is different from possession is different from obstruction and is different from destroying a document and those might have happened in washington, d.c., and some might have happened in florida and you can only charge it where the law says it that happened. it looks like there's a cleaner and more straightforward path defining venue in florida, but that doesn't mean they cannot also bring charges in washington, d.c. and have a whole bunch of trials around the country. >> for the same sort of thing. that's interesting, just to put that context on it. >> sara, you were a deputy white house press secretary and you dealt with him, sources close to the teams say he's not angry or agitated right now, at least that's what he's presenting and on social media it's been light of all caps and the other one

the other day, new york, doj, atlanta da, fascists all. so where -- is he red for an indictment? >> think it sounds like his team is saying that he's putting on a brave face and they're going to try to convince themes that this is a nothing burger. i think they're looking back at what the fallout was with the alvin bragg indictment which we're not really talking about that much anymore, but i think the level of charges and the crimes that he's being potentially accused of with this potential indictment are much more severe than what he's facing with the manhattan d.a. case and it's all a witch hunt and politically motivated and it will be hard for them to try to equate the two. >> then you have january 6th coming and georgia and this is another piece in the ongoing rubik's cube, scott. in response to this, mike pence is running for president now, right?

and he has now decided to come out left, right and center swinging. not chris christie style, but aggressively for mike pence on trump on a lot of issues, but not on this one. here he is with dana bash last night. >> this kind of action by the department of justice i think would only fuel further division in the country. i hope the doj thinks better of it and resolves these issues without an indictment. >> so it wasn't that -- like i said, he's punching him everywhere he can, but not on this. >> the interesting duality of mike pence who will defend the constitution and defend the rule of law, but obstruction of justice and espionage act, we'll let it go because it's donald trump. this shows the trouble that his candidacy is going to run into, running the kind of race he'll have to run. however, i do think he's an important barometer for what you will see out of the party. i think virtually every republican will scream double standard and why isn't joe biden in trouble for this and why isn't hillary clinton in trouble for this and why is the corrupt

fbi allowed to do this to donald trump and there will be a lot of pressure for team trump on the house republicans to fight back. >> right. >> could that be an impeachment for merrick garland and could it be calls to defund the fbi or the people working on the investigation, and you will see a combination of tactics to turn up the heat inside the republican party and most republicans will fall in line. >> political circus and are they the ones coming, we'll see. at some point maybe something does move the needle, we'll see. >> hillary clinton and joe biden. specifically joe biden and one of the witnesses who said how trump handled classified documents and the cases are being handled very differently. in the case of biden it was very much in the process how they got the boxes out of the garage with the corvette and to where they needed to go.

does it surprise you that they were handled differently? >> it doesn't because the conduct of the two individuals was the same and scott made a great point on air last night, mike pence's own case is the best example of this where there simply was not evidence to suggest that mike pence had mishandled mishandled intentionally, allegedly, what donald trump had. pursuing investigation based on the conduct that they've uncovered and the president's own statements himself as to how he might have handled the documents. you just don't have the same situations with either pence or biden. i would want the two of them. >> it does strike me that there's a high public relations threshold here because half the country is going to believe that this is a complete and total politically motivated double standard and whatever the indictment is and whatever the evidence is and whatever the case is there will have to be a very clear explanation, what is the difference? >> law yers are very guilty

because they just know we're right and that's simply not the case. >> this is a problem the entire country is existentially facing and don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. it's an issue and you get the facts out there and people don't necessarily believe them. this, though, there are some facts and they want to declassify the russia investigation and talking about requesting review and maybe some can and some can't and he signs it, and this isn't just like i think, therefore i declassify. if he thought they took the papers with him to mar-a-lago they would magically be declassified and they would go through the processes especially because he had such a strong interest in having the material declassified in the russia investigation. so i think that will be a bit of a slam dunk for the prosecutors. they seem to have a ton of evidence. cnn also had the report from a few months ago where i think there were well over a dozen former high-level officials from trump's administration and white

house who said there was no such thing as a standing declassification order and it would have sent out all alarms if there was such a thing or anything like it and i think that would be easily defeated. >> so you were there and you know, did he know the proper process? this indicates he cared a lot about this particular issue and this isn't a sign that he's looking in the distance. >> this is, like, where's the document for the russia investigations. >> this isn't something that i would have had a hand in, being in the communications office, but i will say that i know the career officials there are of the highest, you know, i mean, in their field they are highly respected and so i know that they would follow the proper processes and they would inform them of what it was and clearly, we know that he's gone through this process with declassifying documents already and he knows better, but bhe's trying to mislead the public by saying i

took the documents and therefore they're declassified or joe biden or mike pence did it. the difference is it warrant being reckless in taking classified documents from the white house mistakenly. it's that when asked me did not return them. >> and the obstruction portion of it, and it's amazing when he said so clearly who he was. if you just say it enough they'll believe you and we see that again and again with so many. thank you all very much. next, new and intense fighting in ukraine as out front obtained shocking video of a russian soldier saying he was abducted and taken by the private army and saying he was not the only one beaten by wagner fighters. two of the most conservative judges backed that ruling. the head of the naacp is out front next and joran van der sloot is now in the united states landing a short time ago on an fbi plane and he is the suspect in the disappearance of natalee holloway, and he is

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russian soldiers. >> translator: i was captured, held in a basement and abused in a way that no embittered russian soldier would have used a captive ukrainian soldier. i was beaten, not allowed to sleep and i was dragged out of the basement three times during the night. they tried to shoot me. >> cnn can't independently verify those allegations, of course, but the wagner chief yevgeny prigozhin dismisses them, no surprise, as absolute nonsense, but they are another example of the bitter public feud between the russian military and the wagner fighting group. it comes as intense fighting is under way now. ukrainian forces are moving and attempting to breach russia's defensive lines in both the east and the south and u.s. officials tonight tell cnn that ukraine's military has suffered significant losses with soldiers and heavy equipment after meeting greater russian resistance. fred pleitgen is out front.

♪ ♪ >> breaking news on cr kremlin-controlled tv claiming they're facing massive attacks in ukraine. >> translator: ukrainian forces attacked with nato tanks and light armored vehicle. our army has fought off these attacks. russia's diefense ministry showing their forces targeting advancing ukrainian formation in the zaporizhzhia region. moscow claims to have taken a modern anti-aircraft system close to the front line. on a visit to an arms depot, russia's defense minister ur faster weapons deliveries. >> the enemy tried to advanc equipment is needed. let's hurry up. >> while the ukrainians have not confirmed defensive operations and cnn can't independently verify the specific russian claims, u.s. officials have told cnn the russians are putting up stiff resistance. ukraine's leadership says they

understand their counteroffensive will be long and tough, and they'll need lots of armor to penetrate russia's defenses. they showed us this repair and modification shop where they fix up mostly vehicles captured from the russians including this modern troop transporter. even with all of the western equipment that the ukrainians have already received they still have a lot less than the russians do and that's why every tank and every armored vehicle will be vital to ukraine's war effort. that includes seemingly destroyed vehicles like this blown-up armored personnel carrier the project manager tells me. >> all of this, we can restore and go to the units. >> further along the southern front line the situation in the areas flooded by the recent destruction by the major dam is deteriorating. ukraine and russia accusing each other of targeting operations to

rescue flood victims. ukraine's chief dodging for cover as shells rain down. >> bring people here from over the river. -- [ bleep ]. >> the ukrainians say several people were wounded in kherson as the authorities continue to fight to bring those stranded to safety. >> so, fred, how is the ukrainian military responding after suffering what u.s. defense officials are saying were significant losses on the front lines? >> yeah, erin, they're trying to show that they still have the initiative not just here in the south, but in all parts of the battlefield in ukraine and it was interesting because there was an operational update where they were saying on the southern front line where aledly all of this happened that the russians there are actively defending in that sector which obviously means that the ukrainians are the ones who still have the initiative and that more is to come and what they're trying to say is this a long front line

and it's a big battlefield and no place where the russians are making significant gains and one of the places that ukrainians are pointed to is bakhmut where they've made significant gains over the russians in the last couple of days. the commander of the land forces posted on his channel tonight a picture of ukrainians destroying a russian tank and saying ukrainians in that sector are hitting the russians in the teeth. erin? >> fred, thank you very much. next, the surprising ruling for the supreme court in favor of black voters in alabama. both roberts and kavanaugh cite siding with the liberal justices. did they just help democrats win back the house and wild commentcomments just like this just tonight. >> we've killed 350,000 ukrainian kids in a -- in a -- for a sham.

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>> right. that's -- okay. yes. hi there, sorry. we're working the sources and working my phone right now, erin. at this point former president trump has posted on truth social that his attorneys have been informed by the justice department that he has been indicted. we have been on the phone with justice department sources. we did not have any independent confirmation that this is true. we have obviously been watching for this, we have been waiting for this, after the former president received a letter from the justice department informing him that he is, indeed a target of the federal investigation after the possible mishandling of classified documents and that is a formal step notifying someone that they have the opportunity to go before a grand jury that they could be charged. at this point again, this is just the former president posting to social media that he's been informed that he's been indicted and at this point there is no official confirmation for the justice

department, the official counsel's office or the fbi. >> paula, thank you very much. i should note, of course, there have been other times when he said i have no idea and i didn't know anything about this when we learned that his lawyers had been told. so i'm not trying to make implications about what this is or isn't, but either way, it is significant that he is going ahead and posting that he's been indicted. >> now i can hear you. we rushed over here, so -- >> i know. >> technology was second to the reporting. i'm sorry. can you repeat your question? >> on other times on social media he's posted he didn't know anything about this when his lawyer his been notified and other situations whether it be e. jean carroll or alvin bragg and the fact that he's come out and saying he's being indicted could be the case although we don't yet know if it is. >> exactly. we did reach out to the special counsel's office and they were not able to confirm and we did speak to his spokesman and we are not able to get confirmation

on this. we were previously told that they would issue some sort of press release if and when this happened. all right now we have a social media post from the former president saying that his attorneys have been informed that he has been indicted and right now no confirmation and we're working the phones and we've reached out to the justice department and the special counsel. >> and we'll let you find out what that is, whether it is an indictment and what counts and what it's about and all of those details are crucial in this. ryan goodman, let me ask you here, obviously, to emphasize to everyone. donald trump is posting on his own social media site that he has been indicted. we do not yet know when that is true or not or the details and obviously in the sense of this being imminent it would be completely consistent with the situation if it's true. >> 100%. just ten minutes ago we were saying when could this happen? it could happen today because of

the tea leaveseporting of any witnesses and it was consistent of him presenting evidence to the grand jury for them to agree to an indictment or not. so i think that it's fully realistic that this has happened, and it would be no surprise. the only thing that is a surprise might be what's actually in the indictment and how egregious some of the conduct that might be there and what exactly the crimes are. >> elliot, we don't know yet and there's an indictment and never mind what's in it, but that is going to be obviously very crucial. how far it goes and what they extend it to and whether it's merely obstruction, how many documents and whether it extends to espionage. >> and as we were talking about earlier in the show, where it is. is it florida? is it washington, d.c., and for what particular crimes? we just simply do not know. it's always with great caution that we pounce on something that comes on donald trump's truth feed, but ryan's points are exactly correct.

this would be consistent with the imminent -- >> on that front, i believe paula reid, you have confirmed, indeed that the former president of the united states has been indicted. >> erin, i am told by an official familiar with the matter that this social media post is correct. the former president has been indicted and i don't have details in terms of the specific charges and in terms of the specific counts and the former president got out ahead of the official announcement of the special counsel to announce that yes, he has been indicted by a federal grand jury in the ongoing investigation into the possible mishandling of classified materials. >> paula, thank you. paula will continue working this, katelyn polantz, because that's the next crucial question. ryan, let me ask you, though, if the president, former president, donald j. trump has now been indicted, would he know the details and would they have been presented with all of that in

this situation whether they be in florida or washington? those are details we simply don't know yet? >> it's difficult to know, but he might have been informed of what's in it and i would imagine that the justice department may release it tomorrow so that the entire public can see it and the big question is is it a speaking indictment? is it written for the american public so that people can understand what happened -- >> tell the story. >> a narrative of what they found and what their theory of the case is and high likelihood and it doesn't get higher than this case that it would be a speaking indictment that informs us of that kind of information and it goes from the news pages that has been reporting. >> here is the one detail that he is posting on truth social that he is someone to have appeared in the courthouse in miami tuesday at 3:00 p.m. so translate, elliot. >> it's an indictment in the southern district of florida. it is a federal district that

serves miami, fort lauderdale, and i was a clerk in that courthouse many, many years ago. i hesitate to speculate as to what u what the actual charges are and they're different than what was brought in washington, d.c., and mar-a-lago is there and they were obstruction of justice and a number of offenses. >> destruction, dissemination, whatever it is, all could have happened there. >> ryan, miami. i understand the grand jury was there, but there have been questions about whether this would be in miami-dade or whether this would be in palm beach which would be potentially different jurisdictions in terms of how this can go for him. does appearing in miami say anything to you? >> it's not clear at this point as to what the jury pool will be like and who the judge will be. i think that's another thing everybody will be watching if because on the wheel is eileen canon who was the judge in the prior proceedings that kind of went off the rails. the judge that most people in

the legal community felt was highly biassed and a trial judge would have enormous control. so that's another big question that people should be looking for. >> let's get back to paula reid who has a bit more information now. >> that's right. ry have two sources confirming to myself and my colleague kristen holmes that president trump has been indicted into the possible mishandling of classified documents at his mar-a-lago beach club and potentially other locations. at this point we do not know the specific charges. we do not know the number of charges, but, erin, this does not come as a terrible surprise because we know the former president's attorneys have received a target letter recently informing him that he was the target which usually is followed pretty closely thereafter by an indictment and this is something that we've been watching for and waiting for and the former president seemed to get out ahead of the announcement on social media and we have two sources continuing to use the phone about the

nature of the charges and how many he would face. >> what she just said is true, right? this was anticipated that this was going to happen. nonetheless, when something happens and you are hit with the meaning of it, it matters, but politically, there he is again, going a head of it and he's going to try to seize it and turn it to fund-raising and everything else. >> absolutely. you can see that he's trying to juxtapose and that is the message they want republicans to carry. if you think about where we are in the context of the campaign str cycle, could he reach a plea agreement in which he serves no jail time which could potentially serve his political ends? in that case, he says yeah, i kept it, okay. so did joe biden. so did mike pence. >> it's all corrupt and we'll

clean it out as we get there. to me as a political strategist looking at this and not as a lawyer, how do you get out of it and keep running for president or does he think maybe running for president and winning is his best defense? those are the kinds of things i'm thinking about tonight. >> it doesn't make him any less likely to get the republican nomination even after been indicted. i mean, i don't -- i'm not an expert on republican politics, but i suspect it doesn't make him less likely to get the nomination. >> one issue that we didn't discuss earlier, however, if in the evidence it were made clear or said that he somehow took classified material and it got into the hands of a foreign national that would complicate his arguments that he constantly makes against biden and hunter biden about their ties in ukraine and china. if he somehow caused american classified material to get into the hands -- again, we have no idea and we haven't seen any of this, but to me that would be more destabilizing than just

some of the things we heard. >> we'll pause for one moment. paula reid, i know you have a little bit more. paula is on her phone talking and then pops up here. >> i'm literally texting and writing at the same time. one of the questions is where would these charges be filed and the truth social post is accurate. the former president has been asked to report next tuesday at 3:00 p.m. in miami for his initial appearance and that is significant because it suggests that this indictment likely came out of the florida grand jury and that's something wie only really known about for a week now. we believe this is a recent investigation that they're using in florida andes have traveled from all over the country before the grand jury where the special council and the fact that they moved and picked up this entire case and moved to florida suggests there would be concerns whether it would be upheld in

court for d.c. to be the venue. this is arguably a ray of hope for the trump team that had hoped between d.c. and florida that any potential trial will be down in florida, but the first challenge even in florida that his lawyers will try to conduct this entire probe and the entire investigation in d.c. so they could get favorable rulings on the executive privilege challenges and then move the case to florida. i am told that will be one of the first challenges that will be launched here. >> paula, thank you. s paula was speaking we are confirming one other part of this. there are seven counts in this indictment which is coming out of south florida. so ryan, take this, what she's saying about all of the work, all of the testimony and everything that was done in front of a grand jury in washington. does it all get handed to florida and then in a week they're able to return this with seven counts? >> what does all of this mean?

>> 100%, all of the information could be transferred over to florida and then read in for the florida jury which has been sitting now for a few weeks so that may have happened way back when and then they had maybe additional witnesses and just a few apparently, and they get presented with the entire package and they vote on the indictment. if we have this many counts based on the historical practice of when the justice department does charge forring s something the espionage act, i would guess that each of those counts were a separate offense and different conduct, and each count might have multiple documents. >> right. that's because that's what i was wondering. is it a count per document or a clump? i guess, is it possible to, you know, read interesting into seven counts? >> i think it would be -- i would guess -- >> obstruction? >> absolutely. so i would go like this, based on the evidence based on available is public doj filings

and the new york court when they tried to successfully pierce the attorney-client privilege and one is obstruction and it is also the espionage act. they said that to barrel howe chief judge in d.c., so there's likely those two and then in addition to that it could be defiance of a grand jury subpoena and that's another one, another form of obstruction and i also think they would go forward on classified documents charges and other parts of the espionage act and not just retention of documents and they refer to the national defense information and classified documents and i don't think they'll blink one bit on the idea that these were declassified and it could be the full gamut to have that many counts. >> it went big. >> they went big. >> and then -- >> the one thing they think that may be in trump's favor is conspiracy. the idea that we have not heard of anybody else being indicted. >> no. the thakt that it's in miami there is a strong legal argument that you can bring it to d.c.

it doesn't matter where the conduct took place and the fact that it's in miami is one positive thing for him tonight, but i do think that to scott's point the one thing i'll be looking for is is there a charge or count for dissemination of information because the washington pest, pea did share it at mar-a-lago and if they say something, including a -- and j -- just go back to the search warrant and the three items identified in the search warrant were. one was the espionage act and the mishandling of defense-specific information, two was the mishandling of classified or sensitive government documents and three, be on s obstruction of justice and all of that that was reported since then seems to support that

somewhere in those three crimes might be a charge and obstruction of justice being one that given the other charges that they seem to be talking about or bringing, obstruction is probably -- >> let's go to kristen holmes now. she's got the breaking details on the seven counts. kristen, what are you learning? >> so right now they're still on a call. they are talking about political team and the lawyers and they're trying to find out exactly what this means and trump putting this out on social media almost immediately after learning it and we do know there are seven counts here in this indictment. again, all i know is that thaw are working through it at this second and as we've report all day, he and his top aides were huddled at bedminster and they were waiting for him to happen and now, of course, it has. what i have learn side they

exactly that means and as soon as they are. >> absolutely, kristen, it's still -- you've been talking about the legal merits and the potential counts against him. we haven't talked about the gravity of even a twice-impeached former president of the united states being criminally prosecuted by the federal department of justice, a department that he used to oversee just a few years ago. this is extraordinarily sad as a day and a moment in history for the united states, even as many people, myself included, would take solace in knowing that the rule of law can still apply even to a former president of the united states. >> right. and that's certainly what we're seeing. >> the department of justice that he used to oversee and that he's now overseen by his once and probable future rival for the presidency. i mean, that has obviously never happened before, but that will be lost on a lot of republicans.

this department of justice is overseen by an appointee of joe biden. i think you can see this as a key talking point for republicans, just how weaponized. you're hearing this in other venue, but that weaponization word you will hear it over and over again that joe biden will weaponize to keep donald trump -- >> and they will be b.s. because we have someone who has been very methodical about this. frankly, there are other things that president trump could have been charged for that he waisn'. there was criticism for merrick g garland and the lack of charge for other things and the weaponization may resonate with some republicans. >> well, there's the politics of it -- >> but it woen't be accurate. >> he is fund-raising off of this and there is movements happening with security and evan perez is learning about that. we understand the former president will be appearing in front of a courthouse in miami

tuesday at 3:00 p.m. already, though, you have news of security moving. >> that's right. that's right, erin. we expect that the -- that the justice department is expecting obviously that they need to boost the security down there in miami. so they're moving resources beginning early next week ahead of that expected first appearance before a magistrate down in miami federal court. that tells us that this is where the case has been brought after months of taking testimony from witnesses here in washington. for whatever reason they decided that miami is the place to bring this case and so that's what now the justice department is having to scramble to bring -- to bring resources in to handle an expected, a very complicated security situation. erin, for months, frankly, the justice department was expecting that maybe they would be dealing

with possible security issues here in washington where they are more equipped, right? there's a lot more resources here in washington to deal with this, so having to do something in miami certainly, i think, you can tell has taken some of these folks by a -- a little bit by surprise which is why they're scrambling to make those resources brought to miami ahead of the former president's first appearance before a magistrate down there in miami. >> thank you very much. as our team is working the details. >> kristen holmes reporting serve counts and she's saying they're literally on a call on a trump team, reading through it, trying to understand and read through what they are and that's literally what's happening as we're having this conversation. >> i was reading this in "the washington post" two days ago, looking at an indictment,

retention versus dissemination and i would be curious to see, what scott thinks about it. indictment includes other information. would it say that the department of justice believes that there's still documents out there in the wild that are either in trump's control or he's lost control of them? in terms of the national security implications of this case, does that also potentially change the equation? >> it certainly goes on what mike pence was saying yesterday that donald trump violated his oath of office and abused the constitution in his role as commander in chief. if there are national security imply implications for the documents and they're very sensitive and whatever we find out. you can southeasternly see mike pence even though he said trump shouldn't be indicted on this. when he had the power, he put himself before the constitution,

he may have boxed outside out of that argument because he said the department of justice should let him go. >> right. the former president's team is on the phone going through this right now. he, we understand, is in bedminster new jersey at his home there and alina is there. what are you learning? he's there at bedminster right now. >> >> he is. we are very near to bedminster where the former president is. and he is there with some of his aides. i'll tell you, erin, he has been bracing for this potential indictment for some time now. for the past couple of days, he knew that the special counsel was closing in on the probe, and really, i think learning that he was the target of the special counsel's investigation was really the sharpest signal yet that they were closing in on this, and that possible charges against the former president were imminent. now we're told -- i've been talking to a lot of the former president's advisers, as have my colleagues.

they say they don't think he's been angry in the past few day, knowing that indictment was potentially looming, and he's really seemed to kind of take this little -- we'll see if that's the case now. he's been posting on truth social and releasing details of this indictment. >> right. >> and definitely continuing to call it a political witch hunt, continuing to say that he hasn't done any wrongdoing. but they're still trying to formulate how they're going to officially respond to this. >> all right. thank you very much, elena. she is in bedminster, new jersey, where of course the former president is with his advisers right now. i want to get back to paula reid in washington with some breaking news on the special counsel. what you learning, paula? >> at this point, erin, we do not expect to hear anything from the office of special counsel jack smith. of course the former president clearly got out in front of any intended announcement that they had planned, and i'm told not to expect anything officially from their office tonight. it is a little surprising, erin, because this is a historic moment. this is the first time a former president of the united states is facing a federal indictment.

much of the information we're getting right now is from truth social. then of course we're going to our source. but the fact that the prosecutor heading up this investigation, who pursued this indictment is not going to come out and say something i today, that is their decision. so far throughout the course of this investigation, jack smith has had absolutely no interest in engaging with the press. >> right. >> so at this point, we don't expect to hear anything from him or his office, and it's unclear if and when we will hear from the office. >> paula, thank you very much. i want to get a better understanding of trump's role in this right now. but ryan and eliot first, quickly to you. when you hear all of this happen in d.c., and suddenly -- i'm not saying -- we only found out when we found out about that south florida grand jury a week ago. that's when we found out everything was happening in washington. what does it say to you it appears there was a sudden shift and now all of this is happening in terms of what special counsel is thinking or was special counsel surprised, or did something unexpected happen?

>> so difficult to know. >> right. >> but it does seem that some of the things we do know, there was a grand jury that issued a subpoena back in 2022 to just get the material back. >> yep. >> that's the subpoena that he got. that's the subpoena that he defied. by the allegations of the justice department. and then they started building a case. now a lot of the conduct happens by removal of the documents from d.c. and taken to miami. maybe they don't make their decision as to where exactly they'll file the charges until later in the day. and then when they make that decision, they need to go to the grand jury and the venue and jurisdiction where they'll file the charges. but at time one, they're just accumulating all the evidence that they have. >> but then they had to have like basically a really wick power point to go down in there in a few days and say okay, guy, read through these through bullet points. go ahead and hand us this indictment. >> sure. but my sense as they were building the case, this is backing up ryan's point, eventually they found what was indictable, and it was -- they were just going to run into tougher venue problems in washington, d.c. that happens when you're building cases.

the conduct happens in various places around the country. you can't charge it everywhere. and what they could have done is try to bring it in washington, d.c., but just end up in a fight in court for a year litigating. >> standing judiciary committee. >> these arcane questions about jurisdiction. they're very hard to prove. >> kara scannell, has anyone watching knows has been a big part of this. kara, you've done a lot of work on this crucial venue question and why we are going to see the former president appear in miami to answer to this indictment at 3:00 p.m. on tuesday. >> well, so erin, one question here is on venue. one of the areas that prosecutors look to when they're bringing a case is trying to put it in the place where the alleged crime took place. mar-a-lago is about 70 miles north of where i'm standing right now, and, you know, that is where a lot of the allegations that have -- we don't know what the actual charges are right now, but that's what this investigation has been looking at the handling

of these documents. some of them are classified since the former president left office. and he brought those documents here to florida. so that is in essence of where some of this investigation can be. you'll remember that a lot of this investigation, one of the things that came out in some of the early court filings is that they're looking at possible obstruction of justice. there were a number of subpoenas sent to the president's legal team here in florida. doj came here to look for documents, and then they did not believe that they got all the cooperation that they needed, and they got a court-ordered search warrant to come and have the fbi search the premises at mar-a-lago. so if this indictment is focusing on obstruction, that is where that activity would have allegedly taken place. and we do know from my colleague and our team of reporters that a number of witnesses that prosecutors have spoken to have been some low level employees of mar-a-lago, some close aides of president trump who were involved in the moving of some of these documents in the storage area just as the justice

department was coming to look for them. so that is often a key reason why prosecutors charge in one place, because they get the jurisdiction there and the venue there. so that could give us a sense of what the focus of these charges are, though we're still waiting to see exactly what they are, erin. >> right, right. all we know is that there are seven counts being brought in miami and southern florida, and that the former president will be appearing in miami to answer to those on tuesday. we know that his team, our kristen holmes has been reporting has been on a call going through this, trying to figure out what these charges are. sarah matthews, former press secretary for former president trump, here we are knowing his inner circle and who is left of it, who it is now. how does all this go down right now as they're trying to figure this out? >> yeah, i think that you're going to see that they're going to reach out to their allies and they're going to say that we need to blow this up and say that this is a political witch hunt, that he is being indicted because he is running for president and he is performing

so well in the polls. i think the messaging that they're going to try to portray is going to be similar to what he put out on his truth social. but the issue is that from what i know about trump, he is going to say that he is being indicted because he is running for president. but i believe that he is running for president because he knew he was facing legal trouble, and that he could use his campaign as a shield then and say this is politically motivated and they're coming after me because they don't want me to be president again. but the thing is, this shows that no one is above the law, not even a former president. >> no, absolutely. all right. let's get back the paula reid. paula, as you're breaking this kind of moment by moment, we are still here at a point where we understand the former president, donald j. trump has been indicted in southern florida by the doj and that it's seven counts. >> that's exactly right. this is the first time a former president of the united states, erin, has faced a federal indictment. as you said, we believe there are seven counts. at this point, though, we do not

know the specific charges. the former president, as we understand it, is expected to appear in miami on tuesday at 3:00 p.m. for his initial appearance. now he is calling this, quote, a dark day for the country. and at this point, we do not, i am told, we should not expect to hear from special counsel jack smith or his office at any point today. it's unclear if we'll hear from them tomorrow. but we're continuing to work the phones to find out exactly what the former president has been charged with. we know he was under investigation for several different crimes, including possible mishandling of classified documents, potential crimes related to defense information, and also possible efforts to obstruct this, even potentially conspiracy. but at this point, it's unclear what the seven counts are. >> all right, paula, thank you, as we await that ryan, one thing i think everyone in this country should be able to agree on, perhaps for different reasons, obviously, is that it is a dark day. it is a dark day to see a former president of the united states

charged with obstructing justice and with taking classified documents, national security documents out of the white house and preventing them from being returned. >> it's the exact same thought i had when he said that, that it's actually a truth. it's a dark day for the country. and it's obviously an enormous historic moment. but will be looked back as a dark day that this has happened, that it's reached this point, and that the allegations are this serious, and it's of a national security matter this large. >> and as we await those counts, one thing we should be looking for. you talk about a talking indictment, right, which i know we talked a lot about in the alvin bragg case in new york that would include a lot of detail, all the context. do you think we're going to get something like this? is it going to be documents? >> i think it might. now look, the justice department almost as a platitude said we speak through our documents, not through the words of the attorney general or jack smith or anyone else. and that's lawyer speak and not the real world we live in.

and donald trump is right now out there eating the justice department's lunch by issues statements and getting ahead of the public narrative. now look, i was prosecutor in federal government for 15 years. i support the fact that the justice department is not getting into the silly season, but, again, a lot of this is a sort of public communications and political fight. >> issue a statement. >> until tomorrow or the point at which either charges are unsealed or made public. i get it. i get it. i get it. but you know, this is a different game when you're charging a president of the with a crime. and that's what we're seeing here. >> you got to play by a different game. all right. all thank you so very much on this historic day with this breaking news, the former president of the united states, donald j. trump has been indicted on seven counts in the mar-a-lago documents case. let's hand it off now for our breaking news coverage continuing with anderson. and good evening. what has never happened before