but, you're gonna continue to hear that, that it's the politicization of. this both sides are gonna go to their corners, and they're gonna come back out, touch gloves, and fight from now until election day. >> the reality is, we are going to have political back and forth. part of the beauty, if i could say so, of our criminal justice system is, none of that should matter in the court. we're gonna have a jury of 12 civilians in florida, deciding this case. and i also think, some of the things i'm going to be looking for when we see this indictment that are legally important, may influence and shape the political debate. for example, of course we need to see the specific charges. on the willful retention of documents charge, what did donald trump do with those documents? that may or may not be specified in the indictment. but if he did something with them, of import, that's gonna make a. difference >> i've got to take a break, we'll be back with more in just a moment. we'll be right back. i don't know how long it's been there. long enough to produce eggs, it seems. it would appear that it has begun moving towards us! visionworks. see the difference.

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>> it is not every day you can go to bed knowing knowing you've seen something no one has ever seen before -- it is sometimes the great joy of sometimes the great sorrow -- >> yeah, and one thing, anderson -- there is also more of this tonight, and so we will turn things over to dana bash and erin burnett.

>> good evening, everyone. i'm erin burnett. >> and i'm dana bash. >> our breaking news -- tonight the federal indictment of donald trump. the first time in american history that a former president has faced federal charges. donald trump has been indicted in the classified documents investigation, and charged with seven counts, at least one will be a conspiracy charge, according to a source. trump's team does not expect charges to be unsealed tonight. another source said, but in a video he takes aim at the justice department. >> it's called election interference. they are trying to destroy our reputation, so they can win an election. that's just as bad as doing any of the other things that have been done over the last number of years. >> well there he is, lashing out. the former president said he's been summoned to appear in the federal courthouse in miami on tuesday afternoon. and in a statement, he says

it's a dark day in america, something everyone should be able to agree with, regardless of how you see. this but then, he goes on to insist that he's innocent. >> i'm an innocent man. i did nothing wrong. >> i want to bring in evan perez, our senior justice correspondent, to begin our coverage here. and evan, you know the trump team is saying they have not yet seen the full indictment. there's a lot we still don't know, but a lot minute by minute, that you are learning. >> that's right erin. we know, just in the last hour, certainly from the trump attorneys, that they have received the -- summons. which shows essentially a basic charge sheet. there were seven charges, according to them, we were told according to them that one of them has to do with the 793. which is the espionage act. one of them is 15 12, which is the obstruction of justice charge. there's a witness tampering charge, according to the list that they provided. conspiracy again. those are among the charges that we are aware of, according to the trump attorneys.

and the idea, at this point right now erin, is that late this evening, the former presidents legal team was notified that there had been indictment in miami, and he is set to appear on tuesday, at three pm, at the federal court for his first appearance with a federal magistrate. we know that, frankly, this was something being held very tightly by jack smith, the special counsel and his team. law enforcement officials who are going to be in charge of trying to secure the president, secure the courthouse, and secure those judges, were caught off guard frankly by. this they were not notified, they would've not known this until after the former president had already gone public with this information on truth social. and we can talk a little bit more about this, i mean it's something that i am a little surprised that the justice department is allowing the former president to set the narrative of exactly what the special counsel has done. at the end of this investigation, it's almost like they didn't learn anything from

last august, when the former president was the first to tell publicly, that he and his house had been raided at mar-a-lago. and then, for the next few days, spun a bunch of lies about exactly what had happened, including allowing for threats against the fbi agents that carried out the search. >> and to that point, evan, they are coming out. he broke this before the justice department. they are talking about the summons. when do we get to all see the actual indictment of the charges, how does this happen from here? obviously, he's appearing as you said on tuesday at three pm. but, when, if, how do we all see the actual indictment? >> well, someone has to go to a judge and asked the judge to an see that indictment. again, we don't know exactly when this grand jury, or when the grand jury returned that indictment. we saw a lot of activity kara scannell and hannah rabinowitz were inside that courthouse

today, trying to figure out what was happening. we saw that there is activity in the grand jury room, but we don't know whether that grand jury returns that indictment today. so, what we know is that beginning tomorrow morning, certainly someone, perhaps the justice department, will go and ask the judge to unseal the indictment. jim trusty told kaitlan collins in the last hour that he hopes that they could see it before the tuesday court hearing. erin burnett, that's the truth. that until the justice department or until a judge and seals it, we don't know what the special counsel's alleging against the former president. and we don't know the seriousness of these charges until. then. >> and that's unbelievable. as you said, just because something feels empty air, something fills it. and maybe it's better to let the facts and let the tooth fill it then speculation. all right evan, thanks so much. i mean dana, it is incredible, here we are and we know so much, and yet we still know so little. and, we don't know when this information is all going to

come out. >> no absolutely. and the fact that, as kaitlan collins heard from one of donald trump's attorneys. even they haven't seen the indictment yet. they've just gotten word about it. i want -- on the notion of donald trump and what his team is hearing, i want to go to cnn's kristen holmes. you have done some reporting, you're still doing reporting as we speak. what are you hearing from inside trump world, about how he's doing and what they are hearing? >> right now, i think it's starting to wind down. there was a lot of excitement and concern over the last several hours, as this began to unfold. and as you noted, look, this is still sealed. nobody that i've spoken to in trump's political world has actually seen this indictment. they have just heard from attorneys what this looks like. this is something that they were not taken by surprise when it happened. and yet, it is still shocking nonetheless, given the fact that the former president, in an unprecedented move, has been indicted by the department of justice. and as we've been reporting a lot today, donald trump himself

was starting to tell people that he believed he was going to be indicted. i talked to a number of senior advisers, who said yes, we think that this is going to happen. his entire team was prepared for this moment. they have had a call with the lawyers, but just as jim trusty said to kaitlan collins, they don't have all of the information yet. and sources are telling me that they aren't expecting this to be unsealed tonight, or possibly even tomorrow morning. they are still trying to piece together, what exactly trump's reaction is going to look like. yes, he put out this video. but what does this look like in a larger sense. when does he go down to florida? he has to campaign events on saturday. he's going to north carolina, and to georgia. i am told by officials, none of that is going to change. so the question is, how exactly does he address. this is he going to bring this up in these speeches? is he going to give remarks on tuesday, after he goes down to miami? is he going down to miami in person? all of this is stuff that they are trying to figure out right

now. and i do want to note, my colleague elaine treene is in bedminster. they are jacked up, they are ready for this. and i do believe they -- they feel energized. they feel like this is going to give them the same boost in the polls that they saw from the manhattan indictment, the same boost in fund raising, but i will note. there are a number of people around him who are very serious, and very professional in this cycle. and they do not feel that way. the people that i have talked to who say that they are not sure that this is an ultimate positive. that the entire way that they believe that donald trump has bit when the election is by broadening his base. and, getting an indictment, in this federal investigation, is not a way to broaden his base. so, something to keep in mind is that well yes, this could in fact in fact energizes base, could bring in fundraising dollars, could boost up his poll numbers. there are still people who support donald trump, who don't

think that this is a positive when it comes to an actual 2024 election. >> yeah, we use the word ultimate, and it is the age old question about the short term versus the long term in politics. the primary versus the general election, and they are very, very different. but clearly, he feels that he needs to win the primary first, and that's who he's playing. to. >> first and foremost, primary. >> absolutely. kristen holmes, on that note. i want to bring in cnn chief congressional correspondent manu raju. manu, many of the presidents allies are rallying against this indictment. rallying on his behalf, including the speaker of the house. tell me what you're hearing. >> yeah, rushing to his defense, similar to what happened in the new york case, even after and before they had seen any details of the indictment in the new york case. before they've seen any an indictment details in this federal indictment. saying that the justice department is wrong, calling it a witch hunt, calling it a sham investigation, and vowing to use the power of the house gop

majority in their words, to hold the administration accountable. that is exactly what speaker mccarthy just said in a tweet just moments ago, going after this indictment, calling it a dark day in american history. he says that the republicans stand with president trump, against what he what mccarthy says is a quote, grave injustice. he goes on to say, house republicans will hold this brazen weaponization of power accountable. now, it's not entirely clear what he means by that, some folks on the far-right of his conference wanted to go as far as calling for a defunding, or dismantling of the justice department. that is not rhetoric that mccarthy has embraced, but they have done other things to go after investigations, including in that new york investigation, they have already gone after that and prosecutor in that case, tried to call and cut coming to just fine capitol hill to suggest that that was a politically motivated investigation. we expect the same to happen here, it's unclear exactly what it at this point but. dana, there is a serious divide within the ranks of the republican party. we have not heard anything from

senate republican leader mitch mcconnell, or his number two, john thune. mcconnell is publicly neutral in this campaign, but he wants to move past the trump era, as this john thune, who supports senator tim scott. yet to weigh in on this issue, showing the persistent divide within the party over donald trump, and also dana. -- most of them are not here until next. week so, really, the only people who are speaking out of the vote ones. a lot of them are quiet now, and waiting to see the details before they weigh in, if they weigh in at all. >> manu, thank you so much for that reporting. and we can hear the echoes in the halls. and erin, what he just read, it is from the house speaker, it is to me -- it is unconscionable for president to indict the leading candidate opposing him. that just frames it exactly the way that republicans will be doing, and not that this is something that is happening to

a former president, but to somebody who wants to be president again. making it a political, alleging that it's political. >> right, absolutely. and saying the president is doing, as opposed to the special counsel, right, who was given those powers. of course, thank you dana. so let's get straight, some reaction from former trump white house lawyer, ty cobb. i know we've talked a lot about for this. i know your contacts told me that this was probably ready. here we are, you are right what stands out to you most here? and i guess i'd like to start with, if possible, the seemingly relatively sudden switch from washington to south florida. do you have a theory on that? >> yes, i do. i think that there have been complaints made by the defense council, about some procedural issues that they view as

misconduct which, the justice department apparently does not believe rise to misconduct. there's been a lot of exchange of legal theories. there have been logistical discussions. i think it's likely that in the courts of that back and forth, that justice department has -- firmed up the evidence, and considered where the charges should actually be brought, reconsidered some of the venue issues. i think they have venue in d. c. , but i can understand that there are arguments that might delay the venue decision. and force it to go through a hearing and an appeal. and that by bringing it in florida, they have sort of bulletproof bullet proofed

themselves from that. because obviously, that's where the bulk of the activity, in terms of the unlawful possession and obstruction occurred. >> does it speed it up, and so it sounds like you're getting rid of some of the delays that will come through venue challenge and others. does it speed up enough that this could somehow get through the process before the election, by doing it in south florida? >> so that's an excellent question. i know that's on everybody's mind. i think we, as we've talked over the course the last year. this is, this is right up against the line at which it is conceivable that it could get to trial before election. i think, had they waited till september later, that would have been very difficult. but i think by, a bringing it in florida, be limiting it to seven counts, which i think is very prosecutorial, very professional, and very intelligent approach. unlike, bringing 34 charges or

however many were brought in new york. but having seven charges, seven counts tied together, blending in the unlawful possession and use of the classified documents, oh obstruction efforts that were made to prevent the archives and the justice department from receiving those documents. i think that's a smart approach, i think that also speed things up. i think, from the description that jim jim trusty gave, and i appreciate his passion on that. but from the description of what he gave. it sounds like a pretty, pretty lucid approach to in the indictment. we still don't know exactly what's in that. we hear a lot about, public interest and, the poor president not having a copy.

but the reality is, he is not entitled to a copy. nobody is entitled to a coffee copy until arraignment. i think they like to work out a certain sense where they could maybe make an agreement with the president and his counsel, to share the indictment with them ahead of time. on the condition that the presidents team wouldn't lead. it we will see how that develops over the weekend. >> all right, well, ty carbed, thank you very much. we appreciate that, and let's go straight up to our panel here in new york. ryan goodman, former special counsel to the defense department. elliott williams, scott jennings who worked with the george w. bush white house, and the former democratic congressman mondaire jones. all right, let's just start here on the legal side, and -- it's interesting, ryan, that ty cobb is saying that they doing -- ultimately prevail in washington, evaluating the pushback's. that it would be faster to do this in south florida, that speed seem to be a part of. it so he is saying that it is possible, possible, that this

could get through the system prior to the election. >> i think that's right, and before this point, if you were to ask me what is trump's strongest legal argument, i would have said venue. if they brought in d. c. , that would be the place that he could make an argument and a challenge that they brought in the wrong jurisdiction. which could also ultimately end up in the entire case being thrown. >> so the risk is it being thrown out, and even if you win, you just burned a lot of time. >> exactly. exactly. so, now they've taken it off the table. because in florida, the -- strongest legal argument that is exactly where it should be brought. there is no venue challenge that's gonna come up in bringing him in florida. >> and obviously, we know, we obviously haven't seen it, we know from jim trusty and from cnn reporting, you've got espionage to witness tampering and conspiracy, among what's reference in the summons that they got. but, interesting as ty says, the charges seem to be very specific, very buttoned up,

very tight. although when i hear, okay got witness tampering, espionage, conspiracy all in there, along with obviously potentially obstruction. that's a lot, in a few counts. >> that's a lot in a few counts. now i want to be careful and clear here. when we say espionage, we're speaking about the espionage act. it's not the cloak and dagger trench coats and sort of spying. but it is the mishandling and retention of information that could harm the defense interests of the united states. that's probably what was charged here, in that sort of specific spot. now, conspiracy is something quite concerning. because that's an indication that in order to be charged with conspiracy or convicted of, it you formed an agreement with another person to commit or break the law, and took an act in furtherance of breaking the law. there and so, there is probably one other person, at least, who came to some agreement with the former president, or acted in the direction of the president to break the law. >> all right now, i don't want to just play 20 questions, because nobody knows the answer to begin with, ryan. but that could be anybody from the person to move the boxes to

mark meadows, and what immunity he had. and we don't know who that quote on quote, conspiratorial is, and what deal was reached. but it could be anybody in that camp. gamut. >> it could be. jim trusty said something very interesting in his interview with kaitlan collins. she basically said, what about the fact that, do you know of anybody else who's been indicted. and he said, we're not aware of anybody else who's been indicted. and i have a theory, she says what's your theory. and he says, any maps of this argument as to, he doesn't seem to point to figure -- out. so that's the -- the guy is moving the boxes in and out. he said he move the boxes in and out at trump's direction. and he said, basically he's trying to make this argument that, the doj engaged in misbehavior, according to his allegations. that could have changed the allegation and that other. case that is walt nada nauta -- >> -- >> --

means he is cooperating, which would be a very big deal. >> and one more thing. another charge of this being talked about his false statements. it's not -- and that would be a false statement made to law enforcement or government official. it's not clear that the former president spoke to any law enforcement. but he might have directed somebody and try to influence the words that they provided to somebody else, which -- charged with false statement. >> -- as i said, seven charges. we can look -- at okay, that sounds like a lot in a little. but you already hear their arguments. you already see their arguments against it, desantis. saying -- >> the word of the night for both of the republican party's weaponization. you are brother seeing the republican party leadership rally around and circle the wagons around donald trump. house speaker kevin mccarthy, ron desantis, other presidential candidates, lots of members of congress. i think is going to be a tremendous amount of pressure in the u. s. house. and you're already seeing vague promises.

we are going to have been a department of justice countable. what does that look like? does that look like funding, does that look like impeaching the attorney general? and i think trump is going to want to encourage that, but this word weaponization, this is a key argument that trump is making and will continue to make. that your government is being weaponized against, you if you are a republican. >> and so, what fills the air space between now and when we actually see this indictment, which could be several days? i mean, this is what you're working to get, but this is? it >> yeah, look, i think you will continue to see allegations of weaponization's of the department of justice, by former republican comic colleagues in the house. the irony of course is, that nothing could be further from the. truth i mean, this is a department of justice that clearly isn't politically astute enough to even issue a statement, to at least get its own position out there, with respect to what it did today in terms of the indictment. and, it is ironic though, probably not surprising, that we will see at the house republicans move forward with

continued talk of defunding the fbi, and defunding the department of justice, despite having spent years now running campaigns against democrats, falsely accusing them of wanting to defund law enforcement. >> yeah the irony there. all right, dana bash, it could be amazing to think that it could be -- and maybe somehow it comes out tomorrow. or maybe we're still sitting here having the same conversation around the edges of conspiracy, or espionage, in a few days. >> it very well could be, if we don't end up seeing this until tuesday. i want to go, erin, to mar-a-lago. that is where cnn's randi kaye is. and randi kaye, there is a small crowd from supporters gathering here. what are you seeing? >> dana, they've been gathering here for the last couple of hours or so, since the news of the indictment broke. we are on the bridge, which overlooks mar-a-lago, known as southern boulevard. and this is where the protesters come, whether donald trump is here or not. as you know, he's in new jersey right now. but there is been a small group of supporters, you can see here

that have been gathering here tonight. very, very peaceful the. there is police in the area as well, making sure that it remains peaceful. i did speak to some of them earlier, and they were basically saying that they think that this indictment is only going to make the former president stronger, going to make his campaign stronger. they believe it's a witch hunt, as we know this word of the former president likes to news. use. they called it political garbage and they truly believe that this is not going to impact this his campaign, or a possible win in the election at all. now also, i should note, there are plenty of people who were driving by honking horns, yelling out their windows saying, lock him up. so not everybody here is a supporter of the former president. but, this is ground zero. we are just at the edge of mar-a-lago, this is where it all happen, this is where the 15 boxes of documents were removed. 300 documents marked as classified were removed from here. but when you speak to the these supporters of the former president about that, they don't want to hear anything about it. one of them told me in fact, they believe it was all planted. dana, back to you. randi kaye, thank you so much

for that report. and we've got much more to come on our breaking news. for the first time in u. s. history, a former president has faced federal charges. donald trump, indicted in the special counsel's classified documents investigation. stay with us. listen up, you dogs with allergic itch! today's talking lesson is just one word: apoquel. ap--o--quel. ♪ you can't teach your itchy dog to talk... ...so, talk to your vet about apoquel. apoquel is for the control of allergic itch in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs with serious infections.

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classified documents probe. and a source says, that trump has been charged with seven counts. at least one of them conspiracy. he's set to appear in miami federal courthouse on tuesday afternoon at three pm. kara scannell is in miami tonight. and kara scannell, what are you learning? and obviously, between now -- it may be until then with -- wait until then to actually have this not under seal. >> yeah, erin burnett, it's a big question of will prosecutors -- unseal this indictment between now and tuesday. and if they don't then on tuesday when he's appearing in court that might be the first time that we learn what these specific charges are, and, in the case of a lot of these indictments, they are known as speaking indictments, that will go through, in some kind of narrative form, with the prosecutors allege the former president had done the violated the law. so, there will be a lot more that we can learn once this -- but on tuesday, as we wait for that, i mean, this will be just like any other arraignment. the former president will come

in. he will self-surrender to the fbi. it will process him and then he will appear before a judge here and we asked to enter a plea in this case. now the big question also here is what will that look like here? will this be in the ceremonial courtroom? will it be in the judges who use the randomly assigned this case -- who will go to? will that be a trump appointee, and -- a number of judges in this district. will it be someone appointed by democrat. we just don't know yet how that is going to play out. but then he will make his appearance -- you know, as we saw in new york, just a few months ago, when he made that appearance in the state court, that was a big security undertaking. there were a lot of precautions that they took. but they tried to get him through the actual process, both through turning himself in and then actually going into the courtroom and going through that proceeding. they try to do that as quickly as possible, given just a big security risk that he faces by being out there and then just kind of issues that causes to

the city because of all the lockdowns in the security parameters that they take. and so that will be the next steps here, once -- we don't expect anything else to happen in court. so, the next thing will be on tuesday, and then he will come in and enter a plea to these charges. and then, you know, usually in -- and in the rain that you do get some additional discussion about what kind of discovery they have. so, sometimes you can learn a little bit something more about the evidence that they collected, how much of it is how, much they have turned over. and so all of these other little details that sometimes come out that we will be looking for on tuesday. erin burnett? >> kara scannell, thank you so. much -- it's amazing, when kara scannell is talking about that -- you just had to do that in new york. it was unprecedented. here we, are unprecedented, take two, in between that, there -- was you know, being found guilty, right? in the defamation sexual abuse e. jean carroll case -- i mean, it's pretty stunning. >> it is pretty stunning. and of course, that was on the state level and this is on the

federal level, which is a whole different ball of wax, as they say. and on that i want to bring in john miller, to talk about the secret service meeting with staff this, morning and beginning security planning for the former presidents indictment. so john miller, before we talk about the security, i should also say you are cnn's intelligence analyst and cnn chief law enforcement analyst. on the charges first, john, what is your take away from what little really that we know so far? >> well, we know it's a seven count indictment. we are told that there is a conspiracy count there. that is particularly important, because a conspiracy count means that the person charged in the case conspired with another. that could suggest, avenue as we discussed a minute ago, that someone else could be charged. or it could be suggest that someone else -- he's going to testify. that they conspired with the former president to obstruct justice, by moving hiding or otherwise shifting these documents around to avoid discovery. you know, the most likely

charge we are looking at here is title 18, u.s. code section 1924. because it speaks to the actual mechanics and component pieces of the investigation. it's about any unauthorized person who knowingly removes, with intent to retain, at an unauthorized location. those are three points of the investigation. classified documents, about the united states defense. and, we've seen other cases involving government officials with the same charges. notably, the airmen up in massachusetts, another air force suspect in florida. this seems to be the go-to charge for the moving parts of this case, dana. >> and this is the espionage act? >> this is under the espionage act. so, you have the secret service detailed that only failed out tonight that they are to basically produce their protect the, in this other district of

florida at a hearing at 3:00 on tuesday. to face these charges, this was held very closely. >> and what does that tell you, about how law enforcement, and secret service and outside law enforcement agencies are going to handle this on tuesday? >> well, the advantages, as we were just talking about earlier, it's not unprecedented. it's a drill that they've been through on a state court. this will mirror that. you get how the former president brought to a federal court. he is going to go through, what we would call an arraignment. in the federal system, it's the present meant, where he will be presented for the purposes of identification and for hearing the charges. he is going to be released on his own recognizance, and he is going to be judged as not a flight risk. but, at that proceeding, is the place where most likely they will unseal those charges. and we will get the first look at what is the breath and the story behind it. >> john miller, thank you so. much and he really now

washington, cnn chief legal analyst laura coates, legal analyst carrie cordero, senior correspondent abby philip, and former fbi deputy director andrew mccabe. thank you all for staying up late on this, another history making night. laura coates, i want to start with you. as you are sitting here sort of consuming all of this, i want to know what's going through your mind, given your legal background? >> well let's take a step back on the extraordinary nature of the fact that we have a former president being charged. but i'm not gonna get hung up on the fact that it's a former president. what i'm focused on is the conduct. that somebody previously had the authority to retain classified documents, as a person who had that legal 40, and doubled down and retained them according to what is presumed to be the willful retention of. them. there will be a lot of focus going forward on, what does that say about our country, other democracies of course have held their leaders to account. but what does it say about

america to have this moment? what would it say about our country, if we allowed laws to go unchecked? if we had a notion that people were above the law, if they no longer wear the head chief officer in the country? and so, i'm focusing on that realm. but also, i'm going back to this moment that was also extraordinary. a former presidents attorney, was allowed to testify in the grand jury. was allowed to give evidence and testimony about the -- conduct that actually underlies what we are talking about. now and i have an eye towards that. when i'm looking to figure out what evidence jack smith had, what is the evidentiary basis the allegations -- >> because it's so unusual -- for people who don't know. >> it's so unusual. >> to allow for attorney-client privilege to be breached. >> to be pierced in this way. because we want, as in president presidential privilege -- this is not this instance -- we want forthright candid conversations. we certainly want them with our attorneys.

so if an attorney is allowed to speak on the nature of -- the substance -- because the federal court has said wait, there's an exception here, it's called crime and fraud. i'm not gonna let you shield yourself, because you're an attorney to say you can't tell me anything. that was the moment i think that this became a kind of foregone conclusion. >> i just want to pick up on one thing that you said laura, at the beginning, which is that you want to look at this as a person. an american citizen, not necessarily the former president. but we all know, that this is not necessarily how they look at it. and andrew mccabe, you're the only one of this table i believe, who has experience, not necessarily with the former president, but with a very high-profile figure. and that is a presidential candidate. there has to be different lens through which you look at a case like this, because he is a former president and a candidates again. >> you know, not in the way that laura was just saying. speaking. not when it comes to examining the conduct. that lens should be the same for former president trump, or anyone else who engaged in.

this typically, it would be impossible for anyone. but for the former president who have had the sort of authority that he had. and lose that authority, and then to continue the fact pattern here who. but nevertheless, when you are investigating this alleged activity, you have to look at it through this lens of, what did this person do and, how did that conduct stack up against the law? certainly, now we're talking about a present men -- presentment about this soon to be defendant as a former president and the unique considerations that come along with transporting injuring him. but when it comes to presenting that evidence to a grand jury, and having a group of your fellow citizens sit in judgment as to what weather out or not there is probable cause to hold you accountable for a crime, you should be seen as the same as any other citizen in that

context. >> and, i didn't mean to suggest that he's gonna be held to different standards comes to the law, and to the facts and the evidence. but when it comes to approach and being really buttoned up. >> hey, there is no question, any high profile case, that you know is going to receive this level of scrutiny. you want to be perfect. you want to have every detail taken care of. we also know that being perfect in a large wide ranging fraud investigation is impossible. and over the course of this litigation, i am sure we will see arguments about things that the department of justice allegedly should have done better or have been more careful about. that happens in every single case. and the end of the day, the question is, do the prosecutors convince a jury of americans that there is, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the president trump committed those offenses. that's, at the end of the day, the only standard that matters. >> and it's not the first time that we will be asking that

question of this particular former president. i mean that's what also makes this unprecedented and historic, and probably all of the bad ways. this is a current candidate, former president, who now faces several indictments. and, many more potentially to come. it's a pattern of conduct, some of which is alleged. others, in the case of the e. jean carroll case, has been found by a jury to for him to be liable for that. but it's a pattern of conduct here that has put him in this position, so many times. that's incredibly unusual, and that's actually what really undercuts the argument from a lot of his allies, that this is all just a grand conspiracy. you know, donald trump was president once. if he wanted to bring charges against any number of his political allies, if it were so easy, he could've done it, if they're consecrated the conduct

created the environment to make that possible. i just think it's so difficult to get to that point. where on so many different issues, trump is facing real investigations, real charges, real criminal liability. and that is not going to be washed away by tweets or by political spin. the voters will ultimately decide. but we decide to take a step back and look at the fact that on documents, on sexual abuse and defamation, on the hush money case, where georgia is coming up soon, january six is also coming up. there's a range in the scope here, that is truly unprecedented. >> you know, what i keep thinking about all evening, dana is that this did not have to happen this way. this case, the fact that we are at this point as a country, the fact of the former president is now facing these charges, is 100% a self inflicted wound, by him and by his team around him. there are other cases that we can look to in the national security space, and the

mishandling of classified information. including the more recent cases of former vice president pence, where individuals make mistakes, and they mishandled information, and then they work with the government to fix it. and in some cases, it can mean that there is never a case that's actually about a criminal case that's ever brought, like the pants example, where it was just an accident. he handled it, they reported they, return it, done. or, there's been other cases, including a former senior high-ranking actual security official, where they made a mistake, they admitted it, they plead down to what is the lesser charge of what sean john miller was describing earlier, and that's section 1924 of the criminal code, unauthorized removal and retention of classified information. which is different than the set of statutes under the aspen espionage act. and, if the case gets handled, a former cia director pled guilty to a misdemeanor, faced

probation, and paid a fine. and so there was a whole range of potential ways that this could have been handled, and that this could have been resolved. and i just continue to think about the fact that it didn't have to get to like to be like this. >> it wasn't resolve this way because trump, as he has said multiple times, he still to this day does not believe that the documents belong to the government, and then he had to give them back. i mean, his refusal to even contemplate that is what has brought us to this. >> well you know i almost, think, i wonder if he really does not believe that or if there is an emboldened sense that suggests i don't have to. i have three questions for this former president. why do you take the documents? why did you keep the documents? and why do you refuse to return the document, even though it is clear that there has not been declassification, that you have the wherewithal and you knowledge about this. it's not inadvertent, according to the allegations.

and we had to see the full fulsome reporting on this. issue but let's not forget about merrick garland, the attorney general united states. jack smith is the special counsel, he has authority to make prosecutorial decisions, and declination. but in this statute, he will have to go to merrick garland, the attorney general, with this information. attorney general merrick garland has the option to either agree with the decision, or decide against that. at which point, speaker mccarthy and congress will have to be informed about that decision. so, this is not any talking point that suggests that there is somehow, for -- pretoria praetorian guard is the -- i would really doubt that -- merrick garland would look at this case and say, you know what jack smith, i will not follow your suggestions based on all that you have seen. that's going to be the next frontier of the talking point, to suggest that he's just a rubberstamp.

but the counter regulations are very. different >> all right everybody, standby, we're gonna have to take a quick break before, we're gonna be back with much more on our breaking news. former president donald trump, indicted on seven counts in the classified documents investigation. what happens next? more ahead. every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food.

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but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. >> more on our breaking news tonight. former president donald trump has been indicted in the special counsels classified documents investigation. i want to bring in a man who knows, maybe just about more than anybody about a president facing stunning legal troubles. nixon white house counsel john dean. thank you so much for joining me tonight. i kept thinking, as i knew i

was going to talk to you, about the sort of famous line, it's not the crime, it's the government. up obviously this is just an allegation here. but it's the same idea of what we were talking before the, break about mike pence and others having classified documents, and returning them, and in the case of mike pence just a week before last, him being cleared. and donald trump is facing a very different set of challenges an indictment. >> very true dana. this is a perfect example of somebody who just kept digging a hole deeper and deeper. it was really kind of surprising, but it points back

to what might have been the original intent, which is to take these documents, to keep -- handled this so far, and the question of informing donald trump and his attorneys and keeping the indictment under seal until and tuesday. what's your view on the way that they are doing, and given how high-profile this is, given how very political it is, since he is donald trump, and he is also a candidate for president? >> yes, my initial reaction was that the department, had seem to have blown it. because why did they put out an announcement of some kind, rather than let trump run with what was in the indictment? then we learned, when jim trusty was on cnn, that the indictment really has not been handed down at this point. they've received the summons, they've got to come to court next week on tuesday.

and that's when they will unsealed the indictments, at least for court purposes. and it will be official at that point. now, i don't know if they will be, i think what might be happening again is, given what happened with the search warrant, and the way trump handle that, they may be very reluctant to have a head start on this. so, he cannot re-frame and recast issues that are very clear in the indictment, which i suspect will be the case. so i think the department has handled it well. and while i treated tweeted earlier i was surprised, and not anymore. >> oh that's really interesting. let's talk about one of the charges that we know is in there from cnn reporting. and that is the conspiracy charge. what do they have to prove to get a conviction on just that one charge? one of seven i believe? >> they have to prove that there was an agreement to commit a crime, to commit

action that was criminal. and there was some step taken two words actually conducting or committing that crime. it's a very low standard, the department of justice the federal prosecutors love conspiracy counts, because a lot of the admission of evidence that might have otherwise not quite come in, and there are a very tough for the defendants to not get caught up when they are charged with this, and justice is very careful in who they name. actually, richard nixon was named as an unindicted coconspirator, so that all this tape could come in the guns to his former aides. >> john dean, thank you so much, appreciated. really interesting that you changed your view, given more information. i imagine erin, that that actually does happen in these. and it's important actually underscore, because you've been talking all night about the fact that this is just a vacuum that is being filled by the

former president and. and you have somebody like john dean who says he something initially and says, wow, the doj is not handling that right, and gets more information from donald trump's lawyer that they don't actually have the indictment, they just have a notice. and, he is now praising the doj. >> yeah right, the facts are coming in so much. it is interesting dana, as you are sitting there, we had our panel here thinking gosh, could you be in a situation where you have the front runner for the republican nomination, possibly than the nominee, under indictment for different indictments at the same time. i mean, it is incredible. just take a step back here, because you get the moment of this one, and you're covering it. and then just think about gosh, what we could possibly be walking into. i mean, it is incredible, as we are sitting here together and watching history unfold here again on this night. we take a very quick break, when we come back. much more on the story the historic indictment of former president donald trump, in the

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former president donald trump indicted on seven counts of the special counsel's classified documents investigation. my panel is back with me. let's start here on the legal side of things. ryan goodman -- so, as we are getting more information, it's starting to kind of come through here. it seems that we are going to get some of the real parameters of this pretty quickly, that we are not going to be necessarily waiting until he walks into that courthouse on tuesday morning, tuesday afternoon, sorry. >> that's right. so, as the evening progresses, we are getting more and more of the charges. and there's only seven. it's finite. but it does seem like the headliner charge is the espionage act. the words being used or retention. so it just means he's being charged for keeping the documents, that would pertain to national security and national defense information from the government. but what hasn't been said is the word dissemination, which is, in some sense, good news for the president, president trump, and that would would be

an even more egregious charge. dissemination, meaning, he somehow got into the hands of third parties. >> right. right. i guess we don't know -- we don't know, elliott. but that would be significant, because obviously that's one of the big pieces of information that we've got the past week, with the existence of a tape. where he is talking about the -- male ease -- the potential plan for an invasion of iran. and he shaking around a piece of paper, which may or may not have been that, talking to somebody and acknowledging, well, i wish i could tell you all of. it because it's classified. that, theoretically, could have been dissemination. if that had moved further, if they had moved more. but elise, from what we understand now, that may not be among the charges. >> oh, that would have been a separate federal offense. if it were an actual document, and someone saw it, a very serious federal offense, with serious penalties. here so, it seems -- >> it does not seem that that's on the table. >> it does not seem that that's on the table. >> can i just say, scott -- retention, the significance of. that you've got conspiracy, espionage, all those things. if you do not have dissemination from all

political perspective, i think your view is, right? that it makes it harder to break through the political writer we are. seeing >> you, how is thinking early, that if they had -- >> -- especially for national. >> exactly. >> but if they don't have that, you can see tonight, the circling of the wagons around him -- that's going to continue. republicans are doing this without having seen anything. they see no evidence. they see none of the documents. and so, that would probably embolden them to continue to do that. and, remember the reaction after the raid. people were saying -- this is like the beginning of a civil war. this is -- the lines are drawn. there is no going back now. that happened when the rate happened at mar-a-lago. this is going to be a continuation of that from the same people who started that, back then. and it is mind-blowing to think about. this guy is going to be on trial for his life. these things carry actual jail time possibilities and this

trial -- we've got the georgia thing hanging out, they are the new york thing, january 6th. at what point does he start to wonder, running for president -- is it my best offense or is it my worst nightmare when it comes to keeping myself out of jail? he's an elderly guy. you don't want to go to jail at that age, or any age, really. >> -- raises the questions about what this he would do in the situation. because it is very likely that he is going to be facing -- well, he is facing multiple indictments. he's already facing too. >> it could be three. it could be for. >> it's a pandora's box with this guy. and i think the fulton county d.a. has given enough of an indication to the courts that there is an indictment that is imminent i think, again, this is a really sad day for this country, in terms of any, you know, former president being indicted for anything. but i -- as i survey the