conspiring to obstruct federal investigators who wanted those documents back. a lot of firsts today. the first former president ever to surrender to federal authorities. the first former president to ever be fingerprinted by authorities. the first to go before a federal magistrate for arrest and arraignment. the first ever to face years in prison if convicted. >> yeah. and jake, of course after pleading not guilty to all counts it seemed to be back to business as usual for trump. he made a campaign-style stop at a restaurant just moments after he left the courthouse in miami's little havana, where he posed for photos with well wishers, many of whom stang him happy birthday. he also had a group literally praying over him as he was there in the restaurant of course alongside his co-defendant walt nauta. from there it was back to bedminster for a fund-raiser. >> a fund-raiser and a speech. we're not carrying that speech

live. in a moment we're going to play a short portion of it, one that gives you a look into his state of mind and how he is trying to frame his defense to his supporters. i'm joined now by new york democratic congresswoman and house oversight committee member alexandria ocasio-cortez. thanks so much for being here. first of all, i just want to -- the little havana stop, that cafe, versailles cafe, one of the reasons we're told by his folks he was there is because the cuban american people know from political persecution. and i wondered how you might interpret that and what you think of that. >> well, you know, i think it's -- it makes -- it's not a surprise. during trump's remarks he was trying to somehow pin this as some great marxist conspiracy. but the fact of the matter remains that tn individual who r. tand u.s. national security secrets, nuclear weapons locations or, you know, nuclear site locations, sensitive materials, and put our nation at risk.

and frankly this is beyond just the cuban community. the latino community writ large in the united states also has a profound sense of patriot sxmz unde patriotism and understands right from wrong. and from understanding political persecution knowing this is not it. >> and what was your reaction to this moment in history? i mean, this is -- you know, whether you love donald trump or hate donald trump, it's sad. it's a sad moment because you have a former president very credibly charged with these very serious offenses to the point that you have even individuals like his former attorney general bill barr and former u.s. attorney and governor chris christie talking about how serious these offenses are. >> i mean, beyond it just being sad, what this also represents is a very significant erosion in our systems, our institutions.

what donald trump is outlined as doing here is really defiling the position of the presidency in taking all of these materials, highly sensitive, imperilling the lives of service members, of people, of sensitive sites, sources, methods, et cetera, for what really just seems like personal use and potentially personal gain. and the motive here is something that is left to those that will be exploring this. but frankly, what this represents is a very severe compromising of our systems and our national security. and that, the implications of that for us as a country, we will not fully understand the ramifications for years to come. >> i've been asking the question of motive all day, of people who know or knew donald trump. stephanie grisham, former white house aide, said she thinks it's just like a child, and this is her words, like a child with his toys, these are mine. mine, mine, mine.

that's her view. michael cohen, former lawyer and fixer for donald trump, and obviously both these individuals have since turned on donald trump, michael cohen said he thought there was definitely nefarious intent. he has no evidence of that. but that's his knowledge of donald trump, leads him to believe. what do you think? >> well, all we have to do is look at donald trump's past behavior. and frankly, from the past legal proceedings that he has faced, this is a twice-impeached president but when we rewind and when we rewind the tape and look at donald trump's first impeachment, he used and was unafraid to leverage the power of the united states government in an attempt to engage in an extortion scheme in ukraine. he went to the ukrainian government. he and his team. and engaged in frankly what we see as a conspiracy, saying that he was willing to withhold and he was willing to hold

congressionally manndated funds hostage in order to extract a fake political story about his political opponent then, now president joe biden. and i think from that history, and you see that same individual taking troves of documents, sensitive documents about the united states, i do not think we can rule out nefarious intent. i do not think we could rule out him trying to engage in transactional behavior, whether that be political or otherwise, for himself. >> we do have now some of the sound, as i told you. we're not -- and the audience. we're not carrying his remarks live because frankly he says a lot of things that are not true and sometimes potentially dangerous. but we do have some. a small portion. so you can get a sense of his state of mind and how he might be framing his defense. i want to get your reaction to it. we're going to start of course, i just want to note, he begins

this clip we're about to show you by making unfounded claims about the charges against him, untrue and unfounded claims about the charges against him, and the people he thinks are behind it. so i just want to preface it by saying it. and at the end of the clip you're going to hear him frame what could actually be part of his defense. so here's a little clip. >> today we witnessed the most evil and heinous abuse of power in the history of our country. very sad thing to watch. a corrupt sitting president had his top political opponent arrested on fake and fabricated charges of which he and numerous other presidents would be guilty. right in the middle of a presidential election in which he is losing very badly. this is called election interference. and yet another attempt to rig and steal a presidential election. more importantly, it's a political persecution like something straight out of a

fascist or communist nation. this day will go down in infamy and joe biden will forever be remembered as not only the most corrupt president in the history of our country but perhaps even more importantly the president who together with a band of his closest thugs, misfits and marxists tried to destroy american democracy. but they will fail and we will win bigger and better than ever before. >> the espionage act has been used to go after traitors and spies. it has nothing to do with a former president legally keeping his own documents. as president the law that applies to this case is not the espionage act but very simply the presidential records act, which is not even mentioned in this ridiculous 44-page indictment. under the presidential records act, which is civil, not criminal, i had every right to

have these documents. >> okay. a lot to unpack there. i'm not going to make you fact check. but just quickly, the presidential records act, that's the defense he's going to bring. that's fine. there is no evidence that he legally kept these documents. they're not his documents. they belong to the american people. there's no evidence that joe biden had anything to do with this -- charges brought by the special counsel. the charges are not fake. the charges are not fabricated. he's not losing an election. the election hasn't started and he hasn't even gotten the presidential nomination. there's no evidence that this is int election interference. we do not live any fascist state. and in terms of destroying american democracy we know who actually tried to undo an election and it's not joe biden. it's mr. trump. that said, your response. >> you know, i think donald trump is the king of saying one thing to his supporters and doing another, doing the opposite in private. and in this circumstance one of

just the most brightest examples of that is of him today coming before his supporters and telling them i was totally aboveboard, i know that i was aboveboard, this is part of the presidential records act. but what we see in this indictment is a recording and also testimony of people -- of him telling people close to him i could have declassified this, i did not declassify this, you shouldn't look at this because it is not allowed, because this is still a secret document. so this is just trump in true form in where he says one thing to his supporters, says another thing privately, but then also insinuates that he is a victim of a system that has been developed purely for his own privilege and benefit. >> do you think -- i mean, we've

heard some clips from republicans on the hill. congressman don bacon, a veteran republican from nebraska. now, he's in a swing district, but he's been very critical. obviously chris christie has been critical. bill barr has been critical. asa hutchinson who's running against him has been critical. nikki haley made comment tng co fever?d's life at i mean, have you heard from any republicans on capitol hill? not just the mike lawlers of the world who are already like trump skeptics. but -- that's a congressman from new york for people who don't know. i know you know. but -- republican. i mean, from other republicans. are people just sick of this already? >> you know, i do think that what is happening now is also layered into a bubbling political tension in what is happening in the house. right now some of the house's most staunch extremists, who are also some of trump's most loyalist members of the house, have also ground legislating to

a halt, and there -- it seems to have been made very clear, and they have sent a direct message to speaker mccarthy that mccarthy's either going to follow their orders or they're going to shut this whole place down. and this i think has created an enormous schism that is starting to happen within house republicans. and this will absolutely exacerbate it because what is detailed in this indictment is completely indefensible on top of a conviction around rape charges that just happened out of the state of new york. and we don't even know what's happening in georgia yet. this level of misconduct, of criminality, is getting to a point where it is indefensible. and i do believe that we are approaching that point. >> you talked about the e. jean carroll rape charges. it's a civil case. he was found liable for sexual

abuse, and i think he had to pay $5 million, something along those lines. a judge just ruled that e. jean carroll could add to her complaint against him because he went after her and defamed her at that trump town hall. >> absolutely. >> calling her a wack job. what do you think of that? >> well, it also continues to convey his commitment to intimidation and to political intimidation, use of his platform toward intimidation, and to think that that would stop simply at one of his sexual assault victims is very naive. what we're seeing here as outlined in this indictment and in these documents, right now one of the things that we had to hear out of this court was that he could not contact his body person throughout this process because we have seen a pattern that suggests a tendency toward obstruction of justice. >> i don't think he can -- he's allowed to talk to him. he's not allowed to talk to him about the case. >> right.

correct. correct. >> one of the house republicans, andy biggs, he is calling this a war phase. he's a very -- obviously a trump loyalist. republican senator j.d. vance, another trump loyalist, has announced that he's going to hold all nominees to the department of justice. he's going to block them. like no votes will be allowed on them. he says indefinitely because of this indictment. i mean, is washington just going to shut down, do you think, ultimately? because you describe the schism already occurring that's stopping the house from doing its business. >> well, i do think that that is a real question that cuts at the core of a decision that the republican party is going to have to make. if they are going to try to survive as a political party in the united states, we just saw that they experienced much lower gains than they thought they would last year in the 2022

midterm elections. we are also seeing the ramifications of an extreme supreme court that has several members that were appointed by president trump. and additionally, with the erosion of the legitimacy of the court with the conduct of clarence thomas, brett kavanaugh and others, the republican party is very much at a crossroads right now. and they are going to have to decide if they are going to choose a cult of personality or this country. and that is what cuts at the core of this case. and i believe the american people are also going to have to decide if this is something that we are going to accept. and right now, you know, what is very dangerous is that donald trump is going to have this case going before a judge that was appointed during his

admini administration. if -- if he somehow is able to delay this, if he is somehow or for whatever reasons able to clinch the nomination, he will seek revenge. i believe that. and -- >> you're not the only one. chris christie said he thinks -- if trump gets elected president again his entire second term will be about revenge. >> i believe so. and what we saw during his first -- during his first term was him putting undue influence on the fbi, on the department of justice to engage in an agenda of political -- in a politically motivated agenda. we will see this really cut to the core of our democracy if it is not checked right now. >> congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, democrat of new york, good to see you. thank you so much for being here. really appreciate it. kaitlan collins, donald trump making some wild remarks. that's not unexpected, of

course. but referring to marxist thugs, all sorts of baseless conspiracies. one of the most surprising things, although maybe i should stop being surprised by this thing, is him saying that joe biden is trying to destroy american democracy. from th from the president who incited an inside rex and spent months literally trying to overturn a democratic election. >> and also ignoring of course why he was in that room today when it came to those 37 counts that he pleaded not guilty to. and also trying to turn this in part on president biden, you know, making false claims, lying about what happened with his documents investigation, kind of trying to equate the two of them. of course we know there is a special counsel also investigating that, jake. the former president is complaining tonight that biden got a nice special counsel while his, who he came face to face with today, jack smith, for the first time, he claims is not so nice.

that is just part of the many attacks you've seen from trump on jack smith, and i think that is part of why based on our reporting that we've been doing trump is having trouble adding someone to this legal team because they see the pitfalls of what happens to those who have represented him in the past, that he doesn't listen to their legal advice. and if you watch -- his speech is happening in mar -- or excuse me, in bedminster right now, thatting plays a big factor into why he has trouble getting attorneys to represent him in the courtroom. also claiming, jake, that he -- that biden is the one who says he's above the law, that he's the one who follows the law. obviously, if you read through that 49-page indictment it tells a very different story, jake. >> i mean, one of the other things that's interesting about this is when president biden came to office he had every right to dismiss the special counsel investigating the investigation into trump, durham, john durham, and he had every right to fire the u.s. attorney in delaware who was

investigating hunter biden. i'm not saying it would have been a good idea. but he could have done it. but he was cautioned to and ultimately did not. he let both men continue their jobs. the u.s. attorney in delaware is still investigating hunter biden. so this idea that joe biden puts himself above the law when given the opportunity to fire durham and to fire the u.s. attorney in delaware he didn't take is just silly on its face. >> and also that u.s. attorney that is investigating hunter biden is a trump-appointed u.s. attorney, which is not often something that you hear the former president or his allies mention. obviously, jake, a lot of this has to do with what's happening here today and his claims about this. we'll see where this investigation, where this case goes from here as he is trying to find that other attorney. jake, as you were just speaking with congresswoman ocasio-cortez

and she was giving you her take on the republican party and their view of this, up next we are going to get reaction on capitol hill from republican supporters of the former president to republican skept sxikz critics. also how the white house views all of this and what precious little president biden is saying about it. of course not compared to his predecessor, who is saying quite a lot. the first time your sales reached 100k with godaddy was also the first time your profits left you speechless. at the counter or on the go, save 20% with the lowest transaction fees

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his remarks tonight at bedminster, his club in new jersey, our cnn political analyst and "new york times" senior political correspondent and of course trump biographer maggie haberman is there and she joins us now by phone. maggie, obviously you've heard the former president's speech. we did not take it here live. what did you make of what he told his supporters compared to how he was acting when he was here in florida earlier today? >> it's interesting, kaitlan. there were two things that were striking about this speech. number one is he's going through, at least for part of it, a pretty dry recitation of what you're going to hear from him and his team, which is his claim and misstatement of the presidential records act, that he was entitled to keep these documents, that no one else has been prosecuted for doing what he did. prosecutors obviously say he took things that were among the nation's most secretive classified materials. that's one thing that was striking. but the other that was striking is his delivery.

he made such a show in miami of being seen at the restaurant versailles, which is something of a landmark in miami and, you know, mingling with people and talking to people. very low energy tonight. very flat delivery. and spent no time hanging out with the crowd or basking in their glow afterward. he turned on his heels and walked back inside his club at bedminster. and so i think this is going to be reality going forward. it's going to be him defending himself and offering up this claim that he had the right to do what he did, which again, prosecutors say is not true. but it's mixed with real anger at the situation he's facing. >> and maggie, what does that say to you about -- you know trump better than almost anyone else as you reported on him at length -- any other reporter, i should note. what does it say to you about how he's actually viewing this privately compared to that bravado and bluster we saw at the restaurant here in miami? >> what i hear, kaitlan, is it

goes up and down, that there are times where he is incredibly angry. i heard that he was really mad for the 90 minutes after that he found out, roughly around 7:00 p.m. on thursday night, that he had been indicted. and then he got it together, went to dinner. i heard he was very angry the next day when he saw the indictment. he is especially rattled by the photographs that were in the indictment. he actually referenced the photographs, some of them anyway, from the stage tonight behind the podium. but then he has moments of almost ebullience. and it's hard for people around him to tell what's genuine versus him trying to keep up as you said the bravado. more than the bravado it's also just the facade that everything is fine because that's so much of how he fights back against things. >> who did you see in the crowd tonight at bedminster? did anyone stand out to you? >> well, many people stood out. but mostly because it was such an eclectic group of people. seb gorka, who worked in the

trump white house and one of trump's loudest defenders, sort of on the fringe, on the right. ed cox, chairman of the new york republican party. bernie kerik, the former nypd commissioner. a number of different people. mike lindell, the my pillow ceo. you know, tommy tuberville, the senator who missed votes to be there tonight. but for the most part, kaitlan, those were the diehards. these were people who were asked by trump's staff to be here or who love the chance to see the former president. but there were not people who were in the administration or even in his past presidential campaign. you're looking at a very, very different motif here. >> yeah. and of course it's telling who he surrounds himself with. maggie, you say it's clear that he's determined to fight these charges obviously in the court of public opinion. a lot of questions about what his legal strategy actually in the courthouse looks like. does this remind you in any way

of how he responded to what is obviously a very different situation but also came with a lot of fallout, which was the "access hollywood" tape that came around of course last time he was running for president? >> very much so. he has basically a few moves, kaitlan, that he uses over and over again. and we saw it for the first time in his political life when the "access hollywood" tape came out. his impulse, you know, a day in was a crowd of his supporters that amassed on fifth avenue in front of trump tower was to go down and literally immerse himself in the crowd. i was there for it. it was a really striking image. and it was almost as if he was giving himself a pep talk. you know, clapping his hands together and getting himself worked up. a bit of what we saw similarly in miami today. that is the impulse, is to just sort of immerse himself in the crowd. but that's not what we saw in his speech tonight. again, this was a carefully written speech by some of his advisers because he's laying out what resembles a legal argument

but which is really about the court of public opinion. but he was deflated as he was giving it, or seemed deflated. but i do think, yes, this has real echoes. his immediate reaction on all of these moments is to surround himself with his supporters and use them both as a buoy for his emotions and also as a shield against what he's facing. >> another person he's surrounding himself with is his co-defendant, walt nauta, who just moments after they left the courthouse here behind me today they were seen together at that restaurant. obviously the judge has said they are not supposed to discuss this case except through attorneys. do you think that that is actually something that the former president will abide by? >> kaitlan, i think you know the former president as well as i do and i think you know that being told not to do something is often an impetus for him to do something, especially if it's by a person in authority. so i think this is going to be a real challenge. you know, it is invariably, if

they're talking, i bet going to be worse for walt nauta because he is the co-defendant, not a former president, and he has a very different circumstance. he also has not been arraigned yet because he did not have local counsel. he still has to go back to court in two weeks. but i think that not talking about the case with either walt nauta or witnesses who the government is expected to produce a list of to say these are people trump should not be talking directly to, only to counsel related to the case, it's going to be a herculean task to get him not to. >> we'll see what that looks like. maggie haberman from bedminster in kj new jersey at the former president's club. joining us david weinstein a former assistant u.s. attorney from the southern district of florida. and also former chief of public integrity in the justice department's south florida office. one of the perfect people to talk about all this with. we'll get back to what the former president is saying tonight in a moment, but what you saw today happening in this courthouse behind us, do you believe that's the way that

anyone else would be treated? do you think he was treated differently? >> not for a second. he was given special treatment the likes of which i've never seen before. any other defendant charged with that many violations, possessing that many top secret classified documents, then charged with obstructing justice, making false statements and having another open pending felony case would have been hard pressed for the government not to ask for detention and for that defendant to be sitting behind bars waiting to see whether or not he'd get out. this defendant was released under virtually no conditions. >> so you believe even though the way the former president and his legal team frame it, which is that they're being treated unfairly by the prosecution, by the courts here, they're actually going out of their way to accommodate him. >> absolutely. bending over backwards. the fact that he didn't get arrested friday morning where he was living in the dark hours and brought before a magistrate judge to make his initial appearance on a sealed indictment, that's what happens in a normal case. >> so when you hear what the

former president was saying tonight talking about the espionage act and how that is part of the charges that have been -- that are part of this indictment, he had this quote that was saying that it's used for spies, for traitors, but it's obviously much more expansive than that. what he's saying about it is incorrect. >> absolutely incorrect. look, it's part of a larger act, the espionage act, and it covers people who had at one time access to documents because they had clearance to have those documents. and then they took those documents from a place where they should have been under secure quarters and either held them or kept them somewhere else or shared them with other people. that's what it is alleged that he has done. it doesn't have to be a mail drop where spy vs. spy meet each other somewhere and hand over secret documents. it's the improper use and handling of classified documents. and in this case documents that were alleged to contain defense and military secrets of our country. >> and that were stored in

places -- you know, he's there at the former club, or at his club tonight where we also know he took boxes of documents up to bedminster with him. when it comes to what's next and what a trial looks like here, how fast do you think we could see a trial potentially? >> in this case it's not going to occur that quickly. in a regular case they move fast here in the southern district of florida. trial would be set in a couple of months, it would be perhaps continued a little bit. the case would be resolved in six to nine months. but here you have security clearances that are needed for his counsel. you're going to have motion practice. you're going to have motions that undoubtedly are going to end up at the 11th circuit. and requests for continuance to try and push this matter off past the november election. so in a case that could normally be resolved by march or april this one's going to drag out at least until the summer. >> and of course the question is does it happen before the 2024 election. we'll wait to see. david weinstein. of course you are the perfect person to talk about this. you've been in that courthouse many times. thank you for joining us tonight.

>> you're welcome. >> thank you for your time. also still to come, we have more on the former president's reaction to his arraignment today, a historic arraignment. what it could mean for him. that's next. ♪ old school wisdom, with a passion for what's possible. that's what you get from the morgan stanley client experience. you get listening more than talking, and a peonalized plan built on insights and innovative technology. you get grit, vision, and the creativity to guide you through a changing world. ♪ the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you.

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more reaction now to trump's reaction to his arrest and arraignment today. our panel's back. and with us now, cnn legal analyst carrie cordero and elliott williams as well as cnn special correspondent jamie gangel. john, let me start with you. trump seems in his remarks that we played little clips of more defiant than ever, and he is expected to raise at least $2

million this evening. >> i was just looking. at least six e-mails, we came out of commercial break, i stopped counting, just today raising money. they're selling hats. they're selling flags. he's writing e-mails about being besieged. and we know he's good at this. if you don't like donald trump, maybe this infuriates you. but he's very good at this. trump is sort of the bonfire of american politics. the way he keeps his people going is by constantly throwing more wood on the fire and keeping it blazing. he keeps them fired up as if they're in the fight. and the theory behind that, and his own people will admit this to you when you talk to them quietly, is if people walk away they might read the indictment or they might listen to one of his rivals, who again, might say i have long-term questions about the fbi or about two tracks of justice or how hillary clinton was handled but. read the indictment. these are his people. these are his words caught on tape. these are his aides' texts. that's how he does this. that's what's fascinating to me. we talked about this earlier. but the conversation among his rivals about what to do. because there's two

contradictory conversations going on among the other campaigns right now. one is the grownups saying we better winnow this field fast. we better winnow this field fast. we need a one on one or at least two on one race and there's ten candidates in the race. you about the other piece of it is if this trial's going to be delayed months and be after the early primary izz need to raise just enough money to hang around because i'm going to have to be around in april and may when he finally implodes. how many times have republicans had this conversation? i know, i'm not saying it's real and i'm not saying it won't be different tomorrow. but that's the two tracks in the other campaigns because they watch him at this. it's another attack on democracy. the last thing i'll say about this, if you thought the threat to democracy ended on january 6th or with the biden inauguration, you are wrong. attacking -- saying the president of the united states had him arrested? and then the other attacks earlier today on the special counsel and so on and so forth. this is -- sometimes we just roll our eyes and say it's politics or it's trump and it's not true. but it's much bigger than that. >> carrie cordero, earlier in

the show george conway went through how bad the indictment is for donald trump and how little there is in terms of the facts presented in the indictment that's even being disputed. we heard donald trump in his remarks basically arguing that the presidential records act allows him to have these documents as his, and he also said about the espionage act, and we've talked about this the other day, and you can do it again. he said the espionage act has been used to go after traitors and spies, it has nothing to do with a former president legally keeping his own documents. as president the law that applies to this case is not the espionage act but very simply the presidential records act, i had every right to have these documents. >> okay. so once he was no longer president he no longer had right to have the documents because those documents belong to the united states of america. >> even if he classifies -- >> full stop. >> even if he classified them. >> if he -- well, they were classified documents. >> right, right. >> even if he had

declassified -- >> i'm sorry, even if he had declassified them. >> which there is no evidence that he did. then they still are documents. whether classified or not. they are documents that belonged to the united states of america. so full stop. no question about it. now, with respect to whether or not he declassified them, there's no evidence that he did so. so yes, a president has authority to declassify information but there's absolutely zero evidence -- >> and you can't just do it with your mind. >> that he ever did that. there would have been some indication. there would be some person. there would be some document. there would be some evidence -- >> you have to tell someone. >> right. it goes back to the intelligence agencies. they begin the process. >> all that being said, and even with the 31 counts that are in the indictment with the documents as they're described at these high classification levels, with the pictures of the boxes strewn all over his hotel, even with all of that, had he returned them we wouldn't be here today. >> yeah. >> it is all about the fact that

he obstructed and that he willfully retained them and withheld them and continued again and again and again at every opportunity, whether it was the requests from the national archives or whether if was the justice department asking him or then it was pursuant to a subpoena, if he just would have given them back we wouldn't be here. >> george? >> yeah. i mean, and more to carrie's point, the conservatives have made a big deal about appointing people who are textualists to the bench, people would follow the statute and don't make things up and don't read things into the statute that they wish were there. well, here's what the statute says. 2202. section 2202 of the presidential records act. "the united states shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession and control of presidential records and such records shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of this chapter." and then it says that when the president -- "when the president leaves office," it says that the national archives and records administration "will take

control of the president's files and records immediately." >> is this a clear-cut case do you think, elliott? >> on this point, yes. it's not only that. it's on inauguration day the moment the next president is sworn in, all of the files wherever they are in the world, not even just in the united states, immediately become the property of the national archives and records administration. it's just a fact. it's not something that you can wish away out of existence. and then beyond that point sort of -- and to carrie's point, if he'd just given the documents back we would not have been here, as is evident with the case of mike pence, who number one, voluntarily conducted and opened up a search into his own filed and then number two, complied with all requests from the justice department and national records and archives administration once he did. had trump done any of that going back a year, i'm quite confident that he just would not have faced criminal charges. >> can we just add to that, to cover off on the espionage act point? the espionage act is big. it has more things in it than

just traditional cloak and dagger spying. it definitely covers unlawful retention of national defense information. it definitely prohibits the unlawful dissemination of national defense information, the withholding of national defense information. so even though it's called the espionage act, it doesn't mean he's been charged with spying and handing information to a foreign government. >> yeah. jamie gangel, we were talking about this during the break, which is a fox news chiron at 8:59 p.m., so about 43 minutes ago. and they are referring to joe biden, the chiron at the bottom -- if you look at the bottom of our screen it says "trump pleads not guilty to all 37 federal charges." it's just a fact. so what they had in theirs, "wannabe dictator," meaning joe biden, "speaks at the white house after having his political rival arrested." this is part of how donald trump hopes to get out of the legal

fix he's in. this. this kind of thing. >> so for the record, when i first was -- saw that banner, george conway sent me a text with it. >> you said it was fake. >> i turned right around, i said that is fake. it seemed so over the top that i thought it was unbelievable. and to that point this very illustrious panel of lawyers -- john, are you a lawyer? >> no. >> okay, you and me. the three of us. but you've all laid out the facts here, about that this belonged to the archives and that he -- if he had given them back it would have been fine. there's one problem with all of this. donald trump has convinced his supporters that that is not true. and if there's one thing donald trump is good at, it is branding. and he has said it over and over and over. >> one of the questions, though, given the fact that fox had to

just pay a $787.5 million settlement to dominion for spewing lies about the election, one wonders do they believe this? do they believe that joe biden is a wannabe dictator who just had his political rival arrested? do they actually believe that? >> who knows? they obviously don't care whether or not they put things on their air that they believe or they don't believe. that's what was shown. >> you know, having spent i guess it was six years at the justice department and four at headquarters, just to clear something up in terms of the relationship between the white house and prosecutors when cases go on, there's actually a wall between the white house and rank-and-file prosecutors. and i remember meetings where if the white house folks around you send them out or don't even invite them to headquarters -- >> is that even more so if it's a special counsel? >> the whole point behind the appointment of the special counsel was to take away this notion that it was the white house or even the attorney general who was pulling the strings on the prosecution. so this idea that merrick garland or joe biden are these puppeteers calling the shots on a prosecution, that is simply

not how it works. now, i don't know quite frankly how the trump administration operated. i can only speak to frankly the bush administration where i was a career attorney, then the obama administration where i was a political appointee. and that's how it worked every day. >> a lot more to come tonight. kaitlan. >> yeah, jake. up next we are going to more reaction to the former president's arraignment on -- from capitol hill today. and also from the white house.

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earlier tonight former vice president mike pence had some stern words for his old boss, telling the "wall street journal," "having read the indictment, these are very serious allegations and i can't defend what is alleged. ." that said, he also told the journal, "it's hard for me to believe that politics didn't play some role in this decision." of course that is pretty similar to what other republicans are responding to this >> trying to thread a very tight needle. others are still all in on the former president, even when it comes to photos like this of national security secrets that were stored in the bathroom of the ex presidents florida club. >> was that a good life for the former president to have those boxes in a bathroom? >> i don't know. is it a good picture to have

boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? a bathroom door locks. >> as somebody who's been to mar-a-lago, you just can't walk through mar-a-lago of your own accord. secret service is all over the place. there are 33 bathrooms at mar-a-lago. don't like it like it's in a random pattern guests can go into. that's not true. >> our chief congressional correspondent manu raju is live on capitol hill. manu, i'm not sure i thought i would ever hear republicans defending how secure the presidents bathrooms at mar-a-lago are, but that's exactly what we saw the house speaker doing, and also the florida republican there, byron donalds, the you just heard from. beyond that, we also know that it wasn't very secure at mar-a-lago, because they talked about how in a storage room, multiple people had access. one of the doors was often open. what are you hearing there today from members in the house, also in the senate, how they are reacting to this arraignment today? >> memories are actually relatively divided over the former president, and some are

now speaking out, the aftermath of the thursday news that the former president was going to be indicted, and after the allegations were unsealed on friday. most of the trump supporters rushed to his defense on twitter, most of the other members were gone because congress wasn't in session. the last few days had changed. i put the question directly to members about exactly the specifics of the allegations at play. i'm also -- the former president allegedly obstructing this investigation. a number of them are raising concerns, and some are indicating that they could support the former president, especially if he is convicted. >> he had a chance to return them, present them back, but he just doubled down. we can't take this lightly. >> it's obvious that what the president did was wrong. >> it's problematic, and there's a reason i'm not defending it. >> i want to find out the truth of it, if that's the truth, i would be very concerned. >> that congressman, tim

burchett, a member of -- a conservative member of the house gop conference, also telling us that he would not support trump if he were in fact convicted. i put that same question to senate republican leader mitch mcconnell earlier today, kaitlan, asking him, could you support trump if he's the nominee? given this indictment, and if he is convicted, he refused to comment. saying, i won't weigh in on any specific candidate. that is a wide golf with the house speaker, kevin mccarthy, who has in fact rushed to donald trump's defense and attack this indictment as house republicans are trying to undermine this investigation and prove what happened here. kaitlan? >> yes. manu raju, on capitol hill, thank you. the white house, meanwhile, we've heard a lot from republicans, it has been very quiet on trump's arraignment today, still declining to comment on the latest indictment. president biden, making clear earlier today, he had nothing to say on this issue, -- >> would you comment on the arrest of the former president, sir? >> no.

>> joining us, now white house great on jeremy diamond. jeremy, the question is how serious the white house is about this strategy, of silence, given that it is such a stark contrast with what former president trump is doing. >> kaitlan, so far the message of discipline seems to be sticking. you saw, there i was trying to ask the president for the fifth time that he's been asked now about the president trump's indictment and now unrest. once again, declining to comments. the white house decided long ago that this was going to be their strategy, it's going to be how they handled matters related to the department of justice, those criminal proceedings, not to interfere and not to comment. they'd also prepared for the possibility that president trump could be indicted in this documents case. they had decided long ago that and if that was happening, that president biden and his team wouldn't comment on it. we've tried to ask the white house press secretary a number of different ways about this case, and she has simply

declined to comment, pointing to the independents of the department of justice. president biden today, taking the strategy so seriously that he even made an attempt to clean up a joke. talking with the chinese president, xi jinping, the meetings together, and he quipped that he did not take those notes with him, but he returned those notes. he quickly noted that that was not about the former president. even taking pains to ensure that even a joke could be perceived as something else. >> one person that we did hear from was the first lady. she commented on this. what did she have to sly? >> first lady jill biden was at a fund-raiser last night in manhattan, and she was talking about the indictment directly. she was talking about the fact that so many republicans according to polling, and also when you look at these prominent republicans that are defending the president, appeared to be sticking with him. which he said was call it a little bit shocking that they are still sticking with him, and she said that they do not care about the indictment. that is in contrast to the presidents approach here. the white house, and also

notably, the presidents reelection campaign, which is in starting up here. and yet they have declined to comment on this. what they've also declined to do is to fund-raise off of the former presidents indictment and arrest. typically, you would look at this as a potential political gold mine for political opponents but instead, the president's political advisers have decided that the risks of fundraising off of this, the potential appearance of impropriety, fueling those republican attacks that president biden is carrying out some kind of politicized prosecution here, that the risks ultimately outweigh the potential benefits. . ultimately, they are simply relying on the split screen that we are saying, the former president, the chaos the voters are being reminded of, and the current president focused on his job. caitlin? >> jeremy diamond, thank you. jake? >> it has been a remarkable and remarkably difficult day to witness. a sad day in american history, up to and including what donald

trump had to say this evening. of course, the day is not even over. neither is the reaction to it. may >> certainly not, jake, i'm going to be back in the next hour with our colleague, abby philip, for cnn's continued special coverage of the arrest and derangement of donald trump, that is right after this. after a short break. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got yo looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ priceline ♪ meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins.

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