that was a trip. and it put me in a space of -- and this sounds very out there when i describe it -- but feeling a lot of energy from folks who have passed, loved ones who -- you know, i was in china for two and a half years, not able to leave with all the covid restrictions. so, i lost loved ones in the midst of that. a lot of folks lost covid and couldn't really properly mourn. that came to me in a very unexpected way. more than that, it was the folks we were with who had these incredible transformations that i'm excited to share this sunday. >> david culver, you're a terrific reporter. you've been to a lot of places. thank you so much. can't wait to see the report sunday night. t whole story with anderson cooper. the news continues here on earth with kaitlan collins and "cnn primetime." "cnn primetime." kaitlan? -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good evening. i'm catlin collins.

tonight, donald trump is lashing out at key figures that he put in the highest levels of his administration, including one who said he is, quote, toast, if even half of what is in the latest indictment proves to be true. >> doing it because he hates trump. i fired him. it's very simple. he knows the indictment is total bull [ bleep ]. i watched him sitting there pontificating, sometimes with other rinos who are almost as bad, like a very stupid person named john bolton, mick mulvaney who's got nothing going, absolutely nothing. you can't have people like that in our party. >> a reminder that bill barr was his attorney general. john bolton was his national security adviser. and mick mulvaney, his acting chief of staff. these are the people that trump picked to be in his white house, all as he is asking for four more years to do it all again. meanwhile, as trump's legal

troubles are multiplying, so are his 2024 rivals. another new entry over the last 24 hours, bringing this gop field that you can see here to roughly a dozen, and there are fewer than a dozen weeks to figure out how to cram all of those people potentially on a debate stage. the woman in charge of all of that here this evening, republican national committee chair, ronna mcdaniel. ronna, thank you so much for being here. when you look at that crowd and we saw the miami mayor jump in the race yesterday, is there a point in your view, where the field gets to be too crowded? >> no, it's up to the voters to decide that. we have criteria. the candidates are going to have to be at 1% in three national polls. we'll have small dollar donations. and we don't determine the field. anybody can get in, and the voters will decide who makes it to tend. >> you talked about the debate criteria. how much harder is it going to be to get on the second debate

stage? is that going to change? >> we put in the first criteria to expect some changes and incremental growth in terms of debate stage, but we haven't decided on what that's going to be yet. >> there will be some changes. what are the requirements right now to get on the first debate stage in august is to sign a loyalty pledge, vowing to support the eventual nominee. some candidates like governor asa hutchinson want that amended because it could potentially mean, in this case with the front runner right now, having to support a convicted felon. why should republicans be asked to support someone who could potentially be convicted of a felony? >> well, one we have the presumption of innocence in this country and there is no convicted felon in the republican field right now. i think this is a no-brainer, kaitlan. i think anybody who's going on the republican national committee stage to committee to get the nomination should pledge to the voters that once it's all done and the dust is settled and you've made your best case, if the voters choose someone else,

then you need to get behind who the voters chose and make sure we beat joe biden. we can't have division. we can't have people who get on the debate stage who are going to come out and say i'm not going to support the eventual nominee. we can't win without every republican and ibd pent. no, in order to get on that debate page, you should edge mr. to the voters that you're going to commit to beat biden and support the nominee the voters choose. >> when will you release the text of that pledge? will the rnc release what that loyalty pledge is going to look like? >> we have the text of it and we've been meeting with all the candidates. this is not a shock to any candidate, kaitlan. i love our field. they're all great. they're all going to be better than biden. i have respect for every person throwing their hat in the ring for president. we have met with every campaign. dave foss si has done that. and that pledge is no secret. so, we'll get that out to them.

>> okay. but do you know when? >> yeah, i don't know that it happened already by now. so, i'll take a look. very soon. >> okay. what they're referencing, of course, hutchinson and the other concern is the detailed indictment we saw last week. obviously serious national security implications in it. and i think what you said there is important. trump is innocent until proven guilty. when you look at that and you see is conduct that is alleged in that, do you believe that that's becoming of a former commander in chief and the republican front runner right now? >> what i will say, kaitlan, and i think bill barr has said this, who isn't always on president trump's side on these issues, but he has said, it feels like there's a two-tiered system of justice. if you look back at hillary clinton, she had 2,000 classified documents. 22 of them were deemed top secret. she had eight different blackberries that were never investigated by the fbi. and he's let off scot-free.

and you see a totally different standard of justice for donald trump who had seven top secret documents. what i would say is how are we getting to a place where pride p, vice president pence, hillary clinton, president trump are all leaving with classified documents. the protocols of the white house needs to change. >> i think there are concerns about classifications of emails. you referenced hillary clinton. you talked about pence and biden. they're very different circumstances than what trump is facing, given the fact that he refused to hand over the information when the government was subpoenaing him and very clearly seeking it. mike pence looks at what's in this indictment. he says, he cannot defend what is alleged here. bill barr said he would be toast in his legal term he used if even half of it is true. do you believe there are serious concerns about what's alleged about what trump did here? >> i think we haven't been able to hear from the trump defense team. i think it's way too early to jump to any conclusions when you're only hearing one side of

an indictment without hearing the defense. let's let the process play out. i will say this, kaitlan. it is very disconcerting for republican voters to continually see one system of justice for republicans and democrats. i'm going to point to the durham report. the durham report just come out. it showed the dnc and hillary clinton put forward a fake dos say that caused the mueller investigation. i think it's really upsetting because it was a house and senate investigation by republicans. it thwarted our agenda from getting done. the agenda that the american people elected republicans to do because of a dossier fabricated by the dnc and hillary clinton. where's the recourse? where's the recourse? what is their punishment for causing that to happen to our country? >> i think the concerns -- >> midterms. but why is that? >> the concerns about the dos say -- the question there -- i think the question of the dossier, we've seen republicans on capitol hill raising these allegations about the bidens that don't have any evidence to back them up.

but separately on the trump indictment itself, that's what i want to return to because i think that is where we have seen some republicans defending the former president and some saying they are concerned about the behavior and the fact that it could potentially put armed forces in harm's way, how he handled national security secrets. do you share any of those concerns? >> i haven't seen the whole process play out, and i think the presumption of innocence is very real in this country. and we need to honor that. but i do think we have a very divided country. i'm a republican on cnn saying that. i'll bet most of your viewers who may not be republican agree with me. we have an incredibly divided one tricep. one standard for hillary clinton and a different for donald trump, it doesn't help bring our country together. >> but the allegations are not the same for hillary clinton. without defending -- >> she never was investigated. >> she was investigated. >> she had a bleach bit server. she had a bleach bit. she destroyed phones.

>> but she was investigated and we very famously had the fbi -- >> not at the same level. >> -- on talking about that. isn't that because of the level of the allegations is different? >> she had 22 top secret documents. trump had 17. that in and of itself -- >> that were classified at the time. he was holding on to u.s. nuclear secrets, information about u.s. allies and weaknesses. >> he hasn't had a chance to defend himself. we know this. we know that she didn't get indicted. we know her home wasn't raided. we ho his was. we also know we have a president in joe biden who isn't addressing the american people in a time of crisis, a deeply divided country. i think a former president being indicted is a time of crisis. and to not hear from our president, to have joe biden hiding again and not bringing people together is very disconcerting. so, we'll let the process play out. but i will say, as a republican -- and i'm going to go back to the durham report -- as the head of the rnc during

the 2018 midterms, to see no recourse on the democrats for creating a fake dossier that i believe if the rnc had done that -- if i created a fake piece of intelligence about joe biden and passed it off and caused a three-year investigation and $41 million in taxpayer dollars, i believe i would have some recourse. >> that wasn't just because of the steele dossier, that was because of the actions of george pop dop papadopoulos, but we're not relitigating 2018 tonight. >> there's no consequences for democrats and there's always consequences for republicans. >> i think that's not answering -- i think that that's not answering the question about what is at the heart of this indictment. you said yourself you want to hear from the trump defense team. we will when this is in court. has the former president himself committed to doing the debates yet and signing this loyalty pledge? >> you know, we haven't had any of the candidates come in and sign the pledge yet.

we'll see if that unfolds. i expect every candidate to be on the debate stage, i think, kaitlan, i think we all agree the american people want to hear from these candidates. we want to hear how are we going to fix our broken border. how we are going to tackle fentanyl? how are we going to tackle crime rates and having that republican field debate and addressing republican voters as to how we're going to take back the white house is critical. i think they're all on the debate stage. that will be up to them to decide what tactic they think is best. >> you haven't received any assurances from the trump team that he's going to be on the debate stage? >> he has not indicated yet what he's going to do. >> what does it say about the rn, kr if he doesn't come on the debate stage and the process here? >> the rnc is critical. we set up the data. we're going to be the ground game.

they're voting. we're elected by the grass roots and we're going to be an integral part of choosing the next nominee. so, i think all these candidates will be part of dhae bait stage, i hope, but that will be part of their calculation and their campaigns go forward. >> is the gop going to have a platform in the 2024 election? they didn't have a new one written in 20 to. they just went essentially off the fact that trump was president and he was going to be the platform. will there be a republican platform for this election? >> absolutely there will be a platform. in 2020 we had some extenuating circumstances. i'm sure you'll remember our rules did not allow a virtual platform committee to meet. so, we had to revert to the 2016 platform. but the nominee will have a lot to do with that, and there will absolutely be a platform. >> will that platform include funding and support for ukraine do you believe? >> that's -- that is way too early for me to say. the delegates that are elected to the platform committee will be talking about that. but i will say this, kaitlan, yeah, we have differences of

opinion in our party. we are not group think like the democrats are. there are differences of opinion about a lot of things. but i think the biggest concern i hear from republicans is, why are we securing our southern border? why are we allowing this huge swath of people to come across our border illegally? we're allowing the cartels to make billions of dollars. we're allowing children to be human traffic. this is not good for anybody. and i think they want to see the priorities of that reflected in our platform. but we'll see what happens come 2024. >> those are all, you know, issues that i hear from republicans all the time here in washington. they want to be talking about. but lately the only thing that candidates are running for the republican nomination get asked about, especially in the last week, have been the former president's legal troubles. did they distract from what republicans actually want to be talking about? >> if you're in iowa right now, that's not what they're talking about. if you're new hampshire right now, that not what they're talking about.

i live in michigan. that's not what peechl are talking about. they're saying, hey did you see gasz is almost $4 a gallon right now. did you see that our kids still have massive deficits coming from the states that were locked down by democratic governors? do you see fentanyl? people are very concerned. that's why you're seeing such poor numbers for biden. people do not feel like our country is on the right track. average americans outside of d.c., they're saying, we need help. and that's why they're look at this republican field and really hoping that someone emerges that's going to take on joe biden and take on the white house. >> we'll see what that nominee looks like of course and what the debate stage looks like. ronna mcdaniel, thank you for your time tonight. congratulations on your show, too. >> thank you very much. we will get more reaction to those comments there, what the debate stage could look like, plus an escalator ride that changed the world. it happened on this day actually eight years ago. ahead wrrks that ride continues to take our nation and where it could be headed next.

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it was eight years ago today, hard to believe, that this happened, donald trump riding down the golden escalator at trump tower before formally announcing that he was running for president. fast forward from that moment there to everything that happened since then, crowded 2016 field, james comey, hillary clinton, robert mueller, two

impeachments, a pandemic, january 6th, and now multiple investigations, and you get to this moment. it all ties directly back to that escalator ride in a new york building bearing trump's name but is no longer his home. here with me now to talk about how this moment has brought us here, ted stuart and kirsten powers. it's hard for me to believe it's been eight years since that. and here we are still talking about loyalty pledges and trump being the nominee. obviously with a much different twist to it now as he's a twice-indicted former president. >> right. well, i mean, there's just nobody could have predicted everything that happened. if someone had written a novel or a screenplay and said this, people would have said, this is too crazy. this could never happen. i think when we think back to watching that, i can certainly remember watching that and just thinking, this is ridiculous, right? this is not -- there's no way. based on what we thought we knew about the republican party at the time. and i think we learned a lot,

obviously, during that period about exactly who the republican party was. and it was quite different than a lot of people had thought. >> having been on the cruz campaign at the time, we watched that and he thought, reality tv star starting off their presidential campaign down an escalator. clearly unconventional. no one thought it would lead to where it is today. he start his campaign, ran his campaign, went into office, and ran this country in an unconventional which was i think very divisive in many ways. and the tone and tenor of it was not what many people would expect. but what he did by starting his campaign the way he did, people that knew him all these years as a reality television star laid it to him. they didn't want him to start the campaign the way everyone else did. >> he certainly didn't. >> he didn't. and that's what endeared him to a lot of voters and supporters. people across this country that

ronna mcdaniel talked about in your interview, which was excellent, by the way, people that felt like no one was listening to them, fwhoun was speaking to them in washington, and they looked at donald trump doing things differently. and they said, he's the one that can take my voice zpak it to washington. and a lot of what he talked about in the interview is the voice of his supporters across the country. >> the moment he famously talked about mexican rapists being sent across the border. it set the tone really for his campaign and his presidency and what we saw. the fact that here we are eight years later, talking about this, he is the republican front runner. you were for ted cruz, who did sign a loyalty pledge but didn't honor it. he came out at the republican convention and did the no endorse trump as the nominee. what do you make of the fact that we're having dhon very sags that candidates don't want to sign it for a very different reason. >> that's because a lot of people are in it for personality over politics and for the party. and i think one was very wise in

the interview and moving forward to encourage not just the candidates but republican voters across the country as we need to get together. we need to rally behind one person, a united message, united front to take on whoever the democrat may be. i think the unity pledge is a great vision and a great idea. i'm not certain everyone's going to go for it. i understand asa hutchinson's reservations about potentially supporting someone who might be convicted of serious crimes. >> it's not just asa hutchinson, the former governor of arkansas, it's also chris christie saying, yeah, i'll honor it as much as trump did when he got on the stage and didn't raise his hand about supporting the nominee. >> i think it's meaning less. they're going to do what they want to do. they'll sign it to get on the stage, but they're not going to honor it unless they feel that it's going to be good for them. i'd love to say they're all just

honoring their consciences. i think some of them just think it's what's best for them. but i think people should honor their conscience. they shouldn't just get behind somebody because the rnc is behind them, if they feel like this person would be a bad president, they shouldn't be saying that they support them. >> we spoke to her about what she believes trump is going to do about the debates. he's threatening to boycott them. this is what she just said. >> you haven't received any assurances from the trump team that he's going to be on the debate stage. is that what you're saying? >> he has not indicated yet what he's going to do. >> there's a very good chance he doesn't show up. >> he's indicated more than not that he's not planning to participate in the debate. from a communications standpoint and messaging standpoint, if he's 30 to 40 points ahead in a primary, he probably shouldn't do debate from that standpoint. as we get to the general election, it's a completely

different story. look, i think the point here moving forward, these debates are so important and critical for the voters out here to hear the candidates, hear their contrast, see how they're different, see how they engage with each other. whether or not donald trump's on the stage or not, that's when we're going to start winnowing the field and helping voters make a decision on who's the best person for the party. >> we'll see if he shows up come august. thank you both for being here tonight on a friday night. >> thank you. coming up, a very important update today. a guilty verdict for the shooter who robbed 11 families of their loved ones in the tree of life massacre. a jury is now going to decide between life in prison and the death penalty. we're going to speak tie longtime member of the pittsburgh synagogue where it all happened, who knew the victims. and the snack dad. all ususing chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save g goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out...

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today, a unanimous decision, guilty in the deadliest anti-semitic attack on u.s. soil to ever happen. robert bowers massacred 11 worshippers at the tree of life synagogue. today he was found guilty of 60 charges. he stormed the synagogue, where people were praying. he targeted them because they were jewish. today's verdict came at a cost, of course, one pennsylvania state lawmaker putting it this way. >> one by one, innocent people recounted the worst days of their lives, the worst minutes of their lives, worse than anything the rest of us have ever known. let us remember that the

survivors reopened these wounds for us, for humanity, because there has to be a record. the work to hold back hateful ideologies and violence stands on history. they told their stories. they recorded history. now every one of us must grapple with that story. >> he's talking about the testimony there, as the prosecution ultimately called 60 witnesses over three incredibly emotional weeks of testimony. the last witness was andrea. she told the court, quote, i saw my arm get blown open in two places and my right hand. the pain was the worst pain i ever felt. it looked shredded. he described seeing her 97-year-old mother, who was shot in the face, dying next to her. she said, quote, i knew she wasn't going to survive. i kiss mid fingers and touched my fingers to her skin. i cried out, mommy. i'm joined now by jeff sullivan,

who knew some of the people killed in that tree of life massacre. i imagine it has been incredibly difficult to hear the details of this tragedy all over again throughout this trial. but that was also so important to getting the verdict that they received today. >> yeah, i mean, i think, you know, the congressman said it well. it's a chance to record history so that everybody can hear exactly what happened in pain staking detail. it's really hard to hear. you know, i heard andrea's testimony. just listening to you repeat it. i've known andrea for a long time. her brother, allen, was my basketball coach. we attended synagogue together for many years. i knew mrs. mallenger really well. >> i was there right after this happened, and rose's son was -- it was just this community, you know, the community is such a closely knit one. in the light of this verdict,

when you walk into a synagogue this sabbath, do you think it will feel differently? >> i think there's some closure for sure. i don't know if it will feel differently. i think part of it -- you know, going to synagogue has a new meaning for me at least anyway, which is, you know, every time i go and every time i pray, i recognize that this is you are moment in history. as jews, we've heard the stories, and it's part of our heritage. this isn't the first time this has happened to us. it's the biggest one that happened here in the united states and i think that's part of what's shocking. but it's sort of like it's happening in our time and in many cases i just feel like when i go to synagogue i'm very much a part of that history now for having experienced this personally. i wasn't there that day. but certainly i know exactly where i was. and i remember living through it with my family. you know, it was highly emotional and difficult. >> yeah. ewe grew up at the tree of life

synagogue. and i know that you knew the victims here and were close to cecil and david, the two brothers who everyone says they were just basically inseparable. on a day like this, how do you remember them? >> oh, man, i mean, there's not a day that goes by that i don't think about cecil and david. they were so much a part of our community growing up. and just, you know, their presence. you know, i would say cecil and david were just -- they were good people. genuinely good. and like in the sense that i don't think they actually know what evil was. and so, you know, the fact that this happened to them is just -- and the nine other folks -- just because they were jewish, just because they went to synagogue that morning is very difficult. it leaves a hole in your heart. it does. but it also -- at least for me -- has motivated me to go out and do good things, right? every time i do something good

consciously, i try to do one extra good thing a day for the last five years in memory of those because honestly, all 11 people, they were good people. they did good things. so, the world is missing their good acts because of this. so, i think it's incumbent upon me and all of us to do good things and extra good things to make up for the fact that their lives were cut short by this tremendous tragedy. >> that's one of the loveliest things i've ever heard, that you're trying to make up for the good they can't do by you doing those good acts. jeff solomon, i know this is a tough thing to talk about and it's incredibly personal, but thank you for joining us tonight. >> thanks for covering this story and for continuing to help us make sure that the 11 lives weren't lost in vain. and we get to talk about them and every time we talk about them, it's as if they're here. so, thank you for that. >> absolutely. and as we mentioned here before we go, we want to pause to remember all the 11 lives lost

in that attack. joyce fineberg, a widowed grandmother. dr. richard godfried. rose mallen ger, spry and full of life. dr. ren wits, who treated early hiv patients. the inseparable brothers, cecil -- daniel p stein, who was just enjoying retirement. irving younger who went to greet congregates with a smile. and melvin, who was always in a good mood and full of jokes. may they forever rest in peace. ♪ ♪ ♪ get 2.9% apr for 36 months plus $1,500 purchase allowance on a 2023 xt5

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special counsel jack smith's team is pushing for a court order to limit what former president trump and his attorneys can say publicly about some of the documents and evidence in the case. this was an expected step. it's a procedural one. but investigators could also have a reason to be worried about what he could potentially share. look no further than the former president's truth social page today and what he posted. >> bill barr, a disgruntled

former employee and very weak person and a very, very lazy attorney general, was totally ineffective. >> let's discuss the legal and national security risk of trump taking to social media with what he learned about this case. here with me tonight, jemel -- the national security institute at george mason, as well as cnn legal and national security analyst, carrie cordero. it's not the surprise that jack smith is asking the judge to do this. but do they have a reason to be concerned that trump could potentially share what they've learned, what they're sharing with their testimony. >> there's a lot of witness testimony that's going to go into this case. there's ongoing investigations of others involved. if any of that gets out, it could make those investigations harder to pursue. and donald trump has a penchant for getting out there talking about anything and everything that comes to his mind. so, it's no surprise they've

asked for this protective order. the question becomes, will the judge be able to enforce it if it starts being violated. >> he speaks frequently about this. he speaks freequently about everything. he's going after jack smith nonstop. why he made the government going after the people he put in top levels of government is this is what they said about their view. >> if half of it is true, he's toast. it's a very detailed indictment. and it's very, very damning. >> i suppose we could all make mistakes and give them to the wrong place, but when somebody identifies that, you've got to turn them in. if the allegations are true, some of these were pretty serious, important documents. >> if he has anything like what the compliant, what the report alleges -- and of course the government will have to prove it -- then he has committed very serious crimes. >> what do you make of that compared to, you know, for

example, we hear from ronna mcdaniel, who was saying, yeah, i want to wait and see what their defense is. >> these are all people who had national security responsibilities when they were in government, including in the trump administration. and every single one of them knows that if they saw a case like this come through the justice department when they were in government and senior leadership positions, they each absolutely would have supported the justice department going forward with the prosecution based on the nature of the documents that were mishandled, based on the obstructive conduct that took place. they know that, so they're being honest in their assessment. >> they are asking judge cannon for this order. she has gotten a lot of scrutiny. what's your sense of how she will do? judg >> she had rulings people

disagreed with in matters before her, reversed, came back down, she implemented it. she can handle the case perfectly effectively in her position. >> can i ask about about something. jim trusty withdrew from the lawsuit the former president has against cnn actually citing irreconcilable differences. which stood out with a few people i spoke with today saying, you wouldn't normally put a reason in a civil case like that. >> the former president has trouble keeping his lawyers. trusty had withdrawn right after you interviewed him, kaitlan. >> 12 hours later. >> in the classified documents case because he was on talking about the indictment and then the indictment turned out to be much different than what he had described on our air. so, it is a difficult circumstance for the former president that he can't keep his lawyers. who knows whether we'll learn the actual reasons, what actually was the specific

reason. i find it unusual for someone to go this far with a client and then right after their indicted withdraw from the criminal case and then for whatever then that probably, i would guess, led to his not being able to have a functional relationship with his client in the civil case. >> it's just remarkable to see where we are because todd blanche, who is now the top attorney on this team, he hasn't dealt with this case at all. we'll see if he adds a third attorney. thank you both for being here to talk about the implications here and what this looks like going forward. up next, donald trump's use of documents to show off stands in stark contrast to another man in the news today. in 1971 exposed lies by multiple presidents about america's involvement in vietnam and plans to deploy u.s. troops. else berg died today of pancreatic cancer at the age of 92, his family says. the disclosure of roughly 7,000 pages of pentagon documents led

to a landmark supreme court case upholding the first amendment. on a personal level, it led to an all-out effort by the nixon white house to discredit him, something you can hear clearly on the white house tapes of nixon directing the message that he wants delivered to the fbi director, j. edgar hoover. >> we've got to keep our eye on the main ball. we've got to get this. >> if you remember the case went all the way up to jury deliberations only to then be tossed out by the judge due to a real weaponization of executive power. we're talking illegal wiretapping, a break in at the former psychiatrist office, and president nixon's aide offering the judge a job as fbi director. ahead in the news today, the murder of george floyd prompted an extensive two-year federal probe of policing in minneapolis. and today the u.s. attorney general announced the findings of that investigation. and they are scathing.

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irrevocable impact on the minneapolis community, on our country, and on the world. george floyd should be alive today. >> that murder more than three years ago led to a massive justice department review of policing in minneapolis. today, attorney general merrick garland there announced the findings of a two-year investigation. among them, systemic abuses by the minneapolis police department, like unlawful use of force, racial discrimination, first amendment violations, and discrimination against people with behavioral health disabilities. garland claims that the patterns and practices his department observed made what happened to george floyd possible. the biggest question now is how did these findings lead to change, can they lead to change? joining us now is former police commissioner chief ramsey. thank you for being here tonight. i do think that is the big picture question. i wonder, do you think it could lead to lasting change?

>> well, i mean, i certainly hope so. but, you know, we say that every time these things happen. i do think that, you know, the consent decree that will be put in place in minneapolis will certainly help. i've certainly worked with the justice department in the past. it does make a difference. but it takes takes more than ju consent decree. it takes strong leadership, transformational leadership at all levels in an organization. you look at minneapolis. they have serious systemic issues in that department, cultural issues in that department, that have to be addressed. and it's not going to be fixed overnight. it's going to take time and a lot of effort on the part of everyone, not just the police, but the community, the city itself, everyone working together >> on the consent decree, which my understanding now that is

it's basically agreement to get an agreement. when you talk about how those work, your time in washington, philadelphia, how does it help? what is it about it that is useful, do you believe? >> well, you know, when i was in washington, d.c. back in 1998, i actually asked the justice department to come in and take a look at our department, you're po our policies, our training, our use of force, everything. i'm told that was the first time anyone asked the justice department to come in. and we entered into a memorandum of agreement which is the same as a consent decree minus a court. it was just an agreement between the department, the city, and the department of justice. it made a huge difference. they brought in subject matter experts, they went through all our policies, all our training, they assured everything was up to standard as it should be. and it also put the city in a position where they had to provide the funding i needed to upgrade technology, upgrade training, upgrade all those things that needed to be done in

the department. in philly, we went with a collaborative reform, they call it, again, a partnership with doj. made a tremendous difference in our ability to be able to turn the department around and get it on track to where it needed to be. so it plays a role, a critical role, but it's also important to have a strong judge that oversees the consent decree like they do in baltimore, for an example. keep everybody's feet to the fire. keep the process moving forward. there are a lot of moving pieces, but it does make a difference. >> we'll see what that consent decree looks like here. chief ramsay, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you. more perspective on this systemic abuse listed in this scathing report. we have the former president and ceo of the naacp, cornell william brooks. he's also a professor at the harvard kennedy school of government. thank you for being here tonight. >> good to be with you. >> great to have you here. watching attorney general mar

band laying this out in this press conference, one of the most chilling parts to me was talking about derek chauvin, the officer here, how he had a history of this kind of behavior. >> that's right, that's right. >> of breaking these protocols, using excessive force, in multiple incidents. >> that's right. >> when others were there to watch. almost textbook of what we saw. what does it say to you that made it sound like it could have been preventible if only there had been the proper us tells in place? >> that's precisely it. it's no a matter of having bad actors, it's a matter of having bad actors in a culture of bad policing. nerd, we have police officers who leech cookie crumbs of cruelty. they leave traces of bad behavior over months or weeks, over years. and so it's not a matter of going after the bad apples, we need to go after the bad bushel. and so that means the use of consent decrees. it also means police departments and police chiefs calling on the justice department, agreeing to enter into content decrees.

in other words this law which allows the justice department to use these voluntary consent decrees goes back over 30 years. and this administration, the biden administration, is literally resurrecting, redoes dated the use of consent decrees when they were literally not used by the trump administration at all. and so this is critically important. but we need to do more. why? because we have 18,000 police departments, 19,000 jurisdictions, over 50 states. we can't use consent decrees everywhere. >> i'm so glad you said that. listening to garland today, one thing he did go out of his way to say, he said, we observed many mpd officers who did their difficult work with professionalism, with courage, with respect. taking that into account, looking at the bigger picture, do you have concerns, speaking of those other departments, that there are more minneapoliss out there? >> i definitely have more concerns. more importantly, people all across this country -- remember, when george floyd was killed, 26 million americans across 550

jurisdictions took to the streets. so the whole country is concerned. so we need the george floyd act to pass out of congress. because we need more tools -- >> which it doesn't seem like it will. >> but it has to. it has to, because here's the thing. we want to gather at this table not just to talk about the next george floyd or the last george floyd, but talk about policing that ensures public safety, including people being safe from the police. >> when you talk about that, that moment, it was just this watershed moment. >> that's right. >> in the nation of how people responded. defund the police was a pretty big rallying cry at the time. you look now at how people view it. we've seen the polling that shows support for it has dropped significantly in that time. you can see here -- >> that's right. >> -- what it looked like summer 2020, what it looks like now. >> that's right. >> what's the force behind that? >> i think many people in this country have been presented a false choice. a faustian choice between being

safe from police or safe from crime. when, in fact, you can have both. it's not a matter of defunding the police and nothing. it's a matter of funding those things which do work and declining to fund those things which don't work and are, in fact, dangerous. we can do both in this country. and the police departments, there are police departments doing that. >> it's not just one choice. cornell william brooks, thank you. >> good to be with you. >> great to have your perspective on this, thank you. thank you for joining us. "who's talking to chris wallace" with special guest arnold schwarzenegger and the actor andy garcia up next. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nirette reduces cravings

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