maybe a gap in the regulatory space if you do dives in international borders, it's quite possible that the titan might actually be the catalyst for more regulation within the submersibles field or sub-z field, just like we have it in space. as you know, i'm going to space next year. but in order to have a rocket, you need to have it certified and testing and testing and testing. you can't just fly up with it like that. so, maybe this subsea space is moving to a more regulated space like the space arenas. >> i appreciate it. thank you so much. that's it for us. "cnn prime time" with kaitlan collins starts now. hey, anderson. you arrived there on the scene just as we learned that there were no survivors here, that all five on board had died. there have obviously been this huge international search underway. what have you heard from people on the ground?

>> i think there's a real sense of sadness and a somberness here obviously. i mean, this is a maritime community. people have been very closely following this obviously all week. this is where the ship these explorers left from -- you know, it's just a really somber, sad feeling. and i think, you know -- i think there was hope. people held on to hope. and to hear that extinguished, you know, late this afternoon, it's a difficult day. >> yeah. even as they had realized, you know, as the days went on that it had become more unlikely. but when it comes to what we heard about those five pieces of massive debris, are there any chances, experts believe they will be able to recover that from the ocean floor? >> yeah, i think it really depends on kind of who is involved in that and who would actually fund that. you know, i was talking to somebody earlier, a maritime

expert in this. and you know, it's not like with the faa, who, you know, are routinely investigate plane crashes. somebody would need to fund an investigation to bring up some of these pieces. and it's not clear exactly who would be behind that. but obviously there are a lot of people who would like to know exactly what happened, particularly with this kind of carbon composite material. so, it's possible. but it's going to be expensive. it's going to take time. they do have the rov still that's going to be capable of going down and looking at the debris field. but the coast guard wasn't clear or they wouldn't say how long they'll continue with that rov exploring the depth of the ocean in that area to try to find out more. >> i was so struck by what james cameron, who obviously is an expert on the titanic, but also when it comes to these submersibles, said earlier to you when he said, he would have never taken a risk like this one

without those rigorous safety checks, especially with customers who were not just going to explore. they were these paying customers going down, talking about the risk they took with this specific vessel. >> yeah. it's interesting because he built, he designed and built a experimental submersible just for himself and went three times deeper than the 13,000 feet that the titanic is at. and he didn't go through the maritime safety protocols for that because, in his words, it was an experimental craft. and, you know, people who make that argument believe that the traditional maritime protocols really are not -- haven't caught up with the experimental nature of some of these crafts. but the difference is he said he would not have brought a passenger in that vehicle with him. he would not have taken responsibility for that. and he found that sort of unconscionable. >> anderson, thank you. ahead for us tonight, our

conversation with the cofounder of oceangate, the company, of course, that our guests started with the late stockton rush. first, though, the latest information we have on this tragedy, including reporting that a network of undersea navy sensors actually picked up sounds that were consistent with an implosion about the time that contact was first lost with the titan on sunday. jason carroll joins us now. jason, what more can you tell us about that, the navy possibly picking up either sounds of an implosion or an explosion and how that factored into what has happened over the last four days. >> well, it's certainly one of the most intriguing developments that surfaced later on today. the navy indicating -- of course, some of the supporting coming to us from cnn's own oren liebermann. basically what happened, kaitlan, is on sunday -- and you remember sunday was the day that the titan took its fatal -- what ended up being its fatal dive --

early in the morning on sunday. but on that very same day, the navy detected acoustic signatures based on the sonar devices that they had placed within the ocean. and they had that information. they turned that information over to officials who ended up conducting the search. so, it was determined, though, that that acoustic signature that the navy had found, it was -- it couldn't be determined exactly what it was. so, the decision was made to continue the search. one official saying, any chance at saving a life is worth the mission. but certainly this is going to be a question that a lot of people are going to be looking at going forward simply because if the navy had this type of acoustic signature, again, we know what they eventually decided about that acoustic

signature. if they had that information, there's the question of why is massive search, why is effort was put into this, why is information wasn't made more readily available. >> and how we're just learning of it. when it comes to now that they did find these five major pieces of debris, as the coast guard described them, on the ocean floor, do they have a better sense of what went wrong here? >> well, that is going ato be a key part of this investigation. again, they're calling it a catastrophic implosion, an implosion that took place sometime after it made its decent. you remember it was, again, on sunday. the descent took about an hour and 4r5 minutes for it to get beneath, below the surface. at that point lost communication with the surface ship. so, that is going to be a big conversation with the investigation going forward, a big part of the investigation in terms of determining exactly what happened. earlier today out here in boston, we heard from the coast

guard's rear admiral. we also heard from experts, deep sea diving experts, the rear admiral explaining in very specific detail what that rover, what that remote investigated vehicle that was down on the ocean floor, exactly what it found early this morning. >> this morning, an rov, or remote operated vehicle, from the vessel "horizon arctic" discovered the tail cone of the titan submersible approximately 1,600 feet from the bow of the titanic on the sea floor. the rov subsequently found additional debris. in consultation with experts from within the unified command, the debris is consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber.

>> and kaitlan, also following that, a deep sea expert also came to the mic and had explained that rov, again, these remotely operated vehicles, just to let you know, they're also equipped with cameras and robotic arms. those rovs are still on the ocean floor. they are still going to continue searching, trying to map that area around the debris field, to see if there's anything else that can be found. >> yeah. and good questions about, you know, the cost of trying to recover that debris if that's what they do. we're hearing from the families of those who were lost today. but is the company itself, oceangate, have they said anything about what happened, the determination that no one on board survived? >> yeah, they certainly have. and in fact, oceangate's cofounder, i just want to read part of the statement here that he put out. he said, these men were true

explorers who shared a distinct spirit of adventure and a deep passion for exploring and protecting the world's oceans. our hearts are with their families during this tragic time. we grieve the loss of life and joy they brought to everyone they know. i mean, you know, there's going to be, again, a lot of back and forth in terms of what information was shared, the types of resources that were used. but, you know, i think you heard anderson touch on this. those in the maritime community really taking this very, very hard, as these men were explorers. they were dedicated to the world that they lived in. so, this is something that is going to be hitting a lot of people very, very hard. >> just a devastating outcome. jason carroll, thank you. throughout all of this, we have been talking to the oceanographer and deep water search expert, david gallo. his friend, p.h., is one of the five lives who was lost aboard the titan. and david joins us tonight.

david, i first want to say, i'm so sorry, because we have been talking every day since the titan disappeared, and especially not just about what's happening, but about your friend p.h. our condolences, obviously. we talked last night, you still had hope this was a search and rescue mission, not just a recovery effort. what went through your head today when you heard they had found debris on the ocean floor? >> kaitlan, i hoped because we had to have hope. that was pretty clear that -- i think i may have said that somewhere along that the simplest conclusion was right in front of us, that there had been an implosion. we knew about the sound -- wasn't confirmed. we knew about the loss of communication. it's hard to explain any other way because the vessel was in mid-water. it wasn't snagged on anything. that was the easy, obvious conclusion in the beginning. but we had to have hope. and as i said many times, miracles do happen.

maybe not this time, but they do. so, we had to have hope right up until the very end. and it was difficult. but i think that's what you've got to do. you can't just give up in the beginning. you've just got to go until you know for sure. >> and you talked about the sounds that were heard. the u.s. navy says they detected, quote, an anomaly consistent with an implosion or an explosion in the general vicinity of where the titan was operating when those communications that you were referencing were lost. when you hear that -- and that is something they heard -- was it clear that this was something that happened has they were in this descent very quickly on. >> yeah, kaitlan. that was a very big boom, a lot of energy there, when a hull that size collapses. it just fit too well with the time and communications and the two things come together in a way that -- with the navy, a credible source, saying we not

only hear a sound but it's an implosion, which they could tell. those two pieces are -- you've got to put them together and say this must be the same event. >> and does that make you think there was a design flaw with this? i mean, when you hear that that happened that quickly after they started this dive on sunday, what does it tell you about that? >> i'm not an engineer. but i mean, p.h., who is as good as anyone, he's not an engineer either. but when he says, this is safe, this vehicle is a safe vehicle, i have to go with p.h. there's going to be a lot of people commenting about how this was a bad idea, bad design, and tested. almost everyone i know that have been around as long as i have in the ocean game has taken some risk. they didn't end up like this, fortunately. but, so i can't comment. it's not a vehicle i would have gotten into. it's just not my kind of thing

to get into a tube-like vehicle. i do wonder about that too. this is a tube. most submarines that i know about are a spear. and a sphere, when it's under compression, is pretty strong. but a tube is a bit different. i think all that is going to come out in the coming weeks. it's going to get ugly at times, but we do need to get to the truth of what happened here. >> what do you mean by that? just as there are questions raised by that. i'm obviously not an engineer either. people are raising questions about it. what do you mean? what do you think we could learn about this? >> well, was it a design flaw to begin with? was this just a bad idea that somehow people let go. i hear many, many people -- probably nine out of ten -- said i would never get in that submarine. so, you know, was it really a serious design flaw? was stockton, you know, an inn innovator, adventurer, and was taking a calculated risk?

or was it just one of those things. the oceans, just because you pass every test and get every stamp there is to have doesn't mean you're going to have a perfectly safe dive. oceans are full of surprises. it's a hostile place to be. somewhere in between there something that could have happened to any submarine or this was a fundamental design flaw that's going to be the close or closely to the truth about what happened in this case. >> your friend, p.h., had been on more than 35 dives to the wreckage of the titanic. you talked about his experience. he loved going there. we heard from james cameron, the director of the titanic diver himself. he described him as a legendary submersible dive pilot. we're showing the photo now of the two of you from 2010 in newfoundland in st. john's. as you at that and think back on this, what are you going to remember the most about p.h.? >> oh, boy, there's so much.

i mean, we've talked, this family at the company we, rms titanicing, about how much we're going to miss him. he was a pain in a butt. as i said, he was as comfortable on the deck of a ship in a hurricane as he was in a parisian cafe. always had a twinkle in his eye and a smirk. always up to trouble. we've lost an incredible explorer. marine exploration has no lack of egos, and p.h. was aside from all that. he's not a person that wrote books. he's not a person that made movies, starred in documentaries. he just did what he did for the love of what he was doing. and that's something i'm going to miss too. >> and given clearly he had such a love for the titanic and to be able to go down there, to do this as many times as he did,

dozens of times, what does that say to you? >> there's something about this, something poetic in a way that he's there now. you know, he loved that -- he knew that place better than any other place. it's his favorite place on the sea floor. working that debris field beneath him was what we're putting all of our effort into, those artifacts, preserving the legacy of titanic. and now he's there. so, there's all sorts -- all that kind of stuff is going to be running through my mind. it's going to be tough for me, certainly tough for all the loved ones and family members of the other four people. but i haven't begun to process that. and i know other people in our laboratory are all feeling the same way. there's still that bit of shock, also that bit of acceptance because this could have happened. we expected something like this to happen sometime. so, we just have to get through it and move on in his honor to finish the work he began.

>> well, david, we're thinking of all of you, of all of your coworkers, everyone who knew p.h. and you for joining us every night to talk about this and for joining us tonight. of course our condolences for the loss of p.h. >> thank you. thank you, kaitlan. >> absolutely. up next, we're going to speak with the cofounder of oceangate and what his thoughts are, learning about this. also later tonight, we'll have an update for you on presidential politics and the seemingly always growing republican field. it's grown again today, as another former congressman, will hurd, has joined the 2024 race. he'll tell us why next.

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or a deceased or disabled relative. also, if you hold a claim or interest in endo, the deadline to object to the potential sale of endo's assets is july 7, 2023. for more information visit endoclaims.com as more is being understood about what failed on the titan submersible, investigators will be able to address whether the design choices going into it and the way it was developed contributed to the sub's implosion. perspective now from guillermo sunline. he met stockton rush in 2008. they cofounded oceangate the next year. guillermo left oceangate before the titan vessel began testing,

but he does have a minority ownership stake in the company. guillermo, thank you for joining us tonight. i want to start with your friend, stockton rush, who is among those confirmed lost today. when you met him, what was your first impression of him? what do you want people to remember about him? >> i think for me, he was probably one of the most intelligent people i'd ever met, very curious, very driven, very talented, and very committed to exploration and a passion for learning more about the oceans in a way to expand humanities understanding of the ocean. but also for humanity to be able to preserve the ocean. >> i know you just talked to him just two weeks ago. does anything from that conversation stand out as you look back on it? >> no. i know he was -- as always, as every year when oceangate does the science expeditions to the

titanic, he gets very excited about it. he's very excited about the team, the operations, and the mission specialists who would be joining his crew, the scientists who were going to be on board. it's always exciting to be able to go somewhere no one's been before to gather as much data and help the scientific community understand more about what's going on down there with the wreck of the titanic. >> you worked -- you were at oceangate almost four year, which was before the titan was created, but as these other submersibles were being produced. we heard from coast guard officials said what happened was this catastrophic implosion was the term they used. what would have caused this, in your view? >> well, first of all, anyone who operates in the deep ocean understands that there's a lot of pressure, especially at that depth, at 3,800 meters. whether it's humans inside a

submersible or even the rovs that they were using during the search and rescue operations, you're subject to that kind of pressure, there's always a risk of catastrophic implosion. it's something that we know about. it's something that we plan for, plan against. and it's just a known risk. we take -- the community takes this into account when designing the submersible, when testing the submersibles, and when operating the submersibles. >> you mentioned stockton being risk-averse, as you said. red flags had been raised in recent years about this submersible specifically, about the titan and its design. leaders in the industry had actually warned about what they said were potentially catastrophic problems. they said that the company did not follow the safety procedures that others had. do you think this should have been handled differently? >> well, i think we have to keep in mind that titan was the

product of at least a 12-year, maybe more, technology development program, went through several different phases. there were a lot of people involved in the design and build of the submersible, including folks at nasa, university of washington's applied physics lab, boeing. a lot of people had a hand in this, all providing their expertise in every aspect of the sub, including the rigorous testing program that it went through. and of course keeping in mind that it's been operating these science expeditions to the titanic for a few years now. so, i wasn't involved in the development of this sub because i left the company since then, but i can't imagine what more they could have done in the development of the sub. >> i should note boeing has said, you know, they weren't part of the development. the university of washington has also said they had this grant initially, but only a small portion of it actually happened

before the project essentially stopped. i mean, what are your thoughts reflecting on this about what this looks like going forward? what is the future for a company like oceangate? >> well, i think for -- not just for oceangate, but for the entire ocean exploration community, what we always do when things like this happen is we wait for the team to collect data and to make determination of what they believe occurred. and then we derive lessons from it. and we build that into future exploration programs. and exploration in general will continue going forward. it's the best way of honoring the crew and preserving their legacy. >> guillermo, thank you for joining us tonight. and we are so sorry for your loss. >> thank you. just ahead, what titanic director and deep sea explorer james cameron has to say about the parallels between that

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in the last hour, james cameron, of course the famous director of "the titanic," but who is also an expert in submersibles and himself has

dived dozens of times to the actual titanic wreckage, told anderson cooper about the striking similarities that he sees between the sinking of the titanic and the oceangate expedition, and how there were obvious risks that were overlooked. >> i think there's a great, almost surreal irony here, which is titanic sank because the captain took it full steam into an ice field at night on a moonless night with very poor visibility, after he had been repeatedly been warned by telegram, by radio, during the day that that was ahead of him. i think we're also seeing a parallel here with unheeded warnings about a sub that was not certified, where the entire deep subcommunity -- not the entire community, but a lot of them wrote a letter to

oceangate, the company, and said, we believe this could lead to catastrophe. >> with me now is richard wheat, friend of hamish harding, who was on board that titanic-bound submersible today. i want to talk about what james cameron said, and i know you know his expertise here. we talked last night about the hope you still had. what went through your mind when you heard today from the coast guard? >> it's been surreal for so many of his friends at the explorers club because this is playing out in a very public way. i think all of us almost universally have been on so many chat strands with different people that they think about the family. so, i didn't know the other four men, but i know that their families are going through something that is just rocking their world. and i think that grief is a very universal emotion and that whether your father is a fireman or a soldier in the ukraine or a migrant out at sea, in your world, you know, it's everything. and so with hamish, how do you

tell his two sons that superman died when superman's your father? >> yeah. and one of his sons was earlier talking about how just what a special person he was and how they made this cross country trip when they thought he was going to miss his graduation. when you heard from james cameron, talking about the risks and the parallels between the titanic and this submersible, do you think that this is something that could have been avoided if there were enhanced safety measures? what's your sense of history? >> well, the obvious answer is yes, right, anything. but, you know w, when the challenger went up and had that explosion, could you have guessed it was the o-rings? i think so in the evolution of humans, and i think in the exploration community, yes, there's definitely grief on there. but, you know, next week people will detach themselves emotionally from the individuals and sort of assess the situation. the aviation community has done

well. every time there's an accident, they look and how can we do it better, build it better? one of your guests mentioned when the titanic went down -- i think it was dave gallo -- that that brought about so many regulations that were, you know, not considered up until that point. and so you know, with any disast disaster, whether it's covid or this particular thing, if you don't come out of that disaster or accident knowing more and being better as a society, then you have failed. >> and we'll see if regulations do change. hamish harding was your friend. >> yeah, he was a lot of people's friends. he was very popular. a certain irony that prime minister modi was in washington today because one factoid about hamish was that he was responsible with one of our esteemed explorers, dr. lauren marker, of cheetah conservation, of bringing child cheetahs and

reintroducing them to india. it was on modi's birthday. explorers have always had the ability to have detente when politics had failed. it was scientists that wanted to exchange information. so, hamish is really part of that great tradition. and, you know, there's so many things when a friend dies, stupid little things, or hugging someone on the summit of a mountain. i guess, you know, what i think about most is the circle of people. he was a pied piper. you know, his -- when we climbed kilimanjaro together, his son was 15. he brought a whole bunch of friends along that, and he brought other friends from other countries there. and he revelled in them enjoying the experience. and, you know, he was an intellectual guy and certainly had an insatiable curiosity for things. he wanted to share it. i think while it's unfortunate for his son to miss their father, he's laid the groundwork

for them being, you know, really tremendous men themselves. >> that's really lovely. he sounds like such an adventurer. i know it's not easy to come on and talk about, so thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> sure. thank you. up next, of course we will remember the lives that were lost, all five today. we're going to get an update on this date of the presidential race, as the crowded gop primary field just got another contender added to its mix. i will be joined by the newest candidate, former texas congressman, will hurd. okay... i'll work onon that. the queen sleep numberer 360 2 smart bed is now only $899. plus, 48-month f financing on all smart beds. shop now onlnly at sleep number my name is joshua florence, and one thing i learned being a firefighter is plan ahead. you don't know what you're but at the end of the day, you know you have a teamehind you that can help you. not havingo worry about the future makes it possible to make the present as best as it can be for everybody.

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the republican presidential field just got even bigger than it already was. a 12th candidate, by our count, has already joined the race. former texas congressman, little hurd former texas congressman will hurd joins the race. congratulations. you are joining a crowded field. how do you pull it off? >> the way you pull it off -- and within minutes of me announcing, donald trump and the dnc were attacking me, which is a sign they think i'm dangerous. the thing i've learned my entire time as an adult is the republican party is supposed to be the big ten party. but unfortunately right now, we're stuck in these echo chambers and we're always preaching to the choir. we have to grow the choir if

we're going to be successful in november. and that's the path. it's hard. it's going to be difficult for a dark horse candidate, like me, but there's a path in the fact that 77% of americans don't vote in primaries. one of the big reasons is that they don't like the candidates that are in there. and people are not talking about the issues that we should be talking about. so, i'm going to do what i did in the 23rd when nobody thought a black republican could win in a 72% latino district. i'm going to talk about issues people care about. >> do you think you'll get on the debate stage to talk about those issues? >> it depends what the rules are. the bottom line is this. i've taken one pledge and that's when i put my hand on the heart to pledge allegiance to the flag. i've taken one oath, asked to defend the constitution of america. and i've taken one vow, to my amazing, beautiful life. and i won't be signing any kind of pledges, and i don't think parties should be trying to rig who should be on a debate stage. >> so, you're not going to sign

the pledge that you will support the candidate, whoever the candidate is, including potentially donald trump. >> that's right. and look, donald trump is not going to sign that pledge either. and part of it was designed to put him in that place. so, look, i am not in the business of lying to the american people in order to get what i want, and i'm not going to support donald trump. so, i can't honestly say i'm going to sign something even if he may or may not be the nominee. >> are you calling on the rnc to amend that pledge, to take away the loyalty pledge? >> look, the rnc can do whatever the rnc wants to do. but i don't think political parties should be trying to rig that process of who's on the stage. >> and you clearly think they're trying to tip the scale. you're a former cia officer. as you know, trump is accused of taking information related to the u.s. nuclear programs, our defense capabilities, weapons capabilities. if what is alleged is true, do

you think he betrayed the nation? >> 100% he did. and to me, it's absolutely outrageous that he knew what he had in those documents. he knew the level of sensitivity. and, yes, you know, you are innocent until proven guilty. but if those allegations are true, it is slapping the men and women who put themselves in harm's way every single night in order to keep us safe, it's a slap in their face because the leader of the free world should be willing to protect those secrets. because if they got in the wrong hands, people would -- lives would be lost. and what we still haven't heard from donald trump is why -- he said the other night, i had t-shirts and shoes in those boxes, right? that's outrageous. what also did he do to protect those documents at his properties? what did he do to vet his employees or people that came to the club and determine whether

or not they were being targeted from our adversaries. we know the russians and the chinese, what they do to try to influence and gain information. and this would be a -- it had been a target-rich environment. donald trump hasn't announced -- what has he done in order to protect those? >> republicans are using those 37 counts against him to attack the justice department and the fbi. are they wrong to do that here? >> all of this stuff is -- i won't say it's nonsense. it's just crazy. this is why the american public is frustrated with donald trump and joe biden. if you care about the boxes in mar-a-lago, you should also care about what hunter biden is doing. if you care about, you know, whether or not donald trump has protected secrets, you should also care about the durham investigation. and this is the frustration that the american people have. and this is why a majority of americans do not want either joe biden or donald trump -- >> but you acknowledge there's differences in the hunter biden

stuff. >> sure. >> you can see the difference in that and holding on to nuclear information at mar-a-lago. >> of course. and he was the leader of the free world, right? and you have a higher expectation, so there's no question. but also in this time, what i would like doj to do is show a level of transparency because there is an erosion of trust between the american people and many of our institutions. and when you have something like this, i think we need to see a higher level of transparency to meet this. but let me be clear, if one of those counts is accurate, it's a problem. and because donald trump is dealing with this baggage and worried about, is he going to potentially spend the rest of his life in prison, guess what he's not doing? thinking about the future of our country. thinking about how -- >> sounds like you think he should drop out. >> you know, donald trump needs to be beaten in a republican primary, right? and that's what we should -- that's what i'm planning on doing, and that's one of the reasons i got in the race, because we have generational

defining challenges that we have to face with. and we shouldn't be having to debate whether or not he keeps classified secrets in the lou, which you shouldn't, by the way. and this is the problem and this is why americans are frustrating. and guess who is loving all this happening. our adversaries. they love the fact that we're fighting with one another. they love the fact they can go to their allies and be like, see, those people can't get democracy right. how can you trust them? work with us. that's continuing to erode our position in the world that affects every american. that's the problem. and this is why we need to make sure that we're having common sense in these very complicated times. >> will hurd, newest gop candidate, we'll be spending a lot of time talking you. thank you for joining us in studio tonight. up next, we have a cnn exclusive interview with former president barack obama, his

thoughts on democracy. what the former president had to say about this 2024 election but also the war in ukraine. our heritage is ingrained in our skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spirit with us. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy. but you best believe, you can't take the italy out of an alfa romeo.

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learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. in just a few minutes, 10 pm, cnn will air an exclusive interview with former president barack obama, he sat down with christiane amanpour to discuss a range of topics, the election and the war in ukraine, here's a clip from the interview. >> and goals, and challenges for the democrats, starting to primary him etc., but what i would like to know is, many say the policies and legislators, and wins, and and the company

firm. and 32% of black voters, edify something that he has done to specifically make their lives better. how would you advise him to connect in a reelection? >> i think joe biden is an extraordinary job, some difficult times. and any serious, primary challenge i don't think, of the gets unified. a lot of talk, you remember when he was ray sanders, the huge split, between a progressive democrats and more centrist democrats, the truth is, partly because those divisions have been bridged, i think what's true in american politics, until you get 2 campaigns, people are not paying much attention, people

gone through a difficult time because of covid in the pandemic, and the lockdowns, because of inflation, primarily as a result of the war in ukraine and rising energy prices is well as supply chain issues. people have memories, things got more expensive and gas was more expense, and haven't been paying as much attention. and lower it has been in decades, unemployment, and president biden to make those arguments, in a immediate environment that is so cluttered, hard to break through, and when i ran for reelection in 2012, my poll numbers were not that great and we ended up winning comfortably. part of that was just that we

started campaigning, the message out. the policy. and that irritated me a little bit. i think he's done a good job. that's what they are going to conclude about joe biden as well. >> when russia began the legal second invasion of ukraine, i believe you said that democracy is a clarion call, democracies are getting flabby and feckless, where does ukraine stand in your view in the fight to preserve democracy?>> i think it is vital. it is interesting. before left office, i gave speeches not is here in athens but hamburg, and london, and one of the arguments i made, is don't take for granted the extraordinary achievement of the european union and the fact that a continent that was wracked by war, and bloodshed for centuries, was now is

prosperous and peaceful as any in history. and then now we have seen the first war on european soil, in recent memory, and i think it was a wake-up call to europe, and a wake-up call to the western democracies run the world. that the old ways of thinking, might makes right and big countries can do what they want to small countries, people cannot independently determine their futures, that those forces have to be confronted, watching the ukrainians themselves, with such courage and trade re-fight back, that reminded europe of who they were, and i've been impressed by the degree to which in not easy circumstances, europe has stood up and provided the aid that was necessary.

i think the biden administration has very deftly managed maintaining that alliance to support ukraine. and i believe the stakes are high, to send a message to someone like putin, that they are not going to be able to just willy-nilly determine the borders of other countries. >> joining me now, obviously when obama was president, russia had illegally annexed it, did not provide ukraine the lethal weapons and i understand you asked about that what it is you say -- what did he say? >> i asked him about didn't he think he and his other allies like angela merkel, had not put enough redlines around who tend not confronted him enough after the first invasion of 2014. and he essentially said 2020 is

hindsight, he said we dealt with russia as it was then in ukraine as it is now and with the tools that we had, he wasn't really going there but he does absolutely believe that ukraine is fundamental to this global battle to preserve democracy. it's very interesting, here we are in the spectacular ancient city, birthplace of democracy, he came with the obama foundation with a lot of young people through their training and mentoring, to try to struggle to protect democracy in the future and right now, around the world, democracy and tuitions that he says are really creaky and a lot of the meeting reform, not just around the world but in the united states as well. >> thank you, that was a great interview.>> thank you. coming up, we will remember the five lives lost aboard the titan submersible.

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we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch.

in 2009, a stated mission of axis to the deep ocean, a 50- year-old pilot, hamish harding, making headlines in 19 part of a group breaking the world record for circumnavigating the globe over both poles, 48-year- old british pakistani billionaire and his 19-year-old son, suleman and shahzada dawood, a university student in glasgow, 77-year-old legendary french diver, paul- henry nargeolet, he had made dozens of dives to the side of the titanic, we are thinking for all of those who knew them and their families. the cnn