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alison camerota. welcome to cnn tonight. the coast guard said that a catastrophic implosion killed with five passengers on board that submersible that was headed to the wreck of the titanic. we are learning tonight that the navy picked up the sound of an implosion on an underwater listening system on sunday, just hours after the sub lost communications. so why did the search go on for four more days? we have got a live report from the pentagon, coming up. we will break down everything we know tonight about the victims on the ill-fated journey and what went wrong. plus, you just heard christiane amanpour's exclusive interview with former president obama and tonight we have got reaction to what he said about the indictment of donald trump. we also will examine about what he said about his former vice president, joe biden, so stick around for that. let's begin with news of the titanic submersible. cnn's jason carroll is live in boston where some of the coast guard searchers were based and

oren liebermann is at the pentagon for us. so, oren, you are getting new information about this new top secret at the time, the navy system that detected the implosion very soon after the sob lost communication. so what do we know tonight? >> that is right, a senior navy official tells us that the navy picked up a sound or acoustic signature that was likely, or could have been an implosion or explosion at about the time the titan submersible went missing and asked about the location where it went missing. according to that senior navy official, the navy then passed that information on to the incident commander and it was then used to refine and narrow down the search area, an incredibly wide area as we have learned over the last couple of days. so why did it not and the search immediately? this is a crucial question, especially when it was picked up on sunday. that was because the navy official says the sound itself was not definitive, and they could not say for certain what it was. because there were lives at stake here this search did not

automatically become a recovery or salvage and remain a search and rescue effort over the course of the next several days. after the navy analysts had a chance to look at this and tried to figure out what it was. these analysts also looked at the other sound that had been picked up, for example the banging noise that we saw over the last several days. officials say that that banging noise was likely natural life, or simply a sound or noise coming from the other ships and vessels that was responding to the search area. of course, the crucial question goes back to the sound that was picked up on sunday that we now know was the implosion of the titan submersible. that sound, again, detected at about the time and location that the titans went missing. but, because it was not definitive, alison, it did not immediately end the surge and that served continued over several days. the navy using this top secret system of essentially sensors that are able to pick up on sounds or acoustic signatures,

and they're able to use these different sensors to triangulate exactly where this was and allow them to narrow in on a search so that when he remotely operated vehicle finally got down to the bottom there, it was fairly quickly able to find the debris field. >> thank you for that oren. jason, did the coast guard ever mention -- they obviously were out searching, there are so many vessels, so much manpower, did they talk about that they had been alerted that there had been the sound of an explosion days earlier? >> no, not during any of the briefings that we attended. obviously if that had happened that would be something that we would have reported. but it seems very clear that, as oren had reported since this acoustic signature was deemed to not be definitive they simply carried on with what was a search and rescue mission. the reason being that if there is any chance that someone might be alive to go on ahead

and do that, the outstanding question that i think a lot of us have here on the ground after learning about this recent report now, alison, it is one particular point and that is the coast guard has made it abundantly clear through all of this that they have been in close communication, close contact with the family members. that makes one wonder, did anyone then inform the family members very privately about what the navy had discovered and if so one can imagine the rollercoaster of emotions that these poor families were dealing with. first having to deal with that and then probably, in all likelihood, hearing about these reports of banging noises which also, it turned out, being not true and then, finally today, getting that word, the official word from the coast guard that this remote operating vehicle, this rov had gone down to the surface this morning and come across the debris. that is the question that i think a lot of folks are

wondering on this end. what were the families told and, if so, what rollercoaster of emotions it must of been for them for the past 48 hours or so. >> jason what's the latest on recovery efforts? >> that is something that they have spoken about here in boston and at coast guard headquarters. they talked about those remote operating vehicles, those rov, they are actually still going to be down there on the seabed near the titanic they are going to be mapping out that location near the debris field, they are going to continue to map out that area to see if there is any chance, alison, if they can come across any other wreckage, any other evidence of what happened down there. but of course we've also got word that they are going to be pulling back on some of their other resources within the next 24 hours or so. >> jason, oren, thank you both very much for the latest from the pentagon and boston. here with me tonight i have

christine dennison who plans and runs expeditions like that of the tightening, tim taylor in expert in deepwater searches, we also have underwater forensic expert rhonda maniece. so, tim and christine, james cameron, famous director obviously of the epic titanic film, says that he knew about the explosion noise on sunday and he started calling his circle and they started to be able to mentally prepare. it sounds like there were people who knew that that was a bad sign. do you have questions about why the search, with all of these resources and manpower and energy and money, went on for so many days? >> i will tell you one thing, talking to engineers who have seen this machine, this submersible, they utilize, my understanding, a glass sphere in the compartment for electronics and equipment. the glass sphere is really good

tool for keeping these electronics in place, but it is full of air and it can implode. it is basically a bomb sitting on the back of their housing. no rov or submarine group uses them. i'll take it one step further, no submarine will go through a -- they're used in all sorts of beacons and bullies and oceans that are unmanned because if it blows up, it is unmanned. no operator of a submersible will go near a sphere to do work on it because if it blows up, it is a small bomb. >> that's what you think happened? >> when you're talking about the navy sound, if they cannot determine what it is, was at the sphere that blue, are they still intact, or did the sphere blow and blow up and damaged their housing and that is what caused them to blow? or do they implode on the main housing? there is a forensic study where

the guest might be able to weigh in on that, but -- >> they couldn't be sure exactly what the explosion sound was. >> this design, they use that, no one else uses that and this is a manned submersible, and this is another thing they use with carbon fiber, which they thought was cutting edge and they have been what did them in. >> now we are hearing about so many people who raised safety questions about the manufacturing of this. what are your questions? >> i saw the interview with james cameron earlier and i think it was just so exact and precise and hear it coming from an expert like him who has firsthand experience, it is very valuable and it is very telling that within the community, which is a very small community, there have been issues and a lot of red flags for years. that this was an experimental saab, that passengers should not have been exposed to it going on this, and that it was

a catastrophe waiting to happen, which unfortunately it has. now our efforts are not just on recovery but we have families and we have so much information that we really need to delve into and the questions that we all have from the first day, from the timing. we have heard so many different stories, so many different sources tell me that they heard there was a distress call, there was a final paying and the timing was not right. now we are hearing about the navy and the transparency at this point, where we cannot help them, it is done, is what we need to do and answer questions for the sake of the families because they are in tremendous pain. >> understood. ron, here often called in to consult on underwater forensic investigations. where would you start with this one? >> well, i think i would start exactly where they are starting and with what they are doing currently. so they have got two sides here that they are going to have to map. they're going to have to you soon, which uses acoustic waves

and it is really very detailed 3d mapping of those areas. as i understand, there is two sides, a larger sight and smaller site. they will map those and then recover the debris that they can and anything that is large enough that they can recover they will. so the first thing that they have to do is map the site and collect as much data as a possible and mapping it is the way to do it. it is very, very detailed and that will give them information in addition to what they can salvage to put this investigation together. >> and rhonda you went on a previous expedition, as i understand it with oceangate and stockton rush who is now one of the deceased but was the ceo behind oceangate. so what were your impressions? there are so many questions now about whether corners were cut, it segura. what were your impressions?

>> i went on a different expedition, it was an earlier version of the sub called cyclops. it was on the -- wreck, which is 250 feet, a vast difference between 12,500 feet and 250 feet. my job there was as the rov pilot and i brought redundant systems and parts. my job was that, in case something happened with that system, i can put rovs in the water and assist in a search and rescue operation. so that was a much different project and i felt that there were a lot of redundancy in that, it was planned in case something happened. in this situation it is much, much different. it is a different system and we are talking about considerably deeper depths. >> i want to play something that stockton rush said in 2021

about the materials that he was using, the plexiglass, acrylic, and why he felt confident about it. >> it is acrylic, plexiglass. and it is seven inches thick. it weighs about 80 pounds. and when we go to the titanic it will squeeze in about three quarters of an inch. the acrylic is great because it squeezes before it cracks or fails, it starts to crackle and so you get a warning if it is going to fail. >> so tim and christine you heard him there, he is justifying why he's doing something different than what the industry does and he is saying there is a warning before it fails. >> go ahead. >> his whole premise was that the industry does not valve, this industry evolves but it evolves at a pace that is safe and tested. lithium ion batteries, they use them now. ten years ago they did not. they cost a lot of money, but

they have to be certified, inspected. it is a self regulating industry, but it has not had an accident in 50 years and he was a renegade and he was warned. he went out, not only did he do carbon fiber, he did a glass fear, and then acrylics. not changing one thing, but changing everything, there needs to be some responsibility here. >> we have to go, do you have any last thoughts christine? >> no, just that we should keep the families close to our hearts and that we get transparency, and we find out what happened and how it took place. >> thank you both very much, ronda thank you for your expertise it's interesting to talk to you this evening. we've got much more on catastrophic implosion of the titan submersible and the five people on board. next, the tragic history of the titanic and why it still fascinates us 111 years later. hear what james cameron says about the eerie parallels between the titan sob and the titanic.

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the discovery of the -- confirming everyone's worst fears tonight. the mission to see the wreck of the titanic had a tragic ending. cnn's tom foreman is at the magic wall to explain some things for us. tom, what we found today? >> what was found was what they needed to find know what had happened, really. they found this part first, this details cover back here. that was the first thing they came up with. they say the second thing was this, this titanium knows cap that contains a window that he was talking in that video. then they found the back kept back here. as soon as they found this, they knew that everyone had perished because this is

nothing but a tiny alien tube here, without a cap on either and that's the end of it because there is 5000 pounds of pressure for every square inch back there. knowing that also, based on the time when they stopped getting the communications from the people on board, now they match that up with the sound signature that you mentioned the navy recorded and you get closer to knowing that this probably happened somewhere around this depths, around two and a half miles, some are down this area is where it would've happened and the debris landed out here. the titanic off the bow of the titanic, it's two parts, one is about half mile away, the bow up in this area. so all of that, what did they find? they found really conclusive evidence quickly that everyone had passed away in that explosive moment recorded by the navy. >> tom, what is the plan for recovering those things and the rest if there is any more debris? >> they are going to be doing a lot of work with these rovers,

as we heard. they are going to try to get them down there as you they can pick up more and more things, get photographs as you mentioned before. very careful mapping of everything there and that is because, obviously there are huge concerns for the families with respect to the people who have passed and everything, but from an engineering standpoint they need to get as close as they can be getting as many pieces as they can to figure out what exactly went wrong. was it the seal here or was it the seal here or was it that window upfront here? did something like that give way and maybe the debris, if you get enough of it, and put it all back together, even if you've got to do some virtually through photographs, maybe it can tell you what actually went wrong instead of what we think went wrong. at this step, remember, you could have a pinhole problem and that could cause a systemic failure and everything goes to pieces there. the sad truth of it is that they are going to be gathering all of this evidence, truly so

close to the titanic itself, the thing that had drawn people down there, the titanic which had been sitting there for more than a century now, more than 1500 dead on that ship. i listen. >> tom, thank you for explaining all of that it is really helpful tonight. so the tragedy of the titan submersible is now forever tied to the historic catastrophe of the titanic. and tonight, james cameron, the director of the epic movie, talks about the eerie parallels. >> i think that there is a great, almost surreal irony here, which is titanic site because the captain took it full steam into an ice field at night on a moonless night, which very poor visibility after he had been repeatedly warned by telegram and radio, during the day that that was what was ahead of him. and so i think that we are also seeing a parallel here with unheeded warnings about a sub

that was not certified, where the entire deep submerges community, not the entire community, but a large number of them got together to write a letter to oceangate, the company, and said that we believe that this could lead to catastrophe. >> i am back now with tim taylor, christine anderson. what do you think about james cameron is saying there? it was hubris that is the parallel. again, i know tonight are people are grieving and we're being respectful, but that is the point i think he's making their. >> that is true. >> because, basically it is your feeling that stockton rush, who is the head of oceangate, was always pushing the envelope. use pushing the boundaries, that is what he was known for. >> i think he was believing his own hype sometimes and you want to make so many changes, from my perspective, looking at this and not too bad mouthed the deceased here, but he was warned by a lot of people. he did not take those warnings, and the people that he took

believed him and that is the next step in this catastrophe is that they thought they were safe or safer. they know the risk, everybody knows the risk, but there was an element here of danger for them that they were not aware of. >> they did sign a release. they did sign a release that mentioned that death was possible. i hear what you are saying, they had to suspend disbelief that it was really gonna be catastrophic. >> there is no third party agency verifying that. there is no going to the competition, they didn't go and ask. >> i think that's a mentioned the word of, that they -- that is an element of any kind of extreme adventure. however, if you are a client and you do not know what to ask you will not ask. you do not think about the ideas that they had -- >> it doesn't occur to you. fiber glass, how it is different than whatever else.

>> carbon fiber doesn't hold up like this. >> hold on a minute, we're joined now by a titanic historian, craig thank you so much for being here. i do not know if you could just hear there that james cameron talking about what he sees as the eraser malaria teas now knowing that the titan, the submersible, was going down because they were lovers of the titanic and the titanic lore and history and without that is their final resting place. >> you know, today the titanic took five more victims to add to the list of those who perished. you know, there is something that distinguishes the titanic from many other seat is astors. it was a ship that was practically unsinkable and it sank, and it sank, of all times, on its maiden voyage. and the captain went down with the ship. the van played until the end it was a microcosm of society,

there are class structures on board the ship, there is cowardice, heroism on board that ship. so it really distinguishes it and what we have here, for the last four days, was not merely a missing submersible, it was a missing submersible connected to the titanic and that is where the passion was. it was totally different than anything else and that is why everyone woke up, the past four days, having to turn the television on and to see what was happening with respect to the rescue. while there are some parallels the titanic was in a class of its own. everything the titanic touched became very important to everyone because of the passion for the ship and the 22 stories that are out there that have been told through countless books, magazines, plays, films, et cetera. this is a very sad day for the titanic community and i think the rest of the world. i knew paul-henri nargeolet, who is on that voyage and he

was a part of our family and that was the titanic family. now he was gone and it is a very sad loss for us. >> we're sorry for you loss. craig, thank you for explaining all of that. we feel the lore of the titanic still 111 years later. great to talk to you, thank you for being here. >> thank you, take care. >> up next, former president of barack obama speaking to cnn exclusively about race in america, about the indictment of donald trump, and president biden as he runs for reelection.

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tonight an exclusive interview

with barack obama, christiane amanpour sat down with him in athens to get his thoughts on the state of democracy and the 2024 election. they also talked about the recent criticism of his comments on race from gop presidential candidates senator tim scott and nikki haley. he declined to respond to them, but said this about race in america. >> i think race has always been the faultline in america. life in american politics, that is not original to me, i think any observer of america would say that. i am, by the way, that is not historically been a one-sided, partisan issue. my favorite president, abraham lincoln, he did an awful lot to advance the cause of freedom and conversely the democratic party was where the dixiecrats resisted civil rights and

progress for years and imposed jim crow. so it is something that america has had to grapple with for centuries. i think that we have made real progress and, you know, although i was always skeptical that my election somehow signified a post racial america, if you look at any speech that i made throughout my presidency i was always somebody who reminded the country of the progress that was possible, that was my brand. that is part of the hope and change thing. but, what i have also always said about hope was that it can be blind hope. it cannot be a willful ignorance to our history. we reckon with our history, that is how we then get better. >> let's bring in our panel. we have seen a reporter for the route jessica washington, cnn senior political analyst john

avlon, republican strategist jason osborne, and cnn senior legal analyst at leoni. great to have you all here tonight. so jessica, does obama, do obama, nikki haley, and tim scott c. race in america differently? is that what the debate is here, is it systemic or not systemic? >> to a certain extent. i think that you hear tim scott saying let's not talk about this and that is how we are going to come together. obama is really saying that we have to talk about it to come together. you are hearing to people who are saying that we have to make this better, we have to have conversations about race that are not so toxic in the society. at the same time, what obama is saying is that we both have a history of racism and we are also currently dealing with that aftermath, currently dealing with the aftermath of race in our society and into a deal is that we are never going to have a kumbaya moment that people like tim scott would like us to have the second. >> tim scott from and his speech talked about how his

grandfather and south carolina, in the early part of the 20th century, dealt with jim crow racism, discrimination. >> i think he said he had to get off the sidewalk delight white pedestrians -- >> absolutely, which was a factor of that era. it's not that tim scott is ignoring that, but the emphasis is clearly from tim scott's perspective on where we are and where we are going. not coincidentally related to the fact that he's trying to win a republican primary. so he is saying let's not focus on the history, easy acknowledging it though and he deserves credit for that. there is not as much a gap, put aside tim scott's recent comments about obama, which i think are not consistent with his general tone of optimism. i think both of them are dealing with the past, but obama people was a little bit more balanced and tim scott is saying let's focus on how much progress we made and where we're going. >> i would take it a step further, and i agree with what you are saying there. but i think he is acknowledging that, despite the past, look what i have been able to

accomplish. and look at what all these other people have been able to accomplish. not only nationwide, but in my area. the mayor in his town, in south carolina, i think he is saying that we are not making a lot of progress on this and, to your point, we do not need to necessarily focus so much on the history, but focus on the fact that people have overcome all of these obstacles, but there are still so many more that we have to overcome in order for our country to move forward. >> i do not here is much that, that is where a lot of the doubt is. >> early in his presidency, barack obama didn't want to be known as the race president, he was rescind that until he gave his big speech in philadelphia at the constitution museum, where he took the issue on much more headlong. i think it is refreshing. one thing you always do is talk about the progress that we have made. he never says that all problems are solved, but i think it's good for everyone to be reminded about the progress that we have made and think that former president obama has always been very effective at

delivering that message. >> amanpour also asked him about the upcoming presidential race, and particular early i think why his former vice president, president biden now, why the poll numbers are so anemic. so here is that. >> i think what is true in american politics generally is that until you get two campaigns, people are not paying much attention. people come through difficult time because of covid and the pandemic and lockdowns, because of inflation, primarily the result of both the war in ukraine and rising energy prices as well as supply chain issues. and so people have memories that, eggs got more expensive and gas was more expensive. and they have not been paying as much attention to the fact that, for example, the african-american unemployment rate is lower than it has been in decades. the campaign will allow president biden to make those

arguments and i think that, in a media environment that is so cluttered, it is hard to breakthrough in till you get to an election. >> jason, do you think that when biden start campaigning things will turn around? >> i do agree with him on that standpoint, polls right now are very fluid and i think they're going to continue to go up and down until biden gets on the road and starts having to defend some of the things that he is done, we're not going to see real numbers. i think we mentioned this the other day that, at this point in the cycle in 2015 or 2011, rudy giuliani was in the league. and so after rudy became, and then herman cain, and so polls are very fluid. i do think that biden does have a lot to make up for and i think one thing that is interesting is that, to obama's point about inflation and gas prices, when there are really high at the beginning of last year and everybody thought the republicans were going to sweep the house, when the prices started coming down it is when people started to paying

attention to the campaigns. and they realized, wait a minute, gas prices are kind of low right now. they forgot that they were really low two years prior, but the economy drives the campaign and the economy drives the voters to the polls. >> michele bachmann, herman cain. >> i will say that you conflated to republican primary cycles there, 2008 and 2012. >> i say that just to get in the name checks. >> you took us on a funhouse tour of american politics. that is a deep cut, i recall that the rudy preeminent of the polls acutely because i worked on that campaign. in all seriousness, look, i think the idea that the president, that any president does not have a public that he cannot get his message across to the american people is incredible. one of the questions that biden has is how much is he going to rely on surrogates like barack obama to make his argument for

him. obama is a great communicator, but the contrast with biden is pretty clear. they are very complimentary figures in some ways, but biden is the president, he is the opportunity and obligation to make his own case and if you realize too much on surrogates than i think that will raise some additional questions. >> i would agree that you cannot rely too much on figures like obama, but figures like obama -- they're going to bring people out to the polls. this is really who his booster is, enthusiasm for biden is maybe not super high, but barack obama i think you can still bring people out. >> you are right. thank you very much friends, next, to whistleblowers told congress that the irs investigators recommended charging under biden with far more serious crimes than what he ended up with. so next we are going to bring you to cnn's latest reporting on this.

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>> doctor, how do you feel about taking the plea deal? >> hunter biden arrives via taurus charlie to the white house for a state dinner tonight. he did not answer that question. but prosecutors announced earlier this week that he would plead guilty to two tax misdemeanors as part of a plea deal. tonight, according to transcripts of private interviews with two whistleblowers, irs investigators initially recommended far more serious charges, including felonies, against the president's son. cnn's -- joins us now. my panel is also back with me. kara, what did the whistleblower say exactly? >> there were two whistleblowers that testified and private in a transcript

released by the house republicans. what we learned from them is that they had documents exhibits embedded in the transcripts. what they showed was that the irs investigators were recommending far more serious charges, including multiple accounts of tax evasion as well as other misdemeanors by a total of 11 accounts, obviously more serious than deal with hunter biden, reaching the government, where he will plead guilty to the two customers and according to our sources, that prosecutors won't recommend that he serves no prison time. that was the overarching at done here, that they were prepared for this, and that there were career officials in the department of justice that back that decision. there can always be the differences between what investigators want and what ultimately becomes a resolution, as elie will knows, they are cutting a deal and resolving the case. that was a key this. one of the whistle blowers was a supervisory special agent, who has a good reputation at the irs, his name is gary shapleigh. his main quote and allegation,

as he says, i am alleging with evidence that the doj provided preferential treatment, slow walked the investigation, did nothing to avoid of his conflicts of interest in the investigation. one thing that he points to says that the doj allowed the statute of limitations to run out some of the tax years, which also that narrowed the ability of the potential charges that they could bring. >> you say that he has a good reputation, is well regarded with the irs, what about the other whistleblower, do you know anything? >> he's a another career guy, he was on the investigation from just about its inception in november 2018. he's been working on it. he's also been on some significant cases. these are people that are well regarded? ,? and they came forward because they did not know what was going on here. they have additional details about what evidence they think existed, and one of the issues? was the question of venue. this was investigated by the u.s. attorney's office? in delaware, and they said that they knew as far back as june of 2021 to could?

be a potential problem, because that usually bring the cases where the alleged crime occurred. some started looking at california, where hunter biden lived, or in d.c., because that is where his tax returns were prepared. and that what the whistleblower said, he was an eighth meeting of october austere, where the attorney in delaware dave it was told him, according to his notes that he was referring to, that both the u.s. attorneys in d.c. and california declined to bring the case. he also revealed that he sought special counsel status that would bring him or freedom to see these cases, and that was tonight. he said, according to the notes by the whistleblower that weiss did not believe that he had the authority to do this. that is an inter contradiction to what voices publicly and what merrick garland, the attorney general, said publicly. they reiterated that today, saying why set the power to decide whether, one and one to charge hunter biden. >> elie, go. >> part of this, i agree with, part this, does not concern me as a.

so what, 100%. this is a five-year investigation, that is ridiculous. there is no reason that it should have taken five years. if you want to get out blame, the first half of that was under the trump administration. the second half but that was under this biden administration. slow walk, absolutely, there is no way that should've taken that long. the part where irs agents wanted to bring more serious charges, let me tell you, that happens all the time. every case is worth by a prosecutor, like where i was, and an agent, fbi, irs, whatever it may be. it is the most common in the world for a chance to say, let's charge him all the way to the max, sometimes beyond the max. the job by the prosecutor is to say, hang on, let me look at. maybe some of these things that you are gung ho to charge with their badge and their gun, don't quite make the law, and the agent wants to go here, and the prosecutor says, legally, we need to bring it here. if we look at the universe of what could happen to hunter biden for tax fraud, there are basically three outlooks. the most hardest would be tax

evasion, which would be a felony, apparently what so many agents want. the middle is the nonpayment, which is the misdemeanor. and some tax cases involving nonpayment get resolved summerlea. i had tax cases where my supervisor said that we are not doing the, send it over, so that they can file a lawsuit. he comes out in the middle ground here, not bothered by that part. >> quickly, john? >> i think this is credibility because there is evidence by this agent. that is a lot more than a of the storm around hunter biden that his accusers of congress have provided. that should be taken seriously. why should answer some of the questions that have been raised by this, so follow the facts, but let's keep in mind the other fact that voices a u.s. attorney appointed by the trump administration and kept in place by merrick garland in order to ensure political independents. so this whistleblower deserves credibility because he has evidence, and this is not part of the circus that sometimes surrounds hunter biden, and why

should answer for that, but why says a record of being an independent, and there is a reason to believe his independence. give us the republican perspective. >> i think what the trump folks will say, and a legitimate argument on the republican side, as well, is the process. as we have seen with the whistleblower saying the snow off, the chargers, they wanted to do higher charges or greater charges, even though the end result is all gonna be the same, with it being flat out, i think the trump folks will be able to say, look, everything i said about the investigation is showing itself in this investigation as well. and just because the u.s. attorney was my appointee, because i only had the best piece possible, the people underneath that person or not appointees. he won't be able to say the deep state actually helped hunter biden with this, and they were trying to help joe biden -- >> that would be there talking point -- >> but to their base, and that is what's feeds the fire, and that is the problem in the end. >> what do you think? >> what i think is --

i am not concerned that the doj did this. keep in mind, i used to work for ted stephens, who was prosecuted relentlessly during his time at the end of his career and wrongly, so i have a certain feeling about the doj. i don't think this whole case helps the doj argument that they are not partisan, that they are going by the book, and even though two legal scholars, they will say the anderson will be the same, the charges will be played out, the gun charges will be dropped, that is a problem. >> i got to go, ali. >> go ahead, it wasn't that good. >> that's awesome. all right, thanks, we'll be right back. this is how tosin lost 33 pounds on noom weight. i'm tosin. noom gave her a psychological approach to weight loss. noom has tght me how you think about food has such a.. huge impact on your relationship with it.

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