>> do you think this is going to impact deepwater exploration in the future? >> i think i remember when the titanic sank, obviously, that was a massive world event, the world media was on this thing. and the sinking of the titanic lead to new regulations related to how many rescue boats you had on it, on the titanic, they were not enough rescue boats for everybody. that got changed through the global legislation, safety measures got put in place, et cetera. so, that titanic event, more than 100 years ago, changed regulations. it is quite possible that with the titan imploding like this and with the partial lack, or maybe a gap in the regulatory space, if you do dives in international

borders -- quite possible that the titan might actually be the catalyst for more regulation within this submersible field or -- field. just like we haven't space -- as you, know i'm going to space next year. in order to have a rocket, you need to have it certified and testing in and testing and testing. you can't just fly up with it, like that. so, maybe, this submersible spaces space is more moving to a more regulated space like a space arena is. >> yeah, we'll see what comes out of this. i appreciate it, -- thank you so much. cnn, that it for us, cnn primetime, with kaitlan collins. kaitlan collins? >> hey, anderson. you arrived there on the scene just as we had learned that there were no survivors here. that all five on board had died. as parish was just talking about, just there, there's obviously been this huge international search underway. what have you heard from people on the ground? >> there's a real sense of

sadness and a somber feeling here. this is a maritime community, and people have been very closely following this. obviously, all week. this is where the ship, the explorers left from. it's just a really somber, sad feeling. i think there was, hope people held on to hope. to hear that extinguished late this afternoon, it's a difficult day. >> yeah, even as they has realized, as the days went on -- become more unlikely. but when it comes to what we heard about those five pieces of massive debris, other any chances experts believe, they will actually be able to recover any of that from the ocean floor? >> yeah, i think it really depends on who is involved in that. who would actually funder fund that. i was talking to somebody earlier, a maritime expert in -- and said, it's not like with

the f a a, who routinely investigate plane crashes. somebody would need to fund such an exploration to bring up some of these pieces and it's not clear exactly who would be behind that. obviously, a lot of people who are working in this field who would like to know exactly what happened. particularly, with this kind of composite carbon, carbon composite materials. so, it's possible. it's gonna be very expensive, it's gonna take time. they do have the rov still that's going to be capable of going down and looking at the debris field. but the coast guard wasn't clear, or they wouldn't say at this point, how long will continue with that rov. exploring the depths of the ocean in that area to try and find out more. >> i was so struck by what, james cameron, who, obviously, is an expert on the titanic, but also when it comes to these submersibles said earlier to you, when you were talking when he said, you would've never taken a risk like this without those rigorous safety checks, especially with customers who

we're not just going to explore -- they were paying customers going down and talk about the risk that they took with this specific vessel. yeah, it's true. >> because he designed and built an experimental submersible just for himself. and went three times deeper than the 13,000 feet that the titanic is at. he didn't go through the maritime safety protocols for that. in his, words it was an experimental kraft. and people who make that argument believe that the traditional maritime protocols really are not have not caught up with the experimental nature of some of these crafts. but the difference, he said, he would not have taken brought a passenger in that vehicle with, me without of taking responsibility for that. he found that unconscionable. >> anderson, thank you. ahead for us tonight, our conversation with the cofounder of oceangate, the company, of course, that our guest started with the late stockton rush.

first, the very latest information that we have on this tragedy. including reporting that a network of undersea navy censors actually picked up sounds that were consistent with an implosion, about the time that contact was first lost, with the titans on sunday. cnn's jason carroll joins us now. jason, what more can you tell us about that. the navy, possibly picking up either sounds of implosion, or an explosion. and how that factored into what has happened over the past four days? >> well, it's certainly one of the most intriguing developments that surfaced later on today. the navy indicating, in this, of course some of the supporting coming to us from cnn's own oren liebermann, basically, what happened, kaitlan collins, on sunday, and you'll remember, sunday was the day that the titan took its fatal, would end up being, it's fatal dive. early in the morning on sunday.

on that very same day, the navy detected acoustic signatures. based on the sonar devices that they had placed within the ocean. they had that information, they turned that information over to officials. who ended up conducting the search. so, it was determined that acoustic signature, that the navy had found, it could not be determined exactly what it was. so, the decision was made to continue the search. one official saying, any chance at saving a life is worth the mission. certainly, this is going to be a question that a lot of people are going to be looking at, going forward. simply because if the navy had this type of acoustic signature, again, we know what they eventually decided about that acoustic signature. but if they have that information, there's a question, why such this type of massive search? why this effort was put into this? why that information wasn't made a little bit more regularly readily available,

kaitlan collins. >> -- when it comes to, now that they did find these five major pieces of debris, as the coast guard describe them as the ocean floor, to they have a better sense of what went wrong, here? >> that is going to be a key part of this investigation. again, they're calling it a catastrophic implosion. an implosion that took place sometime after it made its descent. you remember, it was again on sunday, the descent took about an hour and 45 minutes for it to get beneath below the surface. at that, point lots of communication with the surface ship, that is going to be a big part of this conversation going forward, a big part of the investigation in terms of exactly what happened earlier today out here in boston, we heard from the coast guards rear adm.. we also heard from experts deep sea diving experts. the rear admiral explaining, in very

specific detail, what the rover, with that remote operated vehicle that was down on the ocean floor, exactly what it found earlier this morning. >> this morning, an rov or remotely operated vehicle, from the horizon arctic discovered the tail cone of the titan submersible, approximately 1600 feet from the bow of the titanic on the sea floor. the rov subsequently found additional debris. in consultation with experts from within the unified command, the debris is consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber. >> and kaitlan collins, also following

that deep sea expert also came to the mic and had to explain that that rov, again, those remotely operated vehicles, i mean, it just to let you know, also equipped with cameras and robotic arms. those rovs are still on the ocean floor. they're still going to continue searching, trying to map that area around the debris field. to see if there's anything else that can be found. >> big questions about the cost of trying to recover that debris. if that's what they do. we're hearing from the families, those who were lost today, it is the company itself oceangate have they said anything about what happened the determination that no one on board survived? they certainly have, in fact, oceangate, cofounding -- these guillaume -- i want to read part of the statement he put out. these men were true explorers, who share a distinct spirit of adventure and a deep passion for exploring and protecting

the world's oceans. our hearts are with our families, during this tragic time. we grieve the loss of life, and joy, they brought to everyone they know. i mean, there's going to be, again, a lot of back and forth in terms of what information was shared. the types of resources that were used. but i think you heard anderson touch on this, those in the maritime community really taking this very hard as these men were explores. they were dedicated to the world that they lived in. this is something that is going to be hitting a lot of people very, very hard. >> devastating outcome. jason carroll, thank you. throughout all of this, we have been talking to the oceanographer and deepwater search expert, david gallo. his friend,.p.h, one of the lies -- david, i first wanted to say,

i'm so sorry. because we have been talking every day since the titan disappeared. -- your friend p.h. -- you still had hope that this was a search and rescue mission. not just a recovery effort. what went through your head today when you heard that they had found debris on the ocean floor? >> kaitlan collins, i had hope. because we had to have hope. i mean, that was pretty clear. i think i may have said that somewhere along, the simplest conclusion was right in front of us. there had been an implosion. we knew about the sound, it wasn't confirmed, but we knew about the loss of communications. hard to explain any other way. because the vessel was underwater, it wasn't snagged on anything. that was an easy, obvious conclusion. we had to have hope. as i said, many times, miracles do happen. maybe not this time, but they do. we had to have hope, right up to the very end. it was difficult. but i think that's what you've got

to do. you can't just give up in the beginning. you just gotta go until you know for sure. >> you talked about the sounds that were heard. the u.s. navy says they detected, quote, an anomaly, consistent with an implosion. or an explosion in the general vicinity of where the titan was operating when those communications that you're referencing were lost. when you hear that, that is something they heard, is it clear that this is something that happens as they were in this dissent? from very quickly on? >> yes, kaitlan collins. that was a pretty big boom. a lot of energy there when that whole that sized collapses. it just fit to will with the time that communications ended. the two things came together in a way, with the navy, a credible source saying we not only hear, sound but it an implosion, which they could tell. those two pieces are, you know, you've gotta put them together.

and say this must be the same event. >> does that make you think that there was a design flaw with this? when you hear that happen that quickly after they had already started this dive on sunday, what does it tell you about that? >> i'm not an engineer. but p.h., who is as good as anyone -- he's not an engineer either. when he says this is safe, this vehicle is a safe vehicle, i have to go with p.h.. there's going to be a lot of people commenting about how this was a bad idea. bad design, untested. almost everyone i know, that have been around as long as i have been in the ocean, game as taken some risk. they did end up look like this, fortunately. i can't comment. it's not a vehicle i would've gotten, into is just not my kind of thing to get into a tube like vehicle. i do wonder about that too. this was a tube. most submarines that i know about our spheres, you had

a sphere, when it under compression, is pretty strong. a tube is a bit different. i think all that stuff is gonna come out in the next couple of weeks. it's gonna get ugly at times. but we do need to get to the truth about really what happened here. >> what do you mean by that? there are questions raised about this? i mean, obviously, i'm not an engineer either. people are raising questions about it. what do you mean, when you think we could learn about this? >> well, one of the design flaw to begin with? was this just a bad idea that somehow people that go -- because i hear many, many people, probably nine out of ten said, i would never get in that submarine. so, there wasn't really a serious design flaw, was stopped in an innovator, adventurer -- taking a calculated risk. or was it just one of those things? the oceans, just because you passed every test and get every sort of stamp, there is to have, it doesn't mean you're gonna have a perfectly safe dive. the oceans

are full of surprises. it's a very hostile place to be. so, somewhere in between there, something that could've happened to any summary or this was a fundamental design flaw. it's gonna be the truth or closely to the truth about what happened in this case. >> your friend, ph, had been on more than 35 dives to the wreckage of the titanic. he talked about his experience. he loved going there. we heard from james cameron, obviously, the director of the titanic diver himself. he described him as this legendary submersible dive pilot. we're showing this photo now, the two of you from 2010 in newfoundland, st. john's you think look at that you think back on this. what do you remember most about ph? >> oh, boy. there's so much. we've talked -- his family, the company that we

work with -- our amiss titanic inc. about how much we are going to miss him. he was a pain in the butt. -- parisian café. he was just unflappable. but always had a twinkle in his eye and a smirk, always up to trouble. so, that's going to be the stuff i miss most. but we've lost some incredible explore. and this world of exploration, especially marine exploration, is no lack of egos. and p.h. was, aside from all that -- he is not a person that wrote books, made movies or start stored in documentaries. he just did what he did for the love of what he was doing. that is something that i will misses well. >> given, clearly, that he had such a love for the titanic and to be able to go out there, as many times as he did, dozens of time, what does that say to you? >> there's something poetic in

a way that he is there now. he knew that place better than any other place. it's his favorite place on the sea floor. working that debris field beneath him was where we were putting our efforts into this artifacts preserving the legacy at the titanic, and now he is there. all of that kind of stuff will be running through my mind. it is going to be tough, certainly tough for all of our loved ones and family members of the other four people, but i have not begun to process that, and i know other people in our laboratory are feeling the same way, still that bit of shock, also the bit of acceptance because this could have happened -- we expected something like this to happen at some time, so we had to get through it and move on in his honor to finish the work that he began. >> well, david, we are thinking of all of you, all of your coworkers, everyone who knew ph and thank you for joining us

here every night in such a difficult time to talk about this and for joining us here tonight and, of course, our condolences for the loss of p. h.. >> thank you, thank you, kaitlan collins. >> absolutely. up next, we'll speak to the cofounder of oceangate and what his thoughts are learning about this. also later tonight, we'll have an update for you on presidential politics and the seemingly always growing republican field. let's go on again today as another congressman will hurd usher in the 2024 race. he will tell us why next.

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>> as more is being understood about what failed on the titan submersible, investigators will be able to address whether the design choices going into it and the way it was developed contributed to the subs implosion. perspective now from guillermo sohnlein. he met stockton rush back in 2008. the two of them cofounded oceangate and next year. guillermo left the company, i should not, in 2013. that was before the titan vessel began testing. but he does have a minority ownership stake in the company. and guillermo, thank you for joining us tonight. i want to start with your friend, stockton rush, who is among those confirmed lost today. i know the two of you met back in 2008. when you met him, what was your first impression of him? what do you want people to remember about him? >> i think, for me, he was

probably one of the most intelligent people i had ever met, very curious, very driven, very talented. and very committed to exploration and a passion for learning more about the oceans in a way to expand humanities understanding of the ocean, but also for humanity to be able to preserve the ocean. >> i know you just talked to him two weeks ago. does anything from that conversation stand out as you look back on it? >> no. i know he was, as always, every year, when oceangate does the science exhibitions to the titanic, he gets very excited about it. he was very excited about the team, the operations, the mission specialist who would be joining us, through the scientists who were going to be on board. it's always exciting to be able to go somewhere no one has really been before, to gather as much data as possible and

what the scientific community understand more about what is going on down there with the wreck of the titanic. >> you worked at oceangate for almost four years, which, i should note, was before the titan was created. but as these other submersibles were being produced, today is we heard from coast guard officials who said that what happened was this catastrophic implosion, was the term that they used. what would have caused this, in your view? >> well, first of all, anyone who operates in the deep ocean understands that there is a lot of pressure, especially at that depth of 3800 meters. whether it is humans inside a submersible or even rovs that they were using during a search and rescue operations, you are subject to that kind of pressure. there is always a risk of catastrophic implosion. it is something that we know about. it is something that we plan for, plan against. and it is just a known risk.

we take -- the community takes into account when designing the submersibles, when testing submersibles, and when operating the submersibles. >> and you mentioned stockton being risk-averse, as you said. red flags have been raised in recent years about this submersible specifically, about the titan and its design. leaders in the industry had actually warned about what they said were potentially catastrophic problems and they said the company did not follow the safety procedures that others had. do you think they should have been handled differently. ? >> i think we have to keep in mind that titan was the product of at least a 12 year or more technology development program. it went through several different phases. there were a lot of people involved in the design and build of the submersible, including folks at nashua, nasa, university of washington's applied physics lab, boeing, a lot of people had a hand in this, all providing their expertise in every aspect of the sub, including the rigorous

testing program that it went through. of course, keeping in mind that it's been operating the science expeditions to the titanic for a few years now, so i was not involved in the development of the sub, because i left the company since then, but i can't imagine what more that could've done in the development of these up. so. >> i should note, boeing and said that they are part of the development, and even the university of washington has also said that they had this grant initially, but only a small portion of it happened before the project essentially stopped. what are your thoughts, reflecting on this, about what this looks like going forward? what is the future for a company like oceangate? >> well, i think not just for oceangate but the entire ocean exploration commuted the, what we always do when things like this happen, we wait for the

team to collect data and to make determinations about what they believe occurred. and then we derive lessons from it and we build that into future exploration programs. expiration in general will continue going forward. it's the best way of honoring the crew and preserving their legacy. >> guillermo sohnlein, thank you for joining us tonight. we are so sorry for your loss. >> thank you. >> just ahead, what titanic director and deep sea explorer james cameron has to say about the parallels of back disaster and this one, specifically the red flags ignored back in 1912, and he believes this time as well. to imagine your future differently. thank you for coming together. with capella university's game-changing flexpath format, take courses on your own terms and apply the skills you learn right away.

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and the last, our tombs camryn, of course the famous director of the titanic, but we've also an expert in submersibles, and himself has dived dozens of times to the actual titanic wreckage, told anderson cooper about the striking similarities that he sees it between the sinking of the titanic, and ocean gates failed expedition,

and how in both cases, he says there were obvious risks that were overlooked. >> i think there is a great, almost surreal irony here, which is, titanic sank because they captain took it full steam into an ice field at night on a moonless night, with a very poor visibility, after he had been repeatedly warned by telegram, by radio, during the day that that is what was ahead of him. so, i think we are also seeing a parallel here with unheeded warnings about a sub that was not certified, where the entire deep sub merchants community actually -- not the entire community, but a large community of them got together to write a letter to oceangate, the company, and say this could lead to catastrophe. >> with me, now is richard, we see the president of the explosive club and friend of hamish harding his on board that titanic found submersible

today. i want to talk about what james cameron said, i know you know his expertise, here but we talked last night about the help they still have, what did you have in mind when you heard today from the coast guard? >> well you know it has been so surreal for someone's fence at the exposed call, because this is playing in a public, way but i think all of us universally have been on so many chat strands with different people, and they think about the family, and i did not know the other for, man but i know that their families are going through something that is just rocking their world. i think grief is a very universal motion, and whether your father is a fireman, or a soldier in ukraine, or in migrant out at sea, in your world, it is everything, and with hamish, how do you tell his two sons, that superman, died when superman are they're? >> and one of his sons was earlier talking about what a special person he, was how they

made this cross-country trip, and when you hear from james cameron, what he is saying, they're talking about the risks here, the parallels between the titanic and the submersible, do you think that this is something that could have been avoided if there were enhanced a few measures? what is your sense -- >> the obvious answer is, yes, anything but when the challenger went up and had that explosion, could you have guessed it was the o rings, i think, so i believe in the evolution of humans, and i think in the exploration community, yes there is definitely grief on, there but you know, next week people won't detach themselves emotionally from the individuals, and sort of assess the situation. the aviation community has done very well every time there's an accident, they look at how can we do it, better build it better, and, so one of your guest had mentioned with the titanic, i think it was --

not brought about so many regulations that were, you know, not considered up until that point. so, you know, with any disaster, whether it is covid, or this particular thing. if you do not come out of that disaster, or accident knowing, or be better as a society, then you have failed. >> yes, and we will see if regulations do change, but hamish harding was your friend. >> yes, a lot of people friend. he was popular, and you, know there is a certain irony that prime minister -- was in washington today, because one sort of factoid about hamish was, he was responsible with one of our esteemed exploiters of -- bringing wild cheat us, and reintroducing them to india. it was on his birthday, and you, know explorers have always had that ability to have politics fail with the soviets in the americans first reach across

the aisle, it was scientist who want to exchange information and so hamish really part of that great tradition and so many things on a friend dies stupid little things and hugging someone on the summit of a mountain or i guess, what i think about most -- when a clean kilo montero together, he brought a whole bunch of friends among that, and came out of their fans from other countries there. and, he reveled in them enjoying the experience, and he was an intellectual guy, and certainly had an insatiable curiosity. but, he wanted to share, it and i think while it is unfortunate for his son to miss their father, he is laid the groundwork for them being tremendous men themselves. >> that is really lovely, i think he sounds like such an injuring -- it is not easy to come on and

talk, about so thank you. thank you. up next of course, we will remember the lives that were lost today. of course, we will get an update on the state of the presidential race as a crowded gop field just got another contender added to its fixed. up next, i will be joined by the next candidate former congressman will hurd. >> they may have pain from a common condition called osteoarthritis. now, there's solensia. solensia is a once-monthly injection to control your cat's oa pain. veterinary professionals administering solensia who are pregnant, trying to conceive, or breast feeding should take extreme care to avoid self-injection. self-injection could cause allergic reactions like anaphylaxis. ask your vet about solensia and help get your cat back to their normal.

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field just got even bigger than it already was. a 12th candidate by our count has already joined the, race former texas congressman will hurd who joins us now here in studio. congrats on entering the race. you were joining a very crowded field, as you can see there from that picture, how do you pull this off? >> well, look, the way you pull it off, and the thing i thought was interesting today, within minutes of mandel, saying donald trump and the dnc were attacking me, which is a sign that they think i'm dangerous. and, the thing that i have learned, the entire time as an adult, is the republican party is supposed to be the big ten party. unfortunately, right now we are stuck in these echo chambers, and we are always preaching to the choir. we have to grow the choir if we are going to be successful in november, and that is the path. it is hard, it is going to be difficult for a dark horse candidate like me, but there is a path, and the fact that 77%

of americans do not vote in primaries, and one of the big reasons is that they do not like the candidates that are in their. people are not talking about the issues we should be talking about. so i will do what i did in the 23rd, but nobody thought a black republican could win in a 72% latino district, i will talk about issues people care about. >> do you think you will get on the debate state to talk about those issues? >> well it depends what the rules are. the bottom line is this. i take one plight, that is when i put my hand on my heart, and to pledge allegiance to the flag. i've taken one oath, that is to defend the constitution of the united states of america. and, i have taken one, foul that is to my missing beautiful wife, and i won't be signing any kind, pledges and i do not think that parties should be trying to rig who should be on a debate stage. >> so you're not going to sign the pledge that you will support the candidate, whoever the candidate's, including potentially donald trump? >> that is right. donald trump is not going to sign a pledge, either and part of it was designed to put him

in that place, and, so i am not in the business of lying to the american people, and in order to get a microphone, and i'm not going to support donald trump, and so i cannot honestly say i'm going to sign something, even a few may or may not be the nominee. >> are you going to the rnc to amend that legit, to take away the loyalty pledge? >> the rnc can to what the rnc wants to, do and, like i, said i do not think political parties should be trying to rig thought process of who is on stage. >> yes, and you clearly think they're trying to tip the scale. you are a former cia officer, as you, know trump is accused of taking in information related to the defense capabilities, weapons capabilities, and if what is alleged is true, do you think -- >> 100% he did, and to me, he knew what he had, he knew the

level of sensitivity, and yes, and you are innocent and improving guilty. and if those allegations are true, it is slapping the men and women who put themselves in harm's way every single night in order to keep us safe, it is a slap in their face, because the leader of the free world should be willing to protect those, secrets because they got in the wrong hands, people would -- lives would be lost. what we still have not heard from donald trump, is why -- he said the other night, i had t-shirts, and shoes in those boxes. right, that is outrageous. while also did he do to protect those documents at his properties? what did he do to that his employees, or people that came to the club, and determine whether or not they were being targeted, from our adversaries? we know the russians and chinese, what they do to try and influence and gain information, and this would have been a target rich

environment. donald trump hasn't announced, what has he done in order to protect us? >> republicans are using those 37 counts against him to attack the justice department, and the fbi. or the wrong to do that here. >> look, all of this stuff, it is, it is nonsense, it is crazy. this is why the american public is frustrated with donald, trump and biden. if you care about the boxes, and mar-a-lago, you should also care about what hunter biden is doing. if you care about, you know, whether or not donald trump is protecting secrets, you should also care about the terrebonne investigation. this is the frustration the american people, have and this is why a majority of americans do not want either joe biden, or donald trump -- >> yes, but you acknowledge those differences in the hunter biden stuff. you can say he -- you can obviously see a difference in, that and holding on to nuclear -- >> of course. and, he was the leader of the free world, right, and you have a high expectation.

so there's no question. but also, in this time, what i would like the doj to, do is show a level of transparency. because, there is an erosion of trust between the american people, and many of our institutions. when you have something like this, i think we need to see a higher level of transparency to meet this. but let me be clear, if one of those counts is accurate, it is a problem. and because donald trump is dealing with this baggage, and worried about, is he going to potentially spend the rest of his life in prison. guess what he is not doing? thinking about the future of our country. thinking about how we can deliver -- >> it sounds like you think you should drop out. >> donald trump needs to be, beaten beaten in a republican primary. and, that is what we should -- that is what i'm planning on doing, that is one of the reasons i got in the race, because we have a general defining challenges that we have to face, with and we shouldn't be having to debate whether he keeps classified secrets in the blue, which you

shouldn't by the way. so, this is the problem, and this is why americans are frustrated. guess who is letting all this happen? our adversaries. they love the fact that we are fighting with one another. they love the fact that they can go to their allies, and say see, those people cannot get democracy right. how can you trust? them work with us. that is we are going into a, road position and will that affect every american. that is the problem. this is what we need to make sure we are having common sense, in these very complicated times. >> will hurd, newest gop presidential candidate, we will spend a lot of time talking to coming up imagine. you will be spending a lot of time in new hampshire and iowa, but thank you for joining us here in studio tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> and up next, we have a cnn exclusive interview with former president barack obama. his thoughts on democracy. christiane amanpour will join us to share with the former president had to say about this 2024 election, but also the war in ukraine.

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here is a clip from that interview. >> president biden is running for reelection. everybody is talking about his age, his polls, even some challenges within the democrats, maybe somebody might try to primary exceptions. but, what i would like to know, is many say that his policies and legislative, and his winds frankly should speak for themselves. and yet, according to the -- democrat leading company firm, only some 22% of latino, voters 33% of black voters can actually identify something that they say he stunned to specifically make their lives better. what would you say to that? and how would you advise him to connect in a reelection? >> i think joe biden has done an extraordinary job, our country has been through difficult times, i do not think that there is going to be any kind of serious primary

challenges to joe biden. i think democratic party is unified, i think there was a lot of talk, you remember, when he was first elected, bernie sanders somehow said there was this huge split between progressive democrats, and more centrist democrats, and the truth, is partly because of, that joe has governed those decisions have been bridged. i think what is true in american politics generally, until you get two campaigns, people -- people have gone through a difficult time, because of covid, and the pandemic, and lockdowns, and because of inflation. primarily, and the result of both the war in ukraine, and rising energy prices, as well as supply chain issues. so, people have memories about things getting more expensive, and gas was more expensive. and, they haven't been paying as much attention to the fact that for example, the african

american unemployment rate is lower than it has been in decades. the campaign will allow president biden to make those arguments. and i think that, you know, in a medium environment that is so cluttered, it is very hard to break through until you get two elections. you will recall when i ran for reelection in 2012, my poll numbers were not -- and, we ended up winning comfortably. of that was just started campaigning, we were able to get the message, out of people said you know, that policy, or this policy, or this left undone, but, overall, i think he has done a good job, and i think that is what they are going to conclude about joe biden. >> when russia started its illegal invasion, a second invasion of ukraine, i believe you said that democracies, it is a wake up call, democracies are getting -- where does ukraine in your view

stand in the fight to preserve democracy? >> i think it is vital, i think it is interesting, before i left office, the gave speeches not just here in, athens were also in hamburg, in london, and one of the arguments i made, is do not take for granted extraordinary achievement of the european union, and the fact that a -- by war, and bloodshed for centuries, was now as prosperous and peaceful as any in history. and then, now we have seen, the first war on -- may recent memory, and i think it was a wake up call to, europe and i think it was a wake up call to the u.s. and around the world, that the old ways of thinking might make countries can do what they want, through small countries that

people cannot independently determine their futures, and that those forces have to be confronted and watching the ukrainians themselves, and with such courage and very very many my the degree to which, in not these easy circumstances, europe has stood up, it has provided what is necessary by the biden administration, and has managed maintaining that alliance to support ukraine. and, i believe the stakes are high, to send a message to somebody like putin, that they are not going to be able to determine the borders of other countries. >> and christian joins me now,

christiane, obviously when obama was, president had annexed -- his administration did not provide ukraine the lethal weapons. i understand you asked him about, that what did he say? >> yes, i did. i asked him about didn't he think that he and his other allies like angela merkel of germany had not put enough red lines around putin, and not confronted him enough after the first invasion in 2014. and, he essentially said, look 2020 is hindsight, and the truth is, he said, we do not win russia as it was, then and ukraine as it is now, and we dealt with the tools that we had. so, it was not really going there, but he does absolutely believe that ukraine is fundamental to this global battle to preserve democracy. and, it is interesting, here we are in the spectacular incheon, city greece is the birthplace of democracy, he came with his obama foundation, with an

outlook of young people who they are training and mentoring to try and struggle to protect democracy in the future, and right now around the world. democracy and institutions he says, are really creaky, and a lot of them need reform, not just around the, world but in the united states as well. >> christiane amanpour, thank, you great interview. >> thanks, caitlin. >> and coming up, we will remember the five lives lost aboard the titan submersible. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. if you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier.

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