good evening, everyone. i'm alisyn camerota. welcome to "cnn tonight." we're learning tonight the navy picked up the sound of an implosion on an underwater learning system on sunday, just hours after the sub lost communications. why did the search go on for four more days? we've got a live report from the pentagon coming up. we'll break down everything we know tonight about the victims on the ill-fated journey and what went wrong. plus, you just heard christiane amanpour's exclusive interview with former president obama. tonight we've got reaction to what he says about the indictments of donald trump. we'll also examine what he says about his former vice president, joe biden. stick around for that. let's begin with news of

the titanic submersible. cnn's jason carroll is live in boston where some of the coast guard searchers were based and orrin liverman is at the pentagon for us. you're getting new information about this top secret at the time navy system that detected this implosion very soon after the sub lost communications. so what do we know tonight? >> reporter: that's right. a senior navy official tells us that the navy picked up on a sound or acoustic signature that was likely or could have been an implosion or an explosion at about the time the titan submersible went missing and about the location where it went missing. according to that senior navy official, the navy immediately passed that information on to the incident commander and it was then used to refine and narrow down the search area, an incredibly wide area. so why didn't it end the search immediately? this is a crucial question, especially when it was picked up on sunday. that's because the navy official says the sound itself was not definitive and they couldn't say for certain what

it was and because there were lives at stake here, this search didn't automatically become a recovery or a salvage and remained a search and rescue effort over the course of the next several days. after the navy analysts had a chance to look at this and try to figure out what it was, these analysts also looked at the other sounds picked up, for example, the banging noise we talked about the last several days, but officials say that banging noise was likely are the natural life or simply a sound or noise coming from the other ships and vessels that were responding to the search area. of course, the crucial question goes back to the sound picked up sunday that we now know was the implosion of the titan submersible. that sound again was detected at about the time and location that the titan went missing, but because it wasn't definitive, alisyn, it didn't immediately end the search and the search continued over several days, the navy using this top secret system of

essentially sensors that are able to pick up on sounds or acoustic signatures and they're able to use these different sensors to triangulate where this was and allow them to narrow in on the search so that when a remotely-operated vehicle finally got down to the bottom, it was fairly quickly able to find the debris field. >> jason, did the coast guard ever mention this? they obviously were out searching. there was so many vessels, so much manpower. did they talk about they'd been alerted there had been this sound of an explosion days earlier? >> reporter: no. not during any of the briefings we attended. that would have been something we obviously would have reported. it seems very clear since this acoustic signature was deemed not definitive, they simply carried on with what was a search and rescue mission. the reasoning behind that being

that if there was any chance that someone might be alive to go on ahead and do that. the outstanding question that i think a lot of us have here on the ground after learning about this recent report now is one particular point and that is the coast guard has made it abundantly clear throughout all this they've been in close communication, close contact, with the family members. that makes one wonder did anyone inform the family members very privately about what the navy had discovered and, if so, one can imagine the roller coaster of emotions these poor families were dealing with, first having to deal with that, then probably in all likelihood hearing about these reports of banging noises which also it turns out ended up being not true and then finally today getting that word, the official word from the coast guard, that this remote operating vehicle, this rov, had gone down to the surface this morning and had

come across the debris. so that's the question i think a lot of folks are wondering out here on this end, what were the families told and, if so, what a roller coaster of emotions it must have been for them. >> jason, what's the latest on recovery efforts? >> reporter: that is something they've stone about here in boston at coast guard headquarters. they talked about those remote operating vehicles, the rovs. they're still going to be down there on the seabed near the titanic. they'll map out the location near the debris field. they'll continue to map out that area to see if there's a chance they come across any other wreckage or evidence of what happened down there, but we also got word they are going to pull back on some of their other resources within the next 24 hours or so. >> thank you both very much for

the latest from the pentagon and the scene in boston. here with me tonight i have christine dennison who plans and runs expeditions like that of the titan, tim burton who runs deep water searches, and forensic expert rhonda monise. tim and christine, james cameron, director of a famous titanic film, said that he knew about the explosion noise sunday and he started calling his circle. it sounds like there were people who knew that was a bad sign. do you have questions about why the search with all of these resources and manpower and energy and money went on for so many days? >> talking to engineers that have seen this submersible, they utilize, my understanding, a glass sphere in the aft

compartment for electronics and equipment. the glass sphere is a really good tool for keeping these electronics in place, but it's full of air and it can implode. it's basically a bomb sitting on the back of their housing. no submarine group uses them. no submarine, submersible operator, will go near -- they're used in all sorts of beacons and buoys in the ocean unmanned because if they blow up, it's unmanned, but no operator of a submersible will go near a sphere in unmanned equipment to work on it because if it blows up, it's a small bomb that will take -- >> that's what you think happened? >> when you're talking about the navy sound, if they can't determine what it is, was it the sphere that blew? are they still intact or did the sphere blow and blow up and damage their housing and caused them to blow or did they just

implode on the main housing? there's a forensic study. the guests might be able to weigh in on it. this design -- >> got it. they couldn't be sure what the explosion sound was. >> no one else uses that in a manned submersible. it's another thing they used along with carbon fiber that was what they thought was cutting edge and may have been what did them in. >> now we're hearing about so many people who raised safety questions about the manufacturing of this titan. what are your questions? >> i saw the interview with james cameron earlier. i think he was so exact and precise and to hear it from an expert like him with firsthand experience, it's very valuable and very telling that within the very small community there have been a lot of red flags for years that this was an experimental sub, that passengers should not have been

exposed to it going on this and that it was a catastrophe waiting to happen, which unfortunately it has. now our efforts are not just on the recovery, but we've got families and we have so much information we have to delve into and the questions we all have from the first day, the timing. we've heard so many stories. i've heard so many different sources tell me they heard there was a distress call, a final ping and the timing wasn't right. now we're hearing about the navy. transparency at this point where we can't help them, it's kind of done. it's what we need to do and answer questions for the same of the families because they are in tremendous pain. >> understood. rhonda, you're often called in to consult on these underwater forensic investigations, so where would you start? >> i think i would start with

what they're doing currently. they've got two debris sights they'll have to map. they have sonar that gives very detailed 3d mapping of those areas. as i understand it, there's two sites, a larger and smaller site. they'll map those and recover the debris that they, can anything that's large enough that they can recover, they will. the first thing they have to do is map the site and collect as much data as possible. mapping is the way to do it and it's very, very detailed. that will give them information in addition to what they can salvage to put this information together. >> rhonda, you went on a previous expedition with ocean gate, this company, and stockton rush, who is now one of the deceased but who was the ceo behind ocean gate. what were your impressions? there's so many questions now

about whether corners were cut, et cetera. what were your impressions? >> i went on a different expedition. it was an earlier version of this sub called cyclops and on the andradoria wreck which was 250 feet, which is a vast defense than 12,500 feet, and my job was the rov pilot and i brought redundant systems, redundant parts. my job was in case something happened with that system, i could put rovs in the water and assist in a search and rescue operation. that was a much different project and i felt there was a lot of redundancy in that, a plan in case something happened. in this situation it's much, much different. it's a different system and we're talking about a considerably deeper depth.

>> i want to play something stockton rush said in 2021 about the materials that he was using, plexiglass, acrylic, and why he felt confident about it. >> it's acrylic, plexiglass, and it is seven inches thick, weighs about 80 pounds. when we go to the titanic, it will squeeze in about three- quarters of an inch. it squeezes and before it cracks or fails, it starts to crackle. so you get a huge warning if it's going to fail. >> you heard him there, tim and christine. he's justifying why he's doing something different than what the industry does and he's saying you have huge warning before it fails. >> his whole premise was the industry doesn't evolve. it does evolve at a pace that's

safe and tested. lithium ion batteries, they use them now. ten years ago they didn't. they cost a lot of money, but they have to be certified and inspected. it's a self-regulating industry, but it hasn't had an accident in 50 years. he was a renegade and he was warned and he went out, not only did he do carbon fiber. he did glass sphere. now he's doing acrylics. changing one thing and testing it, but changing everything, there needs to be some responsibility here. >> we have to go. do you have any last thoughts? >> no. just that we should keep the families close to our hearts and we get some transparency and forensics to find out what happened and how it took place. >> thank you very much. we've got much more on the catastrophic implosion. next the history of the titanic, hear what james

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the discovery of debris from the missing sub confirming everyone's worst fears tonight, the mission to see the wreck of the titanic had a tragic ending. cnn's tom foreman is at the magic wall to explain some things to us today. what was found today? >> what was found was what we needed to know what happened really. they found this part first, the sort of tail cover. they say the second thing was this titanium nose cap that contains a window he was talking about in the video and they found the back cap back here. as soon as they found this, they knew everyone had perished because this is nothing but a titanium tube. without a cap on either end that's the end of it because there's 5,000 pounds of pressure for every square inch down there. knowing that, also, based on

the time when they stopped getting communications from the people on board, now you match that up with the sound signature. you mentioned the navy recorded and you get closer to knowing this probably happened somewhere around this depth. it's about 2 1/2 miles all the way down. somewhere in that area it would have happened and the debris landed out here off the bow of the titanic. there's two parts. one half is about a half mile away. the bow is up in this area. all of that, what did they find? they found really conclusive evidence quickly that everyone had passed away in that explosive moment recorded by the navy. >> tom, what's the plan for recovering those things and the rest, if there's more debris? >> they'll be doing a lot of work with these rovers, see if they can pick up more and more things, get photographs, very

careful mapping of everything there. that's because obviously there are huge concerns for the families and respect for people who passed. from an engineering standpoint, they need to get as close as they can to getting as many pieces as they can to figure out what exactly went wrong. was it the seal here or here or that window up front here? did something like that give way and maybe the debris, if you get enough of it and put it all back together, even if some of it's virtually from photographs, maybe it will tell you what actually went wrong instead of just what you think went wrong because at this depth remember, you could have a pinhole problem and that could cause systemic failure and everything goes to pieces there. the sad truth of it is, though, they'll be gathering all of this evidence truly so close to the titanic itself, the thing that drew these people down there, the titanic which had been sitting there more than a century now, more than 1,500

dead on that ship. >> tom, thank you for explaining all that, really helpful. so the tragedy of the titan submersible is now forever tied to the historic catastrophe of the titanic and tonight james cameron, director of the epic movie, talks about the eerie parallels. >> i think there's a great almost surreal irony here because the titanic sank because the captain took it into an icefield on a moonless night with very poor visibility after he had been repeatedly warned by telegram, by marconi- gram, by radio, during the day that's what was ahead of him. i think we're seeing a parallel here with unheeded warnings about a sub that was not certified, where the entire deep submergence community, a large number of them, got together and wrote a letter to

oceangate saying, "we believe this could lead to catastrophe." >> basically what james cameron is saying in large measure it was hubris because basically it's your feeling stockton rush was always push the envelope. that's what he was known for. >> i think he was believing his own hype sometimes. he wanted to make so many changes from my perspective looking at this and not to bad mouth the deceased here, but he was warned by a lot of people. he didn't take those warnings and the people he took believed him. that's the next step in this catastrophe is they thought

they were safe or safer. everybody knows the risk, but there was an element of danger they weren't aware of. >> they did sign a release death was possible, but i hear what you're saying. they had to suspend belief it was really going to be catastrophic. >> there's no third-party agency verifying that. they didn't go to the competition or another engineering firm and ask. >> i think they do mention the word death, that you could die sometimes, and that is an element of any kind of extreme adventure. however, if you are a client and don't know what to ask, you won't ask. you don't think about the idea. >> it doesn't occur to you to know the things you were describing of how fiberglass is different than whatever else. >> carbon fiber doesn't hold up like this. >> hold that thought because we're joined now by a titanic historian, craig sokin of the

titanic society. i don't know if you could hear james cameron talking about what he sees as the eerie similarities knowing the titan, a submersible, was going down because they were lovers of the titanic and the lore and history and now that is their final resting place. >> yeah. today the titanic took five more victims unfortunately. there's something that distinguishes the titanic from many other sea disasters. it was a ship practically unsinkable and is sank and sank of all times on its maiden voyage. the captain went down with the ship. the band played until the end. it was a microcosm of society. there was class structures on board the ship, cowardice, heroism. what we had here the last four days was not merely a missing

submersible. it was a missing submersible connected to the titanic. that's where the passion was. it was totally different than just anything else. that's why everyone woke up the past four days having to turn the television on to see what was happening with respect to the rescue. while there are some parallels, the titanic was in a class all its own, but everything the titanic touched became very important to everyone because of their passion for the ship and the stories out there that have been told through countless books and magazines and plays and films, et cetera. this was a very, very sad day for the titanic community and the rest of the world. i knew him on the voyage.

>> great to talk to you. thanks for being here. >> thank you. up next, former president barack obama speaking to cnn exclusively about race in america, about the indictments of donald trump and president biden, as he runs for reelection. new vibrant from air wick can truly elevate your living space. with two times the natural essential oil it's time to raise your fragrance expectations. vibrant from air wick.

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for $49.99a month for 12 monts plus ask how to get up to a $750 prepaid card with qualifying internet. tonight a cnn exclusive interview with former president barack obama. christiane amanpour sat down with him in athens to get his thoughts on the state of democracy and the 2024 election. they also talked about recent criticism of his comments on race from tim scott and nikki haley. he said this about race in america. >> i think race has always been the fault line in american life and american politics. that's not original to me. i think any observer of american would say that.

by the way, that historically has not been a one-sided partisan issue. my favorite president, abraham lincoln, did an awful lot to advance the cause of freedom and conversely, the democratic party was where the dixiecrats resisted civil rights and progress for years and imposed jim cow. so it is something that america has had to grapple with for centuries. i think we have made real progress, although i was always skeptical my election somehow signified a post racial america. if you look at any speech i gave throughout my presidency, i was always someone who reminded the country of the progress that was possible. that was my brand, right? that's part of the hope and change thing, but what i've

also always said about hope was it can't be blind hope. it can't be a willful ignorance to our history. we reckon with our history. that's how we then get better. >> let's bring in our panel, senior reporter for "the root," jessica washington, john avlon, republican strategist jason osborn and cnn senior legal analyst. does president obama and nikki haley and tim scott fundamentally see race in america differently? is that the debate here, is it systemic or not systemic? >> i think to a certain extent you hear tim scott saying let's not talk about this past and that's how we'll come together and obama is really saying we have to talk about it in order to come together. you are hearing two people who are saying we have to make this better and have conversations about race that are not so toxic in society, but i think what obama is saying is we both

have a history of racism and are currently dealing with that aftermath, the effects of racism in our society, and until we deal with that we'll never have this kumbaya moment i think people like tim scott would like to have this second. >> tim scott in his such speech in iowa talks about how his grandfather in south carolina in the early part of the 20th century dealt with jim crow racism, discrimination. >> i think he said he had to get off the sidewalk to let white pedestrians pass. >> which was a fact of that era. i don't think tim scott is ignoring that past, but the emphasis is clearly from tim scott's perspective on where we are and where we're going, not coincidentally related to the fact he's trying to win a republican primary. so he's saying let's not focus on the history. he's acknowledging it, though, and deserves credit for that. put aside tim scott's recent comments about president obama which i think are not

consistent with his general tone of optimism. i think both are dealing with the past, but obama's equilibrium is a little more balanced and text message scott is saying let's focus on the progress we've made and where we're going. >> i would take it a step further. i agree, but i think he is acknowledging hey, despite the past look what i've been able to accomplish and look what all these other people have been able to accomplish, not only nationwide, but in my area, the mayor in his town in south carolina. i think he's saying we are making a lot of progress. we don't need to focus so much on the history, but the fact people have overcome all these obstacles, but there's still so many more to overcome for our country to move forward. >> i think that's where a lot of the delta is. >> that's fair. >> early in his presidency barack obama did not want to be known as the race president. he was very resistant to that

until he gave his big speech in philadelphia at the constitution museum where he took the issue on more head long. one thing he will always do is talk about the progress we've made. he never says all our problems are solved, but i think it's good for everyone to be reminded of the progress we've made. >> of course, he was asked about the upcoming presidential race and i think why his former vice president, president biden now, why the poll numbers are so anemic. >> i think what's true in american politics generally is until you get two campaigns, people aren't paying much attention. people have gone through a difficult time because of covid, the pandemic, lockdowns, because of inflation, primarily the result of both the war in ukraine and rising energy prices as well as supply chain

issues. so people have memories about okay, a, it's gotten more expensive and gas was more expensive and they haven't been paying as much attention to the fact, for example, the african american unemployment rate is lower than it's been in decades. the campaign will allow president biden to make those arguments. in a media environment that's so cluttered, it's very hard to break through until you get to election. >> do you think when president biden is campaigning, things will turn around. >> follows now are very fluid and will continue to go up and down until biden gets on the road and starts having to defend some of the things he's done, we won't see real numbers. at this point in the cycle in 2011 rudy giuliani was in the lead. after rudy it became michele

bachmann and herman cain. polls are very fluid and i do think biden does have a lot to make up for. one thing that's interesting to obama's point about inflation and gas prices, when the prices started coming down president started paying attention to the campaigns and said wait, gas prices are kind of low now, forgot they were really low two years prior, but the economy drives the campaign and voters to the polls. >> michele bachmann, herman cain. >> wow. >> i will say with due respect, you conflated two republican primary cycles there. >> i say that's fair just to get in the name checks. >> you took us on a fun house tour of american politics. i recall the rudy preeminence in the polls acutely, as i

worked on that campaign. the idea any president doesn't have a bully pulpit to get his message across, he's still president of the united states. obama is a great communicator, but the contrast with biden is clear. they're very complementary figures in some way, but biden is the president and has the opportunity to make his own case. if he relies too much on surrogates, i think that will raise additional questions. >> i would agree you can't rely on figures too much like obama, but he's a figure that will bring people out to the poll. i think he's who his booster is. barack obama can still bring people out. >> thank you very much, friends. next, two whistleblowers

told congress irs investigators recommended charging hunter biden with far more serious crimes than he ended up with. next we'll bring you cnn's latest reporting on this. kitc? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger.

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hunter, how do you feel after taking the plea deal? >> hunters biden arrived via tourist trolley to the white house for a steak dinner tonight. he did not answer that question, but prosecutors announced earlier this week he would plead guilty to two tax misdemeanors as part of a plea deal. tonight according to transcripts of his private interviews with two whistleblowers, irs investigators initially recommended far more serious charges, including felonies, against the president's son. cnn's kara scannell joins us

now. what did these whistleblowers say? >> yes. two whistleblowers testified in private and the transcripts were released today by house republicans. they have documents, exhibits embedded in these transcripts. they showed the irs investigators were recommending far more serious charges, a total of 11 counts, obviously a lot more serious than this deal with hunter biden reaching with the government where he'll plead guilty to two misdemeanors and according to our sources, prosecutors will recommend he doesn't serve prison time. that was kind of the overarching headline here, that there were career officials in the department of justice that backed that decision. there can always be differences between what investigators want and what ultimately becomes a resolution. they're cutting a deal, resolving this case, but that was a key piece of this.

one of the whistleblowers is a supervisory agent, gary shapley. his main allegation he says, "i'm alleging with evidence doj provided preferential treatment, slow walked the investigation and did nothing to avoid obvious conflicts of interest in this investigation." one thing he points to says doj allowed the statute of limitations to run out on some of these tax years which also narrowed the ability of potential charges they could bring. >> you say he's well regarded within the irs. what about the other whistleblower? >> he's another career guy on this investigation from about its inception in november 2018. he's been working on it. he's been on some significant cases. these are people well regarded. they came forward because they didn't really know what was going on. they go into some additional details what evidence they think existed. one of the issues was this question of venue. this was investigated by the

u.s. attorney's office in delaware. they said they knew as far back as june 2021 that could be a possible problem because they usually bring the cases where the alleged crime occurred. they started looking at maybe in california where hunter biden lived or in d.c. because that's where his tax returns were prepared. this whistleblower says he was in a meeting october last year where the u.s. attorney in delaware, david weiss, told him according to his notes that both the u.s. attorneys in d.c. and california declined to bring the case. he also revealed he sought special counsel status to give him more freedom to bring these cases and that was denied. weiss said he didn't believe he had authority to do this in direct contradiction to what weiss has said publicly and what merrick garland, the attorney general, said publicly. they reiterated that today saying weiss had the power to decide whether, what and when

to charge hunter biden. >> part of this i agree with. part of this doesn't concern me at all. slow walked 100%. this is a five-year investigation. that is ridiculous. there's absolutely no reason this should have taken five years. if you want to give out the blame, the first half of that was under the trump administration. the second half was under this biden administration, so slow walked, absolutely. the part where the irs wanted to bring more serious charges, that happens all the time. every case is worked by a prosecutor like i was and an agent, fbi, whatever the case may be. it is the most common dynamic in the world for the agent to say let's charge them up to the max, sometimes beyond. the job of the prosecutor is to say hang on, let me look at it. maybe some of these things you are gung to charge with your badge and gun don't quite go with the law. the prosecutor says legally we need to bring it here. if we're looking at what could

have happened for tax fraud for hunter biden, the most harsh outcome would be tax evasion, a felony, which apparently is what some of the agents wanted. the middle ground is the nonpayment, which is the misdemeanor, and some tax cases get resolved civilly. i had tax cases where my supervisor said sent it to civil. they can file a lawsuit. he comes out in the middle ground here. >> this has credibility because there is evidence by this agent. that is a lot more than the storm around hunter biden and his accusers in congress provided. that should be taken seriously. some of the questions should be answered raised by this. follow the facts, but keep in mind the other fact, that weiss is a u.s. attorney appointed by the trump administration and kept in place by merrick garland to insure political independence. this whistleblower deserves credibility because he has

evidence. this is not part of the circus that sometimes surrounds hunter biden and weiss should answer for that. weiss has a record of being independent. >> give us the republican perspective. >> yeah. i think what the trump folks will say and a legitimate argument is the process, as we've seen with the whistleblower saying with the slow walk, they wanted to do greater charges even though the end result i think was going to be the same with it being pled out. i think the trump folks will say look, everything i've said about the investigation into me, is it showing itself in this investigation as well? just because that u.s. attorney was my appointee because i only have the best people possible, the people underneath that person were not his appointees. so he'll be able to say the deal state actually helped hunter biden on this and they were trying to help joe biden. >> that will be their talking point. >> but to their base that's what feeds the fire.

that's the problem i think in the end. >> what do you think? >> keep in mind in full candor, i used to work for ted stevens who was prosecuted relentlessly the end of his career and wrongly, right? i have a certain feeling about doj. i don't think this whole case helps doj's argument they are nonpartisan going by the book. even though to legal scholars they'll say the end result was going to be the same, charges were going to be pled out, gun charges dropped, that's a problem. >> i got to go. >> it wasn't that good. >> that's awesome. thanks. we'll be right back. can a can of lysol take care of my snott y sofa? can-do. mildewy tiles? can-do. these? yup, it's the can-do can. nothing kills more germs on more surfaces than lysol disinfectant spray. lysol. what it takes to protect.

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tune in tomorrow to "cnn this morning." anderson cooper will be live with the latest on this submersible tragedy and a family member of one of the titan's passengers speaks out starting at 6 a.m. eastern. thanks so much for watching tonight! our coverage continues now.

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