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>> somewhere in-between there something that could've happened to any submarine or this was a fundamental design flaw will be closer to the truth about what happened. >> we didn't remember the lesson of the titanic, the arrogance and the hubris that sent that ship to its doom. it is exactly the same thing. i think it was heartbreaking that it was so preventable. >> good morning, everyone. it has been a little more than 15 hours since we learned the five people on board the tightend submersible died in what the us coast guard called a catastrophic implosion. since then for details emerging

about those explorers who lost their lives. what might have happened on the vessel, and the warning signs that were missed. >> anderson cooper has been anchoring from st. john's newfoundland since yesterday. aced on your interviews what has been fascinating is learning about the community of deep-sea explorers. what they are saying, where they differ to some degree in regards to this tragedy. what have you been filling on this ground so far? >> certainly here in st. john's there is a lot of sadness. it is a very somber morning for many people. this is a community that lives by the sea. they have seen tragedy before. it is just a sad morning. obviously there was hope all week. now we know this catastrophic implosion happened days ago, which we just learned about late yesterday afternoon. all five people on board have

been killed. it may have been detected by the u.s. navy back on sunday. aced secret network of sensors picked up the sound of a possible implosion around the same time the summary lost contact with the mothership while descending on the expedition. they say that information was relayed immediately to the incident commander after an intense five day multinational search a deep- sea robot down pieces of the tag -- tighten on the ocean floor confirming everyone's worst fears. these are satellite images of the search that was taking place yesterday. we were told the tail cone was found about 1600 feet away from the bow the titanic. there were two separate debris fields. stockton rush was piloting the summer civil with disaster struck. with him on board was hamish harding, shahzada dawood and his 19-year-old son suleman dawood. and paul nargeolet, a renowned

diver nickname "mr. titanic" who had completed some 35 dives on the famous ship. we just spoke to his stepson in the last hour. >> when he told me that he was going back out for this expedition when i saw him in may i honestly did not think twice. it is one of those things where he has been down so much. he has been on so many different deep dives i did not bat an eye. i just said okay. have fun. i will see you in july. >> we been following the search from the start. there are ships still out on scene and they will continue to look at the debris field. >> some of them. we saw one load up. it was the one carrying the submersible that found the wreckage. other ships like the prince,

for instance, it is on his way back. the medical ships on the way back. the prince is the mothership, it is the ship that launched the tightend. it is the platform that goes in first. it is lowered in and the tightend goes off that platform down to one half hours or so to the wreckage. that one is coming back and several others. i think they are now trying to assessed what resources they keep out, what they ring back. sitting at the airport here is a deep water salvage gear that they can take out and bring a larger bits. it is not clear, because the implosion happened and the wreckage is in such areas that they will be to bring a backup. >> we talked about it before, the force of this implosion, i talked to a doctor last night who was saying the hull would've imploded at about 1500 miles per hour. >> this is maybe the saving

grace. we were hoping for a miracle. everyone here knew that may be the outcome of this, an implosion at those steps. the fact that they did not suffer. the idea that one would be down there in the dark, in the cold and running out of oxygen. it is the stuff of nightmares. the fact that they went without even knowing that it was happening is maybe some solace. i think if they are hoping to recover some of the remains, i think the families would certainly like that, that may be impossible. >> thank you very much. i want to go to cohengabe the search for survivors has ended, the search for answers is just now beginning. stockton rush admitted to breaking the rules, in his words, to build the commercial in an older interview that

surface. he was one of the five people killed. and now oceangate and its ceo are under intense scrutiny. officials are saying the vessel suffered a catastrophic explosion. gabe, what have you heard about any consequences or april into the company? >> experts say it is basically the wild west, diving in these international waters, there is little to no regulation. oceangate is now under the microscope. we know experts have been raising red flags for years about this vessel. warning it could end in to -- catastrophe. this morning stockton rush and his ill-fated titan submersible facing intense scrutiny. rush who perished in the tightend had a reputation as a visionary, but also a self proclaimed world breaker. >> i think it was macarthur who

says you are the member for the rules you break. i have broken some rules to make this. i think that i've broken with logic and good engineering behind me. >> the cofounders that he had complete eighth in rush and would've gone on the expedition himself had he had the chance. >> there is always a risk for catastrophic implosion. it is something we know about, it is something that we plan for, that we plan against. it is a known risk. >> a subcontractor for oceangate says the experimental design pass testing for the pressures that will be found at titanic depths. >> the question is if you do it repeatedly what happens? these are the source of questions that if you have a long research and development program you start answering. if you are really pushing the envelope, there is no time. you are answering those questions in real time.

>> will cohen says he wrote to rush concern oceangate was not following the same safety standards as other vessels. in a 2018 letter first obtained by the you were -- new york times he warned about the experimental approach that could have serious consequences. cnn has as the reported two former oceangate employees were not engineers severally raise safety concerns years ago about the hull of the tightend. the hull was made of carbon fiber composite, the type of material used in spacecraft. filmmaker james cameron who has made more than 30 dives himself says the danger of using this composite is known within the engineering community. >> we always understood this was the raw material because with each pressure cycle you can have progressive damage.

it is quite insidious. i think that load them into a sense of confidence and led to this tragedy. >> i interviewed stockton rush several times as a reporter and pressed him about the safety of these vessels. he told me he view them as armored vehicles. before another expedition he said to me everyone is getting back safe. we can take risk with equipment, not with people. of course many in the industry say behind-the-scenes he was actually taking big risks, even if he didn't believe it. >> gabe cohen, thank you very much. i want to talk now to someone who knows his company very well, the cofounder of oceangate who left the company in 2013. he was not involved with the submersible or expeditions. he does have minority ownership stake in the company. i appreciate you joining us and i am sorry that it is under these circumstances. obviously there have been red

flags raise. in recent years two former employees question the safety and testing specifically where it concerned the thickness of the hull. an industry leader said the company stray from industry norms by a declining rigorous safety review, adding some of this may have been avoided. do you think it could've been avoided? >> first of all, as you rightly pointed out i left the company in january 2013, before the development of titan itself. what i can tell you is at least during the four years that i was involved with the company and knew and got to work with socks and safety was always number one priority for us. for stockton in particular, he was a very strong risk manager. i believe he believed every innovation that he created, whether technologically or

within the dive operations was to both expand the capability of humanity exploring the oceans while also improving the safety of those doing it. >> you says safety was the number one concern, obviously this is a commercial venture with people paying a lot of money to do this. did you have any concerns about the carbon composite hull of this? clearly a lot of people in this industry did have concerns and the fact that it had not gone through the testing. or by industry standards. >> right. first of all i had full confidence in stockton in the design and his ability to engineer. most importantly to take it through a rigorous testing program. i had absolutely no qualms with it. what i do have qualms with is the fact that so many of us in a rush to get answers to our questions are starting to speculate without waiting for

all of the data. there are teams on site that will still be collecting data for the next few days, weeks, month. it will be a long time before we know exactly what happened. i would encourage us to hold off on speculation until we have more data to go on. >> what is not speculation is that in 2021 the company put out a press release that seem to imply boeing was involved in the design of this and of the testing at the university of washington were as well. both the university and washington and boeing have put out statement saying they were not involved in the testing of this vehicle, of the design of the vehicle. i know that you are not involved , but you do have an interest in the company. were you concerned at all about this press release making those claims? >> i don't know that particular press release.

what i can tell you is one stockton and i started the company -- >> it was also actually in a court document. >> okay. i wasn't privy to any of that. i didn't know that. what i can tell you is when we started the company in 2009 our vision was to have a small fleet of work submersibles capable of carrying five people down to at least 4000 m. titan is the end result of essentially a 14 year technology development program. a lot of different people worked on that across three submersibles. >> right, boeing worked, i believe on the cyclops. it was either boeing or washington, university of washington. i know for the tightend they rented a pool at the university of washington.

it does seem like this company was betraying it is a boeing and the university of washington were involved in the tightend itself. >> unfortunately i wasn't around then. i am not sure exactly how it was worded or what happened. i do know as you said right as i left we were co-located at one of the university of washington offices. some of their folks were actually in that area working with us. i don't know exactly what they were working on. i was not a part of the company at that point. >> the university of washington said essentially none of the personnel were working on the vehicles. they rented full space for testing, but none of the personnel were involved. i spoke to james cameron yesterday, obviously who has made 33 died. i want to play something that he told me and have you respond

if you can. >> i think there is a great, almost a real irony here which is titanic sank because the captain took a full steam into an ice feel on a moonless night with poor visibility, after he had been repeatedly warned by radio during the day that that is what was ahead of him. i think we are seeing a parallel here with unheeded warnings about a submarine that was not certified where the entire deep submergence community or not the entire committee, but a large number of them got together to write a letter to oceangate, the company, and say we believe this could lead to catastrophe. >> i am wondering what you think of what he said? an look, deep ocean exploration

is a small community. we generally all know and respect each other. james is obviously a very experienced explorer and well- regarded. as he knows and we all know, working under water in these conditions is a very risky operation. he has had his own issues on dives. that is what happens when you do these things. he himself has pushed the limits of technology and operations in pursuit of his expeditions. it kind of comes with the territory. i kind of wish we would hold off judgment and just see exactly what the data comes back with. >> so just for the record, i did put that to mr. kent last night that he himself designed and went down three times the

depths of the titanic in a vehicle he design that was experimental and did not go through the maritime safety protocols. what he says is he was willing to take the risk for himself, but whenever have passengers on board a vehicle that had gone through full safety protocol. i just want to make clear what his point was. i appreciate you joining us. i am sorry for the loss of your friend. thank you. >> thank you for having me on. >> joined me now is the senior advisor for the strategic initiatives for rms titanic which owns the exclusive savage rights to the titanic. i appreciate you joining us. based on the debris field and what the coast guard has discovered and what you know, at this point, what do you think would wrong? how much do you think this was about the carbon composite of the hull ? obviously it had made successful dives in the past. >> right. i'm with jim cameron, you have

successive pressure every dive it is pressure and release and that kind of stress could have led to this. the simple solution and what i've heard was the same thing, that they lost tracking and communication and they were over on the way to the site. the other thing that i heard was p.h. had contacted the surface ship and said there was a problem we are surfacing immediately. i cannot verify. but to me it meant something happen very quickly and the submarine, probably the simplest solution was catastrophic failure. we will see when they pick up more of the pieces or if the forensic study tells us exactly what happened. i felt bad that i was critical. i said why are we assembling this, let's check that out. but you have to check, you have

to do that jessica is a miracle did happen. they do happen. sadly in this case they didn't. >> i want to play something james cameron told me last night.[ clip playing ] >> they call it delamination when water ingress starts to force the layers of the fibers apart. theoretically you can hear it. i believe they heard it with their ears and after the sensor system in the last moments of their lives. that is quite a horrifying prospect. >> do you agree with that assessment? can you talk a little bit about that carbon composite and what the concerns about it are or explain why it is so experimental? >> let me say to that jim cameron, i've worked with the best and the brightest and jim cameron is far and above.

probably the brightest person i've ever seen not only as an incredible explorer, but also as an ocean engineer. it is amazing. i understand what he is saying. it is not a totally new material. it is lightweight and supposed to be strong. it was the application a costly concern. many people said that i would never dive in that thing. i am not getting in that thing. sadly this had a very sad ending. >> i appreciate you being with us on such an awful end result here. thank you very much. obviously a lot of questions still to be answered in what is just the beginning of the

investigation. >> before i let you go, i feel like over the course of the last 12 hours i've been watching report this out in real time. with the oceangate founder, the idea of don't speculate, let's wait until we get the data. the question is will there ever be data that can be or draw a definitive picture? what is your sense of this ongoing debate between those were trying to press you have to innovate and be willing to take the risk versus this was just far too risky? where are you on that based on who you spoken to? >> there are plenty of people innovating and pushing boundaries, james cameron is one of them. he's gone to a depth three times greater then the titanic, but he did that in a craft that he design they did not go through maritime safety protocols. that was a risk he was willing to take. as he said last night, he would not take passengers on board. this was not a pushing the boundaries of science expedition. this was the people who had paid a lot of money to go down and have an extraordinary

experience. the question is is it appropriate to be bringing paying passengers down on a vessel that has not undergone rigorous safety protocols? the reason this vessel was designed like this was so it can bring passengers down and have a big window and fit more people in. most of the submersibles, the one that james cameron was in could only fit one person, him. i think there will be questions about this whole tourism industry and the safety regulations of its and the appropriateness of it. again, if it is really pushing the boundaries of science and exploration that has a scientific backing is one thing. if it is for tourism purposes should there be different guidelines? i guess those will be some of the questions that we will try to resolve in the months and

years. >> it is the commercial aspect. this wasn't just for the sake of research, these are people who paid a lot of money and perhaps did not fully understand the risk. coming up we are going to be speaking more about this industry. the disaster is now shiningon the perils of the extreme tourism industry from the ultra- wealthy to deep-sea to also space. we will discuss after the break. cious too. just ask my old friend, kevin. nothing like enjoying a cold one while watching t the game. who's winning? no idea. real milk. real delicious. and don't forget to try some delicious, creamy lactaid ice cream. what's that mabel? (mooo) wow, smart cow! my most important kitchen tool? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neura plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators

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schedule your appointment today. >> welcome back. cnn is live in newfoundland tracking the remnants of the titan submersible that suffered a catastrophic implosion killing all five people on board. we will be back out there in just moments. for now the missing submersible captured the world's attention this week. most people will never be able to take a trip like this. each passenger paid $250,000 for a seat. oceangate catered to wealthy people who are able to afford exclusive adventures like this. it doesn't just stop with dive

into the depths of the sea. an expedition to the summit of mount everest can cost between 30,000 and $160,000. a flight into space goes for $450,000. what drives the ultra-wealthy to shell out for these risky ventures? with us now is our panel. welcome back to all of you. captain, we heard james cameron tell anderson last hour drawing the parallels between what happened to the titanic and what ultimately happened to the titan. in terms of what this disaster does to the industry moving forward what do you see? >> this is back to the future. the titanic was a technological marvel of his son. biggest, fastest, designed to be unsinkable. they felt there was no need to

have adequate lifeboats on board for the passengers. why? it is unsinkable. when that happened it led to major changes in how all countries operate on the oceans. the 1914 convention for safety of life at sea changed everything. what that did was really enable more use of the ocean because it could be done safer. had that happen before the titanic it would've been wait a minute, let's check this lifeboat thing as well as radio communications and many other things. now we have this disaster ironically and sadly in the exact same place. it is time to look again at those regulations in international waters, not on the surface but the subsurface. i also think what can we do with regulations and inspections to accomplish them at the speed of innovation? are there changes that we can make? >> the courts and the law really have an important role.

the investigation will have two aspects. there will be the forensic investigation. then there is also a need for an internal investigation. what was happening within the company? what were they warned of? what steps do they take and ignore? one of the main ways you will figure that out is through legal investigations. if there are civil lawsuits from the surviving families of the victims, i think it's very likely you are going to get internal documents in the discovery process and they could become a very important part of this process. if there is an criminal investigation investigators will be able to subpoena that information to really see what went wrong inside of the company. >> the thing that i take from what both of you guys are saying is there is always attention between business and law, between innovation and

safety. when you look at the spirit of adventure tourism, people who drive this both on the consumer and also development side, that tension is always going to exist and the boundaries will always be pushed. >> absolutely. these are risktakers, people who in many cases built their wealth, and we are talking high net worth individuals. this is $30 million or more. these are people who don't like to hear the word no and want to have this kind of experience. i think if you look at whether it is going to mount everest on a 24 private jet trip around the world, the speed aviation races around the world, going to space, all frontiersmen have a huge market. their waiting list to go to space. that costs up to $450,000 to be a private astronaut. there is a waiting list to do it and plenty with the money. the ultra high net worth group, the size of that group has grown

44% since 2017. it is a big and growing group of very rich people who want to take the risk in the name of exploration in many cases. that group has gotten bigger as well as his industry. thank you so much for hanging with us. we will talk to you a little bit later. >> over to you, anderson. >> the u.s. navy detected sound of an implosion as we know on sunday followed by days of that multinational search and rescue mission. we will speak to a retired navy diver about why we are just learning about what the navy found on sunday ahead. helping businesses both large and small, communities and the e people who live and work there grow and thrive. we're proud to callll these places home too. they're where we put down roots, and where together, we work to help move everyone's financial goals forward.

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>> welcome back. we are live at the scene of a days long massive search and rescue mission for the submersible that imploded with five people on board. this is where many of the craft involved in the search took off from. a senior navy official tells the any of the navy detected the sounds of an implosion on sunday relating that information

on seeing commanders. the sound was determined to be not definitive. joining us now is a retired u.s. navy master diver who served in that position for 32 years. david, i appreciate you joining us. the u.s. navy detected the implosion on sunday and said it was not definitive. why do you think we learned it days later? >> the words not definitive, if it was not definitive they did not report because they were under scrutiny from different elements of the press. they wanted to see if there were survivors underwater. that is why. >> when you hear people say look, this was pushing the balance of science and that is why, you know, it did not go through the maritime protocols,

going through the safety checks that other submersible vehicles go through that essentially that system cannot keep up with innovation what do you think? >> in my career i have done deep stuff. i have done with the seals and now the pr's where i worked with the mw, a great organization by the way. what happens is if you have a platform, a diving thing, whatever it is and it is not certified and you certify it in your company, that is an experimental rig. i agree with james cameron. it's not something that you take passengers on. when you look at the people that was on this cell that was missing, there was a businessman-diver that was driving, there was a

guy that was a pilot that was a big adventure. there was a father and a son billionaire and one more person. you really do not do that with an experimental rig. if you want to take the chance that you are going to die, take the chance. in the navy we do not do that. we have something that certifies all life-support equipment call the authorize for navy, which is military use that is screened. once certified it can then be used. >> it does seem like the type had made successful journeys to the titanic before, at the point that james cameron made is you can have successful journeys multiple times, but there could be degradation over time of the systems on a vehicle. again, we do not know exactly

what happened with the hull of the vehicle, but it seems like even if it had successful dives in the past over time it can wear down? >> is kind of like a close hunger where you bend, you bend, you bend and it heats up. when you flex that hull too many times you have three times of pressure pounds per square inch at the depths they were at. when you come up you don't have any except for 14.7, our atmosphere. when you flex that thing about times, it can take a small microscopic tear or anything else. if water and truth is going to rip that thing right open. i believe that is what happened. >> david gove, i appreciate your expertise. back to you guys and new york.

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>> welcome back. cnn is live in newfoundland following the catastrophic implosion of the titan submersible. at first, last night president

biden and the indian prime minister saluted the alliance between the two countries at a lavish state dinner. >> a toast to our partnership, to our people, to the possibilities that lie ahead. two great friends, two great nations and two great powers. cheers! >> to the everlasting bonds of friendship between india and the united states. cheers! >> the toes followed a day filled with the usual pomp and ceremony of the state visit and the extremely unusual site of modi taking a question from the media, responding through a translator about his crackdowns and treatment of religious minorities. he said there is a discrimination and if there are no human rights it is not a democracy. meantime, whistleblowers say the irs recommended far more

charges, including felonies against hunter biden. why they say the charges were never filed. we are live in newfoundland as we continue to learn more about the submersible that suffered a catastrophic implosion. more from here ahead. but carvana was super transparent from beginning to end, car details, financicing, every stp and therere were no surprises. well, my monthly payment did come out lower than expectcted. then i got to pick up my mustang at the vending machine and it was so fun and exciting i did a little dance. (teri laughs) trust me, financing my car with carvana was super smooth. [announcer] finance your next car with carvana today. (soft whistling) and there he is. chaz.

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the search for answers continues after the "titanic" submersible suffered a catastrophic implosion with five people onboard. back to anderson in newfoundland shortly. first, a cnn exclusive interview with former president barack obama. christiane amanpour sat down with him in athens to get his thoughts on the state of democracy in the 2024 election. watch. >> when people are getting such fundamentally different facts or what they think to be facts, and their world views are so skewed in a one direction or another, and it's very hard for democracy to work. this constant demonization of the other side, making people fearful of each other. unfortunately, i think that's going to be a problem that gets even more pronounced with the advent of a.i. and deepfakes. >> joining us to discuss the interview and more from a white house communications director,

josh griffin. josh, on that point, the question that i have often had over the course of the last several years, and in sometimes dark moments, there doesn't seem to be anything that would incentivize a deceleration of those factors former president obama is pointing to. whether it's social media, news cycles, that forces the pendulum back the other way? >> we haven't hit -- when he references a.i. and deepfakes, we have seen amusing things. that photo of the pope in the puffer jacket and everyone sort of knows this is fake. >> i did not, actually. >> yes. but we haven't seen the first news cycle where you have something of that nature that fools a large number of people and what effect that has on our politics. so, yeah, i think he is right that that's a concern. i think sometimes people overstate the extent to politics in the facts, conspiracy

theories have been around forever. people say we faked the moon landing decades ago and nasty ad hominem politics between thomas jefferson and john adams 200 years ago. this is a fact of democracy, not specifically a fact of our modern democracy and we muddled through in the past. >> the fact that information spreads at the most rapid rate ever in history. >> sometimes siloed. >> that's what i thought was interesting. if you compare to who president obama was office, he was kind of the first social media president. how much more we have now, the number of platforms, people getting their news not from traditional sources and opinion-based on the right or left unquestionably has an impact on the elections. >> >> obama was asked about the visit from the prime minister of india. she asked should he be engaged with certain leaders and he said even he to engage when he was president with leaders that

privately he might have had a different conversation. talk about the tension between the strategic necessity of some of these relationships and perhaps the political tension that creates. >> i am actually fundamentally on the side that the president absolutely should have met with prime minister modi. i went with vice president pence when we met with him in singapore in 2019. there are many democratic issues that human rights issues that india has to deal about. this is the fifth largest economy in the world and will be one of our most valuable partners. are we need this. so i think it was the right thing to do. raised some eyebrows that hunter biden was there at the state dinner. but that's another conversation. >> i think it's part of a conversation that i want to have with you guys in the sense of, first off, he is his son. i am never surprised when he is physically by the president's side. however, obviously, he is in process of a plea deal on

charges that were being weighed for several months by a u.s. attorney in delaware. also the investigation and results of an investigation and process due to whistleblowers, republicans laid out details yesterday. what are your -- what's your read on that and their call for there needs to be more investigation. perhaps this connects to the president, which has always been denied vehemently by the white house. >> i think there will be more investigation. you have claims from two irs employees saying that their efforts to push for serious charges and to vesinvestigate i certain ways were stymied by the department of justice. the irs whistleblower says that david weiss was not allowed to bring charges in washington, d.c., or in los angeles when he attempted to do so and that's something denied by david weiss and the u.s. attorney for washington, d.c., and by the attorney general. so i assume there is a fact of the matter about that question and one that congress will be able to get through with more

interviews. democrats have point out it irregulator lar to release the enter sues. it's not uncommon to have disagreements between enforcement agencies about which charges should be brought and which cases should be brought. it's difficult to prove the sort of felony tax charges against hunter biden. what you have to show that people knew what they were legally obligated to do that they didn't. so i want to see more about. but it's not terribly uncommon to played out as misdemeanors. >> the one thing you definitely know house republicans still looking into it. josh, melissa, thank you. back out to anderson cooper right now. >> reporter: phil, new insight into what could have gone wrong with the "titan" submersible that led to a catastrophic implosion. plus, we will speak to someone

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