sk crisis in russia. i'm michael smerconish. putin warns those involved in the mercenary group will be punished. p prigozhin says they killed a, quote, huge amount of his men. a long-time ally of the kremlin, he claimed troops had taken control of facilities in the russian cities of voronezh and rostov-on-don without firing a shot. one general called it a coup d'etat, but prigozhin deniesoco. there was an announced a criminal investigation of prigozhin and they were to stop and detain their leader. in an address to the nation, putin said this.

>> translator: i repeat, any internal turmoil is a mortal threat to our statehood, to us as a nation. this is a blow to russia, to our people. so our actions to defend the fatherland against such a threat will be severe. all those who deliberately chose the path of treachery, who prepared a mutiny, who chose blackmail and terrorist methods will face punishment. >> joining me to discuss is retired u.s. attorney alexander vindman, on the national security council. remember, he was the key impeachment witness who had been on trump's call with ukrainian president zelenskyy, then raised the alarm that trump appeared to make aid contingent on an investigation of joe biden and his son hunter. he is the author of the memoir "here, right matters." colonel, many are getting up to speed. let's go over the basics. who is prigozhin? >> prigozhin is a convicted criminal and, frankly, associate

of vladimir putin. he is somebody that's basically made its fortune catering to the armed forces of ukraine, catering to the armed forces of the russian federation, as well as running a private military company for more than a decade. he also runs a -- probably the most kind of well-known and prominent disinformation platform that was used to interfere in u.s. elections. he's a long-time kind of partisan for putin and quite effective with regards to this kind of, you know, disinformation and coups, because he has been instrumental in some of the unrest in central africa. >> right. americans might remember that in 2016, he was one of those, i think the number was 13 russians indicted for an attempt at election interference here in the united states. >> exactly right. what russia has done with regards to hybrid warfare and

fight in the west, they try to reduce the attribution to the state, to putin's government, by outsourcing some of the conflict. they basically start to rely on oligarchs and oligarchs developing kind of tricks and tools to fight in this hybrid warfare against the west. one of them was this disinformation enterprise that's been long running. prigozhin has been sanctioned for that. they've been playing in the internal politics of the u.s. and europe for some time. prigozhin also established this private military company, was funding it to run coups and mercenary activities out of the central african republic. he was involved in syria. when russia doesn't want to use its own troops, when russia wants to outsource to contractors, it relies on wagner, the most prominent of these kind of institutions. so wagner has been doing this for years, has some very trained

and ardent fighters coming out of russia's elite forces, the special operations forces, and the arab one forces. it is quite a capable force. during the war with ukraine, it amplifies its footprint by recruiting thousands and thousands of troops from prisons in russia and then having those troops fight and many of them, frankly, die in the donbas and eastern ukraine, most notably in the battle of bakhmut. >> is one of the sources of recent tension the fact that the russian conventional military has sought to bring wagner, this witch's brew of both special forces and prisoners, under its umbrella, and prigozhin has resisted that? >> you know, it's -- i would say for my perspective, prigozhin and the pncs, wagner, in particular, were always kind of extensions of the ministry of

defense of the security apparatus of russia. they had some autonomy, but they relied heavily on russian support, russian munitions, russian transportation assets, logistics. they were at arm's length, but they were kind of integrated. over the course of this, over the course of probably, you know, several different complications, they've distanced themselves and, frankly, been ostracized by the ministry of defense, as prigozhin has been increasingly critical of minister of defense, the chief of the general staff, and other senior leaders. so, to me, i've always perceived them to be kind of distant extensions of the state, but certainly, clearly, over the course of months and this war, they've become increasingly difficult relations. they've separated. they've gone their own different ways. prigozhin and wagner have become increasingly radicalized.

>> okay. thank you for continuing, by the way, to lay this out in bite-sized pieces that many of us can follow. what is it that prigozhin now wants? >> so my initial thought is that he's likely -- he was likely looking to replace the minister of defense, shoygu, and the chief of the general staff for incompetence and ineffectively running the war. still serving in putin's interests, basically being the good lieutenant. going after those people in putin's inner circle that have failed him. the folks that have been providing false reports. that, to me, gives precedence for, you know, lieutenants going after folks that have failed the king. in this case, that being putin. but something has been evolving. i think the fact is that prigozhin has felt a sense of impunity with his actions. he's been given enormous amount of rope. i think putin felt there was some utility in prigozhin

attacking shoygu and the general for not doing enough. with that rope, prigozhin became increasingly emboldened. i think the objectives are shiftingshift i ing. now, it's clear putin is targeting prigozhin directly. he is saying prigozhin is going to face consequences. the wagner folks that follow him are going to face consequences. it's now an existential threat for wagner to extract major concessions from the putin regime in order to survive. so this is now transitioning from, you know, what i defined as an insurrection for the first roughly 24 hours to a coup, where prigozhin will be fighting for his survival. he is no longer going to be serving as a good lieutenant to vladimir putin. potentially, he might be looking to seize power. it is early days. it is shocking, what's occurred. to me, this is a huge surprise. i was not surprised at all by russia's war against ukraine. i thought this was a distant black swan event, kind of fringe

possibility that something like this could happen. most likely from prigozhin, but it's happened and things are unfolding extremely quickly. one thing i can say is the biggest beneficiary of all this is ukraine. ukraine is going to have enormous opportunities. it is going to have -- it is going to be facing a completely incoherent russian response from the strategic standpoint, russia is extracted with defending its own territory. it is shocking. russia is losing a war and opening up a second front on its own territory, not a very, very effective strategy for winning the war in ukraine. so ukraine is likely to make huge gains, probably fight unopposed. there's early reporting that ukraine is already making big gains based on the actions of a coherent response from russia. we'll see how this unfolds, but ukraine will be a huge beneficiary to the unrest. >> colonel, help me understand, help us all understand the geog geography, the lay of the land. is rostov the objective, or is he headed for moscow?

>> so rostov was the operational objective. to me, it's quite clear why. when i was in government, when i was in moscow, i spent enormous amounts of time driving up and down the road from moscow to rostov. this was -- you know, i had a job to observe and report for the u.s. government at the beginning of this war, in 2014. i know this terrain quite well. rostov is the seat of russian military power. it is the headquarters of the southern military district. it is the joint operational command for the war in ukraine. to me, if he wanted to undermine shoygu and plant his flag, the first objective was going to be rostov. he did that very, very quickly. it took half a day to get there. there are, you know, significant reports now that columns, hundreds of vehicles potentially, are moving north, halfway to moscow, hours away

from moscow, and largely unopposed. looks like some helicopters, maybe some aviation assets have attempted to attack some of these cowboys, but prigozhin looks like he planned this pretty well. he has integrated air defense that is shooting down a russian air assets that are charged at impeding movement. he is making quick progress. what it comes down to, russia has enormous state power. even in spite of the commitments to ukraine, it has enormous forces just in broad numbers it can bring to bear. it has air power. it has, you know, paramilitary forces. it has, you know, fsb response forces, things of that nature. they're fighting a hardened military, a hardened mercenary that seems to be pretty well prepared, has the logistics in place to get all the way to moscow. what prigozhin has in his favor is surprise. the russian state is reeling from these events. it has -- prigozhin has speed

and, frankly, he has experience. prigozhin has been involved in staging coups, nurturing coups in africa. he knows how to do this. he knows that speed is essential, and to get to moscow, the kremlin, is critical. >> colonel -- >> that is what he is seizing on before the russians get their footing. >> colonel, i'm about to get a report from the white house as to the response thus far, if any, from the biden administration. a quick final question. if you were in your old job, what would you be advising the u.s. president to do now, if anything? >> so i would have, at this point, already have done contingency planning on this scenario. what happens if there is an internal fracture, either from elites or from the military? i would be looking at, you know, options off michelle y shelf on respond. the biggest concern is in this territory, there are all sorts of bases, including strategic bases. that gets me very, very nervous.

those strategic bases with strategic weapons, i would be looking very, very carefully to see if those facilities remain secure, remain in russian hands. the worst-case scenario, the fear that has plagued decision makers for generations, since the collapse of the soviet union is a -- >> understood. lieutenant vindman, we know you're traveling to kyiv. travel safely. thank you for being here. >> thank you. for months, the u.s. has been tracking the feud between the kremlin and prigozhin which has boiled over into what putin is calling an insurrection. how will the biden administration respond to these events? that's next. i hired d local tal. ifif i knew about upwork, i would hahave hired actually talented people from all over the world. instead of talentless people from all over my house.

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continuing now. cnn's breaking news coverage of the crisis in russia, where the wagner mercenary group has seized control of key military facilities in two russian cities. rostov-on-don and voronezh. president putin calling this an insurrection, vowing to punish anyone involved in treason or armed rebellion. wagner's leader, prigozhin,

rejecting calls to surrender, threatening putin's hold on power. u.s. officials are closely watching the situation. for the latest, i want to bring in white house reporter priscilla alvarez. have there been an official response from the biden administration thus far? >> reporter: well, the national security council spokesman said thaty are monitoring the situation. it says, we are monitoring the situation and will be consulting with allies and partners on these developments. as you mentioned, the white house is actively watching what is unfolding in russia. we know as of last night, president biden had been briefed on the situation, but the administration is being careful and cautious as to when to weigh in here, as this is a rapidly evolving situation. now, we also know that as of earlier this year, american officials had determined there had been a power struggle between the mercenary wagner group and the russian government. and they believed at the time that those tensions would mount.

over the course of the last few mo months, they've collected intelligence and been assessing that. now, we are seeing this power struggle play out in real time, but it indicated already that this was on the radar for the white house and something that could have ramifications for the war in ukraine. now, of course, a key part of that statement i just read to you is the discussions with allies and partners. we just received a statement from the state department that said that secretary of state antony blinken has discussed the situation in a call with g7 allies and eu counterparts. in that call, based off this statement, the secretary reiterated the u.s. support for ukraine, saying that that will remain unchanged. clearly, there are talks that are happening behind the scenes as this situation is unfolding. now, as far as the white house, we have asked for any additional information on what conversations the president may be having. we have not heard anything yet.

you can imagine this president, who has been in contact with allies throughout the conflict in ukraine, wants to be in touch with the region as this power struggle unfolds. >> i wonder when there is something to be said, whether it'll come from the president himself, whether it'll be more from the state department or perhaps even the pentagon. >> reporter: we are in wait and see mode on all those fronts. of course, we just heard from the state department minutes ago, that those conversations were happening with allies, with secretary of state antony blinken. again, white house officials are cautious on when they weigh in because this is unfolding minute by minute. we'll wait to see if she get any more today from the white house and, more importantly, from president biden himself. >> priscilla, thank you for that. up ahead, more from the rapidly escalating crisis in russia, where the wagner mercenary group has seized control of key military facilities in two cities. my next guest, granddaughter of

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during putin's pregime with the kremlin crushing dissent, how does prigozhin get away with blatant defiance? joining me is a professor of international affairs at the new school, as well as the great granddaughter of khrushchev. she wrote this, "could the wagner group chief will russia's new rasputtin," before the 1917 revolution. thank you for being here. what's the view from the group in moscow? >> thank you.

the view from the ground is very cautious, this sort of quiet hope for the better and pretending that all of it is far away and not much is going on in moscow. i went around the kremlin, worked for about two hours, and there's very few military vehicles, but the red square is closed. it's really dead shut, as if whatever is happening there is out of bounds. >> what level of knowledge, what level of information do the russian people even have about that which we're discussing today? >> they have some. they have some. in fact, the news were going on about prigozhin's statements, some of it, but only partially some of it about the special military operation. how there was no reason for it and how corruption just made it happen and so on. that part was blocked. but the part where prigozhin

says that we, the soldiers of wagner were fighting in the war and that we were attacked by the ministry of defense, and the ministry of defense is out to get us and they are the most corrupt, that part was out. that part really was broadcast to show that, you know, our great military is now being targeted by this -- by these former prisoners, that prigozhin was being in charge of. it's partial, but another thing, you can't get any other information. i'm shocked i have a signal talking to you because especially in the center where i am, around the kremlin, a lot of signals are being blocked all together. gps is not working and so on. >> we were eager to get you on the air quickly for that reason.

i understand how knowledge of the situation is not widely shared, but nevertheless, i wonder how it will impact morale among the russian troops who remain in ukraine. surely word of the wagner situation will reach them and have to have an impact on their thinking. >> indeed. and if putin is able to overcome this -- because, obviously, this kind of open mutiny shows the weakness of his military operation, the weakness of his regime -- if he is able to withstand it, actually, it can help his position. because you saw that the whole slew of politicians around him, they immediately denounced wagner, said that it's mutiny and how dare you in the middle of the war that russia is fighting for its own existence and so on. so, in fact, if he's able to overcome this, then it will be helpful for the troops rather than not helpful.

>> but, of course, the question that we all wonder is, what will be the impression, the opinion of the russian people about these events? >> absolutely. that's what i did, i did a quick study around the kremlin and on the way to the kremlin i ask people what they think. you know, it was a remarkable thing to see people are still getting married right next to the red square. i said, "aren't you afraid something is happening? there is a military vehicle right there." they were like, "oh, whatever, we already paid for the wedding." i'm sure putin, they said -- >> nina, i hope your signal stays strong, and we thank you for your exexpertise. >> is it me, or was her signal starting to fade after the observation she made, that she was surprised she was still able to be with us. okay. we've got the view from moscow. let's get the view from ukraine with ben wedeman who is standing

by now. w ben, thank you for being here. what can you report in terms of president zelenskyy's response to these events thus far? >> reporter: yeah, president zelenskyy has put out a message on social media in which he basically says russia's weakness is obvious, full scale weakness. the longer russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain and problems it will have for itself later. certainly, what we're seeing is that this invasion that began back in february of last year, that the russian leadership thought would last for a few days has turned into an utter catastrophe. in addition to the string of military defeats they've suffered, now we see these huge divisions within the various branches of the russian military, whether it's mercenaries of prigozhin or the troops of the ministry of defense, basically on the verge of fighting with one another. the ukrainians, obviously, see

this as sort of christmas in june for them. suddenly, they are in a position where the enemy that they've been fighting for so long seems sob to be falling apart in terms of their leadership. what is important to keep in mind, michael, is that prigozhin now is in control of the southern military headquarters for russia in rostov-on-don. that's the sort of command and control center for russian forces in southern ukraine. now, he says that his troops, his men are not interinterferinh the operations there, but it is hard to see how the control center can operate in the absence of the contact with the ministry of defense in moscow. it's a chaotic situation for russian forces and for the ukrainians, it is a golden opportunity. with all their troops and

equipment, much of it recently supplied from the west, ready to go, to push forward their offensive. now, the other day, we were down near the front in the areas where there are a small eight villages, 44 square miles, that the ukrainians had liberated so far. yesterday, we were in another area where we saw there's a huge concentration of troops and equipment, essentially ready to go. certainly, now is the time for the ukrainians, many believe, to push ahead with this counteroffensive. michael? >> ben, ben, to your latest point, it puts additional pressure on the united states, does it not, and our western allies to make good on the promises to the ukrainians? i'm thinking, in particular, of the f-16s which have still not been delivered but for which training is now in progress. i've got to believe that there will want to be a push to give them everything they need to exploit and take advantage of this moment in time.

>> reporter: well, michael, i think that's their dream vision, but at the moment, it takes time to get the pilots trained, to get planes here, since nobody has agreed to provide ukraine with f-16s. really, now is the moment. one of the problems, of course, at the front is that the russians do seem to have the advantage when it comes to air power. but i think what the ukrainians have on their side, to their advantage, is the fact that the russians are in a state of disarray. the leadership of the kremlin is in chaos. the ministry of defense is involved in this brewing conflict with prigozhin and his wagner mercenaries. really, the planes would be gr great, i think the ukrainians would tell you, but at the moment, they don't have time to wait for that. now is the time to strike, michael. >> ben, thank you for that report. still to come, dramatic

video just into cnn shows a russian defense ministry helicopter fired at from ground, adding pressure to an already volatile situation. russian president putin has held an iron grip on his county for 23 years, but could an insurrection led by wagner chief yevgeny prigozhin signal the beginning to the end? kurt volker is about to join me. . ♪ go betty! ♪ let's be more than o our allergies! zeize the day. with z zyrtec. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated

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plus, 48-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number more news from russia, where dramatic developments are raising questions about president vladimir putin's grip on power. putin is accusing the wagner mercenary group of an armed rebellion. the head of the wagner group, prigozhin, said his forces have taken control of military facilities in the city of rostov-on-don. he threatens to move on to moscow if russia's top general and defense minister don't meet with him. >> translator: again, we came

here. we want to receive the chief of general staff and shoygu. until they aren't here, we will be located here, blockading the city of rostov, and we'll go to moscow. >> president putin calls the alaskas by p actions by prigozhin a betrayal and a backstab to the people of russia, and those who follow him will pay the price. >> translator: all those who chose the path of trejachery, wo chose mutiny, who use blackmail and terrorist methods will face pan punishment and answer to the law and our people. >> joining me now, chief international correspondent nick paton walsh. nick, what is the view from london? >> reporter: yeah, extraordinary how fast this is indeed moving. it appears as are wagner's vehicles, we don't know how many, towards the capital moscow. that is their stated aim. prigozhin saying they're headed in that direction. initially, it seemed to remove

the top brass of russia's military, but the kind of confrontational back and forth between president putin and prigozhin we've been hearing the last hour suggests possibly, essentially, they're looking to entirely change the government of russia. if they get there, unclear, but their progress is reasonably fast at this stage. the governor of a region points out where this is. it is pretty much half to two-thirds of the way to the rostov-on-don city you're seeing pictures of, in which wagner moved into last night, heading toward moscow. it suggests a fast rate of progress. we don't know how big this column of vehicles is, but it is certainly moving pretty fast. the governor of that region says his police, his laws enforcemen bodies are doing all they can to protect the population, but he's not specific they're trying to stop this column from moving. frankly, if you were a local police officer, why would you put yourself between the seasoned fighters of the wagner group and their target of

moscow? remarkably fast, how this is developing. the european union put a crisis center together to deal with this. vladimir putin is in the kremlin, his spokesperson says, working, and he appears to make a series of odd phone calls to russia's allies and neighbors. essentially trying to canvas support or remind them he is very much in control of russia. this began, michael, important to remember, yesterday, with a lengthy speech from prigozhin who has, for months, been needling at russia's top brass for their catastrophic conduct of this war and its constant failures. the speech essentially questioned the russian act behind the war, the motivation and key tenants of putin's justification behind the tens of thousands of russian lives that have been lost to the gruesome fighting we've been seeing. also, ukrainian civilian lives and troops it is important to point out, as well. that led, it seems, to some sort of response. the wagner group saying one of its camps inside ukraine was hit by an air strike later this day. the russian ministry of defense

said it wasn't them, but that appears to have sparked what seems to be a sizable and quite well-prepared group of wagner fighters to move toward that city, ruostov-on-don. it is key, possibly the main military city in the kuhn tri, so close to the front lines russia has been involved in during the putin years. now, they are moving fast, it seems, towards the capital. incredible that we're even having this conversation, frankly, in a country which putin has prided himself as restoring order and calm to even now, through launching this disastrous invasion of choice, a essentially causing a henchman, loyal for years, prigozhin to turn and march on the capital. >> give me 30 seconds on what you made of putin's public address to his countrymen. >> reporter: angry, possibly rattled, confused, unclear how in touch with reality he is. no room really to believe he is going to offer a merciful fate to wagner fighters who turn themselves in.

certainly, it is him or prigozhin at this point, i think, if you look at the way he stood there and made comparisons to 1917 for out of world war i by russia because of the revolution. this, he sees, as a historic moment. it is one, quite frankly, he has been allowing to approach him fast over the past months. >> nick waypeyton walsh fro london, thank you for the report. more on russia. how will the actions of the wagner group's leader impact the war and putin's grip on power? form per u.s. ambassador to nato, kurt volker, joins me next to discuss. just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul!l! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie.

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continuing now, cnn's breaking news coverage of the volatile situation in russia in the wake of a rebellion by the wagner chief, prigozhin. dramatic video into cnn shows a russian defense ministry helicopter fired at from the ground. vladimir putin has been forced to admit one of his main military hubs, rostov-on-don is out of control. putin has held an iron grip on his country for 23 years. could this be the beginning of the end? joining me now to discuss this, kurt volker, former u.s. ambassador to nato who served as the special representative for ukraine negotiations from 2017 to 2019. ambassador, thank you for being here. big picture, what are we looking at? >> for one thing, you're seeing the beginning of the end of russia's war in ukraine. wagner forces, which has been the most potent force in ukraine, are now in russia, fighting against russia.

even though prigozhin says he'll keep up the war, i think they'll be fighting inside russia. any forces remaining in ukraine are not going to want to die in the trenches there, knowing it's a losing cause. i think this is beginning to unravel there. in russia, i think that is really going to be a struggle at the state versus prigozhin. i have to think the state will pull it out, but i think it's the end for putin. >> what should be and will be the nato response? >> keep watching this. we ought to help the ukrainians with types of equipment we've still not given, like long-range artillery and aircraft. now is the time for the ukrainians to really press forward as the russians are going to pull back. nato needs to make clear it is going to bring ukraine in as a member for real, not like we

said in 2008. it has to be real. stabilize ths for a better future. >> is your response the same relative to biden administration, same posture for nato? what should the president say today? >> i think he should say we stand by ukraine's sovereignty and independence. the russian war in ukraine was a mistake. it is time. we look forward to rebuilding peace to use the term reading the tea leaves one wonders what will be the response of the russian people to all of this assuming they have full knowledge of the events. >> well, i think that is a great assumption, do they really have full knowledge of the events or not. a lot goes around in russia on telegram, social media channels but it is not always accurate.

so i'm not sure that they really do know. but i do believe that everyone in russia knew that putin's language about a special military operation, and that everything was going swimmingly, they knew that was a lie. they knew it was going badly for so many reasons. the attacks we saw a couple of weeks ago, the immediate to get convicts into the military to fight on the front line, the mass conscription, the sanctions that we've seen, so everybody knew this this is not working, the only thing we didn't know is how it is going to change, thou is going to end, and i think prigozhin is the one now who has popped the bubble. >> mr. ambassador, you have been paying close attention to vladimir putin for a long time, when you look at the video and when you assess his actions, what is it that you see today? >> i see a little bit of disbelief and indecisiveness. i think that he doesn't quite know what to do, because he's never seen this kind of situation before, and it seems like prigozhin has the

initiative -- everyone around him, they are all schbdly quiet or maybe leaving town, so i think he is really perplexed now what to do. >> i guess, x the unknown, is what prigozhin wants to do, whether it is an attempt to change leadership at the top, meaning putin or among the military establishment, those he has been fighting with, for weaponry and armaments. >> well, i think it is an effort to change the military establishment. that's clear. he's made that very clear. to say they've done a terrible job prosecuting the war and he will do a better job and think about it, if he controls the power in russia, the military, the ministry of defense and intelligence services, where does that put putin? what is putin's claim to power? and i think it is ultimately to change the leadership. >> this comes i guess 16 months into the russian invasion of

ukraine, and amidst zelenskyy's counter-offensive. how can the ukraine best exploit this situation? >> move quickly. russian forces are going to be in a state of uncertainty. the volume of forces will be gone. the regular forces are probably beginning to feel that this is a failed campaign, and nobody wants to be the last soldier to die in a failed effort. so the motivation on the russian side is to stop and get out. so the ukrainians should do what they have been doing, both things they have been doing, offer the russian shoulders a way to lay down arms and surrender and urge them to get out and at the same time press forward with the military offensive to show that there is no let-up, that the ukrainian forces are going to keep moving in. >> you began by saying that you expect and hope, i imagine, that this is the beginning of the end, it would seem to me that getting the message to those russian soldiers still on the

battlefield in ukraine, about what now is taking place, between the wagner group and president putin is of paramount importance, so as to cause, you know, mental fatigue, and a lack of morale among them. how do you do that psychologically? >> i'm sure it's already happening. i'm sure the wagner group is doing that. they're communicating that to the russian military and i'm sure the ukrainians are doing that. they have lots of means through telegram channels to get things out for the russian military as well. so i think actually that that information is getting to them. >> and a final question, is this a moment for nato to, i'm including of course the united states, to push all the chips into the center of the table, in terms of that military support that we promised and have not yet delivered? >> we should have done it before this. there was no reason not to, last week, or the week before, and we should still do that.

our objective is to help ukraine end the war as quickly as possible. you know, the fewer people who die, the better. so that's what we should be trying to do. and then when ukraine has seen that russian forces have withdrawn, and there's some stable border again, we need to bring ukraine into nato quickly. because that is the one thing that russia seems to respect, that they know that they have never attacked a nato country, only in the gray zones, and so we have to close those gray zones. >> the incrementalism that has marked our support thus far seems to have been guided by a declining fear of what putin's response might be. my final question, are you concerned that putin might do something drastic, given what he's now facing? >> well, what he's now facing is a fight inside russia. so for instance, i think what you're referring to is the possible use of nuclear weapons. you think putin would actually -- >> yes. >> you think putin would

actually use nuclear weapons again a russian city or a russian military garrison, i would be very skeptical and it is not only his decision, it is the russian military that has to do that as well. now, i can't imagine that there would actually be a use of nuclear weapons against russia, and that's his real problem now, not ukraine. >> mr. ambassador, thank you so much for your expertise. we really appreciate it. >> pleasure to be with you, michael. thank you. >> thank. more in a moment. on cnn's continuing coverage of the situation in russia.

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