david just had so much energy and so many ideas. he changed the way we did presidential primary debates. he pioneered how we covered election nights, bringing the excitement of elections into the studio with video monitors and the imagic wall. david bohrman took so much pleasure in doing what he did. and in a business where people have big egos, david had a big heart. and he was beyond generous with his time and talent, not just to me. david is survived by his beloved wife, katherine, their kids, amber and harrison, and two granddaughters, sloan and paige. our hearts go out to them and to all the friends and colleagues remembering him tonight. thank you, david. you are missed. the news continues. ""cnn primetime"" with kaitlan ""cnn primetime"" with kaitlan collins starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

thanks anderson. i'm kaitlan collins. and tonight we now have the crucial evidence that is at the center of the special counsel's criminal prosecution of donald trump. you're going to hear it in just moments. this is a recording that cnn was first to report on and now has exclusively obtained. the tape of the former president talking in july of 2021 about a sensitive document that he kept after leaving the white house, acknowledging on the audio recording that it was classified and that he could not declassify it, given that he was no longer in office, and that he knew he couldn't show it to the people he was talking to, who we are told did not have security clearances. you also hear paper rustling, as if he's brandishing the paper to those in the room with him. the document in question was about a potential military strike in iran. as i noted cnn first reported on

this recording late last month. now here is the recording itself. >> these are bad, sick people. >> that was your coup, you know, against you. >> well, it started right at the -- >> when milley's talking about, oh, we're going to try to -- they were trying to do that before you were even sworn in. >> that's right. >> trying to overthrow your election. >> with milley, let me see that, i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack iran. isn't it amazing? i have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. look. this was him. they presented me this. this is off the record, but they presented me this. this was him. this was the defense department and him. >> wow. >> we looked at this. this was him. this wasn't me. this was him. all sorts of stuff. pages long. let's see here. i just -- isn't that amazing?

this totally wins my case, you know, except it is highly confidential, secret. this is secret information. but look at this. >> hillary would print that out all the time. >> she'd send it to anthony weiner, the pervert. >> yeah, he's a pervert. >> by the way, isn't that incredible. i was just saying because we were talking about it. he said, he wanted to attack iran. this was done by the military, given to me. i think we can probably -- >> we'll have to see. >> declassify that. as president i could have declassified it. now i can't. >> we have a problem. >> isn't that interesting? it's so cool. look, we're here and i -- you probably almost didn't believe me.

but now you believe me. >> no, i believed you. >> it's incredible. bring some cokes in, please. >> now i want to bring in cnn legal analyst elie honig and karen mag nif low. it is stunning to actually hear it. we nigh what he said, but what hear the audio, to hear the tone, to hear the conversation, the laughter in there, i mean, i'm not a prosecutor. i imagine this is a prosecutor's dream. >> exactly right. this is a devastating tape. this is why prosecutors love tapes so much. this is why tapes are gold to prosecutors. i used to have cases where the first question was, do you have tapes? if you do, that changes everything. we can see the difference between the black and white transcript, where the words are fairly incriminating. how it comes to life though. you hear the tone. you hear who's in the room. you hear that he means it. you hear that he's actually shuffling papers. this, to me, is the most important piece of evidence in this case. >> what did you think? >> you can tell everyone in the room knows what they're looking

at. the people who were listening to him talk were clearly impressed with and stunned with what they were showing him. there was a voice in there that said, it's secret. he said, i could have declassified it. it's very clear that they were all looking at something together that was not action for example together that was not, for example, a newspaper clipping or a magazine clipping, that they were all impressed with what this document was and that they could tell what it was. i think this really is a significant piece of evidence. i also think that because it was highlighted in jack smith's indictment, that it's possible that they have a witness in addition to the tape recording who has described what the document looked like. and don't forget classified documents have markings on them that are clearly -- that clearly indicate that they are some sort of classification. so, i wouldn't be surprised if that is also of jack smith's leave. >> do you think they may have spoken to someone who was in the room? >> yes, absolutely.

>> we know do they spoke to chairman mark milley, who trump claims it was his document they were talking about, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. we've heard that document they're referencing predated milley. it's interesting it's clear what he's talking about. even as recently as a few days ago, he is trying to say, maybe he isn't talking about a document. this is what he told fox news. >> there was no document. that was a massive amount of papers and everything else talking about iran and other things. and it may have been held up or may not, but that was not a document. i didn't have any document, per se. there was nothing to declassify. these were newspaper stories, magazine stories, and articles. >> when it comes to your documents, did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really. i would have the right to. >> what do you mean not really? >> not that i can think of. >> i mean, this tape disproves essentially everything he's been saying, does it not?

>> if you're prosecuting the case, dough a split screen of the things he said to you in the town hall and publicly and the transcript of what he's saying. i think the big question is, is there actually a document there? it sure sounds like it. i mean that both in the sense of what he's saying, you can hear papers being rustled. and you hear him say something as if secret and confidential, as if he's reading it off the paper. that's what we mean by classified markings. this is the moment prosecutors have donald trump doing something with the document, not just storing them and move them around mar-a-lago, which could be a crime in itself, but using them to influence somebody. so, it's a key piece for the prosecutors. >> if you're trump's attorneys -- and we should note he's still trying to hire a new attorney for this case specifically. how do they handle this? he's on this tape saying, it's highly confidential. secret. this is secret information. look at this. look at this, is what he's telling people in the room. then he says, as president, i

could have declassified it. the staffer responds, now we have a problem. if you're a trump defense attorney, what are you thinking when you hear this? >> don't forget, being classified or not is not an element of the crime. so, they specifically didn't charge him with it has to be classified document. they charged him with willfully possessing national defense information. so, as a defense attorney, we're going to say, do you have the document? how do we know that this is national defense information? how do we know this wasn't some other paper he was holding up that had to do with something else? how are you going to prove that was national defense information? so, it'll be interesting. he wasn't charged with that specific document, but that's part of what goes to what his intent so. so, i think they are going to potentially argue that. so, i think he's got -- they have a very tough road with trump. >> we haven't heard anything from his attorneys, but we did hear from one of his aides who said, the audiotape provides

context. they say he's speaking rhetorically and quite humorously talking about anthony weiner. and then he says, they just added this additional from trump himself. as we've been saying from the moment trump rode down the golden escalator, the president did nothing wrong. >> i'm not sure how they got interpretation from the recording. >> thank you both for help us break down that tape. joining us now is mark esper, who served as secretary of defense in the trump administration. secretary esper, thank you for joining us tonight. we wanted you to come on to talk about russia and the monumental events happening there, and we'll get to that in a moment. but given this breaking news and the stunning audio, i wonder what it's like for you to hear your former boss, former commander in chief, talking about what we are told are sensitive military documents in this matter?

>> it's stunning to hear it. it sounds familiar in some ways. talk a lot about these instances in my memoir, where i categorize how every few months or so we would come back to this issue about iran and what to do. i can say mark milley worked for me for nearly 18 months, which was most of trump's tenure that we were together. he never advocated for attacking iran. if anything, trevor, milley, and i were the reluctant warriors urging caution, urging restraint. so, that kind of is what strikes me first. but secondly, it's the nay ch nature of sharing those dalvin cook nature of sharing those documents is illegal and dangerous. that concerns me as well that such things were kept loosely around mar-a-lago. >> he told fox, there was no document but referenced newspaper stories, magazine clippings. but it sure doesn't sound like he's talking about just a magazine article there. is it clear to you?

does it sound like to you that he is holding a classified document? >> well, it sound lieks he's holding something and showing something. i don't know what it was. i think earlier it was reported some time ago that it was a four-page document, which would not have been what dod typically prepared. what we usually prepare was a one-pager that included targeting options and escalatory measures, thing lieks that. i outlined in my memoir for everybody. something like that would be a document that would generate that wow effect, if you were, by people who are unfamiliar with these types of things or classified material. >> when you were defense secretary and you talk about the experience that you two had and obviously you worked with him a lot, did you ever have concerns about how he handled classified information? were you ever worried to leave anything with him or have to tell him, don't share this with other people who aren't authorized to receive this information? >> -- bring a limited number --

hello? >> secretary -- yeah, go ahead. we can hear. i think we had a little bit of issue with the audio, but we can hear you now. we were asking, did you ever have any concerns about his handling of classified information when you were serving as secretary? >> we were generally concerned about the handling of classified material within the white house writ large. we would only bring a few copies of whatever we would present to the president because we were concerned about those things. having classified documents getting around, the two top concerns were risk to mission, what would it affect if the material was compromised. and risk to force, what would it mean to the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who might be called upon to do that mission. we always try to control that information very closely. >> when you say you were always concerned writ large about

taking a few documents, what do you mean? >> well, you would sit in a national security counsel meeting if you will, and you expect a few people and it seemed like twice that many showed up and everybody wanted a piece of paper. and frankly not everybody had a need to know. the only key people that needed to know or needed to see this were the president, of course, the vice president, the chief of staff, the national security adviser, the secretary of state. everybody else didn't need to have access to that information. but too often you would have a lot of people in those meetings. and documents, information being passed around. >> i know you've talked about your concerns about him holding office again, and you said you wouldn't work for him again. secretary, when you see the polls and that he is by far and large the republican front runner and could easily have the nation's secrets in his opossession once again, how much does that worry you? >> look, i'm very concerned. i've said that i don't believe he is fit for office. and what i've argued to my fellow republicans, and i say

this as a reagan republican is that, look, president trump had a number of policy accomplishments. you can't take that away from his administration. my argument is we have a good field of candidates right now, most of whom can advance the same core gop principles, the same policy objectives, and do so in a way that expands the republican party and wins the elections, which is something donald trump has been unable to do. i'm encouraged by the field that is out there, and i hope that soon they will send in the polls and we'll see donald trump fade away. >> of course whoever would be taking that nomination and potentially be president would have a slate of global issues to deal with, including what we have been seeing happening over the last few days. the fallout from this rebellion that happened in russia. you saw president putin coming out today. he made those very brief remarks after we hadn't seen him in public since saturday morning. he often tries to project this strong man optic.

did he look weak today? >> he looked a little unsteady to me today. and i think the message he had was that he was walking the tight rope. on one hand, he was calling the wagner group, that they were rebels, traitors in some ways. but on the other hand telling them that they're forgiven and they can go back and either join the army or go back to their homes or go back to belarus. at the same time, he was promising accountability. but still prigozhin is left to his own devices in belarus as well. so, it's very unclear what's going on. this has shaken him, shaken the country. it's going to be very interesting to see what happens in the coming days and weeks. he's now fighting a multifront war, one in ukraine and one at man, oh, man. and of course he has to deal with the west as well. >> and we'll see what happens there. and questions about the fact they do have nuclear capabilities and the instability we're seeing play out in russia. mark esper, thank you for your time and expertise on that, but also your perspective on the trump stuff as well. thank you very much.

>> thanks, kaitlan. up next, we'll have more on this breaking news, as cnn has now obtained the audio of donald trump's 2021 conversation about classified documents. we'll get perspective from democratic congresswoman and former cia analyst alissa slotkin. stay with us. we really don't want people to think of feeding food like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food, it's what gs are supposed to be eating. ♪

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donald trump discussing secret documents that he himself acknowledged he did not declassify, as he's talking about this with people who did not have security clearances. when you listen to this, once again, remember this is from july 2021, six months after donald trump left office. i was just saying because we were talking about it and you know, he said, he wanted to attack iran. >> you did. >> it's true. >> this was done by the military, given to me. >> joining us now is democratic congresswoman alissa slotkin of michigan, who is on the armed services committee, and very timely here, a former middle east analyst for the cia. i want to talk to you about russia as well. but again this breaking news here of this audio recording of the former president. when you hear him on the tape, to actually hear what he's saying, what's your reaction to that? >> my reaction is it's likely a document that was provided to

the white house under extremely classified information, using classified information, that was meant to, you know, explain to the president what would happen in a contingency, should we want to or need to go to war with iran. and i think what is important to remember is when we do this kind of planning, there are capabilities and there are intentions, right? when the military looks at what we're capable of, what we can do in a contingency. what intentions come from the white house. what do we want to do with that information? i'm with everyone else listening to this clip. it sounds like he's trying to say that the military wanted to go to war with iran, when my guess is that the document provided to the white house, full of classified information to the white house, to have a conversation. so, that's -- to me, it's like if any normal person was caught with that information in their

hands, as a tomoformer cia anal you would be locked up immediately. it's pretty troubling. >> on that note, i was reading about this former fbi analyst the other day who was sentenced to four years in prison because she kept classified documents in her home in kansas city. used to work at cia. what you just said, what would happen to someone if you were accused to do what trump did here. >> anyone who handles classified information knows you cannot take it into unclassified spaces. holding at home -- i mean, that's violation of the law. so, someone, you know, who would be accused of that kind of thing would be, you know, arrested immediately. and there would be an investigation. and the investigation would look at potential treason. i mean, i think it's treated very, very seriously.

and so this idea that something as sensitive as potential war planning or contingency operations, capabilities against an adversary, it's way beyond the average amount of classified. and i think that that -- any person other than a former president, this would be a very different conversation right now. >> how much risk does it pose? because when you hear the audio, there's a lot of laughter. trump is telling someone to bring cokes into the room. but given the gravity of what these documents -- we were told what they are. how much of a threat is that to national security, given he is waving it around, not in front of a briefer or his defense secretary. it's in front of some random autobiographers that don't have security clearances. >> i think first of all, the potential spread of that information, right? if they got it from the president, each of those people has told 20 people about what they saw. and what it speaks to is the

risk it puts on how we got that information, right? if there's classified information in there, it either speaks to -- you know, we've collected some really sensitive information about iran that you don't want getting out because fern or the way that you collected that way, the sources and methods, you don't want to burn those people or those things. but it also speaks to our capabilities, right? i don't want our adversaries knowing what we can and cannot do, knowing what we're planning. that is, to me, the real problem here. it's about giving away american secrets, not just about giving away sensitive information about iran. so, it's a problem both directions. the casualness of it, again, anyone who was raised in an environment that handles classified information, it just gives you chills how casual they're being about it. and just reflecting that they don't understand what they have in their hands. >> i want to turn to what's happening in russia because there have been major developments there today. we heard from president putin. right now, no one that i have

spoken with has confirmed where yevgeny prigozhin is, the leader of wagner. senator mark warner suggested he may be the minsk already. do you think he is threat of kidnapping, maybe of assassination, clearly how angry putin was today and how openly he's expressed that anger? >> i think even a casual observe knows, you are not safe. like i was telling people, i'm assuming he's having someone testing his food. i'm assuming prigozhin is being very careful because putin has tried to take out his enemies in london. so, i don't think this man at all feels safe, which is probably why we haven't seen much of him. and i think if you're putin, every tv station in the world is talking about how weak he looks and he's going to feel the need

to respond. the guy has got to be worried about his safety. >> do you believe he could be losing his grip on power? >> i think that might be overstated. i think this is the biggest single indicator we have that putin made a strategic error by trying to invade ukraine. and this is not what happens when an army is doing well and is functioning and having success on the battlefield. it doesn't devolve into violence like this when you're doing well. so, i think it's a big ding in his armor. but i think that's a long way from saying that kyiv is on shaky ground. i think this was breathtaking what's gone on in the last few days, and i think it just shows we don't totally understand what's happening in the inner workings of the state over there right now. >> congresswoman alissa slotkin, thank you for your time and your expertise on all things not just russia but also classified documents tonight. thanks. and stay with us. if you are just tuning in, cnn has now obtained the tape of donald trump that is at the center of special counsel jack

smith's investigation and could feature prominently at a trial. we're going to play it for you in full next. humptyumpty does it with a great fall. wonderful pistachios. t crackin'

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back to tonight's breaking story. cnn has obtained exclusive audio of former president trump in the summer of 2021 ac, six months ar he left office, discussing holding secret documents that he himself acknowledges he did not declassify. katelyn polantz is in miami, where wall st nauta will be indicted tomorrow. we'll start with this video, buzz it was you, katelyn, and i who broke this story. this is what jack smith had in his possession, this audio tape. now to hear this, the idea of how critical this evidence could be at a trial, where jurors could hear potentially trump's tone and the casual nature of the way he's talking about this, how much does that change things? >> it's fascinating because this will likely be a key piece, if

not the key piece of evidence at an eventual trial down in florida, where the jury will have the opportunity to hear just how casually the former president is discussing what he acknowledges is secret information. he says, look, this is classified. he acknowledges that now that he's out of the white house, he does not have the power to declassify. and people in the room are laughing. a staffer appearing to be egging him on. but let's take a listen to trump in his own words explaining why he would do this. >> these are bad, sick people. >> that was your coup, you know, against you. >> well, it started right at the -- >> like, when milley's talking about, oh, we're going to try to -- they were trying to do that before you were even sworn in, trying to overthrow your election. >> well, with milley, let me see that. i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to tak iran. isn't it amazing? i have a big mile of papers.

this thing just came up. look. this was him. they presented me this. this is off the record. but they presented me this. this was him. this was the defense department and him. >> wow. >> this was him. this wasn't done by me. this was him. all sorts of stuff, pages long. and let's see here. >> yeah. >> i just -- isn't that amazing. this totally wins my case, you know? except it is highly confidential. secret. this is secret information. look at this -- >> hillary would print that out all the time, you know? private email. >> send it to anthony weiner, the pervert. >> he is a pervert. >> by the way, isn't that incredible. i was just saying because we were talking about it. you know, he said, he wanted to attack iran and what -- >> you did.

>> this was done by the military, given to me. i think we can probably, right? >> i don't know. we'll have to see. try to -- >> declassify. >> yeah. >> as president i could have declassified. now i can't. >> now we have a problem. >> isn't that interesting. it's so cool. look, we're here. you probably almost didn't believe me, but now you believe me. it's incredible. bring some cokes in, please. >> and i'll reiterate, the former president knew he was being recorded there. he was being recorded by his own staffers, that he got in the habit of doing, whenever he was talking to journalists, people working on books. there were two people in the room working on an autobiography for mark meadows. there were multiple versions of this recording. he didn't have any papers per se. he told fox news he was not showing the document, but one

quote that is in this recording that is not included in the indictment is where he says, quote, these are the papers. and kaitlan, you can bet prosecutors are now going to hone in on that at any anticipating trial. >> also when he says, isn't that interesting, it's so cool. you just read the transcript. but to hear the casual nature of it. and katelyn, you're in miami because all of this is going on. cnn has obtained this recording, as walt nauta is going to be arraigned tomorrow. he wasn't arraigned the day trump was in florida because he didn't have a florida-based attorney. what's tomorrow going to look like, obviously given the question of how does this change the case? but what does tomorrow look like for walt nauta? >> we're learning of this audio, we're hearing this audio for the first time on the eve of when donald trump's codefendant, walt nauta, is going to be appearing in court, not beside donald trump or his lawyers but his own attorney, likely from the state of florida as well, to put in

his initial pleading in this case. we expect him to say he's not guilty, just as donald trump had done before. but it is a crucial start to a case for a defendant to come in, put in that pleading. but it's also a moment where walt nauta, this valet of donald trump, is going to have to start making decisions with his lawyers on what's best with him. does he want to go the whole way to trial and what to do next, as he and his team are getting evidence in this case and reviewing it. >> katelyn polantz, paula reid, thank you for reporting. president putin appeared before his country for the first time since an armed rebellion against his government came to an abrupt end on saturday night. plus, why ukraine's president says today is a happy day in his latest update on russia's invasion.

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biggest threats yet to his power since he came to power. his message, clearly one of anger. >> translator: an armed we rebellion would have been suppressed in any case. the organizers of the rebellion, despite the loss of adequacy, could not fail to understand this. they understood everything, including that they resorted to criminal acts, to divide and weaken the country. >> putin made clear that he considers the man you see here, yevgeny prigozhin, a criminal, even though the wagner chief claimed in an audio message today it was never his intent to topple the russian president, just to protest a new law that would have impacted his fighters, his mercenary fighters. cnn has the story covered across the region with matthew chance in moscow, nick paton walsh in kyiv. matthew, i want to start with you. putin was visibly angry, and he

declined to mention prigozhin's name. what's the sense of what he was trying to achieve with this speech? >> right. that was a very angry president putin that appeared on national television. and i think there's a sense in which he wants to, again, vent the anger. he's been sort of locked away for the past three days and nobody's seen him. so, this was the first time that he's gone on the internet, onto the national stage and international stage, and, you know, again, expressed how furious he is that this took place, that somebody so close to him, who was a sort of loyal ally in many ways and a very useful one over the past couple of years in the sense that yevgeny prigozhin has been, would turn against him in this way. he's also seeing his authority diminished and damaged because he's been challenged in such a public way. so, i think vladimir putin

needed to get on national television and try and take some of that authority back. he did that by saying, look, it ended in the way that it did with not much bloodshed because i personally intervened, is what he said, to make sure that the bloodshed was kept to a minimum. so, i think that was his attempt at sort of reclaiming some of his lost authority as well. >> is it clear whether or not he's going to make a change with his top military officials? i mean, we saw sergei shoigu sitting with him in a meeting just af he spoke. what's the sense that he's going to make a change with his top brass? >> well, he may well do because yevgeny prigozhin seemed to have struck a chord with many people in his complaints about the way the campaign, the war, in ukraine has been conducted. and there are many russians that agreed with yevgeny prigozhin's critique of the war, if not his

methods. you know, blaming incompetence of these administration leaders. but if putin does that quickly, that'll be seen as another sign of weakness. but i wouldn't be surprised if in the longer term he doesn't take action to fill those positions. >> matthew chance, thank you. i should point out that the russian leader reportedly remains at the kremlin, we're told. ukrainian president zelenskyy was on the front lines visiting his troops in the eastern region. just hours ago, he declared that ukrainian fighters have advanced in all front line directions. all of this is happening as ukraine is conducting a counteroffensive. nick paton walsh, of course one question here is how the ukrainians plan to take advantage of this moment on the battlefield. >> yeah, we don't know and certainly president zelenskyy possibly being rhetorical. but we are seeing over the weekend suggestions that moving forward around bakhmut. we've seen that in the past too. a new wave of ukrainian forces possibly passing over the far

west of the front lines near kherson city across the antonov ski bridge. questions being asked about how the departure of wagner forces from parts of the front line may have impacted russia's force of strength along the frontline positions. and of course 3,000 pro kremlin chechen fighters were pulled away from the front line to defend moscow. that seems to have been around a hotly contested city on the front line too. it's possible we may see weaknesses along there. the broader question, i think, for kyiv is, do you intervene now? do you throw your weight into weak positions or continue to allow the chaos to unfurl in moscow? and then perhaps in a later stage exploit those weaknesses, kaitlan. >> given the role that the wagner forces have played in russia's invasion of ukraine, if they're not there, if they don't absorb themselves into the russian military, what does the

battlefield look like without them? >> yeah, it's precarious, isn't it? because the real reason wagner had to get involved in the fight for bakhmut is because the regular russian forces were not having great success. it's fair to say wagner fighters seasoned, well equipped. that's frankly western intelligence assessment of their behavior. they are brutal too. their absence will be felt in russia's ranks. it's also fair to say they have been pulled back from front line positions, particularly around bakhmut, in the past week. the broader message is the consistent set of messages we've been hearing from yevgeny prigozhin about how badly the war is being fought by russia's top brass. that 11-minute message today contained much else to talk about, but the central thrust is how prigozhin would have done so much better since the initial invasion, had wagner been

allowed to run operations here. that will continue to reverberate around the russian soldiers, who know how bad the trenches are around and the absence are probably being felt on the front line as well. are they going to get absorbed into the russian military proper? we don't know? yevgeny prigozhin suggested only 1% or 2% took up the offer. he was clear to point out it was a protest against the military, but really you can't imagine someone launching a force of that scale toward moscow in that kind of way without thinking at some point the kremlin head is going to think they might be targeted towards him too. so, constant changes here. but the fact prigozhin is still -- still -- able to put these messages out on telegram, that's going to have a significant impact on the russian war effort. and that will work in ukraine's favorite, kaitlan. >> nick paton walsh, thank you. we're going back to our other big story tonight, in addition to what's happening in russia and the developments

there. here at home, we have a cnn exclusive. cnn has obtained the audio that is central to the special counsel's investigation. it is the former president talking on tape that he knew was being recorded about classified documents. we have political analysis, including from someone who worked for trump, coming up next. skin. and even when we metamorphosize into our new evolved form, we carry that spiririt with u. because you can take alfa romeo out of italy. but you best believe, you can't take the italy out of an alfa romeo. ♪ ♪ the biggest ideas inspire new ones.

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more now on our breaking story tonight as cnn has obtained exclusive audio of the 2021 meeting where former president trump talks about classified documents and acknowledges that they are not declassified. joining me now, mark lott or who was the special assistant to trump in the director of strategic medication for his 2020 reelection campaign. also with us as former national director, national coalition's director for the biden harris 2020 campaign actually alison. mark, i mean, you worked for trump, to hear that audio, of him talking about this so casually? i mean, what do you make of it? >> obviously we had seen the transcript, so it is just putting the audio to voice the transcript. i am not sure from a political standpoint that it is going to change much of that might from a legal i'm not a lawyer and i will let the lawyers house that went out. but from a political standpoint i don't see the changing much

at all. >> you don't think it makes it more damaging to absolutely hear him so kind of carelessly talk about information that he has tried to claim wasn't a document per se? >> i think at the end of the, day i think it is good and it's been a season -- 2016 in one respect. because you have all of these allegations, these charges against biden, you will have all of these charges and allegations against trump. the american people are probably going to wash their hands of both of them and then vote on the policies and the issues and that is the problem for joe biden. >> how do you think republicans see this? because we have seen how they have been talking and maybe they are lucky that they are on recess right now they don't are actually in washington because if hunter downplaying the transcript itself. but now when you can actually hear him say it in his own words, you, know wrestling papers around? well, unfortunately i think there is a population in the republican party that is not going to turn its back on donald trump. and because that i think republicans in washington d.c. will still play and hedge their bets on this. you don't want to get to a head

because they don't want the backlash from the republican electorate in a primary to turn against them. but i do think counter to what you were saying, i do think it is really important to hear him on tape. when we got the transcript people said, well, we need a bit more context. when we have context and hear his voice. it illuminates a little bit more and brings to life a little more about how much recklessness and carelessness he was using our national security documents. i think it is important. not just in a political sense but also for what happens in the courtroom for the special counsel to present their case. >> hearing it on tape makes it feel different because this is, he has a history with being on tape with these things. not just this, we have the audio recording with brad raffensperger, georgia secretary of state, of course access hollywood, you are working on the campaign that time. i mean the question of, i think some people look at this and even bill barr has acknowledged this, the former attorney general, that a lot of this, almost all of this is self inflicted? >> well i don't disagree with that.

but i think, you know, when a lot of people are looking at this, whether there is an audiotape or not, they are going to say, well, biden documents in the garage next to the corvette and hunter running around making international business deals had access to all of it. mike pence had documents. >> what we don't know that. and there are different allegations. i do think you can talk about carelessness with documents. but there are different allegations because trump is not just that he had them, it's that he had them and tried to not give them back. >> joe biden had them for four years according to his -- some of the reporting. but also, again, that is an argument for a court of law. and the court of public opinion, they're gonna say biden adam, pence has, them trump has them. and i am sick of hearing about all of it. what are you gonna do about securing the border? what are you gonna do about lowering gas prices are all of the other things that matter? which i think is what this election is gonna come down to. >> biden wasn't obviously and under the should note. you worked for the campaign, how do they handle this? for republicans who do try to draw a comparison between the two of them even though they are different cases? >> well i think joe biden

should stay out of this in terms of the trump indictment. this is being handled by the justice department. and he has been very clear that he doesn't weigh into the justice department matters. and i think that is important for him as the president of the united states. so while it may be comfortable politically to weigh in, professionally i think he's doing the right thing and staying out of it. >> thank you both for coming on to talk about this. tonight we have so much more to unpack as we are listening to this audio and cnn's coverage continues in just a moment. i'll always take care of you. ♪ i'm gonna hold you forever... ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ be by your side... ♪ ♪ 'll be there... ♪

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thanks so much for joining us on the breaking donald trump -- cnn's exclusive reporting office audiotape. cnn tonight starts right now. caitlin, thank you. and don't go too far. we will see you in just a couple of moments. i'm abby phillips and we begin with that major breaking news exclusive. and what is likely a key piece of evidence in the f