one of the more infamous ones is this. >> what would you do if you are elected about aleppo? >> about aleppo, and what is aleppo? >> you are getting? >> no. >> okay, also during that campaign, libertarian gary johnson could not name a foreign leader that he admired and he could not name the leader of north korea, so cnn's own allison camerota asked him to explain. >> i just want to ask you about some of the foreign policy flubs that you've had publicly lately. first there was the aleppo moment where you didn't know what aleppo was, and then you couldn't name your favorite foreign leader. so what's going on with you and foreign affairs? >> but i guess because you can -- you can dot the i's and cross the t's on foreign leaders and geographic locations, that

now somehow you're qualified to put us in that situation? hey, if that ends up to be the case, so be it. i guess i wasn't meant to be president. >> i guess he wasn't meant to be president. it seems like a good segue to our friend alisyn camerota. >> i appreciate that reminder. i have no recollection of that moment. because that was a campaign, as you well know, it does become a blur when you interview so many candidates day in and day out, abbie, as you know. >> to be fair, alisyn, i think a lot of our viewers may have forgotten that gary johnson was right up there with 15 or 16 other candidates. but now that moment will live on in infamy. thank you for bringing it to us, alisyn. we appreciate you. >> thank you for reminding me of it, abbie. great to see you, and good evening, everyone.

i'm alisyn camerota. good to see you tonight. we have exclusive cnn reporting tonight that rudy giuliani, donald trump's former lawyer, has been talking to prosecutors in the special counsel investigation into trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election. one of trump's other former lawyer, michael cohen, is here tonight with his thoughts on what giuliani is saying. plus, the former president is offering multiple explanations tonight for that audiotape of his meeting at bedminster where he showed off his reportedly secret classified documents. what does that tape reveal about donald trump's motive? our panel of legal experts weighs in. and as we know, people who cross vladimir putin tend to fall out of windows, or suffer mysterious illnesses. so what's next for yevgeny prigozhin? a long-time russian tv host tell us. let's begin with our cnn exclusive. rudy giuliani has been talking to prosecutors as part of jack smith's investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the

2020 election win of joe biden. our senior legal affairs correspondent paula reid is here. paula, great to see you. so do we know what giuliani has told investigators? >> we don't know what he said to investigators during this interview, alisyn. we do know he was accompanied by his lawyer, robert costello for this sit-down with special counsel prosecutors, but we have some idea what they might want have wanted to talk to him about. we know that late last year, he was subpoenaed for documents related to payments that he received around the time that he was filing legal challenges on behalf of former president trump, trying to overturn the results of the 2020 election. when that subpoena came when it was still a justice department investigation, before special counsel jack smith was appointed. but alisyn, once smith was appointed, giuliani didn't hear anything for over six months, and there were questions being raised about whether that meant that he was possibly a target and not just a potential witness in this investigation. so the fact that he has now sat down with prosecutors, talked to

them, presumably answered questions, that is notable. now we just got a statement from his spokesman ted goodman who said, quote, the appearance was entirely voluntary and conducted in a professional manner. >> so paula, do we know anything about the timing if the investigation is almost wrapping up? >> it does appear that way, alisyn. from all of our reporting on this side of the special counsel probe, looking at efforts to overturn the 2020 election, we always knew this was going have a longer timeline than the mar-a-lago documents probe because, look, there are more people, right, potential criminal exposure, more potential crimes. it's just a broader, more diverse array of potential criminal activity. but it does appear over the past few weeks we've seen a flurry of witnesses going before the grand jury. we've seen other activity that suggests strongly that the special counsel could be nearing a charging decision. so far he has not brought any charges related to january 6th, but appears that could be coming. it's completely unclear if rudy giuliani or former president

trump or anyone at all will definitely be charged. we've definitely seen an uptick in activity. >> we know you will keep us posted. paula reid, thank you very much. here to discuss tonight, a man who knows rudy giuliani and donald trump all too well, michael cohen, author of "revenge: how donald trump weaponized the u.s. department of justice against his critics." michael is also the host of the mea culpa podcast. also, our intelligence analyst john miller is here and former u.s. attorney harry litman. gentlemen, great to have you all here. john, rudy giuliani is fascinating because he talks a very big bold game on table tv, and then when he is under oath, in front of a judge, he often changes his tune. in case in point, we all remember on november 7th, 2020, when he stood outside of the four seasons landscaping and made all of these claims about how there was all of these fraudulent -- there was all

sorts of fraud in the 2020 election, and he had proof of it, and then ten days later, he was in court and a judge said do you have evidence of fraud? and rudy giuliani said no, i do not, your honor. >> so he has a firm grasp on what you can get away with in the public forum, which is not a crime to lie to the press. it's a bad practice, but it's not against the law. politicians do it all the time. and what you can do in court. and as an officer of the court, he understands that making those statements is, you know, if not against the law for perjury, if you know they're not true and you're making them, at least a violation of the cannons of ethics for the legal profession. so i think he understands how to change those channels, yes. >> so michael, you've seen rudy giuliani in action. what's he going to say to prosecutors? what story is he going to tell jack smith's prosecutors? >> whatever story he needs to tell to keep himself out of t he has done to so many attorneys

that have fallen by the wayside because of foolish fealty to the fe fuhror. at the end of the day, rudy doesn't want what happened to me happen to him. as you may remember, rudy made a very interesting statement. i have an insurance policy. don't worry about it. i have an insurance policy. >> remind us. what was the insurance policy supposed to be about? >> i don't remember. i think it was after they raided his home and they took the computer and his cell phones and so on. they said to him are you nervous? and he said no, i have an insurance policy. maybe this is the insurance policy. maybe now he's willing to cooperate. maybe he didn't require a subpoena. maybe he went in voluntarily because he knows if you go in voluntarily, it certainly looks better and the prosecutors who probably still have some shred of respect for him will probably give him the benefit of the doubt if they don't force his hand. >> so i'm very curious, though,

from both of you gentlemen, when he sits down with prosecutors, what is the brand of that meeting? is that a proffer session, here's what i could give you? or let me talk you out of charging me because once you hear what i have to say, you'll be swayed? >> harry? >> this is the important point. paula's detail that we really have to focus on, he goes with his lawyer. it's a proffer session that he goes and asks for on his own. but this means that smith is now in the circle, right, the last circle before trump himself. it's a piece interviewing raffensperger, really zeroing in on the false electors. giuliani is up to his neck in that. so what this is called is a queen for a day. he goes in to the prosecutors, and it's all make-believe. they can't charge him for it. this is what i can do for you. this is what i can tell you. and if they accept what he's looking for, angling for is

immunity, second to that a very light charge and sentence. but he's got give them something. what would that be? trump it seems to me. but this is really, smith, getting to just a half step away from trump himself. >> except one thing. that's assuming that it's the standard operating procedure. i know bob costello. >> right. >> and of course i know rudy giuliani. bob costello is more -- >> his attorney? >> yes, more than rudy's attorney. he is also his loyal friend. he may not be going in there as a proffer as a queen for the day. he may be going in there as support, as an adviser to him more so than being the lawyer. let's not forget -- >> totally hear you, but -- >> because costello at one point in time tried to become part of my defense team so that he could report back to rudy giuliani. look, ethics and this crew

really fall very far from the curve. >> time-out, michael. this happened in georgia. costello did the same thing and giuliani as a target. if it doesn't work that way, then whatever giuliani says can and will be used against him. the only way to do it so he is not inculpating himself and giving them the attorney is this sort of pretend session where his lawyer helps him. i'm sure he is a good friend. if he ais looking out for him, it's time to play ball and that's through a lawyer before you actually 'fess up. >> do it through a proffer. >> which is what exactly they're doing, among the reports, yeah. >> let's talk about the audiotape where we hear donald trump in his own words talking about, and it appears -- >> i'm not the only one. i'm not the only one who gets caught on tape by donald trump. >> oh, no. donald trump has a lot of audio tapes, as you well know. so today he was on fox talking what he believes that audiotape shows. here it is.

>> i said it very clearly, i had a full desk full of lots of papers and mostly newspaper articles, copies ofy ies of mag copies of stories having to do with many, many subjects. and what was said was absolutely fine and very perfectly we did nothing wrong. >> he did not say it very clearly, none of that on that tape that we heard. it was quite different. >> maybe they played him a different tape. i mean, because on that tape, he literally builds the case for the prosecution. not only is he describing a document that is supposed to be an attack plan for the united states in the event that they have to invade a specific country, which fits the pure definition of the charge, which is information regarding the national defense, but he acknowledges it's secret. he acknowledges he could have declassified when he was president, but he can't now because he's not. he basically is writing the indictment for them in the sound

bite, which given that reaction, it's just strange that his view of that conversation is so much less worrisome than it should be. >> let's talk about donald trump's motive for keeping those classified documents and not handing them back over to the national archives. what was it, michael? you know him. why did he want to keep those? >> you may remember i was on your show, right after they raided mar-a-lardo, and they took all the documents, and i turned around and said to you, it's a nefarious purpose, that he would rather burn the country down than to allow himself to be indicted and incarcerated. >> what specific purpose would he use it for? >> money, for power, in order to get out of jail free card. >> what does that mean? >> he'll turn around and say look, have i five, six copies already made of this. and if i end up indicted and in incarcerated, we're going to send these out to kim jong-un, vladimir putin, whoever it might be, mohammad bin salman.

>> bribing the justice department? >> more like extorting ining th justice department. john is 100% correct here. his understanding of what he says really exists in a whole another planet. it's a whole another sphere of nonsense that comes out of his mouth. he is talking about the newspaper. you can't declassify a newspaper. his own words, he built the case for them. >> harry, do prosecutors have to show his motive in court? do they have to figure out why he wanted these things? >> so textbook, no. nevertheless, this is a showcase audiotape in the indictment, paragraph six. even though it's not part of the charge, because this might be dissemination, it basically shows and the tape really shows viscerally what a jerk i think might be the legal term. ladies and gentlemen, need i say more after we play that tape? this is someone who cavalierly and jocularly, is more than willing to give up the crown

jewel national security classified document. it's knotts even clear he has, and it doesn't really matter. they're not charging him with dissemination, but it's nevertheless such a piece of his character. >> but i don't understand that. if he doesn't really have it, and he is just showing something else off, then it's not a crime. i can tell you right now, have i national secrets, but if i don't, it's not a crime. >> 100% correct that wouldn't be a crime, but it would be really solid evidence of the crime with which he is charged, his willingness to do whatever the hell he wants with national security documents. i think -- notice they didn't charge it. i think they had the witnesses there and did you see this, see that? and they probably didn't see it enough to absorb. it may well turn out that it's a total trumpian gesture and it doesn't matter, that that tape is still so good for showing everything he said, of course, is a lie. another nail in that coffin when he said i automatically declassify things. and ladies and gentlemen, this

is what the 12th version of this story. need we say more? this is who the defendant is. >> can i remind you of something? >> yeah. >> the fbi raided mar-a-lago, and they recovered classified top secret documents. there is a better than likely belief that the information that he was showing was what it's expected or purported to be. >> one very quick point. this is the reason they did. there was dissent within the ranks of the fbi. they got this tape. holy cow, we've got to go in. and that's why they did. >> that's why they didn't raid bedminster? >> they didn't have probable cause at the time. by the time they know about this, it's a year later. you to show a magistrate fresh, probable cause. >> thank you, gentlemen. really helpful in understanding all of this. great to see you guys. okay. so what happens next in russia? one thing is for sure, people who cross vladimir putin do not have a long life expectancy.

a former russian tv host and cnn's peter bergen tells us what that means for yevgeny prigozhin. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. (dr. aaron king) if you have diabetes, getting on dexcom is the single most important thing you can do. it eliminates painful finger sticks, helps lower a1c, and it's covered by medicare. before using the dexcom g7, i was really frustrated. all of that finger pricking and my a1c was still stuck. my diabetes was out of control. (female announcer) dexcom g7 sends your glucose numbers to your phone or dexcom receiver without painful finger sticks. the arrow shows the direction your glucose is heading--

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ukrainian president zelenskyy said russia fired rockets at kramatorsk today. after the attempted rebellion against russian president vladimir putin. the president of belarus, alexandr lukashenko now claims he convinced putin not to destroy the wagner group and its chief yevgeny prigozhin. and there is new reporting tonight on who knew about the planned rebellion before it happened. joining me now, we have cnn national security analyst peter bergen, and former russian tv host stanislaus. "the new york times" is reporting tonight that a senior russian general had advanced

knowledge of prigozhin's planned rebellion, this according to u.s. intelligence officials. does that explain why prigozhin thought he could march his wagner army into moscow? >> i think it does. and it certainly explains sort of a mystery, which is why a group by prigozhin's own account was able to get 120 miles from moscow, seemingly with almost no opposition. so it -- the fact that there were at least passive acceptance of this mutiny by senior russian generals, if this "new york times" report is correct, would help explain some of the events that we saw unfold on saturday. >> do you agree that prigozhin, if this is true, prigozhin was under the impression that some of the russian army, more of the russian army, including some of its top leaders with join his forces? >> well, i don't honestly know

what prigozhin had in mind before. but i'm absolutely positive that quite a few people not only one general had been aware of his plans. by the way, the interest thing he is actually the first russian army general who issued a video address prigozhin, and his pnc wagner calling on them to stop. and he looked very sad as he was delivering that message. he had obviously been talking to recording that message. he is not usually creating such media. but you know what? i think i'd like to share a funny meme that is currently making its rounds in the russian social media. and which will probably give you an idea how the russian public, how people are reacting to all this. the meme was called how to

explain russia to someone who isn't familiar with russia based on the happenstance of a single day. so on the weekend, the defenders of russia decided to take power in russia. subsequently, some other defendants of russia flew to kill the first defendants of russia, but they themselves were killed during the attempt. we're talking about which were shot down by prigozhin. prigozhin, a russian hero was en route to kill russian hero shoigu, defense minister, as a result, russian minister shoigu set out to kill russian hero prigozhin. simultaneously russian hero head of the russian fsb opened a criminal case against russian hero prigozhin, but immediately closed it. and that's why the main russian hero, putin first guaranteed that the traitors would all pay

a mighty penance, and then rapidly guaranteed that they would not pay a penance at all. and that's giving you an idea of how many actually very high-ranking russian heroes. >> yeah. >> russian military guys were involved. that's a joke, of course, but obviously, there is no doubt that prigozhin was not alone here. >> peter, i'm sure you followed that byzantine logic perfectly, having studied russia for as long as you have. but i think that stanislav brings up a good point, which is what happens to people who cross putin, as we know. so many of his opponents obviously have ended up dead or mysteriously poisoned or they fall off balconies. in 2015, boris nemtsov, he was the political adversary, fierce political critic, he was shot dead on a moscow bridge.

and there were witnesses. it was a very brutal assassination basically. in 2018 we all remember the father and daughter duo sergei and yulia skripal. they were poisoned after touching a doorknob at their home, and this was in a different country, in the uk. in 2022, the former chairman of the russian gas giant ended up dead after, quote, falling out of a hospital window he had criticized the ukraine war. and we all know alexei navalny, who just continues to endure these horrors at the hands of putin. he is still alive, but he has been poisoned. he is in a prison camp, et cetera. so what is going to happen to prigozhin? >> well, if you're a betting person, you would give him a pretty bad odds of let's say dying naturally in his bed. one thing about those examples that you mentioned, alisyn, in

intelligence circles you talk about plausible deniability. but i think what putin does is he has implausible deniability. you know, he kind of wants people to know that he is responsible, the kremlin is responsible. you mention boris nemtsov, he was shot just around the corner from the kremlin. and people like skripal, who was poisoned with a very exotic nerve agent, you know, when these poisons happen, they're done in such a way they couldn't possibly be some normal criminal act. it is clearly a state. and when people have looked into these, the various examples, you've given inquiries to be made. and typically, a finger is pointed at the kremlin. so prigozhin for the moment i think is okay, because after all, putin is losing the war, not winning the war in ukraine. he does need wagner group to be relatively effective. but, you know, if there will come a point where i think putin

holds grudges for a very long time. and i think prigozhin will not benefit from that. >> peter bergen, stanislav kuchar, thank you boetsch very much. it's great to have you insights tonight. >> thank you. meanwhile, the supreme court rejecting a trump-backed attempt to allow state legislators to transform american elections. the lawyer who argued the case before the court and won tells us what it means, next. comfort has free hot breakfast for the whole fam. they have waffles! and splendid pools. cannonball! book direct at choicehotels.com.

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do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. the supreme court giving a big win to voting rights today. in a 6-3 ruling, the justices decided that the north carolina supreme court did not violate the u.s. constitution when it invalidated the state's 2022 congressional map. the ruling rejected a controversial trump-backed election theory that woo have given state legislatures a limited role in reviewing election rules in federal elections. former president obama just one of the people applauding the court's ruling, saying in a statement, quote, this ruling is a resounding rejection of the far-right theory that has been peddled by election deniers and

extremists seeking to undermine our democracy. it makes clear that courts can continue defending voters rights in north carolina and in every state. joining me now is neal katyal, former acting solicitor general and host of courtside with neal katyal, the podcast. he won today's case on behalf of the voting rights group common cause. neal, great to see you. so tell us why this win is so important for the country. >> yeah, i mean, judge michael luttig, a very prominent conservative judge described this as the most important case for democracy in the 2 1/2 centuries since america's founding, and i think the reason for it is because the republican party here was pressing a legal theory that basically said state legislators can do whatever they want. they don't have to abide by the constitution. they don't have to abide by what state courts say about it. they get to basically do anything they'd like. you know, that's contrary to two centuries of checks and balances

that our system has had, but yet it sure looked before the oral argument like many of the justices were entertaining this idea. and so today in the 6-3 decision, written by the chief justice, they resoundingly threw that argument out and said this independent state legislature theory has no purchase. >> and so, neal, put this in laymen's terms for the rest of us. had you lost this case today, what would it have meant for the 2024 election? >> it would have meant state legislatures could do what they want, including possibly appointing their own electors to the electoral college as opposed to following the popular vote. it would have meant state legislatures could change the voting rules any which way they want, absentee ballots, polling hours, you name it. the number of shenanigans that could have been launched was infinite. and so what chief justice roberts said today is huh-uh.

in this country, we have the tradition of judicial review, judicial oversight over stuff, particularly things that impact our democracy. and if you think back to the 2020 election, and there were about 60 different cases that donald trump tried to bring, claiming to throw -- claiming that he won, in almost all these cases were in state courts. had this theory prevailed, all of those cases would have come out the other way. so what i think ultimately you have here is the chief justice, along with five of his colleagues, including trump-appointed justices amy coney barrett and brett kavanaugh saying huh-uh, we're drawing the line in the sand and we are going to resist efforts by state legislatures to mess with the integrity of the election, including the 2024 election. >> so in other words, was this case directly connected to january 6th and the scheme to reject joe biden's electors? >> yeah. so the same -- it's the same legal theory that a lot of the

january 6th stuff was based on, which is the idea that state legislators are in control and can call all the shots. and indeed, john eastman, who many describe as the architect of president trump's january 6th theory, even filed a brief in the u.s. supreme court in this case, trying to peddle this theory, a theory that's now been resoundingly rejected by the court. and i think one interesting thing about the case is, you know, most people thought we were going to lose this case, including people on our side. in fact, almost all the lawyers on our side for different parties tried to tell the supreme court get rid of this case. don't decide this case. you don't have jurisdiction. an those arguments were totally wrong, totally misguided, and they stand as a powerful lesson that if someone carefully studies united states supreme court decisions, litigants can win cases that stand up for our democracy. and that's what happened today. >> neal, i want to ask you about

what's happened this week. as you probably know, cnn exclusively obtained this 2021 audio recording of former president trump. he was holding a meeting at his golf club in bedminster, new jersey, and he is talking about holding, literally, in his hands classified secret documents as he describes them and showing them off to guests who did not have security clearances. what was your reaction when you heard that recording? >> that's a smoking gun. it basically blows trump's defense into smithereens. trump's basic defense has been well, i thought these documents were declassified. and on the audiotape, you hear him first of all showing these documents, which is disgusting. i mean, the idea that a former president or anyone who had a security clearance would be showing these documents is something i can't even begin to fathom. you know, americans risk their lives to generate those documents, or our allies' spies do.

you cannot treat them cavalierly. i was national security at the justice department. i can guarantee you anyone who did such a thing would not just be fired, they would be prosecuted immediately. so that's one. the second is you hear trump on the tape actually saying oh, that's a classified document. it's not declassified. and i don't have the power to declassify because i'm not the president. that throws his whole theory that he could magically declassify documents by bringing them out of the oval office to smithereens too. it was never a real legal theory. it was only a made up one, but even in the made up pretend world, donald trump doesn't even pretend to believe it. and that's what the tape says. >> i mean, you hear the people around him laughing. do you think that he put lives at danger? >> oh, 100%. it's unfathomable what he did. and that's why i'm so glad to see people like bill barr, including on your network talking about this. you know, people like former chiefs of staff john kelly and

others saying no way, this is absolutely abhorrent behavior. it's criminal behavior. >> neal, of course you're the host of the podcast courtside with neal katyal, and you have a new episode dropping tonight with john legend where you discuss the supreme court and voting rights. tell us about that. >> yeah, so basically, what i want to do is bring the supreme court and make it alive to ordinary americans. so each week i have a discussion with a nonlawyer like john legend this week or next week it will be katie couric or future ones will be jeff koons the artist, and we go through one supreme court case in detail and try and take it really seriously. because i think unfortunately the court has been caricaturized in a lot of our discourse. we want to methodically go through it, ask what the court is doing, what their moves are, and ask it a right and just decision. >> that sounds like a great lineup. can't wait to listen. neal katyal, thank you so much for being on the program tonight. and your podcast courtside is available wherever podcasts are

found. and you can sign up for a subscription @neal katyal.substack.com. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> okay, as you can see, our panel of lee carter, josh barro are standing by with their analysis of the trump tape, and so much more after this very short break. hi, i'm norma, and i lost 53 pounds on golo. once i entered menopause, i did not like the fact that i had gained body fat around my waist. and i thought, "oh, no, that can't happen." i've never had that problem. after starting golo and taking release, i immediately saw an improvement in my waistline. a lot of people expect to fall apart as they age, but since taking release, i've never felt better. thanks to golo, i'm 66 but i feel like i'm 36.

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all right. our panel is here to talk about donald trump caught on tape, talking about those classified secret documents. okay. let me start with you, coleman. so what do you hear on that tape? >> so look, we don't know whether he is necessarily really risking lives. i think that will come to light as the trial moves on. >> in revealing an iraq attack

war plan put together -- >> iran. >> iran, thank you. put together by joint chief mark milley, it just sounds like something that shouldn't be exposed to other people. >> it's absolutely wrong. it crosses a clear obvious red line. and we'll see actually what the potential consequences of that will be. we'll see about that. but the key about this is he is shooting his own best defenses in the foot. he had these legal defenses that i could have classified it, which there is truth to, i could have declassified it, but now he is shooting that defense in the foot himself. he is on tape, admitting that he didn't. that's really the key take away here. >> go ahead. >> trump keeps coming up with all of these stories about how he didn't have the document in his hand, it was newspaper clips, maybe it was a plan for a golf course is one of the things he said this week. but the thing is the purpose that the tape from 2021, that interview tape where he is talking about the iran war plan, the purpose for which that is going to be used in a criminal trial is not actually about the iran war plan. he hasn't been indicted for

possessing that document. the government never found that document. what matters than tape is he says on the tape that he didn't declassify all of these documents when he was president. he knows he can't declassify them anymore, and they're still secret and he is not supposed to possess them. it demonstrates what he knows the law was and what his legal obligations are. so the other documents the government did find, one of the things they'll have to prove is he knowingly kept them and he knew they were classified. and that tape will help demonstrate that, even if he never really was holding the iran war plan, even if he was lying in the moment about the document. he still understood that he understood important things that are important for proving he committed a crime. >> that's really interesting. let's talk about how this plays into the presidential campaign. today speaker of the house kevin mccarthy was on cnbc and talking about whether or not some of this stuff has weakened donald trump, and if he is still just as strong. so here is what he said in the morning. this is what kevin mccarthy said. >> makes it complicated if he's got all these trials and all

this stuff overhanging. >> it makes it complicated. it also helps him. >> you think he could win an election? could he win an election? >> yeah, he can. the question, is he is strongest to win? i don't know that answer. >> somehow by the afternoon he did know that answer because apparently team trump was quite unhappy with how the speaker had answered that question. so here a few hours after that is what kevin mccarthy said. and i will read it, because this was to breitbart. it says the only reason biden is using his weaponized federal government to go after donald trump because he is the strongest political opponent, as polling continues to show. just look at the numbers this morning. trump is stronger today than he was in 2016. what do you hear there? >> i hear the flip-flop that's indicative of where republican leaders are right now with donald trump. what kevin mccarthy acknowledges in the morning is pretty much common knowledge among most republican voters. there is an openness to maybe some alternatives, saying some

of these things have weighed on their support of donald trump. we saw that in the midterms there was actually a fallen nature of his relationship with their own base. even some of that has come back around to him. but what has changed in the last time since the midterms, that is not something you can say as he is looking more likely to be the nominee. you have kevin mccarthy, as he has done over and over again having to kind of crawl back to donald trump and basically politically apologize in the most open manner. i think this is for kevin mccarthy who looks weakened. but this is a person who came into the office with that hanging over him. since the day he got that speaker gavel, the trump wing of the water has put pressure on him, even as he has continued to wrack up some wins in d.c. there is a disconnect between a kevin mccarthy who at times has been underestimated legislative wise in washington, but politically, this always swings back to donald trump. he remains the center of gravity for the party, and nobody is able to block that out. >> what do you think of the

specter's verbal gymnastics between morning and afternoon? >> i think he is a politician. what he said this morning is true. donald trump might not be the strongest candidate, but he is the one that is polling the strongest right now. he is ahead of ron desantis by 30 points in this moment. 18% of republicans say they're more likely to consider him today than they were before the indictments. so i'm not sure it was donald trump's people that got to kevin mccarthy as much as people said hey, you got to be careful, because you don't want to lose that 51% of republican voters right now who are supporting donald trump. and kevin mccarthy has a very difficult job right now. he's got a whole bunch of people that are very difficult to manage. and if he says anything against donald trump, it becomes even more difficult for him to manage it. i'm not sure if it was donald trump or somebody else, but he is walking a tightrope here. i think a lot of people are saying i wish we could find a republican to stand up to donald trump. the problem is more than half of the republican voters right now are saying that's who they want. so it's a tough game. >> why does kevin mccarthy have such a slim majority in the house at this moment is the country rejected the kind of version of republicans that he

has been all in on. it's helped democrats as recently as november. so -- >> well, i think that donald trump hurt in the midterms, no question about it. but i think the bigger issue is what's happened in the supreme court and abortion. i think the fact that roe v. wade got rolled back a year ago put out more people that were going to vote republican than ever before. and i think that that is still an issue. when you think about 28% of people are saying that is going to be the primary reason they're going to vote, 90% of democrats are saying that's what's going to make them vote. 74% of independents or women are saying that's what is going to make them vote. >> let me get you guys in. what are your thoughts? >> it reminds me back late in the obama administration when john boehner was leaving the speakership and kevin mccarthy was supposed to be the heir apparent. and one of the missteps he made that made republicans nervous and they reached for paul ryan instead was he went on tv and he made these comments about how the benghazi hearings were being useful for damaging hillary clinton politically, which is

the thing you were not supposed to say. that was the political purpose, but you had to say about national security and the americans who died at benghazi. he forgot the talking point that was not a very complicated talking point. it happened here again. it wasn't that hard to remember what you're supposed to say about donald trump, where you're note supposed to express this sort of wariness. i agree with astead. i think he performed much better legislative than i expected out of him this year. but it's a pattern i see him not quite having the ability he needs to stay on message. >> a gaffe is when a politician accidentally says what they think, right? so my question is when he said that in the moment, who was he thinking of? chris christie? >> you mean who might be stronger? >> that's right. >> that's interesting. >> thank you all very much. you know what city had the worst air quality in the world today? here's a hint. it's in the u.s. we'll tell you where and why, next. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp.

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chicago made history today in a bad way. it was the most polluted city in the world, and that's because of smoke from the wildfires still raging in canada. you might remember this scene in new york just a few weeks ago. well, now the smoke is back. 80 million people from the midwest to the east coast facing air quality alerts. authorities warning residents to avoid spending long periods outside and to avoid strenuous activity, especially those with health problems like respiratory illnesses. 55 million people are also under high heat alerts in the south.

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