has had an overwhelming objective from the time he launched 85,000 troops into ukraine and that was to break nato heat was confident, in my view, he could break nato so holding natalee thogt is really critical. i don't think there unanimity in nato about whether or not to bring ukraine into the nato family now. at this moment in the middle of a war. >> those comments come after ukranian president zelenskyy made a direct appeal to president biden in an exclusive interview with aaron burnett saying in english, ukraine needs to be a part of nato quote now. you can see the full interview with president biden this sunday right here on cnn at 10 a.m. eastern. thanks so much for joining me on up front. ac 360 starts right now. >> tonight on 360, to indict or

not, special counsel jack smith looking at trump's law and seizing voting machines were discussed, we talked with trump's national security adviser how close we came to constitutional recognize crisis in ukraine around bakhmut and in ukraine around bakhmut and florida pledge of allegiance no matter who it ends up being. we dig deep near the december 2020 overoffice meeting. now there are two reasons for that, first we have the perspective tonight of someone who knows the cast of characters in the meeting and worked with many of them over the years and secondly it's worth a look because of how unprecedented that meeting was in the oval office in terms of what was on the table. the former president tweeting,

quote. that tweet which would be seen as exhibit a for allegedly inciting the mob that day, looks like the action he chose instead of another idea discussed during the meeting such as seizing voting machines and invoking martial law. former campaign manager bill told tuary 6 committee he refe to nose in favor those things as quote team crazy as opposed to team normal. representing the group n on a committee recommendegiulni be disbarred, also former national secity adviser michael flynn and patrick vern a former dot com ceo. now, hirschman during the deposition describes hi meeting

with the 60 some election court cases she and her team had already lost. >> she says the judges are corrupt. i was like, every single case that you've done, every one of them is corrupt even the ones you appointed? it got to the point the screaming was completely out there. you had people walking in late at night. it had been a long day and what they were proposing i thought was nuts. >> nuts, and now, it is also renewed focus on the man who will have to decide whether to bring january 6 charges against the former president and others. perspective from somebody who served a national security adviser, john bolton. professor bolton thanks for being here. what do you make of what this special counsel on the olivia

office meeting, does that track where you think he may be headed it. >> certainly sounds from all kinds of reports including particularly the one you mentioned the scope of the investigation very much centers on donald trump, the events in the oval office, the things that flowed from that, that led up to it involve trump personally show while there may be a lost defendants chargeded i think trump is in smith's scope. whether there's enough to indict that's a different question but in teshs of the investigation i think the focus is clearly more on trump. >> i want to play what former white house attorney told the january 6 congressional meeting about the characters in that meeting. i'll play this. >> i walked, in saw general flynn. i saw sydney powell sitting there. i was not happy to see the

people in the oval offense. >> [indistinct]. >> i don't think they were providing -- first of all, the overstock person i didn't know who this person was. the officials thing dizzy walked in and ask, who are you? he told me, don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice, and so, i did not understand how they had gotten in. >> i know former national security official hill testified you had major concerns about rudy giuliani. she quoted you sass saying he's a hand grenade who is going to blob everybody up. does it surprise you these people were able to get into the oval office? >> well it's stunning they did but no i continue think it was surprising. sounds like the bar scene in star wars, but this was not -- this was not the first time this

happened. random people had access to trump i can tell you on national security matters he would hear something from some member at mar-a-lago or somebody he met in a rope line at an event and ask us have you heard us and of course we wouldn't have but he would take it as true. he gathered information from all kinds of people whether they knew anything about what they were talking about or not and it was a fundamental flaw that many people in trump's white house tried to protect him from being put in contact with people who endangered him or who put his own political viability in danger. he just resisted every effort of people to help him out in that regard. >> it is extraordinary especially with some distance it's just weirder you as national security adviser in the white house to the president would have to contend with and navigate around random people on rope lines and god knows who,

who sad else up to him in mar-a-lago. i mean, that's incredible. >> well, it's because trump prized information that he thought was unique to him because obviously he knows more about anybody given subject than any of his advisers and i'm sure he liked to hear from people who reinforced his existing inclinations, and in this scene in the oval office he had a collection of people who were totally divorced from reality, which is about where he was at that point, hearing what he wanted to hear, and that's what kept him going. >> if he had decided it's a good idea to seize voting machines using the military, what would have happened? i mean, just in terms of the how orders are executed? would that even have gotten out -- how would that work? >> well, i think there are many people in the white house who

would have resisted that to the utmost until they were fired or resigned. then you have the question when that order goes to the pentagon what happens over there. it would have provoked or risked provoking a constitutional crisis. that was something i think ultimately would have led to real problems with trump thinking programs he could hold on. part of this is that trump never knew any limits and the closer he got to the end the more inclined he was to push beyond any limits anybody had done before. that's what was at stake at that meeting. >> i remember after the former president's june indictment in the classified documents investigation you set quote it should be tend of donald trump's political career. clearly it's still going strong, you know, as it is. if he's indicted this this 2020 election administration doubt think it would impact his support? >> i have not come to conclusion

indictments don't have had any any impact he's been indicted twice and it hasn't had an impact. i think the real question on what the election may turn on is whether the special counsel can get a trial date and hold it before the republican primary process begins. trump obviously will try to delay the trial until 2095. jack smith has asked for a trial date in december. i think that's reasonable. i think the public interest poib to an early trial. if he can't get it and this trial is delayed until after the election i very much worry about what the outcome would be. >> bavd bolton i appreciate it. >> thank. >> the former president has had a busy past few days on a social media platform launching verbal attacks on special counsel he calls degree ranged jack smith and the investigations in council bluffs iowa. what is the former president's

focus during the rally jeff? >> the president has made increasingly clear in recent weeks there's a blurred line between his legal arguments and political campaign but today he made clear there is no distinction and he is campaigning on those investigations and the indictments, all of which seem to be consuming him. >> if i weren't leading in the polls by so much, they wouldn't be indicting me. >> donald trump back on the campaign trail in iowa, trying to use the indictments and investigations surrounding him as a weapon to rally republicans to win the white house into they want to take away my freedom because i will never let them take away your freedom. >> making it clear he's being con seemed by -- consumed by the attempt. >> he's killing them.

>> before his appearance in council bluffs advisors sold cnn trump would focus on a leading political rival, florida governor ron desantis. >> he would be a total disaster. >> trump stepped on his own attack lines portraying himself as a victims of prosecutors trying to derail his candidacy. trump returned to iowa as rivals questioned his ability to win general election as they seek attention in a crowded field of candidates some contenders are talking to the airwaves. >> the radical left have chosen a culture of grievance over greatness. >> others are introducing themselves to one voter at a time. former president mike pence implored the republicans to turn the page. >> i honestly believe that different times called for different leadership. >> more than six months before

the nomination contest begins in iowa, republicans are party divided between trump excitement and trump fatigue. starling perdue is uncertain how that divide will be settled. >> there are people that are pro-trump, others are exploring other options so it would be interesting to see how it plays out. truly time will tell how it will impact the election. >> any of the other g.o.p. candidates addressing the former president's legal troubles in their campaign stops? >> anderson, they are to varying degrees. chris christie focusing on new hampshire has been bringing this up repeatedly. it's basically the sound track of his campaign. former governor of arkansas hundred shop is saying the former president is not fit to serve again, but the former

vice-president mike pence was increasingly campaigning this week in iowa really all week long urging republicans to look for new leaded ship but he tops there. the question is, as the summer months go on as the potential for more indictments intensify, the investigations continuing will these candidates be stepping up their questions about this because underlying the concern of it is his electability. can he defeat joe biden? one thing we do talking to voters, they are talking will be electability not necessarily saying trump isn't but are questioning that, but so far mid summer here, few candidates are talking directly about these legal cases. >> thank you. next, cluster munitition why

they're controversial and why president biden thinks we need them in now and in florida the new pledge candidates are told they have to sign if they want to be in it. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right messe at the right time, every time. ( ♪ ) constantontact. helping the small stantall.

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so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ (vo) when someone is diagnosed with cancer, they need support. subaru and our retailers are there to help... by providing blankets for comfort and warmth and encouraging messages of hope to help support nearly three hundred thousand patients facing cancer nationwide. we call it “the subaru love promise.” and we're proud to be the largest automotive donor to the leukemia and lymphoma society. subaru. more than a car company. >> andersom: first time since russia invaded ukraine u.s. will be delivering cluster munitions. here's a look at a version from

the weapon which can be dropped from a plane, designed to scatter smaller explosives over a large area on impact. ukraine will get cluster munitions fired by ground artillery. president biden was reluctant at first to send cluster munitions. do you know what changed his mind? >> he said this was a difficult decision to make. we heard earlier from national security adviser sullivan it was a unanimous recommendation that he go ahead with this and he described two reasons why he changed his mind. first the russians are using cluster munitions on the battlefield against the ukranians and the version that the russians are using are actually much more deadly to the area where they're being used than the version united states is going to give the ukranians

and second reason united states wants ukraine to remain in the game to continue thursday counteroffensive and are low on ammunition so united states believes they can use these cluster munitions while their building up their ammunition supply. >> what made you change your mind and decide to give them these weapons? >> two things. it was a very difficult decision on my part, and by the way, i discussed this with our allies and our friends up on the hill, and we are in a situation where ukraine continues to be brutally attacked across the board by munitions by these cluster munitions that have dud rates that are very low i mean very high that are a danger to civilians. that's number one. number two, the ukranians are

running out of ammunition, they call them .1555 millimeter weapons. this is a war relating to munitions and they're running out of those, that ammunition and we are low on it, and so what i finally did, i took the recommendation of the defense department to not permanently but to allow for this transition period where we have more .155 weapons amid the shells for the ukranians to provide them with something with a very low dud rate, which is .150. they're trying to get through those trenches and stop those tanks from rolling but it was not an easy decision and we are not significant forries of that agreement but i, it took me a while to be convinced to do it. >> it's important to note anderson that the ukranians have been asking for this type of

weaponry for months now so this didn't come out of left field there. was growing pressure on the white house to provide this type of weaponry to the ukranians and it's worth noting a few weeks ago we heard from a top defense official saying these weapons would be useful to the ukranians as they try to go after the dug-in russian positions on the battlefield so it could be useful to them not only to be able to sustain their fight their counteroffensive but until how they carry out that fight anderson. >> andersom: as the death toll continues to rise, the u.s. 500 children have been killed since the war began and warn the true number of casualties could be higher. ben went to bakhmut to see the artillery fire ukraine is directing at russian forces there. >> as soon as one ar tillie round blasts toward bakhmut, the

crew rushes to prepare for another. ukranian officials rothstein gains around the town that since last year has been the epicenter of the war. gun commander artem has been in the area for months. [speaking foreign language] >> the task of barking orders is routine. he says he is half deaf from the blasts but has sensed a change feels like they're often running away, he says, referring to the russians and then the order to fire. there's barely a let-up in the distant shelling. the russian says this gunner call sign aries is falling back. we know because they hit us much less. months ago it was scary to be here. now it's different.

on another flank, big guns are out. there is a ukranian made .155 millimeter self propelled howitzer. crane claims russian has poured more than 150,000 troops into the town, dug in deep. [speaking foreign language] >> the russians have fortified their positions and stand strong he tells me but i think that's temporary. russian soldiers captured in the battle here told us the shelling on their positions was relentless. [gunfire] is that was high explosive anti-personnel new innings fired at russian troops outside bakhmut. >> as soon as they fire, they prepare to fire again. >> ben, you spent a lot of time covering the fight in bakhmut. do things feel any different there now?

>> yes, anderson, basically since the beginning of this year i've been almost exclusively focused on bakhmut, the time i've been here. initially, you know, they were really the ukranians were on the defensive, struggling to keep the russians at bay and really waits bloody bitter battle in bakhmut but what we are seeing now is it's the russians who are on the defensive. they're the ones coming under bombardment from the ukranians and just the whole atmosphere has really changed. the only way to put it, i have to say, is that it looks like the tide outside of bakhmut is turning. >> and ben wedeman, i appreciate it. coming up next, how the high stakes primary battle between these two floridians could be shaped by the pledge their party wants them to sign, just to get on the ballot.

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>> angela governor ron desantis says he will take part in next

month's republican date in milwaukee whether or not the former president shows up. to take part he and other candidates have to pledge to support whoever wins the g.o.p. nomination in the his home state that pledge would be required to be on the republican ballot which would favor the former president if polling trends continue. this is new and not every candidate is on board. more from randy kay. >> you agree with it? >> 100 percent. >> valid tin is in favor in florida's republican party requiring 2024 candidates to sign a loyalty pledge to support the party's eventual nominee. >> if you don't do that you're a disorganized party and going to lose elections. you have your differences first you settle them and then you do it as a party. >> florida's gamestop -- g.o.p.

didn't insist on a loyalty pledge. it could get interesting former election lawyer ben ginsberg. >> this is his own state party who is giving this huge technical advantage to donald trump. so, what it means is that ron desantis really last to temper and moderate his criticism of donald trump, or it will find donald trump ron desantis doesn't mean this. he already said he's going to support me for president. >> yes, hernández who voted for trump likes desantis too. she says the party must unite behind the convenient waltd nominee whoever it is. >> donald trump needs to support desantis if desantis is the frontrunner. that's the way i feel.

>> and you wouldn't want to vote for someone who didn't sign a loyalty pledge. >> no >> ginsberg says the loyalty pledge isn't illegal or necessarily unethical. >> when it comes to party politics there are moral rules. this is more a moral gut check whether you want to try and tilt a presidential primary for a fronter. the loyalty pledge give the state's republican party party to decide who they allow on the ballot which ginsberg says could hurt voters by limiting their options. >> what if your candidate you like refused to sign a loyalty pledge? that person couldn't be on the ballot would thai be okay? >> no. >> he told cnn via email the pledge is a method to insure unity but not every republican

voter we spoke with is in favor of it. >> i do think it is takes wade our individual freedom. i think it just does. i don't know if it's necessary. >> this independent voter, who voted for trump in 2016 says florida's republican party is playing with fire. >> i think they put themselves in a position to be criticized. if they ask for a loyalty pledge the majority of the public would not perceive a problem. >> randy joins us and have any of the candidates responded to this loyalty pledge requirement? >> yes, they have anderson. former texas willurd says he won't sign the pledge because he says he went to for the donald trump if he's the nominee. chris christie has said he thinks this pledge is useless. as far as trump and ron desantis go they have been sidestepping questions whether or not they would sign this pledge, neither has said they would support the

other if he's nominee. it does steam worth noting the florida republican party is taking its cues from the republican national committee because they've asked for loyalty pledge when it comes to this primary debate. the florida g.o.p. says its pledge mirrors the language adopted by the republican national committee for that debate. >> thanks. joining us now former republican congressman adam kinzinger. christian ziegler said, i quote. so, congressman, i ask you how you respond to that. >> first off, how awful is your candidate you have to do this in the first place? look. i'll tell you i in either 2014 or 2015 chaired the national

republican committee fundraiser raised over $15 million every year. i was writing or raising over half a million dollars for the party. i wrote checks to all my county parties and supported countless can daimts i received not a single dollar from the republican party. that's okay. my job was to raise money for them, so pretending like somehow i was grifting on republican resources it's an outrageous claim it's stupid it's wrong and i think it's a chairman trying to pull the liz cheney card to stir up a fight. >> what do you think of the idea of making everybody take this pledge? >> first off it's a terrible thing about your candidates that you're like they're so bad you have to force everybody else to support them and i think it's anti-democratic, small d democratic. maybe the party has a right to do that and that as a country is

something we need to discuss, should a party have that much power. you're taking away the voice of countless citizens if somebody says i had can't get on the ballot because i'm not making fake pledge to support somebody, to me it's anti-democratic and goes to show the slide republican party continues to make into this scary authoritarian place and i think people need to push back on that whether you love donald trump or dislike donald trump nobody should be able to force somebody else ultimate vote to show up on a ballot. >> does the reasoning given by the florida g.o.p. this loyalty pledge make sense to you? >> first of all i'm outst aston what i'm hearing from adam. it gives people incentive to get

in get out take your shots but not wait around and harmed whoever will be the nominee ultimately and we have to mention that there is still some time to figure a lot of this this out. right now, the presumptive frontrunner most parties at this point are trying to prove they're still relevant to their primary voters. this is one way of doing it but it's not tend of the story. >> congressman, they're being asked to pledge to a candidate loyalty to a candidate, potential loyalty to a candidate who has been indicted already and may be indicted again. >> 100 percent. >> for the law and order party they wants considered themselves the law and order party. there's irony in that. >> that's exactly what they're trying to do. look. donald trump is probably going to be indicted more times. donald trump is probably going to have more issues and now you're forcing somebody to say i'm okay with an indicted p. i

have to support him simply because i want to be on the ballot in florida. will hurd has the right to show up on the ballot in florida even if he doesn't say i'm going to supported donald trump. this is again a party that is desperate and it's a party slide noogd authoritarianism and a republican. it's sad to see. it's heartbreaking. >> the other thing is other candidates haven't jumped in to say no way like mike pence that the loudest voices hurd and christie say they plan to be antagonist particular toward the former president so despite what people say and their actions staying in the race there's fear there. >> it does make liars or hypocrites out of people who hold their nose and say idle sign this or sign it because i'm going to be the nominee so of course idle support myself but

it just seems an odd thing. >> well, when they do the quote of liars and hypocrites i want them to say anderson cooper said that but you know i don't think it's the first time a people in a race with donald trump would eventually come around to his way of thinking or come around to siding with him. in fact some of those people are now running against him, so as i said, it's still early. this hasn't shake enout but this is an attempt by parties who have faced decline influence over the last couple of election cycles and in the meantime the republican party in particular has found that the state level that trump has essentially captured those positions, right. they've sort of booted out all the previous kind of republican figures in those states. so again, there is the action of a party where fundamentally trump and trumpism has very much kind of captured the most important figures at that particular level. >> congressman, you heard

long-time republican lawyer ben ginsberg saying the move would give advantage to president trump. do you think it does? >> yeah, because he can now say whether it's the debate stage and he has the courage to show up or a speech all those other guys will support him. so that's a way to look and say this indictment that's out there, it's so irrelevant because even all these other candidates are going to support me no matter what. it gives a huge advantage to him because people that would be voting in a republican primary that are legitimately concerned about whether the party can unify around donald trump well the party is unifying around donald trump with the loyalty pledge so it's certainly to his advantage and the biggest thing is it says that this indictment for really bad alleged crimes which i think happened, but these indictments are really no big deal because everybody is going to support me anyway. >> congressman appreciate it

audi as well. coming up casey desantis makes her first campaign trip to iowa trying to launch what her husband's campaign will become if not a national movement a national catatch freeways, many -- mamas for desantis.

>> casey desantis has a high profile role in his husband's

white house bid. she held her first solo campaign event, adopting the name moms for liberty. details from christian holmes. >> thank you for the honor to be here. >> a regular fixture on the campaign trail. >> i will go out and i will fight for ron desantis. >> florida's first lady casey desantis, has bits her own brand as a mom focused on parents rights. now she's taking her act solo headlining head event in iowa there weekend to campaign for her husband. >> he led with conviction. >> releasing this video, amplifying his message and core rhetoric. >> there's nothing he won't do

to protect our children. we are no longer silent. we are united. >> and god bless. >> once a who will news anchor in jacksonville, she is no stranger to the spotlight using her skill set and public speaking ease to campaign alongside her husband helping propel him to the u.s. house of representatives and the florida governor's mansion. >> make america great again. >> casey has always been a pillar of desantis's political campaign as has been their marriage. >> the two most important women in my life my mother was from young town and my wife is from troy. and so, our family reflects your family. >> he's a good dad. >> he's fighting for our children. >> it's a dynamic some republican vote its noticed.

>> part i think desantis is strong in is his family uni-it. he's very respect pull of his wife casey. >> his marriage with casey and relationship with his children are obviously of utmost importance. >> for casey her appearance in iowa capped a week on the campaign trail that started on 4th of july in new hampshire. >> you always keep your fingers crossed for things like this. >> a sign of things to come as desantis puts his family in front in his run for the white house. anderson a very noticeable difference between the desantis campaign strategy of utilizing casey desantis on the trail and that is his top opponent, donald trump. former first lady melad nia has only appeared by his side one time since last november.

>> still ahead this is the image that some woke up to this morning, "wall street journal" reporter evan detained in russia for a hundred days and up next we talk to the "wall street journal" editor-in-chief about efforts to bring him home. every time. ( ♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall.

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>> today marks 100 days since "wall street journal" reporter evan was detained in russia. he was arrested in march accused of espionage allegation "wall street journal" and the u.s. government deny. white house says president biden has quote no higher priority than securing his release and adviser jake sullivan confirmed there had been possible prisoner swap talks with russia but there's been no agreement. >> i do not want to give false hope. what the kremlin said earlier this week is cr correct but tho discussions have not produced clear pathway to a resolution so i cannot stand here today and tell you that we have a clearance to how we are going to get evan home. all i can tell you is we have a clear conviction and commitment

that we will do everything possible to get him home. >> joining me now editor-in-chief the "wall street journal." i understand jake sullivan met with evan's family and folks how many did that meeting go? what can you say about negotiations or how evan is doing? >> well, one of the difficult things with the situation is there's often very little to report and that's what makes it a challenge for to us keep evan's story in the public eye. you hear all sorts of things. in all honesty the progress of this situation is glacial heat remains in prison in moscow. >> anderson: is he able to communicate with the office with his family? >> we don't have direct contact with him we are able to send letters and he had can send them back but it goes through a censor, and a translator. his parents went to moscow last

time he appeared in court and wait a moving occasion for him. he appeared again in this horrible glass tank called the aquarium. it's inhumane. the mother was able to speak to him through the hole in the wall, very moving. she set for a brief moment she was just there with him with her son. she said i forgot about everything else. it's all explained in this video with them which is very moving but then she was dragged by to reality by the prison guards and forward milk hail, the father, having physical proximity to their son even in this aquarium made the difference. >> i play the video that evan's mom talked to the "wall street journal." >> i told him in one of those letters that he's my prisoner now. he has to goad read my stories, but he didn't want to listen to when he was younger. now he has to read them, and he

said don't worry about them, i love your stories, keep writing them. >> anderson: so they're not able to visit him in the prison where he is. thiesh not able to sit there. >> not they simply turn up in court when he's due in court as they have done twice now and they are able to communicate with him. i mean it's not easy forward them button last two occasions they were able to grab a few minutes to talk to him through this glass wall. >> anderson: do you know anything about the situation of his confinement? i mean the quality of it. >> i mean, we know that look. he's from what we saw of her and you had can see in the video, he's in good health. he looks a bit pale but he was clearly doing his best to keep, lift everyone's spirits. he was cheerful, clearly cracking jokes.

that is the kind of guy he is. he's not in solitary confinement. he does see other prisoners. we know he's making friends with people. he's reading. he's meditating. he's doing whatever it is takes to get through. he's a young man. he's 31. he's resilient. >> anderson: you said it's difficult to keep the public attention on it given the lack of information. one of the things "wall street journal" did which i thought was extraordinary this, was the cover of the "wall street journal" today, 100 days. >> yes. >> what is it like trying to keep your staff all the employees of the "wall street journal" informed and motivated? >> honestly, i'm so proud of them. they've been from day one they've been magnificent, really united, so much support for evan. a lot of people there know evan, a lot of them don't but they have all rallied around.

it's difficult. they've also been reporting a story about one of their own colleagues that's not always straight forward but they've been wonderful and honestly the wider community and our readers have been fantastic, really responsive but the challenge is we have and hundred days now. and nothing really has changed. he remains in prison. he's on pre-charge detention. how do you keep reminding people an innocent american jun list is behind bars in russia more doing his job? however many times i say it remains outrageous but there's a busy news jaend and to try to keep this story in the public eye is tricky but today lab good and people have rallied around this grim 100 day anniversary. >> anderson: whether i woke up, i get the paper delivered, it's such a moving image but so sickening it's been a hundred

days. emma tucker thank you. >> thank you. >> anderson: we'll be right back. i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehards enamel. recommending things that i know work.

>> anderson: programming note, you heard from cnn's