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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  July 7, 2023 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT

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. tonight on 360 to indict or not, with special council jack smith looking at trump and where
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voting machines were discussed. we talk about how close we came to a constitutional crisis. in ukraine president biden sends cluster missions to the flight. and the pledge/legions to get to the ballot, they have to promise in writing to support the nominee, no matter who it ends up being. good evening. we begin by digging deeper into the 2020 oval office meeting that jack smith's team has shown a renewed focus on. there are two reasons for that. first we have the perspective of someone who knows the cast of characters in the meeting and has worked with many of them over the years. and secondly it's worth another look simply because of how unprecedented that meeting was in the oval office in terms of what was on the table and what followed later. the president's quote big protest on dc january 6th, be there. we will be wild. that tweet would be exhibit a
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for inciting the mob there that day looks like the action he chose to take instead of the more outlandish sh ideas that were discussed during the meeting, such as seizing voting machines in the states he lost. he referred to those in favor of such things as team crazy, as opposed to teanormal. representing the fir group, lawyer cindy powell and rudy giuliani, a disciplinary committee today recoen giuliani be disbarred. also disgraced general and former sturt advisor michael flynn anverne, a ceo. on team normal, officials including acting staff mark meadows and lawyer eric sherman -- hershman. he describes the meeting including conversation with powell over the 60-some related court cases she and her team had
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already lost. >> she says, well, the judges are corrupt. and i was like "every one? every single case you have done in the country you guys lost, every one was corrupt? even ones we appointed?" i think it got to the point the screaming was completely, completely out there. people walk in -- it was late at night. it had been a long day. and what they were proposing i thought was nuts. >> nuts. and now it is also the renewed focus. the man will soon have to decide whether to bring january 6th charges against the former president and others. we get per specs from someone not in that room and one he considered national security advisor, john bolton. >> professor bolton, thanks for being here. what do you think the council jack smith is interested in the december 2020 oval office meeting? does that track with where you think he may be headed? >> well, it certainly sounds
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from all kind of reports, including particularly the one you just mentioned, that the scope of the investigation very much centers on donald trump, the events in the oval office, the things that flowed from that, things that led up to it, really all involved trump personally. so while there may be a lot of defendants who get charged, i think clearly trump is in smith's scope. now, whether there is enough to convince him and his team that they should indict, that's a different question. but in terms of the investigation, i think the focus is clearly more and more on trump. i want to play from white house council told the committee about the cast of characters who were in that actual meeting. i just want to play this. >> i walked in, i saw general flynn. i saw sydney powell sitting there. i was not happy to see the people who were in the oval office. well, again, i don't think they
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provide -- first of all, the overstock person (inaudible). actually, the first thing i did, i walked in, looked at him and said "who are you?" and he told me. i don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice. and so i didn't understand how they had gotten in. >> i know former national security official testified publicly that you had major concerns about rudy giuliani. she quoted you as saying giuliani is a hand grenade that is going to blow everybody up. were you surprised these people were able to get into the oval office. >> it's stunning that they did. but, no, i don't think it's surprising. sounds like the bar scene in star wars. but this was not -- this was not the first time this happened. random people had access to trump i can tell you on national
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security matters he would hear something from some member at mar-a-lago or somebody he met at an event and would ask us, "have you heard this?" and we wouldn't have heard it, but he would take it as true. he would gather information from people whether they knew anything or not and it was a fundamental flaw that many people in trump's white house tried to protect him from being put in contact with people who endangered him, who put his own political viability in danger. he just resisted every effort of people to help him out in that regard. >> it is extraordinary, especially with some distance. it's even just weirder that you as national security advisor in the white house to the president would have to contend with and navigate around random people on rope lines and, you know, god knows who saddles up to him in
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mar-a-lago. that's incredible. >> it's because trump prized information that he thought was unique to him because obviously he knows more about any given subject than any of his advisors. and i'm sure he liked to hear from people who had inclinations. and in this scene from the oval office we have been talking about, he had a collection of people who were totally devorsed from reality and he wanted to hear. that's what kept him going. >> if he hadn't decided it was a good idea to seize machines used by the military, what would have happened? just in terms of how orders are executed, would that even have gotten out -- would -- how would that work? >> well, i think many people in the white house who would have resisted that to the utmost until they were fired or resigned, then you have the question when that order goes to
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the pentagon, what happens over there? it would have provoked -- would have certainly possibly possibly provoked a crisis. it would have led to real problems with trump thinking perhaps he could hold on. part of this is trump had never knew any limits and the closer he got to the end, the more inclined he was to push beyond any limits anybody had done before. that's what was at stake at that meeting. >> the former president's june indictment in the investigation, you said "it should be the end of donald trump's political career." clearly is still going strong as it is. if he is indicted in this 2020 election investigation, do you think it would have any impact on his support. >> i have the conclusion it doesn't make any impact. if he gets indicted two or three
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more times, who cares. i think the real question on what the election may turn on is whether the special council can get a trial date and hold it before the republican primary process begins. trump, obviously, will try to delay the trial until 2095. who knows how far he wants to delay it. jack smith has asked for a trial date in december. i think that's reasonable. i think the public interest points to an early trial. if he can't get it and this trial is delayed until after the election, i very much worry about what the outcome would be. >> i appreciate your time. thank you. >> thank you. the former president has had a busy past few days on social media, attacking special council he calls deranged jack smith among other things. and in council bluffs, iowa, what was the president's focus during the rally, jeff? >> the president has made increasingly clear in recent
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weeks there is a blurred line between his legal arguments and his political campaign. but today he simply made clear there is no distinction. he is campaigning on those investigations and the indictments, all of which seem to be consuming him. >> if i weren't leading in the polls by so much, they wouldn't be indicting me. >> reporter: donald trump back on the campaign trail in iowa trying to use the indictments and investigation surrounding him as a weapon to rally republicans on his quest to win back the white house. >> they want to take back my freedom because i will never let them take your freedom. >> consumed by the special council's probe of his attempts to cling to power and over turn the results of the 2020. >> every time i get subpoenas, i get more. >> reporter: investigators told c nn trump would focus on a
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rival, florida governor ron desantis. >> every iowan needs to know that ron desantis totally despises iowa, ethanol. >> reporter: he portray eded him as victims for his can si. >> as they attempted to get attention, some contenders are taking to the airwaves. >> small town boy, self-made business leader. >> the radical left have chosen grievance over greatness. >> reporter: others shaking hands, introducing themselves one voter at a time. mike pence implored republicans to turn the page to avoid losing in 2024. >> oftentimes calls for different leadership. >> reporter: before the con contest begins in iowa republicans are a party divided
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between trump excitement and trump fatigue. starland purdue who runs the republican party and staying neutral say they are divided in how they are settled. >> some are donald trump, some weighing their options. it will be interesting in how it plays out. truly it will be time will tell on how it will impact the election. >> reporter: and the other gop candidates addressing the former president's legal troubles in their campaign stops? >> anderson, they are to varying degrees. chris christy focusing on new hampshire has been bringing this up repeatedly, basically his sound drabbing for his campaign and hutchison has been campaigning against his legal arguments. he says the former president is not fit to serve again. but the others are much less subtle. mike pence was increasingly campaigning this week in iowa
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really all week long urging republicans to look for new leadership. but he stops right there. he does not say specifically the legal cases agains him. but the question is as the summer months goes on as the potential for more indictments intensify, the investigations continuing, will these candidates be stepping up their questions about it? because underlying the concern of all of it is elect ability in the vote. talking to voters, they are talking about electibility. they are not saying he isn't, but questioning it again and again. so far in the middle of the summer few candidates are talking directly about these legal cases. donald trump is making his campaign all about it. >> yeah. appreciate it. thank you. next cluster emissions why president biden thinks ukraine needs them now. and the republican in
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♪ ♪ the biggest ideas inspire new ones. 30 years ago, state street created an etf that inspired the world to invest differently. it still does. what can you do with spy? ♪ ♪ . for the fist time, delivering cluster ammunition. it is a controversial decision. more than 100 countries ban cluster missions. this is a version of the lethal weapon which can be dropped from a plane or sea or ground artillery. they are designed to send on
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impact. fired by ground or artillery. president biden defends the move. collie at wood joins us from washington. so president biden was at first opposed to it. do you know what changed his mind? >> anderson, he himself said this was a difficult decision for him to make. we heard earlier today from the national security advisor jake sullivan that it was a unanimous recommendation from his national security team that he go ahead with this. and he described two reasons as to why he had changed his mind. first of all, the russians are using cluster ammunition already on the battlefield against the ukrainians. the version the russians are using are actually much more deadly to the area where they are being used than the version that the united states is going to be giving the ukrainians. and the second reason is the united states just wants ukraine to remain in the game and
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continue out their counter offensive and they are running low of ammunition. so the united states believes they can use these cluster munitions while they are able to build up their ammunition supply to be where he described it today. >> what made you change your mind and decide to give them these weapons? >> i know it was a very difficult decision on my part. and by the way, i discussed this with our allies, discussed this with our friends up on the hill and we are in a situation where ukraine continues to be brutally attacked across the board by munitions, by these cluster munitions that have dud rates that are very high and that are a danger to civilians, number one. number two, the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. the ammunition -- they call them
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.155-millimeter ammunition. this is a war relating to munitions and they are running out of that ammunition and we are low on it. so when i finally took the recommendation of the defense department to not permanently, but to allow for this transition period where we have more 155 weapons, these shells for ukrainians to provide them with something that has a low dud rate, about -- i think it's 150, which is the least likely to be -- and it is not used in civilian areas. they are trying to get through the trenches and stop those tanks from rolling. and so -- but it was not an easy decision. and we are not signatories of that agreement. but it took me a while to be convinced to do it. >> it's important to know, anderson, the ukrainians have been asking for this type of weaponry for months now. this didn't just come out of left field. there was growing pressure on
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the white house to provide this type of weaponry to the ukrainians and it's worth noting just a few weeks ago we heard from a top defense official saying these weapons would be useful to the ukrainians as they try to go after the dug-in russian positions on the battlefield. it could be useful to them not only to sustain their fight, their counter offensive, but also how they actually carry out that fight. anderson. >> collie, i would appreciate it, as they await the munitions, the death toll in the country rises, including 500 children killed since it began and the true number of casualties could be much higher. we went to see what utility they are using there. >> reporter: as soon as one artillery round blasts toward bakmud, they rush to prepare
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another. they report gains around the town that since last year has been the epicenter of the war. gun commander has been in the area for months. the task of taking down coordinates and barking orders now routine. he says he is now half deaf from the blasts. yet he has sense to change. it feels like they are often running away, he says, referring to the russians. and then the order to fire. there is barely a let up in the distant thud. the russians say this gunner, call sign aries are falling back. one or 2 months ago there was a lot of incoming. it was scary to be here. now it's different. on another flank the big guns are out. this is a buldona, the ukrainian
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made self-powered. they claim they poured as much as 50,000 troops into the town dug in deep. the russians fortified their positions and stand strong, the commander tells me, but i think that's temporary. russian soldiers captured in the battle told us the shelling on their positions was relentless. >> that was a high explosive anti-personnel munition fired at the direction of russian troops outside of bakmud. >> as soon as they fire, they prepare to fire again. >> and you spent a lot of time covering the fighting. did things feel any different there now? >> yeah, anderson, basically since the beginning of this year i have been almost exclusively
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focused on bakmud the time i have been here. additionally the ukrainians were on the defensive struggling to keep the russians at bay and really it was a bloody, bitter battle. but what we are seeing now is that it's the russians who are on the defensive. they are the ones coming under bombardment from the ukrainians and just the whole atmosphere has really changed. the only way to put it i have to say is it looks like the tide outside of backmud is turning. >> thank you. high stakes primary battle between these two floridas and what is changing to get on the ballot. that's ahead.
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. florida governor ron desantis says he will be there whether or not the former president shows up. he and another candidates will
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have to pledge to support whoever wins the gop nomination. in his home state it will be required simply to be on the republican ballot, which would favor the former president if polling trends continue. this is new and not every kennedy is on board with it. we have been talking to republicans. >> it's a complete must. >> agree with it. >> 100%. >> republican voter value enteen hernandez is 100% in favor tft republican party requiring 2024 candidates to sign a loyalty pledge to support the nominee. and if they won't sign the pledge, they won't appear on the ballot. >> if you don't do that, you are a disorganized party and you are going to lose elections. you have your settled. >> gop didn't insist on a loyalty pledge this cycle. now that three floridians on the
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ballot, it could get interesting. former election lawyer. >> this is his own state party who is giving this huge tactical advantage to donald trump. so what it means is that ron desantis really has to temper and moderate his criticism of donald trump or he will find donald trump saying ron doesn't really mean this. he has already said he is going to support me for president, so don't take his criticism seriously. >> yes, hernandez voted for trump twice, along with her husband likes desantis too. they have to unite behind the nominee, no matter who it is. >> donald trump needs to support desantis. he is the front runner. that's what i feel. >> and you wouldn't vote for somebody that didn't sign the
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pledge. >> no, i wouldn't. >> reporter: the pledge is not illegal or necessarily unethical. >> when it comes to politics, there are a few ethical rules. this is more a moral gut check issue for party leaders about what do you want to try and tilt a presidential primary for a front runner. >> the loyalty pledge gives the states republican party the power to decide who they will allow on the bat loll, which ginsburg says will limit the voters on limiting the options they have. >> what if your candidate you like refuses to sign a loyalty pledge, would not be on the ballot, would that be okay with you? >> no, it wouldn't. >> the pledge is to ensure maximum immunity for the 2024 election. however not all are in favor of it. >> it take away our individual
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freedom. i think it does. >> this independent voter voted for trump in 2016 says florida's republican party is playing with fire. >> i think they put this over their position to be criticized. if they didn't ask for a loyalty pledge, the majority of the public would not perceive there is a problem. and randy joins us. have any of the candidates responded to the loyalty pledge requirement? >> yeah, they have, anderson. a former texas rep said he will not sign the pledge, not because he won't support a nominee, but donald trump if he is a nominee. chris christy thinks this is useless. as far as trump and desantis go, they have been side stepping whether they would sign and that they would support the other if they became nominee. it does seem like the florida republican party is taking its cues from the republican
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national exit tee because they too have asked for a pledge when it comes to the debate. in fact, the gop said the pledge mirrors the language adopted by the republican national committee for that first debate, anderson. joining us now, former congressman, and cornish. i shou mention in an e-mail christian ziegler said the days of outparty grifters such as chi knee against that team must end. i will ask you how you respond to that. >> i mean, first off, how awful is your candidate that you have to do this in the first place. but, look, i will tell you this. i am either 2014, 2015 i chaired the national committee fundraiser, raised over $15 million every year. i was writing or raising over half a million dollars for the
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party. i wrote checks to all of my county parties and supported countless candidates. i received not a single dollar from the republican party. that's okay. my job was to raise money from them. so to say i was grifting on republican sources, it's outrageous, stupid and wrong. and froongly frankly this is a chairman out on his skis trying to pull the liz chaney to fire up the right. >> what do you think about the idea of making everybody have this pledge? >> well, first off, it says terrible things about your candidates, that you are like they are so bad that you have to try to force everybody else to support them. and i think it's anti-democrat, look, maybe a party has a right to do that. and that as a country is something we need to discuss, should a party have that much power. you are taking away the voice of countless citizens if somebody simply says i can't get on the
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ballot because i'm not making a fake pledge to support somebody, to me it's anti-freedom, anti-democrat and it goes to show the slide the republican party continuing to make in this scary authoritarian place. i think they will need to push back on that whether you love donald trump or dislike donald trump, nobody should be forced to vote just to show up on a ballot. >> does the reasoning given by the florida gop for this loyalty, does it make sense to you. >> first of all, i'm astounding what i'm hearing from adam and reflects the context of how much the party has changed. no matter what they say publicly, one of the motivations is obviously to consolidate the race and to give people incentive to kind of get in, get out, take your shots or not. but not dally around and harm whoever will be the nominee ultimately. and we have to mention there is
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still time here to figure a lot of this out. there is still other charges, possible indictments that we may see around right now, the presumptive front runner. so most parties at this point are trying to prove they are still relevant to their primary voters. this is one way of doing it, but not the end of the story. >> also, congressman, they are being asked to pledge to a candidate -- loyalty to a candidate, potential loyalty to a candidate who is indicted already and may be indicted again. >> 100%. >> the party once considered themselves the law and order party, there is some irony in that. >> that's what they are trying to do. donald trump will be indicted more times and donald trump may have more issues. and now you are saying i am okay with an indicted president, i have to support him to be on the ballot. will hurshed has a right to show
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up, even if he doesn't say i'm going to support donald trump. this is again a party that is desperate and it's a party that is really sliding into authoritarianism. and as a republican, it's hard to see. >> the other thing is the other candidates haven't jumped in to say no way, like mike pence or whoever. the largest voice will be heard and both candidates have staked out ground saying they plan to be antagonistic toward the former president. so despite what people say and despite the actions to stay in the race, there is a lot of fear there. >> also it does make liars or hypocrites out of people who, you know, hold their nose and say, oh, yeah, sure, whatever, i will sign this or make the argument i will sign this because i will be the nominee and of course i will support myself. but it just seems an odd thing. >> well, when they do the quote of liars and hypocrites, i want them to say anderson cooper said
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that. but i don't think it's the first time people in a race with donald trump would eventually come around his way of thinking or come around to siding with him. in fact, some of these people are now running against him. so as i said, it's still early. this hasn't shaken out. but this is an attempt by parties who have faced declining influence over the last couple of election cycles. and in the meantime the rep party in particular has found the state level trump has essentially captured those positions, right, they have sort of booted out all the previous kind of republican figures in those states. and so, again, this is the action of a party where fundamentally trump and trumpism has very much captured the most important figures at that particular level. >> councilman, you heard long time lawyer ben ginsburg said it will give a huge advantage to former president trump.
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do you think it does? >> well, yeah. look, he can now say and whether it's a debate stage if he actually has the courage to show up, or a speech. all these other guys will support them. when i beat them, they are going to be on board and support me. that's a way to look and say this indictment out there is so irrelevant because even these other candidates are going to support me no matter what. it gives a huge advantage to him because people voting in the republican primary that are legitimately concerned about whether the party can unify around donald trump. well, they are unifying around donald trump with the loyalty pledge. it's certainly to his advantage and the big thing is it says this indictment for really bad crimes, alleged crimes which i think happen, but these indictments are no big deal because, look, everybody is going to support me anyway. >> thank you so much. have a good weekend. coming up next, casey desantis makes her first campaign trip
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and what her husband's campaign will move into a catch phrase, mamas for desantis. like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food, it's what dogs are supposed to be eating.
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. casey desantis has a big role in her husband's white house bid. she had her first campaign role in iowa, conservative groups for moms in liberty. mrs. desantis is launching mamas for desantis. kristin holms. >> thank you for the honor to be here. >> reporter: a regular fixture on the campaign trail. >> as long as i have breath in my body, i will fight for ron desantis.
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. >> as has been their marriage. >> two important women in my life, my mother is from youngs town and my wife from troy. my family reflects your family. >> he is a good dad. he is fighting for our children just as much as he is fighting
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for your families. >> it's a dynamic some voters have noticed. >> parts that the desantiss is strong in is his family unit. his wife casey is very respectful of her and just loves her. >> his relationship with casey and his children are obviously of utmost importance. >> for casey desantis, her solo experience in iowa capped a week that started with a pair of 4th of july parades in new hampshire, where she and her husband was joined by their three children. >> they are usually well behaved. >> and anderson, a very noticeable difference of desantis's strategy in using casey and that of donald trump, the first lady has been almost nonexistent this
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campaign cycle, only appearing by his side one time and that is when he announced his third presidential bid last december. still ahead, this is the image someone woke up to this morning. he has now been detained for 100 days. next we will talk to the journal's and the efforts to bring him home. you have reached your destination. one more? ♪ one more time ♪ turn right on to western avenu. id. light in the all-electric id.4. it's the little things, it's a vw.
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sales tax. gas tax. californians pay some of the highest taxes in the nation. but now lawmakers are proposing a so-called “link tax” that would charge websites every time they link to a news article online. experts warn it could undermine the open internet, punish local newspapers, while subsidizing hedge funds and big media corporations. so tell lawmakers: oppose ab886, because another new tax is the last thing we need. paid for by ccia.
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today marks 100 days since the wall street journal reporter was detained in russia, arrested in march while on a reporting trip and is accused of espionage, a accusation that the wall street journal and the united states government deny. resident biden has no higher priority than securing his release, jake sullivan confirmed there had been possible prisoner swap talks with russia but warned they have not come to any kind of an agreement.>> i don't want to
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give false hope. what the kremlin said earlier this week is correct, there have been discussions, but those discussions have not produced a clear pathway to a resolution, and so i cannot stand here today and tell you that we have a clear answer to how we are going to get evan home, all i can tell you is that we have a clear commitment and conviction we will do everything possible to bring him home>> joining me now is the editor-in-chief, of the wall street journal. and i understand that jake sullivan met with evans family and wall street journal folks, how did the meeting go? what can you say about negotiations or how evan is doing? >> one of the difficult things with the situation is, there is often very little to report, that is what makes it a challenge to keep evan story in the public eye. you hear all sorts of things, in all honesty, the progress of the situation is glacial, he remains in prison in moscow. >> is he able to communicate,
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with the office and his family? >> we don't have direct, it goes through a center, his parents, and the last time he appeared in court, very moving occasion, and he appeared in this horrible glass taint, really inhumane, and ella, evan's mother, able to speak to him, and very moving for a brief moment, and with her son, forget about everything else, it's explained in the video with them, very moving and drive back to reality. and having physical proximity,
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and he made all of the difference. >> and evans mom, and the wall street journal, with this. >> i told him in one of those letters that he is my prisoner now, he has to go read my stories that he did not want to listen to when he was younger. now he has to read them. and he said don't worry about that, love the stories, keep writing them. >> not able to visit him, and able to sit there. >> turn up in court, and have done twice now, and communicate through that, and not easy for them, the last two occasions they were able to grab a few to talk to him through the glass wall. >> do you know anything about
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the situation of his confinement, the quality of it? >> look, from what we saw of him, we can see in the video, he is in good health, he looks a bit pale but he was clearly doing his best to lift everyone's spirits, he was cheerful, clearly cracking jokes, that is the kind of guy that he is. he is not in solitary confinement, he does see other prisoners, we know he is making friends with people in reading, he is meditating, doing whatever it takes to sort of get through but you know, he is a young man, only 31, he is pretty resilient. >> is difficult to keep the public attention on it given the lack of information, one of the things that the wall street journal did, which was extraordinary, this was the cover of the wall street journal today, 100 days. >> yes. >> what is it like trying to
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keep your staff and all the employees of the wall street journal informed and motivated? >> honestly, i am so proud of them, from day one they have been magnificent, really united, so much support for evan, a lot of people that know evan, a lot of them don't, they have all rallied around, it is difficult, they have been reporting a story about one of their own colleagues, that is not always straightforward. but they have been wonderful and honestly the wider journalistic community and our readers have been fantastic, really supportive, but the challenges, we've had 100 days now, and nothing really has changed, he remains in prison, on pretrial detention, how do you keep reminding people that an innocent american journalist is behind bars in russia for doing his job? however many times i said, it remains as outrageous, but you
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know, there's a big busy news agenda as you know, to try to keep the story in the public eye is tricky but i have to say today has been good, people have really rallied around this grim 100 day anniversary. >> when i woke up and i had the paper delivered i saw, and such a moving image and so sickening that it has been 100 days >> we'll be right back. from beginning to end, car details, financing, every step and there were no surprises. well, my monthly payment did come out lower than expected. then i got to pick up my mustang at the vending machine and it was so fun and exciting i did a little dance. (teri laughs) trust me, financing my car with carvana was super smooth. [announcer] finance your next car with carvana today. (soft whistling) hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪
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