this is "gps", the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we have an important program

for you today. with the president of the united states. joseph r. biden. i sat down with the president in the roosevelt room the white house on friday for an exclusive interview. president biden is headed to europe for a trip that will take him to villainous lithuania for the nato annual summit. >> holding nato together is really critical. >> it is been 500 days since russia invaded ukraine. is there any sign of an end to this war? and will nato offer ukraine membership? >> also, is there a foreign relations with china are or we going to see an even more intense rivalry? and, when could netanyahu expect an invitation to the white house. all of this in a special interview with america's 46th president. >> i think we have enormous opportunities and i just want to

finish the job. i'll bring you my take later in the show. but first president biden is headed to europe today for a five-day, three-country tour. the main focus of which will be a stop in villainous lithuania for nato's annual summit. nato leaders had hoped to be celebrating sweden joining the alliance but turkey has blocked the process. meanwhile, today marks 500 days of russia's war in ukraine and the ukrainian counter offensive continues. it is an important moment for nato and an important moment for president biden on the world stage. i sat down with the president in the roosevelt room of the white house on friday for a wide-ranging interview about his foreign policy. mr. president, anon honor t

have you on the program. >> thanks for having me. >> when you go to the nato summit, the big strategic issue is that ukraine wants membership in nato. should it get membership in nato? >> i don't think it is ready for membership in nato. but here is the deal. i spent a great deal of time holding nato together because i believe putin has an overwhelming objective at the time that he launched 85,000 troops into ukraine and that was to break nato. and he was confident in my view that he could break nato. so holding nato together is really critical. i don't think there is unanimity in nato about whether or not to bring ukraine into the nato family now, at this moment, in the middle of a war. if you did that, then you know, and i mean what i say, we're determined to commit every inch of territory that is nato

territory as a commitment that we've all made no matter what. if the war is going on, then we're all in a war. you know, we're in a war with russia if that were the case. so i think we have to lay out a path for the rational path for russia, for excuse me, for ukraine, to be all to qualify to get into nato. and we have -- when the very first time that i met with putin two years ago in geneva and he said i want commitments on no ukraine and nato. and i said we're not going to do that and because it is an open door policy and we're not going to shut anybody out. nato is a process that takes time to meet all of the qualifications to democracy to other issues. i'm spoken to zelenskyy at depth about this and i've indicated that the united states wro be

ready to provide, while the process was going on and it is going to take a while, while that process was going on to provide security ala the security we provide for israel, providing the weaponry and the needs an the capacity to defend themselves if there is an agreement and a cease-fire and a peace agreement. so i think we could work oit ou. but i think it is premature to call for a vote now because there is other qualifications that need to be met, including democracy in some of those issues. >> the short-term issue is athe nato summit is sweden. will sweden -- do you think, are you optimistic that sweden will be invited to join nato relatively soon? >> i am. i am. i met recently with the swedish prime minister here. sweden is a -- has the same value set that we have in nato. it has a small nation but has the capacity to defend itself.

they know how to fight and they're -- and i think they should be a member of nato. you know better than anybody, the hold up is turkey. turkey and sweden is making adjustments in their law to relate to whether or not these people burning the koran. well they aren't swedes that are burning the koran. they are migrants that are burning the koran. and that puts -- that gives an excuse and/or puts erdogan in a tough spot at home. and so, they're moving to stop that, number one. number two, there is a turkey -- turkey is looking for modernization of f-16 aircraft. and mr. tackas in greece is also looking for some help. so what i'm trying to quite frankly put together is a little bit of a consortium here where we're strengthening nato in

terms of the military capacity of both greece as well as turkey, and allow sweden to come in. but it is a -- it is in play. it is not done. >> but you're hopeful. >> i'm hopeful. as a matter of fact, i'm optimistic. >> you have the intoes you that the -- you have news that the u.s. is going to provide cluster munitions to ukraine. and some of our closest naty alleys, when there was news that russians might be used it against civilians your then press secretary said it might be war crimes. what made you change your mind and decide to give them these weapons? >> two, -- two things, far he'd. i discussed this with our allies and our friends up on the hill. and we're in a situation where ukraine continues to be brutally attacked across the board by

munitions, by these cluster munitions that are -- have dud rates that have very, very low -- i mean very high that are a danger to civilians, number one. number two, the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. the ammunition that they call them 155 millimeter weapons. this is a war relating to munitions. and they're running out of those -- that ammunition and we're low on it. so what i finally did, i took the recommendation of the defense department to not permanently, but to allow for this transition period where we get more 155 weapons, the shells for the ukrainians to provide them with a -- something that has a very low dud rate. i think it is 150 which is least likely. and it is not used in civilian areas. they're trying to get through the trenches and stop those tanks from rolling.

and, so, but it was not an easy decision. and it is not -- we're not signatories of that agreement. but i -- it took me a while to be convinced to do it. but the main thing is they have the weapons to stop the russians now from their -- keeping them from stopping the ukrainian offensive through these areas. or they don't. and i think they needed them. >> next on "gps", america's secretary of the treasury just wrapped up a visit to china on the heels of a similar visit by the secretary of state. is this a sign of a thawing of relations or will tensions between two the great powers continue to rise. i'll ask president biden about his china policy when we come back. (fisher investments) in this market, you'll find fisher investments is dififferent than other money managers. (other money mananager) different how? aren't we all just looking for the hottest ststocks?

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today treasury secretary janet yell nan pen wrapped up a four-day trip to beijing that was designed to ease u.s.-china tensions coming on the heel of antony blinken's trip to china last month. despite this, the relationship has rarely been more tense. each side is sparring over technology. conflict over taiwan remains a dangerous possibility and president biden hass enraged thm that the u.s. would come to the aid of taiwan. where does the relationship go from here? i asked president biden. >> let me ask you about china policy. recently there have been announcements of if you restrictions on chinese companies relating to cloud computing, the chinese are now beginning to make -- put restrictions in place on critical materials relating to

semiconductors. when i travel around the world, the sense i get is people is wondering, where is this going? is this a ratchet where the united states will keep doing things like this? the chinese will start responding and then goes on or do you think there is a kind of stable point here where u.s.-china relations could be, as you have often said, competitive, but also when necessary cooperative. >> the answer is i think there is a stable point. but, look, if you don't mind my saying, just before going on air we talked about things are changing in the world. china's is in flux right now as well. china has enormous capacity but enormous problems as well. so there is two things that i have tried to do in terms of our china policy. and by the way, i have met first the person with xi jinping more than any other world leader.

68 hours alone he and i with an interpreter back when i was vice president and all the way through and it was clear he was going to be president and it wasn't inappropriate for the president of the united states, barack obama to be traveling the world with him. but i traveled 17,000 miles with him when i was vice president in china. so we understand each other, i think fairly well, number one. number two, everything is changing. you know, you heard me say it before. the world is an inflection point. to matter what was happening, china is in a different place right now internally. internally. i'll give you an example. he often said to me, on two occasions, called me why am i criticizing what is going on with western china and slave labor, et cetera. and i said, remember, you told me that for china to be able to be secure, it needs to have one leader, a united china from

taiwan to the bet plateau and that is when china has done since going back to the time -- and so i said for me not to talk about -- and you told me for you not to talk about unity of china would be able to lead. well, i said, the united states is the most unique nation in the world. we are organized based on an idea and for real. and an idea. we hold these truths to be self-evident, all men and women are created equal. we never walked away from it. and for me, for an american president to remine silent on slave labor would be totally inconsistent. and, so, i guess i'm trying to say, i'm sorry to go on so long, is that i think there is a way to resolve -- to establish a working relationship with china that benefits them and us. and the last thing i'll tell you

on this, is i also called him after he had that meeting with -- with the russians about this new relationship, et cetera. and i said, this is not a threat, this is an observation. i said, since russia went into ukraine, 600 american corporations have pulled out of russia. and you've told me that your economy depends on investigation from europe and the united states. and be careful. be careful. and so he -- >> what did he say. >> he listened and he didn't argue. and if you notice, he has not gone full bore in russia. he is -- he talks about nuclear war being a disaster. you know, there is such a thing as security that is needed. anyway, so, i think there is a way we could work through this and that is why i spent so much time beefing up -- i think if i

told you three years ago, which i had written about in my notes, that i was going to get japan deeply involved. have them change their defense budget and have them work -- not that i've done it, but work with south korea, work something out. we're going to put together the quad which is india, australia, the united states and japan. i got a call from him on that. and he said why are you doing. >> i seed we're doing that to maintain stability in the indian ocean and in the south china sea. because we believe the rules of the road about what constitutes international air space and the water should be maintained. and so, i just think it is going to take a little time. but, and where it goes, depends on what he's able to do internally in terms of hi

economy. >> do you think he wants china to replace the united states as the leading power, the defining power -- >> oh, yeah, i think he does. i'm confident he wanted to have the largest economy in the world and have us -- the largest military capacity in the world. >> rewrite the rules of the international order? >> i think so. not all them, but he said, as he pointed out to me, we weren't there when the rules were written about international air space and so on. and, but i don't think he wants -- he's looking for war conflict, expansion of territory. and he, look, i sometimes say to my colleagues, i've spent over 180 hours talking with my nato colleagues and colleagues around zoom, i say to them, do you know anybody, any world leader who would trade places with xi jinping. i'll take their problems and you take mine. i don't know that anybody would.

because it is not that he's a bad guy or a good guy, the circumstances are enormously complicated. for example, you know, the whole notion of, you know, this new ring road that is going to put around -- going to invest in other nations. ing with ended up producing a noose. these countries are in real trouble. but it requires us to be more responsible. the west. i've been pushing hard to get our european colleagues to invest in infrastructure in africa, in south america, to generate the kind of growth that should have and could have because we're the ones that caused the environmental problems. we clear-cut everything. and now we're telling them, no, everybody slow up. but i guess what i'm saying is i think that there are positive answers to the dilemmas that

exist without worrying about whether or not china is going to rule the world. >> president biden has taken the unusual step of urging israel's prime minister b.b. netanyahu to walk back his controversial judicial overhaul. has b.b. done enough to get an invitation to the white house? i will ask the president. left. left. i don't have it. i don't have it. - keep going. - we should've used behr. yeah. today let's paint. right now, get america's's most trusted paint brand at a new l low price starting at $28.98. behr. only at the e home depot. i brought in ensure max protein with 30g of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uh... here i'll take that. -everyone: woooo! ensure max protein with 30 gramof protein, one gram of sugar. giveaway for a chance to win $10,000.

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determination. drive. contra costa college helped me blaze the trail. now i'm a comet, and there's no stopping me. come on, this is your shot. take it. join the team at contra costa college. start today at contracosta.edu late last month, prime minister benjamin netanyahu revealed that he had been invited to visit china. that invitation underscores the absence of a similar one from the united states. in march, after sharp rare criticism of netanyahu, for his proposed judicial overhaul, the u.s. president joe biden said that the prime minister would not receive a white house invitation in the near term. months later, he has shown no

sign of relenting. so where do matters between the two leaders and their countries stand? i'm back with joe biden. mr. president, what will it take for debibi netanyahu to ge an invitation to the united states. >> first of all -- is coming and we have other contacts. i think it is fair to say, i've been an unyielding supporter of israel for over -- i've only been around a couple of years, but for as long as i've been around. and bibi, i think is trying to work through how he could work through his existing problems in terms of his coalition. he has -- i'm one of those that believes israel is almost a security risk for a two-state solution. i think it is a mistake to think

that as some members of his cab cabinet and this is one of the extremist cabinets and i go back to my years and -- not that she was extreme but i go back to that era. i think that the fact that the palestinian authority has lost its credibility, not necessarily because of what israel has done, just because it is just lost its credibility, number one. and number two, created a vacuum for extremism among the palestinians. they are -- there is some very extreme elements. so it is not all israel now in the west bank, all israel's problem. but they are part of the problem. and particularly those individuals in the cabinet who say, they have no right -- that we could settle anywhere we want, they have to right to be here, et cetera.

and i think we -- we're talking with them regularly, trying to tamp down what is going on and hopefully bibi will continue to move toward moderation and changing the court. >> you have had tough words about saudi arabia from the start about the khashoggi killing and things like that. you talked about needing a new relationship. they've been pretty unyielding when you've asked them to pump more oil. she slashed oil recently. now saudi arabia wants a defense treaty from the united states promising that you will protect them and they want civilian nuclear capacity which again the u.s. would have to provide. and in return, they would recognize israel. are you going to do it? >> we're a long way from there. we have a lot to talk about. for example, that trip i went, which was criticized for my

going, a number of things have happened on that trip. we were able to negotiate over flights so israeli could know over fly saudi arabia, number one. number two, and the price of oil is actually down, not up and it is not because they have done one thing or the other. but the world is changing our policies relative to renewables. number three, we found ourselves in a circumstance where the war if yemen is essentially for a year now been -- it's ended -- peace is being kept. so we're making progress in the region. and it depends upon the conduct and what is asked of us for them to recognize israel. quite frankly, i don't think they have much of a problem with israel, quite frankly.

and whether or not we would provide a means by which they could have civilian nuclear power and/or be a guarantor of their security, that is -- i think that is a little way off. >> finally, mr. president, you've often said when people ask you about your age, just watch me. and i think a lot of people do watch you and are impressed and they think you've been a great president. you've brought the economy back, you've restored relations with the world. but many of these people do say and these are hardened supporters of yours, the next thing he should do is step aside and let another generation of democrats take the baton. why are they wrong? >> well, let me just -- they're not right or wrong.

it is -- look, to use the phrase again, i think we're at an inflection point. i think the world is changing and i think there is one thing that comes with age, if you're being honest about it your whole life an that is some wisdom. i think we're on the cusp of being able to make significant positive changes in the world. really honest to god do. you've seen what we've done in europe. they are more united since the end of world war ii. and you've seen what we've done in the indian ocean an the south china sea and we've united the 50 island nations that are participating, who will be here by the way shortly. i think we're putting the world together in a way that is going to make things significantly -- how could i say it -- more secure for people. we're uniting democracies, have the possibility of united democracies in a way that hadn't

happened ever. and, so, i think that whether it is the far east, whether it is nato, whether it is europe, whether it is what is going on in africa, i think we have enormous opportunities and i think i just want to finish the job. and i think we could do that in next six years. >> mr. president, it is been an honor. thank you. >> thank you. appreciate it. thanks. i want to thank president biden for joining me. next on "gps", my take. some republican candidates want to wage war on mexico's drug cartels. i will explain why this is a terrible idea. okayay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we provide nutrients to support immune,

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and now here is my take. american presidential campaigns usually aren't focused on foreign policy. which is actually a blessing because when they are, the result is often crazy talk.

if you doubt that, consider the latest policy idea that has been endorsed in some form or the other by almost all the front-runners for the republican presidential nomination. effectively declaring war on mexico's drug cartels. donald trump plans to wage war and impose a full naval embargo on them. senator tim scott wants to use the world's greatest military to solve the problem. a recent poll found strong support for military action among gop primary voters so expect to see more such wild statements. the problem that needs to be addressed is real and tragic. more than 70,000 people in the united states died from synthetic opioid overdoses in 2021, last year for which we have data. the leading synthetic opioid is fentanyl. these are postally made by cartels in mexico. but the idea that using american

military force would solve the problem is delusional. first, it would be an act of war against mexico. that country's government has been clear that it is utterly opposed to any use of the american military to deal with its drug problem. and if it were to be persuaded otherwise, the worst way to proceed would be for american politicians to claim they intend to use force regardless of what the mexican government thinks. this kind of rhetoric is a gift to mexico's president obrador, who will use it to gin up anti-american nationalism in his country. second, it won't work. has senator scott reflected on the fact that the world's greatest military was unable to stop the drug trade in afghanistan, a country that it occupied for 20 years. the problems in mexico would be even greater than afghanistan.

large areas of no-man's-land where the cartels operate. massively funded and armed militias and many ways to shift production across borders. third, large scale action against the cartels would unleash instability across the region and in the u.s. itself. you will think that we would have some understanding of the unintended consequences of military interventions after iraq and afghanistan. millions of migrants have been trying to enter the united states. imagine what the numbers would look like if there were bombing campaign in southern mexico. armed gangs would disperse and try to find ways to hide in smaller numbers including by crossing the border into the u.s. and instead of exporting the violence to mexico, we would be bringing the war to america. two year ago, on the 50th anniversary of the richard nixon's war on drugs, several studies and articles noted that

it had been an almost unqualified failure by almost any measure. despite an estimated $1 trillion spent on enforcement, deaths from drug overdoses have risen dramatically, while the american prison system has been utterly transformed. now, with less than 5% of the world's population, america has around 20% of its prisoners. after many reform efforts, the police make over a million arrests each year simply for possession of drugs. and when we talk about the war on drugs, we rarely discuss its effects on latin america. our efforts to address the problem massively empowered the military's in many of these countries and hindered the development of civil society, democratic development and the rule of law. corruption skyrocketed and infested all parts of society. as can be seen in mexico where the cartels are become

interwoven with parts of the government. some consider plan columbia, a successful battle. washington has appropriated about $12 billion for the plan and related efforts in colombia, where brave and tenacious government fought vigorously against the cartels. coke cultivation did decline but has returned with a vengeance. even worse, the strategy has increased production in neighboring peru and bolivia, the drug trade moves to colombia in the 18980s from peru and bolivia because of the militaryef fors in those countries. this is what experts call the balloon effect. you could just as easy call it capitalism 101, when the richest country in the world has an insatiable demand for drugs, someone will supply them.

solving the fentanyl crisis will take time and a wide range of efforts. doctors still prescribe far too many opioids responding to powerful commercial incentives. a 2019 study shows that american and canadian postoperative patients were seven times more likely to be prescribed opioids than patients in sweden. drug treatment and rehabilitation programs are far too small and underfunded. medications that help with drawl symptoms have proven extremely effective but still only one in four people who need them in the u.s. can obtain them. in the meantime, though, it is much easier to bellow about going to war with mexico. let's hope that it is just campaign craziness. if we actually try to make these threats a reality, we will be asking for decades of turmoil. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link

to my washington post column this week. next on "gps," after 500 days of war, the list of russia's alleged war crimes is getting long. and the road to bringing war criminals to justice is not easy. but my next guest is working to hold the perpetrators accountable. that story when we come back. ♪ open talenti and raise the jar to gelato made from scratch. raise the jar to flavors and now, frojars to bars. new talenti gela

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last week a u.n. report found that russian forces have carried out widespread and systematic torture of ukrainian civilians. since the war began 77 civilians have been executed and over 800 have been detained often under inhumane conditions said the u.n. and russia's war crimes are piling up. the u.n. has added the russian army to the blacklist for killing more than 130 children in ukraine last year.

and even using children human shields. in response, the head of president volodymyr zelenskyy office andreiyer mac called them a war criminal and they've trained journalists to create eyewitness testimony of atrocities. this evidence is being used to help prosecutors build cases against putin and others in international court. former war correspondent janine di deo vaughny is the executive director of the reckoning project and she joins me to talk about her work. pleasure to have you on. how did you get involved with this project? >> so, fareed, as you know, i worked in war zones for more than 30 years. 19 wars, unfortunately i've witnessed three genocides in my lifetime. i've seen far too often the perpetrators of extraordinary violence, war crimes, crimes against humanity walk away from it and often it was because

evidence was not collected while the war was going on or that by the time they would get these people to the docket, it was too late. witnesses had died, or they disappeared. so the day after the full-scale invasion of ukraine, with a colleague peter pomeranz, we are decided the best way to quicken justice and make sure that putin will be hold accountable, we would do something and we realized there was a huge niche between those on the ground witnessing these things daily but they were aun iable to take witness testimony and they didn't have training in international humanitarian law and most importantly they could damage witnesses by traumatizing them if they ask the wrong questions. so that is the origins of the reckoning project. i guess you could say it was bourne out of my own deep anger and frustration and bitterness

at seeing justice not delivered. >> i know this is an ongoing investigation, but give me some sense of what are you finding? >> so mainly we're working on some specific projects. we were among the first to trace the stolen children, the ukrainian children. in our case, a family that was taken from mariupol, their father was put into a filtration camp and the three children were put on a bus and taken to moscow. they were then very close to being adopted by a russian family when somehow the eldest child got a cell phone and managed to call a colleague of his fathers to find out that his father had been released from filtration camp and was in latvia. and then they reunited. so that is one happy ending. but there are many that are not. so we're really focused intently now on russia's abduction of these children. because to us, it ties very

closely in with genocide. because it is trying to eradicate ukraine identity. when these kids go -- are taken to russia, the first thing that happens is their ukrainian names are taken away from them. and they speak in russian rather than ukrainian. they are taught a new russ fied system which reminded me of what happened with pollpot in cambodia in year zero. so their past is erased. we're working on eco logical terrorism. but wee look at torture and deportation and murder of course, but the indiscriminate use of force against civilians. the purely unnecessary attacks where there are no military installations, and yet they are bombed simply to terrorize the population and weaken their resolve and their resilience. and i just got back from kyiv.

there are nightly air raids. people are going to the shelter. it is not the siege of sarajevo, it is not that level of shelling or that kind of constant sniping, hundreds shelling falling a day. but it wears them down psychologically which is putin's intent. he wants to weaken this em. he wanted to weaken the resolve, 60 months into the con flick, people are tired. they want normality again, they want a normal life and yet they have to take their kids to a shelter every single night. this is really hard. and yet, you know, as you know, the ukrainians are extraordinarily resistant, tough and strong. but it is a difficult way to live when you're life is completely broken in half. and this is vladimir putin 's intent. >> when you're doing this work, janine, do you think of yourself as a journalist or do you think of yourself as an activist? >> i this i of myself more now as a war crimes investigator and

an activist but at my core how could i escape being a journalist. it is what i did for 32 years. but essentially, i mean, we -- wo we do the same thing. as a journalist, i worked on war crimes, that is my beat. so i'm still looking for the same kind of patterns but in a much more legal way. for instance, on my team are two syrians, our chief legal counsel and our data scientist, the three of us have spent a lot of time in syria and then i've been in chechnya. so these are three putin wars. we look at what i call putin's gruesome playbook. his pattern of indiscriminaty attacking hospitals, which we know we remember from aleppo, the destruction of hospitals and his intent if you kill one doctor, you kill a community, basically. the same kind of targeting of

maternity hospitals. even more chilling in ukraine because this ties into his whole ee ethos of destroying ukrainian identity. but we're looking at patterns of what putin does. how his commands from his propaganda for instance, how that affects directly action on ground. that is another thing the reckoning project is very involved with, is propaganda. and how it directly affects soldiers actions on the ground. >> tell me what your mentor, that israeli lawyer told you. >> so many years ago, when i was an academic and had no intention of becoming a journalist, i met felicia langer, the only jewish lawyer in military court and she took me to gauzeza an west bankd when i got back she said if you have the ability to go to these places and report what is happening on ground, then you

have a duty and an obligation. and i've lived my life by her words since then. >> janine, pleasure to talk to you. >> thank you so much, fareed. we want to thank president biden, again, for being a part of my program. and thanks to all of you in the united states and around the world for watching. i will see you next week and every sunday at 10:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. eastern time. neutrogena® hydro boost lightwtweight. clinically proveven. 48-hour hydration. for that healthy skin glow. neutrogena®. for people with skin. i brought in ensure max prprotein with 30g of protein. those e who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uh... here i'll take that. -everyone: woo hoo! ensure max protein wit, one gram of sugar. enter the noishing moments giveaway for a chance win $10,000. bug spray works best... when your family actually wears it.

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