>> all, right thank you so much for joining us tonight. cnn prime time with laura coates starts right now. >> thanks, kaitlan, thanks to see you. and thank you everyone, good evening, thanks for joining me. i am laura coats. and look, they are some the most gruesome and most infamous murders in the entire history of our country.

and tonight, a convicted killer from the manson family is walking free. leslie van houten, released on parole after 53 years behind bars. she was, of course, a part of the group that terrorized lost angeles over two nights in 1969, killing seven people in some of the most gruesome of ways, including actress sharon tate, who at the time was pregnant. van houten was convicted of killing a couple in their own home, stabbing the wife 16 times at the crime scene. now, she wiped her fingerprints at the crime scene. she changed her clothes. she even drink chocolate milk from her victims refrigerator, and she says she did it as a follower of manson's. >> i believed that he was jesus christ. and it was his view and belief that all of this would happen.

and part of his thing was not to have individual thinking and don't ask questions. and i bought into it lock, stock, and barrel. so, i never asked him how that is going to happen. >> now, california governor, gavin newsom, had previously rejected her parole three separate times, but this time, he didn't fight it. i want to bring in anthony de maria, his uncle, jay sebring, was one of the victims of the manson family. anthony, thank you for joining me this evening. you know, there's been a law that's been talked about and said over the years, five decades worth and more. the nation, of course, has been fastening by all that happened. it is unbelievable to think that this is a member of your own family who was one of the victims. before we even begin, you know, tell me what you are feeling on a day like today, knowing that one more person is now freed.

>> well, the first thing is obviously i, i, my, my thoughts are with the victims, all the victims and all of our families. because as leslie collectively tortured, conspired, and killed her victims, so too our families collectively bound by the loss and suffering of her crimes. and it's clearly that leslie van houten's release is the, it profoundly impacts our families, but i fear that a very dangerous, pernicious precedent is established today that will impact millions of victims of violent crimes, and throughout the state of california today, and in the years to come. >> what is that precedent you're talking about? because you, of course, have been very critical, understandably, of the idea that she considers herself to be a victim of charles manson. and i wonder, what is the president that you're speaking

about, that the governor has decided not to stop this appeal, or stop, appeal once again, what is the president? >> the president is established now. leslie van houten has always kind of propped herself up as a manson follower. but she's anything but. she is a cold blooded killer, and one of the most mature -- notorious murder rampages in united states history. so, with her release now, any other violent criminal or killer whose crimes fall beneath the bar of leslie van houten's very extreme, very crimes, that'll have historical impact, that opens the door for them. and it is our fear that the floodgates in the california penal system will be unhinged. >> i am curious, has she ever reached out to you or members of your family? she spent more than 50 years now behind bars. there are others, obviously,

who have been convicted. have there been any contact between the now released woman and yourself or your family? >> no, with leslie van houten, chevy committed the crimes on waverly, with rosemary and leto labianca, and was not president on my uncles murder on the evening of august 8th. as i understand it, there are certain crtc rules that prohibit the offenders from contacting the families. so, no, i haven't received any, any outrage from, from leslie. >> what's your view now of governor gavin newsom, knowing that he did not, at this occasion, fight? >> you know, i appreciate that question. i certainly have respect for governor newsom and the attorney general. but our families strongly, vehemently disagree with their decision not to file an appeal.

>> anthony dimaria, thank you for joining us, and thank you for shedding some light on your family members. and we will think of them as a part of your family, not just in the gruesome way that all of this has been described. thank you so much. >> thank you, laura. >> tonight, there are three major developments in the cases against the former president, donald trump, who is vying to, of course, become the president yet again. first, there is a reversal by the justice department, that federal lawyers say the former president is no longer entitled to immunity in the defamation case against him, the one involving e. jean carroll. now, this basically means that trump now has to defend himself without the doj stepping in on his behalf. and it essentially paved the way now for a second, yes, a second defamation trial against trump involving that same plaintive. and on top of this, you've got a grand jury in georgia that was chosen today to decide whether to indict, remember, it's a probable cause, not

beyond a reasonable doubt, but whether to indict trump and others who are trying to overturn the election. and but wait, there's more, as they say, because in the classified documents indictment already against him in florida, his legal team is now arguing that his trial ought to be moved not a month or two months or even six months, but after the election, the one that the year and a half away. and among the arguments that he's, one, too busy running for president, and also a jury, they believe, will be too biased against him. but we know what's clear, this seems to be part of a political strategy. it seems now go hand in hand with his legal strategy. joining me now is somebody who knows his strategies quite well, is the lawyer who just left the trump -- in this very case, tim parlatore. thank you for joining me this evening. nice to see you. listen, i'm so fascinated by all that's happening right now. you have been intimately

involved in the classified documents, up until, of course, leaving the defense team. the fact that he would like this to be moved till after the election, we're talking more than 400 days away -- >> right. >> does that surprise you at all that he wants to delay it in that way, knowing that there is an election? >> you know, it's interesting because the election is there. assume for a second that there was no election, and you look at how fast federal cases go to trial, it wouldn't, it wouldn't seem like that long of a delay. you know, you have federal cases that they go on for years before they ever get to trial. so, it doesn't seem like that much of a delay in the context of the larger federal criminal system. but certainly, when it's being framed this way as, you know, being around the election, it does kind of feed that narrative that the whole purpose, you know, who would be to push it up past the election. >> i mean, did you ever talk to him about a strategy involving -- certainly, you are where this is all ruminating in the prospects of an indictment and

on trial, was it ever discussed, or would you have advised him to try to delay and push it out past the election? >> well, obviously i can talk about my specific conversations with him. but, it is something that you would consider. i mean -- >> why? >> well, with a politically-charged case, you know, i've done this in cases before where it's not a candidate, but it is somebody that there's political, you know, aura to the case and you know that the administration is about to change and therefore the u.s. attorney involved is about to change and the next administration may take a different view of things. >> or be more favorable to you in the long run? >> sure, they could be. and also, you know, by moving from one administration to another, that could have a tendency to take the original prosecutor who brought the case, who's emotionally attached to it, and all of a sudden have a different, have a different decider. >> we prosecutors don't have any motions. what are you talking about? that's a myth, first of all. but when you talk about that, i can't help but think about the

comments that he constantly talks about, that there is two justice systems in america. and the luxury of that strategy, the luxury of thinking about, while, could be delay in time to have a political appointee who might be more favorable and beyond, isn't that really the tale of the two justice systems that people are talking about, not the idea of the has in the have-nots that everybody has to deal with in the most basic of cases, but in a case like this, this really feels then like it's a advantage that no other defendant would have with the prospect of maybe saying they are a candidate? >> it is a very unique situation. and you know, i always kind of looked at it, you know, at the time that i was on the team the opposite way, that how hard would jack smith and doj be pushing on this case if he wasn't a candidate? and i always kind of saw it as kind of, by announcing his candidacy when he did, that it was something that i actually could've turned doj into, you know, being much more forward

-leaning in trying to indict him, to try to prevent him from becoming president. and ivan -- >> wait, i just want to be clear, you think that by announcing early, that that would've had the effect of jack smith and special counsel saying, okay, now we have to get him before the election cycle? or that this was something else? >> no, and again, when he announced jack smith wasn't in the picture. that happened right after. but when you have a situation like this, and have to remember, at the time, we were looking at it, saying, you know, this is a failure of process, you know, these documents were not taking out with any malice or intention. it is bad record keeping procedures. so, this is really the kind of case that shouldn't be brought, but -- >> that was then. but now, how do you go about? this >> will certainly -- let me finish. first, because my concern was at the time was if, you know, if the narrative about, you know, doj under biden and garland is going to try and take out the political opponent,

if he doesn't run for office, that he's not really the political opponent, he's not somebody that they need to indict to prevent from going back to the white house. so, it can cut both ways. >> mm. he >> in that regard. >> i do hear you. but i need to be able precisely on the word need to indictment. is there some basis -- where they would has some motivation to target him, other than the reasons that he has allegedly committed crimes? >> oh, sure. >> why? >> oh, sure. and i think this does go to, you know, some of the two systems of justice. there are prosecutors out there who they like and that regard to get the biggest names of the kind. whether they're democrat or republican or not political people, to further a prosecutor's career to get, to try to put that big scalp on the wall that they can. and donald trump would certainly qualify as being one of the biggest scalps that any

prosecutor could ever have, you know, to put on their wall. whereas if it's a ordinary citizen, maybe it's somebody who, you know, is more of a low level staffer that found documents and would not be as much zeal to go after them, perhaps. >> well, i, mean jack smith was paid, so one would argue international crimes don't matter. but all play. >> he was also the public integrity -- >> he was, i'm saying that. >> he went on after a lot of big names. >> excuse me one second. i will play this part of it the notion of, let's assume that there's some enticement about it being a name like donald trump. trump didn't do himself any favors. it's not the average person, right, who just said, oh, this was a bookkeeping issue, here you go, here are the documents back for you. it was, this is mine, you can't have it, and oh, it seems to be in the indictment or the affidavit, at least is codefendant, walt nauta, the

removal of boxes and not returning them. so, there is certainly the talking point to suggest, oh, this is motivated in some way for the biggest notch on the belt. but have we gotten past that now, based on what has been alleged? >> you know, certainly reading the indictment, you know, as i've read it now, versus the information that we had pre indictment, i can certainly see if there's evidence to support all of those things that are in the indictment, where a prosecutor would say, okay, you know, this is something that we need to, we need to move forward on. and i'm talking very specifically about the movement of the boxes. >> mm-hmm. >> which you mentioned. and if you have actual evidence to back that up, then it is certainly something that makes more sense to do. if it is a situation where, you know, a former resident of the white house has, you know, moved out, and gsa moved a whole bunch of boxes, they have a picture of documents, well, that happened to every single

administration going back as far as retracted. so, there are documents that went to jimmy carter's house, documents i went to joe biden's house, documents to and all these other places. now, most presidents, the boxes didn't go to their house, because they were going to form a presidential library. so the boxes, they went to a narrow facility, where the future presidential library was to be built. so, it never actually got to the house. >> mm. well, there are obvious distinctions, obviously, in the way that he's been allegedly handling the material from here out. real quick, your prediction, is this trial going this year? >> no, no, absolutely not. i mean, even if there wasn't an election, given the complexity of this case and the volume of discovery and the significant legal issues to be litigated, i don't see how it would go before the election, no matter what. >> while, where in the wild, wild west, jack smith disagrees. let's see what the judge has to say about all this. tim parlatore, great to see you,

thank. you >> thank you. >> also tonight, senator tommy tuberville changing his tune now on white nationalists. we'll discuss next what that means. also plus, csi actor hill harper, he is launching a senate bid. he is telling fellow democrat elissa slotkin, and some in the democratic party are not too happy. he's got to join me live. and a jury is delivering, it has done so, a decision over the hand written will found in aretha franklin's couch. is it valid? i feel bad even talking over her great voice. we'll be back in a moment. ♪ ♪ ♪

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take the first step to see if your small business qualifies for the erc. >> after 24 hours of backlash, republican senator tommy tuberville finally condemning white nationalists and admitting that they are racists, as the definition actually instructs. it culminates a series of evolving comments, shall we say, well, take a listen. >> you mentioned the biden administration trying to prevent white nationalists from being in the military. do you believe they should allow white nationals in the military? >> well, they call them that. i call them americans. >> my opinion of a white nationalist, if someone wants to call them white nationalist, is to me, an american, it's an american. >> is racism bad. next question, next question. the >> definition, the definition --

is >> next question, next question, racism, racism is totally out of question. >> so, do you believe white nationalists are racist? >> yes, if that's what resist is, yes. >> tuberville's about-face comes after backlash from republican lawmakers all the live long day, including from the senate minority leader. >> white supremacy is simply unacceptable in the military and in our whole country. >> i want to bring in michael eric dyson, distinguished professor of african american and diaspora studies at vanderbilt university. my friend, i'm so glad to see you. i have been champing at the bit wondering what your mind has made of all of this. tell me, what has been your reaction to all of this? and of course, the timing, michael eric dyson, that it took that stretch of time to do that old come around. >> [laughter] you are right, laura coates, you're absolutely right. it ain't a about-face, it's a

half turn. the fact is, this is a man who has the -- made $25 million on the backs of black players. and yet, his show them little more than contempt and derision since his ascended to the senate of the united states. this man is smart enough to know what he's doing. he's sending dog whistles out. he signifying that, hey, i'm with you, even when he is forced to turn around, the compatriots of his that are white nationalists understand that he is doing so as a matter of forest compulsion, political correctness, to cooperate with the stream of the times in order not to be seen not out of that stream. so, the bottom line is that tommy tuberville doesn't convincingly tell us that he is not a white nationalist, or that he is not involved with or sympathetic to them. he simply was forced to say, yes at the end of the day, those who claim to be racist, are not in my league. but i think the white

nationalists are not racist, and then he says, okay, they are racists. he is giving us a mumble jumble of confuse rhetoric. and at the end of the day, we are not convinced that tommy tuberville is not in league, and indeed, in bed with white nationalists. if not formally, at least with their impulse and their ideals. >> naturally, the senator, i'm sure, would resent and reject the notion that you just suggested. but i do wonder about this taking a step back, michael eric dyson, in that i feel like i can say at this point i'm perhaps hula off to remember a time when politics also required you to be prudent enough to anticipate backlash in a way that make you at least in front of a camera case pose a very different viewpoint than maybe one you held privately. what does it say to you now, the ease and comfort of the rebuttal, the disdain for even trying to articulate a position against it right now?

>> you are absolutely right, it's eloquently articulated. and yes, he would reject my premise, but i think he'd have a lot of evidence to counteract what he's talking about. look, at the end of the day, we are living in a time where loose lips don't sink ships, but rise fortunes. the point is that you used to be ashamed to admit that you had any racist inclinations or racist beliefs, hibernating insider skull. that is a slip out through your tongue, you were immediately or horrified at the prospect, and you convincingly apologize. no, not in this case. white supremacy has become new again, has become vibrant alternative to many viewpoints that are mainstream in the society, whether on those who are democrats or republicans, and the truth is in the far right wing, there is a vicious kind of reengagement with those who are seen as pure americans.

look what happened on january 6th, we had a confederate flag being dragged through the most hallowed territory in american civic life. and yet, they're being defended by the likes of josh hallway and many others on the right. so, the point is that it used to be a source of fame, now it's a sense of prime. yeah, now you can say oh, no, no, i'm not down with the white nationals and white supremacists, even as you espouse their very believes. and you wink and nod at them to suggest that they've got to keep going. maybe not with donald trump, like standby and stand ready, i miss quoting him, but you get the point. the point is though that tommy tuberville has strengthen the outlook of white supremacists. and yes, mitch mcconnell and others have said racism has no place. and yet, many of them continue to embrace ideologies and politics thank you soccer and sustenance to those who hold such believes. >> you know, it occurs to me as

we're talking fluidly about these terms and often interchangeably, i wonder if people are aware of and you see a distinction or a conflation in these two terms, white supremacy, white nationalism, there seems to be those who are trying to extend some big divide between the two. but are they distinct, in your mind? >> well, one is the lakers, the other is the celtics, but the they are all the nba. >> [laughter] >> so the point is, yeah -- >> now, the nba is serious, i will tell you that right now. now they don't want to watch the show. thanks a lot, michael eric dyson. lakers, celtics, let's go. even red auerbach from back in the day is wondering what happened here. go ahead. >> well, the nba, no brothers allowed. so, what's happening here is that, yes, white nationalism is the especial of believe in the inherent superiority of white culture, that it is the ethnic bases and the little aggregation of white bodies, the leaves, ideals and

perspectives as the dominant threat of american supremacy. white supremacy is the conscious or unconscious belief in the inherent superiority of one group over the other. so, yeah, you can make political an ideology distinctions, but at the end of the day, they are bedfellows, they're rising together. one is driving the car, one is riding shotgun, but they both are aimed towards the same direction, which is to hurt people who are not white. >> michael eric dyson, i'm so glad you came on. thank you for breaking this down for everyone. i appreciate your time. thank you. nice to see you. >> thank you for having me. >> well, from gifts to luxury travel to book sales, there are new revelations tonight about the ethical behavior of supreme court justices on so-called both sides of the ideological spectrum. we are going to talk about it all next with nina totenberg. plus, breaking news tonight, we're getting word that north korea has fired what appears to be a long range melissa missile. everyone standby, we will bring you the latest.

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>> we have breaking news tonight. north korea has fired what appears to be a long range ballistic missile from the area near its capital city. that's according to south korea's joint chiefs of staff, which says the missile was fired into waters off the east coast of the korean peninsula. i want to turn right away to cnn international, senior international correspondent will ripley. we'll, what can you tell us? >> so, this icbm was launched from a pretty familiar place, the soon on airport in pyongyang, it's a place i've flown into many times. and basically, in addition to being an airport they would occasionally is for civilian flights, they also used it for

missile launches. and kim jong-un can get their very easily from his palace, and he can observe the early morning launch and watch this big rocket go up. and they take the video, released as a big news both, and maybe 24 hours later, maybe sooner. this missile followed a pretty trajectory -- for icbms for north korea. they've been talk about firing an icbm at irregular trajectory, which would actually have it kind of crossing over, possible continents, i mean, large numbers of countries could have a north korean -- if they were to launch on these icbms at a normal trajectory. but they did a lofty trajectory, which basically sends it very far up into space, and back down, only traveling total ground just about 1000 climbers. that is less provocative for sure. it follows the pattern that north korea as user previous missile launches. it comes at a time, laura, there is been a real uptick intention on the korean peninsula. it was just this week that the sister of kim jong-un, the north korean leader, put out a statement warning that they would shoot down american military reconnaissance planes

that had been operating in the area. north korea accuses planes of crossing into, not their airspace, but sort of like an economic zone that they control, you know, near the north korean coast. the u.s. denies this. there is no evidence offered on the north korean side, but they are basically, you know, sending out warnings. this icbm launch is certainly intended to be that for united states, because that missile, well within range of every major city, laura. >> will ripley, it's not lost on any of us that this is of course happening during the nato summit as well. and surely, the nato leaders are watching as well. keep us updated, please. thank you so much. well, we all know actor hill harper from his roles on csi new york and the good doctor, among other girls as well. but in the future, he would like to be known as senator hill harper of michigan. he joins me next to talk about his candidacy, where is challenging congresswoman elissa slotkin. ll prescription-strength? reduces inflammation?

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his work and shows like csi and the good doctor, is now going for a new role, politician. harper announced this week that he will run as a democrat in the 2024 u.s. senate race in michigan. he made the announcement in a video dedicated to his adopted son. >> i believe our government should work for the people, be a force for good, and protect our freedoms. and that won't happen if we keep electing the same type of people to office. that's why i'm running for united states senate, to represent michigan. i love you, son, and i hope to make you proud. >> hill harper joins me now. good to see you, hill, thank you for joining us. listen, this says in quite a week, an announcement of this magnitude, really significant. tell me, why are you hoping to become the next senator out of michigan? >> i will tell you, laura,

today has been an incredible day. and the reason why is because of a day like today. we start in detroit early, we've done three different events, thousands of people showed up. we are in detroit, and then we went to pontiac, a community that's experienced a lot of struggles, a lot of factory closings. and then we ended up in the western part of the state, in grand rapids, to a packed house. and a young girl, you ask me why, a young girl named kennedy sands handed me this from kennedys creations. she's probably nine years old. hill harper from michigan, and that's why i'm running, for people like my son and kennedy's hands, and all the great people of michigan who deserve bold leadership. we have the amazing senators we have now stepping down. and this state needs bold leadership to continue to double down on the work that we've seen the triple blue do in our state capitol in lansing, where they've done so much good work getting rid of right to work, rebuilding the water infrastructure, expanding voting rights, we knew that in

washington, d.c., as well. >> you know, for many people who have followed your career, know that you have done a great deal of activism in michigan in particular as well. but many people know you as an actor. and obviously, there have been very famous actors before who have already become the president united states, we can name at least one in the past 30 or 40 years, at least. but i do wonder, when people see you and they will identify the creative work that you are doing, what do you intend to do to expand -- expand people's idea of who hill harper is and who he can be for michigan? >> you know, i think that's the question. that's why we have to go to all 83 counties throughout the state. the last three, four months i have visited so many different places, up union halls, i've been in farmers markets, i've been at peoples dining tables. and hearing the same type of thing of what type of representation they want. the representation of the people, as opposed to lobbyists, as opposed to big dollar donors and backroom deals. and so, that's what we want to

provide. that's what i want to represent for the folks. but to your point, folks need to look you in the eye and know whether your genuine or not, know whether they feel. you know, i've done for years a lot of work in the prison system, fighting against mass incarceration, and people said the same thing about that. man, you weren't in a gang, you never want to present, how do you connect with the brothers? and they can feel whether, you know, when you say i love you and i want to support youth, they either know you are telling the truth or not. and that's the way people see. so, you've got to look folks in the eye, have meaning, you've got to meet people where they are. >> i understand that, certainly. and when you meet them where they are, looking them in the eye, what is the issues they take issue with? what are you hoping to propose or change? because you are not happy right now, with what democrats and the governments are doing in respect to michigan. what is your specific issue and platform that you hope to achieve? >> i hear from a lot of michiganders across the state that they don't feel adequately represented in a strong, bold way.

we want to fight for peoples freedoms. we want to fight for economic development, small business. i'm a small business owner in downtown detroit. there is a great coffee shop in downtown detroit. you know, i've had that for seven years, and we want to create jobs in communities, because you know small business is the engine for that. we also want to make sure we're protecting our water. 21% of the world's surface water supplies here in michigan. folks feel very personal about our great lakes here, and we want to protect those at all costs. and you know, with student loan debt, you know, we want to fight against lash politicized supreme court ruling against the president's student loan debt relief. so, those are the types of things we want to do. but we can only do that through a grassroots campaign, and that's why we need people to go to hill harper.com and support us directly, because this is not going to be a funded campaign from big dollar donors and lobbyist, it's gonna be a funding campaign through individual donors, grassroots donors on our website. >> now, there is an incumbent in congress right now who, according to recent polling, of

course, is the front runner as of now. she's a moderate democrat. you just entered the race yesterday. it's of course congresswoman elissa slotkin. she was on our airwaves earlier with kaitlan collins. what is the contrast with her specifically, because of course, this will be a primary challenge? >> it's, it's a massive challenge. and i think that when we talk about contrast, when we talk about candidates, we don't even know who all the candidates are going to be in the race. what we do know is that it's an open seat primary, and it's the greatest opportunity for people to articulate what they believe, to represent people, and to battle. you know, my former classmate barack obama, when he won his senator race in illinois, it was a open seat primary. i think there are nine or ten people vying for that, and i think seven people ended up on the ballot. he won with some 20% of the vote. i do know one thing, michiganders don't want washington, d.c. and the

establishment picking who their next senator is going to be. and i'm excited to have a conversations with folks all across the state about that, and really let them look me in the eye, to side if they want me to represent them. >> real quick, is it true, i've seen some reporting that some democrats and incumbents have tried to tell you not to run because they had who they thought should be in the race already picked out. has that actually happen, and what's your reaction itself? >> it has happened, but that's part of the process. i mean, you know, -- you know i'm nosy. who told you not to run? >> i'm not going to tell you. i'm not a politician. that's the good thing. and that's what people at the, here is a little refreshing. i just tell the truth. i mean, i just got into the race today, and the nrsc just put out a lie about me that came out, you know, like, an hour ago. and i was, like, wow, that was fast. so, the one thing we've got to deal with is truth in this process. and i'm committed to telling the truth. i'm committed to just being

honest, and talk about how i want rights and people and not fall into the political games, because i don't even know how to play the political games, because i'm not a politician. i'm just gonna be me, and if folks want a representative like me who knows they're kind of fight for, we're going to have a campaign powered by the people, that's what we're going to do. we're going to get people believing better, and do the work to make its. so that's the type of work we're going to do. if folks want that, and i do believe michiganders do, i will be the next u.s. senator from the state of michigan. >> well, mr. smith went to washington, why can't hill harper go to the hill? that's a title, i'm just telling. you >> know, laura -- >> i'm just saying there's a lot of creative genius there. i don't know, you just have to give me credit and royalties. thank you so much, he will harper nice to see you, and good luck in what you're doing. thank you so much. >> thank you so much, i appreciate you. >> just ahead, the battle over aretha franklin's will. it is the version that was the hand written won by the queen of soul and discovered under a couch cushion after her death actually valid? well, a jury has reached a

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about the trust in the institution. the cloud is growing and the drip, drip, drip is not stopping. what is the impact on a court that used to hold, be held in such high regard? >> well, you know, there are good nations of all of these issues. and i think justice thomas is on one hand, some of the other justices are more or less on the other end. but people understand that the court has a very special place. and if they are suddenly getting just from people and very special treatment and being showered with attention and vacations and invitations from very wealthy people, the average american, even the average moderately wealthy american, understands that that isn't a good look for the court, that it looks like they are being, if not bought and paid for, at least that they may

have what we all have, which is we tend to believe our friends, we tend to favor the views of france, we can't believe that they would do something inappropriate or wrong. and for most americans, this doesn't look good. >> nina, you're right about liquidation, and i will take a step back and speak in more generalities, obviously for that reason, because each specific case and reason is very distinct. but critics, particularly on the left, even calling for reform. and for a long time, about ethics and about regulations. neither congress or the court itself we're prime to make any changes. we do see some discussions happening in congress right now, but the idea of the supreme court saying, no, we're going to change our ethical guidelines, our reporter requirements in disclosure, and we're going to match the other article three judges, doesn't seem to be happening, at least with the will of the supreme court. is there a course correction on

the horizon? >> well, it certainly doesn't look that way. i think it's apparent to, i think, most of us who cover the court that the chief justice would like to create some sort of an ethics code. i don't know whether it would be satisfactory to you or me, but it would at least be an ethics code. and he clearly doesn't have the votes to do that. and i think at this point, it's more than just one or two people, it may be more than that. he may not even have a majority of people who want to really sit down and try and hammer out an ethics code. and there are reasons for that are multitudinous, and we don't have the time to discuss them. >> [laughter] >> but unless he has the votes, really the votes, and probably more than five, four, he can't get it done. he's the only member of the court who, as far as i can tell, declares every gift imaginable,

lists every realist a transaction of any kind, doesn't give much in the way of speeches, and the ones that he gives our for obvious reasons, there are at major universities, on a rare occasion, or that the american law institute. he's really the only one, and even he has come in for some criticism because his wife is a recruiter for a law -- law firms. >> yes, nina, thinking about that is the fascination, it seems, that nobody has either clean hands or the opponent said -- putting in all of this, it does not bode well for how we look to this room court. but maybe there is change on the horizon. nina totenberg, another day, we will have a longer conversation. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> ahead, everyone, a big day on the hill tomorrow, as the fbi director is sitting in the hot seat. john berman on cnn tonight at the top of the hour. but first, is aretha franklin's hand written will valid?

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>> the verdict is in, a jury ruling today that 102,014 will found in the late singer aretha franklin's couch is the valid one. the verdict brings an end to a more than four-year family battle over franklin's estate. 2014 document was one of two wheels at the heart of a legal dispute, the other was from 2010, and was found in a cabinet in her home. aretha franklin died in 2018 of cancer. to talk more about this case, we've got litigation attorney a scott bolden. good to see you here, and lean on your expertise. first of, all is this the right decision the jury came to a conclusion? of >> yet, there are two will, say 2014 will, and into -- the presumption was that if you have two wheels, one is dated later will be the one you want to go by. now here, lots of facts, lots of witnesses, and what have you. but the 2014 document had

several initials and several signatures on it from the queen of soul. and it was the right decision by the jury. i'm surprised that i got this far. they mediated, and there is no references in the media, at least reports that i read, of witnesses to either one of these documents. now, you can have a holographic will under michigan law, that's what we have here. but it's a shame that the family members want couldn't work it out a mediation. but to, and most importantly, that she and her advisers did not to estate planning, like so many celebrities we know. >> we keep hearing celebrities, just don't do it. because when they were alive, their advisers and them simply didn't work it out. whether you make $100,000 a year or a thousand dollars a year or millions a year, you got to do your estate planning. put your assets in a trust or create a will, secure it, right, make sure it's legal, and your lawyer or your accountant, or even someone in your family that you trust is going to be