if you've been spending any time off the coast of florida these days, the waters there feel more like a hot tub than a cool dip. a marine heat wave is surprising scientists. sea surface temperatures are registering at the 90-degree mark between the southern tip of the state and the florida keys. the hot water could kill coral reefs in the area. that's why it's of such concern. there's fear it may provide fuel for a devastating hurricane season. thank you so much for joining us as you have every night this week. "cnn prime time with laura coates" described right now. >> what you described is my personal hell, hot tubs in the summer. >> i don't get in hot tubs

anyway, it's fine. i'm laura coates. a big show for you tonight. among my guests, chris wallace, audi cornish, former british prime minister boris johnson, who has very passionate things to say about vladimir putin's war and a potential trump/biden rematch. first, a nationwide manhunt after a dramatic jailbreak. tonight, learning about a suspicious coincidence around the time of the escape. the inmate is michael gurnam. he tied bedsheets to get down from a pennsylvania jail, bedsheets. he's a self-taught survivalist who may be hiding in the woods. as the search intensifies, investigators are now saying a drone was seen flying near the jail just before he escaped. >> i'm not a big believer in coincidences. but what i would tell you is

that just prior to the escape, there was a drone flying in that area. it could be that there is a perfectly innocent and reasonable explanation. it c thaould at it was somehow connected to his escape. >> cnn's shimon procue pez joins us now. there's a lot to this story. and an active manhunt? >> right, you get the sense the police really know a lot more than then telling us. you saw the lead, the head of the state police, and all the press conferences. he's been very careful about how much information he wants to give up. >> why do you think that is? >> i think they know a lot more than they're telling us. they seem to have clues and indications, strong indications he's getting help, strong indications he somehow is still in this area, perhaps in the woods, and maybe why they're pushing in because they expect he's going to get tired and somehow give up. the drone is something that we just learned about. and basically it's based off of witness accounts.

witnesses have come forward to say they heard something that sounded -- >> in the community? >> in the community. this is kind of a remote area. why would someone be flying a drone around the jail? there's a lot of suspicion over this. you bring up the point of this bedsheet. this is not just one bedsheet, these are several bedsheets tied together in these very specific and kind of tight knots that he had to use to climb down three stories. so this isn't two bedsheets, one bedsheet. these are several bedsheets that wine date perhaps he was stockpiling them. then the other thing we learned today which is significant is that there's security concerns at this jail. there was a hole in this fence. there was construction going on. issues with the fence. now the town is saying, we need to improve security, we need to start doing construction to secure this facility. there's a lot of questions still that need to be answered by the town and by the city officials there at the jail. >> the nature of the crimes he has committed, these are significant crimes. >> significant. >> abduction. >> brutal.

>> of an elderly couple. homicide. >> a suspect in a homicide. he was being held on $1 million bail, potentially facing the rest of his life in prison. and so the fact is that it seems that there was sort of this kind of, we have cameras there, we're watching him. there's no way people are going to escape. then you have this hole in this fence that he was able to get out of. so there's some real concerns, as i said, there. the other thing i want to know is who's helping him? >> right. >> they seem to keep indicating they believe he's getting help. who's helping him? the other thing today that was very significant, they released information that indicates they believe he's armed. more today than they did yesterday. so they keep getting new information. they're being very careful about how much they're telling us. obviously they're learning new things. there are so many questions still remaining here. >> absolutely. i can tell you one thing. if you are investigating it, we're going to find out the information in short order. and the community totally on edge, as they would be. by the way, this is part of a

string, we've heard a lot of reports about manhunts and escapees from a variety of different facilities. there's an investigation under way, i'm sure, at a more national level. shimon, nice to see you. now to a fact check and a real one. can we call it the raucous hearing on capitol hill with fbi director christopher wray in the hot seat, as he would have expected after all the buildup. republicans grilling wray about hunter biden and accusations of a weaponized government. while democrats seem to be grilling republicans. there were some moments that caught the eye of cnn's daniel dale. here's one of them. >> who is matthew graves? >> i believe matthew graves, at least the person i'm thinking of, i think he was u.s. attorney in the district of columbia. >> that's the person i'm thinking of too. are you aware he has promised more than 1,000 more individuals will be charged or indicted related to january 6th? >> i had heard he said that. >> it seems arbitrary, and there's reports it's kind of a

quasi quota system that he's put together for january 6th prosecutions. >> daniel, hearing this, and wow. it started out with a lot of call it momentum. what are the real facts about this claim of a quota? what's this about? >> the facts are that there was no quota, there was no promised number of arrests or charges. what appeared to be happening is congressman biggs was grossly misstating the contents of a "blam berg news" story about a letter that the chief federal prosecutor in d.c., matthew graves, wrote to the chief judge of the d.c. courts trying to estimate just how many cases they had coming down the pipeline clogging up the courts. that letter estimated, a broad range, it said, we'll have about, we think, 700 to 1,200 cases. and he emphasized over and over -- i have part of the letter from "bloomberg" -- he said, it's incredibly difficult to predict future cases given the nature and complexity of the investigation. bloomberg said the estimates could change as the office

continues to monitor charging statistics. so it would be terrible if a prosecutor had an arrest or charge quota, but it didn't happen here. >> but that was only the point, right? the point was to get that talking point out there, have people wonder. do they have the time to fact check? another moment, a claim that another republican congressman was floating about the idea that president biden is weaponizing the department of justice against trump specifically because he is afraid that he might lose the upcoming election. listen to this. >> now, it's my opinion that joe biden is the most unpopular president we have seen in a century, and that's why he knows the only way to stop president trump from beating him in november, putting him in jail. >> what do we need to know? >> look this claim has become gospel among trump allies in congress and elsewhere. there's no basis for it. there's simply no evidence that joe biden had any role whatsoever in the decision to prosecute, to charge president

trump in these -- in this document case. president biden says he hasn't even spoken to his attorney general, merrick garland, about it, and there's no evidence to contradict that claim to date. >> one of the things that people are wondering is, is the absence of evidence going to be something that will be coming out in all these hearings and can be confirmed? obviously part of this is trying to prove a negative. the absence of it there. it's very hard to be able to prove and guard against that. >> it is. it's a constant challenge for fact checker is. and for people more broadly who are interested in the truth. it's much easier to throw something out there and say, well, we don't have the facts, so therefore, he probably was involved and you can't debunk it. we can't debunk it, but the onus is on the people making dramatic claims to prove it, not the other way around. >> there was a moment the director was asked, more than once today, about an arizona man with conspiracy theories swirling around him for quite some time. listen to this particular question from gop congressman

troy neils. >> he was at the first breach, and he breached the restricted area. everybody, a lot of people getting arrested for not going into the capitol, but during the restricted area, yeah, ray epps, who many people feel, fed, fed, fed. there's a lot of the cloud over this. >> walk us through this entire notion. >> so i'll start at the end. that is, there's no evidence for this conspiracy theory. and mr. epps today announced a lawsuit, defamation lawsuit, against fox news for propagating the conspiracy theories. the broader point this is conspiracy theory about mr. epps is a subset of the broader conspiracy theory that this insurrection was incited not by donald trump, who fired people up with lies about the election, not by fox news that promoted those lies, but by the fbi under the presidency of donald trump for reasons -- it's complicated to follow. mr. epps, as you said, is an arizona man seen in videos on january 5th and january 6th

urging people to go to the capitol. he was seen at the site of the first breach. there's a famous video of him saying something, we can't hear it, to someone else at the breach. he was on capitol ground. the conspiracy theory is because he wasn't arrested, he was probably a fed, an undercover fbi, something or other. there are a lot of holes in this. first of all, i think the onus is on people to prove the theory. second, a whole lot of people on capitol grounds but did not commit violence weren't arrested. >> weren't arrested. >> mr. neils suggested that was rare and unusual? it's not. it is the norm. second of all, in this defamation lawsuit today, mr. epps' lawyer said they written formed in may by federal authorities that they did plan to pursue criminal charges against him. whether or not that happens, it hasn't happened yet, but i think that would undercut this claim that they're giving him special treatment because he was somehow a fed. >> of course, that's being responded to as well. "you're just pretending to have wanted to charge him." it goes on and on. >> never stops. >> daniel dale, thank you so

much, appreciate your time. as mentioned, ray epps tonight is suing fox news for defamation. well, frankly, over clips just like these. >> we do know from contemporary news video that a mysterious figure called "ray epps" encouraged the crowd to go into the capitol. for some reason, epps has never been indicted for that. never been charged, much less imprisoned in solitary confinement, like so many others. why is that? let's stop lying. at this point it's pretty obvious why that is. >> is it? i want to bring in attorney ken turkell, who arrested clients like hulk hoelg hogan and sarah palin. i'm glad you're here. we're talking about the umbrella of defamation. it's not enough to prove that the claims are false. more has to happen when you're talking about figures, and of course fox news. walk me through a little bit what was this has to -- what you have to prove in a case like this. >> it's going to be an actual

malice case are they pled it as a malice case. i read the complaint carefully. probably limited public figure status because you don't know who he is before this happens. i like to tell people, proving malice is to prove carlson knew it was false when he said it. or acted in reckless disregard of that truth. i tell people it's a subjective, undisclosed mental process. how do you know when someone knows they're lying? unless they tell you. which is dominion, because we had the emails and all this documentary evidence. but you're in that pond. and i don't care how good the case looks. i don't care how out of bounds a reporter was. it is the hardest standard of proof. i've tried these cases. they are exceedingly difficult. this one's transaction. i like this one a little bit. it's got some different stuff to it. it's hard. >> given the dominion case, though, does what happened in dominion, that is somehow going to be transferrable to a claim right now? he filed it in the same

jurisdiction, i believe, in delaware, where you had the dominion lawsuit. is this going to be cross-referenced in some way? if it is, you have a whole lot of things in those emails and conversations about the duty to even investigate or whether you were recklessly disregarding the truth or never in pursuit of it and about falsity. >> they've pled the case in a way that incorporates dominion. what i would call background facts. specifically, that epps and his wife relied on what fox was broadcasting about dominion as a predicate for why he goes to d.c. that he believed the stolen election theory because he was a loyal fox viewer, a trump loyalist, voted for him twice. like the way they've incorporated it. it makes sense if it's actually what happened. how far do you go? do you get into exactly what's ultimately proved? the settlement's confidential. how far did they get?

how much mileage? i don't know. but it's interesting. i kind of usually have a viscerally bad taste for that kind of linking things up to exbloit. >> sure. >> this one made sense to me, it fit the story. >> well, the story continues, as you know. we're following along. ken turkel, thank you for your expertise. we'll continue to lean on you. >> thanks for having me. speaking of fox, rupert murdoch is reportedly souring on governor ron desantis. hear who he wantses to jump into the gop race. chris wallace will join me to discuss. why an answer from rnc charron that mcgann nel surprised chris? >> should ukrainian accepted into nato? i mean, now? did president biden do the right thing on cluster munitions? former british prime minister boris johnson will join me for a lively interview, including his thoughts on the 2024 election.

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sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out. so why not check like i did for my small business? take the first step to see if your small business qualifies for the erc. here's a question. is there room in the 2024 race for another republican candidate? tonight, there seems to be an appetite. "the new york times" reports rupert murdoch, who owns fox news, has soured on the chances of florida governor ron desantis against donald trump. and that he actually wants virginia's glenn youngkin to join the field. joining me is chris wallace, host of "who's talking to chris

wallace?" glad to see you here today, chris. looking forward to our conversation. you know, it's pretty early, chris, but there does seem to be some republicans who are really worried about governor ron desantis. so what do you make of these rumblings of an appetite to have maybe more candidates enter into the race? >> well, politics abhors a vacuum, laura. when you see ron desantis, who a lot of people thought was going to be very competitive with if not blow past donald trump and he's languishing in the polls, lower now than he was when he first announced, other politicians are going to look and think, maybe there's a lane to be the prime contender against donald trump. and two of the names you hear are governors, glenn youngkin of virginia, brian kemp of georgia. it's easy to put out rumblings. it's a lot different to actually commit. but i would say that if ron desantis -- if he continues in trouble, let's say after the

first presidential debate in august of this year, i think they could get a little bit more serious than rumblings. >> chris, speaking about candidates, of course, whether they'll enter, you look at places like iowa as one of the main indicators of where people might be going if they intend to actually run. trump has now decided he is missing a second big event there. it's coming amidst a time when he's been attacking the very popular state governor. is that going to hurt him there? >> well, i can kind of understand his reluctance. there's a big evangelical family values event this weekend in iowa. and you know, as the former president and as the dominating front-runner at this point for the republican nomination, i'm not sure he wants to be in one of these cattle shows. it is interesting that he's taking some shots at the very popular republican governor of iowa, kim reynolds. i don't know that that's anything more than the fact that she is trying to stay neutral,

she's been quite friendly to ron desantis, and i think he's just ticked off. and in addition to which, you know, i know that we love to get ahead of ourselves here, laura. but i think what happens in july of '23 is going to have a limited effect on what's going to happen during the caucuses in january of '24. >> me get ahead of my skis, never, chris wallace what do you mean? i'll tell you, speaking of the republican race, you did sit down with the rnc chair, rana mcdaniel, for your show this week. she's frankly hedging on whether biden actually fairly won the 2020 election. let's have a listen. >> when did you stop being an election denier? >> i think saying there were problems with 2020 is very real. i don't think that's election denying. chris, i am from wayne county. we had a woman send a note saying, "i'm being told to back date ballots." we had to look into that.

that is deeply concerning. when you laugh friends who are poll watching and get kicked out, we have a right to look at that. everybody should have a little more concern -- >> wait a minute, are you saying as the chair of the republican party that you still have questions as to whether or not joe biden was the duly elected president in 2020? >> joe biden's the president -- >> i didn't ask whether he's the president. >> i don't think that -- >> do you think he won the election? >> i think there were lots of problems with question 2020. >> do you think he won the election. >> ultimately he won the election -- >> pardon me? >> ultimately he won the election but there were a lot of the problems with the 2020 election, 100%. >> that's fair. >> i don't think he won it fair, i don't. >> you're saying you're not sure, as the republican party chair that he was the legitimately elected -- >> i say there's a lot of the problems with the 2020 election and we need to fix it going forward. >> i understand the value of a yes-or-no response. you didn't get one there. what does that por tend for the tone of the race now? >> there are an awful lot of people, a lot of republicans who don't think joe biden won the

election fairly in 2020. even though he did, even though there were 60 court cases that said he did. and you've also got the front-runner, the overwhelming front-runner, donald trump, who natalie says that he won 2020. so i think as counterintuitive, counter logical, counter factual as it may be, it's hard for the chair of the republican national committee to come doubt and say, no, it was a fair election and joe biden won it. even if we all -- i say we all. if most people know, believe that that's the case. >> chris, stick around. be right back. got to ask you about joe manchin being cagey about a third-party run. plus boris johnson. his thoughts on ukraine,e, d do trump, joe biden. don't missss it.

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is joe manchin considering a third-party run? the democratic senator is not ruling it out as manchin announces he's going to new hampshire for a no labels conference. listen to his explanation.

>> the most important thing is how do we help democracy do what it's supposed to do? how do we help the process do what it's supposed to? to have commonsense discussions to find out what the american people would like to see accomplished, not just basically the toxic atmosphere we have because of political parties. >> are you ruling out a third-party bid? >> i've never ruled out anything or ruled in anything. this is just strictly a conference that we're having for common sense. >> back with chris wallace right after the buzzer there. chris what do you make of this consideration? david axelrod recently warned that a third-party candidate could very well hurt president biden's chances for re-election. >> in the last segment we were talking about rana mcdaniel not getting a yearn-answer. we didn't get one from joe manchin either. look, a third-party candidacy, and he's talking about doing that on the "no labels" banner potentially. you've got cornell west talking about doing it in the green

party. remember, back in 2020, joe biden won some of these key swing states. i think it was georgia by 11,000 votes. arizona by 10,000 votes. if you get joe manchin on the ballot -- if -- if you get cornell west on the ballot -- i think most people think that they would draw more votes from biden than they would from trump. then this is, you know, it's a three, four-person race. this absolutely hurts joe biden and increases the chances for donald trump if he's the republican nominee, whoever the republican nominee, of taking those swing states. it's a very big deal. if you're in the biden white house, this has to scare the heck out of you. >> the to have the noncommittal answer, not ruling anything out. you want to nail down an answer so you can essentially do what you need to do to course correct, if that's the case here. let's get to the good stuff, though, here. not that the whole political discussion is not great stuff. i want to get to the golden

stuff. because you sat down with goldie hawn and asked her about her famous decades-long relationship with kurt russell and about why they're not married. >> so the question i have, which people have been asking for more than 40 years. we're going to get into it. why aren't the two of you married? >> why should we get married? isn't that a better question? >> well, i suppose. but why aren't you married? >> because we have been married. and because when it doesn't work out, it ends up to be big business. somebody has to own something, it's always ugly. somebody has to actually take a look and say, how many divorces are fun? how many divorces actually -- >> none i've ever heard. >> -- don't cost money? how many divorces make you even hate the person more than you did before? how many divorces have hurt

children? >> you've been together 40 years, you're not going to get divorced. >> how would you know that then? >> i suppose that's a good question. >> i like waking up in the morning and making decisions every day to be here. >> every day you're making the choice, do i want to -- >> yeah. relationships are hard. they're not always easy. there's all kinds of hurdles we go through. there's things we believe in, things we don't believe in. we agree on. so i think ultimately, staying independent with independent thinking is important. so you can hold on to yourself and you can actually have that feeling. >> i was a golden hahn fan, but hearing her articulate it the way she has, just the way she seems to have thought it through, all of what she said seems very transferrable in other contexts in life, chris. >> yeah, i loved my interview with goldie hawn. we talk about her whole career

and how she started as that ditzy -- i have to say this to you, laura. i don't think i've ever seen a bigger difference between the public persona and the private persona of a public figure, particularly the movie star, than goldie hawn? >> really? >> an awful lot of us think of her, whether it was from "laugh in" or from "private benjamin," the kind of ditzy, charming, sweet, not especially bright young, very attractive girl. she is such a smart, such a thoughtful person. she's got a program right now in brain science called "mind up" that they teach brain science to kids in school to help them understand literally the physiology of what's going on up there so they can deal with their emotions. she's a fascinating, very thoughtful person. i will also tell you, my last trip out to l.a., i ended up having dinner. i guess this is dinner dropping. with goldie hawn and kurt russell. they fought like anything about

a lot of subjects. he's very conservative, she's not. he watches tv, the news in one room, she watches it in another room. and they love each other to death. >> wow. okay, fine. i'll come with you on your next trip, chris wallace, you don't have to convince me any longer, it's fine. really fascinating, i cannot wait. thank you for joining us. tune in to "who's talking to chris wallace?" every friday night at 10:00 eastern on cnn. fboris johnson sounding off on nato's reluctance to accept ukraine as a member and the russian conspiracy he thinks is "baloney." my interview with the former british prime minister next.

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the alliance, president biden and allies reassuring him at their summit in lithuania. but giving no specific timeline. i sat down for a one-on-one interview with boris johnson, britain's former prime minister who insists there's no excuse for delaying ukraine's membership. here's my conversation. mr. prime minister, thank you so much for joining us here today. thank you so much and congratulations, i think, are in order on the birth of your son. congratulations to you. >> very kind, thank you, thank you. >> this has been quite a week, as you can imagine. i want to begin with what's happening in nato, because president zelenskyy is quite upset for nato not having a particular timeline or a definitive one on the table for when ukraine might be considered for admission to membership. i wonder if you think that right now, given all that's happened and is currently occurring, should an exception be made for ukraine to be accepted in light

of them being embroiled in an active conflict? >> i think it's very, very important that we establish that ukraine is on the path now to nato membership. there can be no possible excuse or reason to keep phaffing around and delaying. the last remaining objection, you'll remember, was that it was going to be provocative to vladimir putin. well, we've seen what happens when you don't have ukraine in nato. you provoke the worst war in europe for 80 years. you need ukraine for certainty, for stability, and for the security, not just of ukraine but of russia as well. so everybody knows where the boundaries are and everybody knows who's protecting who. >> the president of ukraine talked about uncertainty, the word you're using as well, as a kind of weakness. the idea of being able to delineate the power dynamic, the role of the different countries, the longevity of this now

500-plus-day invasion into ukraine. is it factoring somehow, is it going to be an inevitable notion that ukraine will join the alliance, in light of all those things? >> yeah, ukraine's going to join the alliance. first of all, ukraine's got to win. and that's absolutely crucial. and i just say to everybody, if they think there's a negotiated solution we can do with vladimir putin, forget about it. there's no way that he's going to do a trade of land for peace. he's going to continue to keep attacking ukraine if he possibly can. that's clear from everything he's done. so the only way through this thing is for the ukrainians to win. we need to keep supplying them with the weaponry that they need, and we're being very effective in that, and that is good. training them in the use of the f-16s and the jets. but after that, two things happen. first of all, we're going to make some security guarantees. as you heard from the nato summit, some countries are going

in advance of nato membership. like the uk and the u.s. and we're saying, we're going to help fortify ukraine, give it nato quality equipment, send our troops there, put british soldiers, why not british troops in bases in ukraine? and so kind of fortify the quills of the ukrainian porcupine, that it is never attacked again by russia. that's step one. step two is to negotiate full nato membership. and i think that's now a question of when, not if. >> speaking of the former aspect of the quills of the ukrainian porcupine, as you point out, one of the aspects of trying to arm and trying to support ukraine has been the provision or the decision to now provide cluster musicians to ukraine. in fact, president zelenskyy spoke to the reporters earlier today to suggest, look, i know

people have been very, very critical of the use of this particular notion. he alerted the public, reminding them that russia has in its own weapon arsenal similar things that have been banned by other nations. the uk has denounced the u.s. over the decision to send these cluster munitions. are you against president biden's decision to send these cluster munitions? >> no, laura. i'm for what the president has done. i think it is brave and right. it was a difficult decision. look, the uk is a signatory, like many countries, of the anti-cluster munitions weapons convention. and that's because traditionally, historically, these weapons have been used in a way that leaves behind little bomblets, little bits of ordnance, lying around in fields in the developing world where they're picked up by kids and have appalling consequences. and so that's why there's been a general reluctance to see the use of proliferation of cluster munitions. but this is a very different

case. we're talking about helping the ukrainians to win a war in their own country. when what they need to do is punch through these very heavily protected russian dugouts and trenches, get the russians out as fast as possible. >> mr. prime minister, as you well know, recently president vladimir putin faced a shored-lived rebellion from the wagner group. prigozhin said he was not engaged in a rebellion, he was engaged in protest. you can quibble as to the access of that statement or believability of that. i wonder what you made of that short-lived rebellion, and do you think vladimir putin's grip on power is now, as a result, in peril? >> look, i think all sorts of people have come up with all sorts of theories about what was really happening in their claiming it was now a kind of -- orchestrated by putin to show that, you know, there could be someone worse than putin, or

whatever. i think, frankly, that's a load of baloney. i think that what happened was this guy, prigozhin, showed that he's no great respecter of vladimir putin. he showed he's no great respecter of the authority of the kremlin. and i think that sent a real signal around the world about the political mortality of vladimir putin. >> one could imagine perhaps his life, given the fact that putin is no real friend of those who oppose him. do you think prigozhin's life is at risk as a result of him identifying or suggesting that it was propaganda-based this entire invasion, trying to persuade the russian people and the military to go along with what putin wanted even when there is not the evidence that was there to support his reasoning? >> i think you're absolutely right. i think that it was a most extraordinary moment when

prigozhin, who everybody has hitherto believed to be putin's manservant, the guy who hands him the cordon bleu cooking or whatever, suddenly seems to rebel and said the war in ukraine wasn't justified. and i think that the impact is going to be very, very considerable. whether prigozhin's own physical safety can be guaranteed or not, i don't know, laura. i think the truth is that there may be -- he may yet get his comeuppance. on the other hand, he did see putin, as we understand it, just a few hours after his aborted coup. >> when it comes to ukraine, of course we are about a year and a half now away, mr. prime minister, from a presidential election. there is a purported front-runner who has been the president before, of course

speaking of donald trump. what do you think a potential donald trump second term might do for support for the country of ukraine? would it be in jeopardy? >> never forget, laura, whatever people say about president trump, it was donald trump who authorized the shipment of those javelin missiles to ukraine, which i think were indispensable in breaking the taboo on arming the ukrainians in the way so many other countries, particularly the uk, have done. i can tell you frankly, when i took the decision to send shoulder-launched anti-tank weaponry from the uk to help the ukrainians, that was very much encouraged by what president trump had already done in sending the javelins. the javelins were very important. so, you know, president trump has a strong record already in

helping the ukrainians. i appreciate that in the -- it's not for me to comment on what's happening in the american presidential campaign. i can appreciate all sorts of people will say all sorts of things. but i believe very strongly that when that election is finished, if it were -- if president trump were to be elected, or indeed, if president biden were to continue, i have absolutely no doubt that the interests of the united states of america would remain foursquare behind freedom and ukraine. >> we are here in the united states, grappling with a whole host of issues surrounding governmental transparency and the like. i know the uk and the world is still coming to terms with the loss of the covid-19 outbreak. and there has been an inquiry, of course, into the government, your government's handling of the crisis, and it stands very important to get to the bottom of a number of issues. you have been asked to hand over

all of your whatsapp messages and phones from the period that was requested. why haven't you done so in the investigation? >> i'm very happy -- this is a pretty abstruse issue. you're right, there's an inquiry going on. it's very broad. they have access to the maximum possible information. as it happens, i'm very happy for my stuff to be handed over in unredacted form ahead of the inquiry date, to have a look, say this is relevant, this isn't relevant. and there is an objection from the uk government itself, which i don't any longer represent, and they are just anxious that in future, ministers' correspondence should not be handed over wholesale to inquiries. it happens in my own particular case, that's fine. i want the whole thing out there. >> you have a new son. his name, frank alfred

addissious johnson, i'm a fan of greek mythology, tell me what's behind the name. >> how kind of you to ask. i we just like the names. addissious, they was the great polymateous odysseus. he went through all sorts of experiences and came through them. he was a pretty -- he heard the siren voices, you'll remember, laura. and he lashed himself to the mast in order not to be tempted by the sirens. and he meets calypso there on the island. what else does he get up to? he goes through the clashing rogs. he goes into the underworld. he goes into the underworld! i can't remember what it is he does in the end. >> i think he was trying to best them from being able to reclaim

people who wanted to leave and -- in other words, he's got quite a journey. is that what you were hoping for your son? as a mother i'm wondering, all the things you named, i'm about to have a prime heart attack, m prime minister, on his journey ahead. >> i'm sure his odyssey will be much calmer and more enjoyable than ancient odysseus, provided we stick up for peace and democracy. what's happening now is a pivotal war in the early 21st century. this really matters. america has been brilliant. i want to tell all your viewers, america has been wonderful. amichas made possible an all we need now is for america to stick with it. >> thank you for coming full circle in the conversation today and -- i appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> so, now, will we finally

learn who brought cocaine into the white house? there are some new developments ahead. plus, could you be prosecuted -- should you have an abortion. audie cornish joins me now on the legal landscape, and joins me now in this post roe america. at no upfront cost. sosometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out. so why not check like i did for my small business? take the first step to see if your small business qualifies for the erc.

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legal view of this. cnn's audie cornish recently sat down with attorneys who have been defending women who are criminally prosecuted under various state laws. >> what we were most afraid of happening has come to pass, and probably even worse, because we have got patients who are traveling hundreds of miles to get care. they are deciding whether to pay their light bill or use that money for their abortion, and their travel. and we are seeing doctors who are so afraid of being prosecuted, even in cases where the abortion would clearly fall under an exception, that the fetus had absolutely no chance of surviving, the patient was literally bleeding out, near sepsis -- and we are seeing those doctors so afraid because of the criminal penalties associated with that abortion ban, that those patients are, again, traveling hundreds of miles and leaving the state. >> audie cornish joins me now.

audie, just thinking about how every day it seems, every month, almost, we are seeing another legislative initiative at times, and also it's becoming the question of, how do these attorneys now navigate this new landscape? your podcast goes into great detail in these conversations. so, what are they doing? >> what they are finding that there are sort of two tiers that they are dealing with. if you are a doctor or care provider who does perform abortions, obviously, in states where it is now criminalized, you might need support or defending. also, what we heard in that clip was the idea of traveling from state to state. there is a whole network of people now who are helping people get hotel rooms. giving that money to travel. those people, under certain state laws, could be charged without betting. the other thing we have learned is that it has opened wider the prosecutorial discretion to charge people with kind of criminal charges, such as child neglect, right? it has opened the door for fetal personhood laws to be

used in criminal cases, which means you can be in the hospital, you have a stillbirth or a miscarriage -- maybe child services. or maybe the hospital itself test you four drugs. and if it is found that you had some sort of substance in your system, there is a world where you could be charged with child neglect. this happened a lot during the war on drugs in the late 80s, mid 90s. and people are looking now at the potential resurgence of this. and that is what some of the attorneys we spoke to talked about. >> you know, interestingly enough, at the supreme court level, in all of the cases leading up to the dobbs decision, some of the chilling effect that you are speaking about now, where the concerns -- they were evident and they were there and they were discussed, about the notion of a medical provider having to think about the cost-benefit analysis of the legalities and the implications, as opposed to the provision of care and that was part of the argument. and so on the legal horizon, then and on the horizon more broadly, we see legislative initiatives, obviously, and

iowa and beyond. but what is sort of the next frontier now of this discussion when states are in control? when we are in this post-dobbs world? it might be an invisible ink on every ballot, the issue of abortion. but what is this next political frontier in addressing it? >> right. so, first of all, you are going to see a push for fetal personhood laws, or pushes for legislation that would say, you cannot cross state lines, et cetera. so, just because the state has a ban does not mean that's the end of the story. there may be a further legislative push to say, look, people cannot cross state lines to get an abortion elsewhere. there's also an ongoing battle with the fda over abortion pills. >> mifepristone. >> exactly. so, medicated abortions are going to be a huge battle. because that is actually -- i think, at this point -- the majority way that women do administer abortions for themselves. and so that conversation is happening at the national level

with the government and the administration. but i bet you are also going to see more of that being discussed, and legislated in the states. >> and probably a political litmus test at the state and local level as well. audie cornish, fascinating. thank you so much. >> thank you so much for having me. >> well, you can catch audie's. it's called the assignment -- wherever you get your podcasts. trust me, you don't want to miss out. up next, another incident on a single stage. see what happened there during the summer of'69.

>> all right. so, before we go, we have seen all these objects being thrown at artists on stages recently. and now it seems one fan has actually thrown himself onto bryan adams stage. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> -- john berman, as i handed off to you, you know brian adams did not miss a beat, just treate