basically, it's based off of witness accounts. witnesses have come forward to say that they had heard something, that sounded -- >> in the community? >> in the community. and this is kind of a remote area. and why would somebody be flying a drone around a jail. so, of course, there is a lot of suspicion over this. and you know, you bring up the point of the spreadsheet. i mean, this is not just one bedsheet. these are several bedsheets that were tied together in these very specific and kind of tight knots that he had to use to climb down three stories. so, this is not two, one bedsheet, these are several bedsheets that would perhaps indicate he's stockpiling them. perhaps the other thing we learned today that is significant is that some security concerns at this jail. there is a hole in this fence, there is construction going on, there are some issues with the fans. so, now the town is saying, wait a second, we need improve security, we need to start doing some construction here to secure this facility. so, there is a lot of still questions that need to be answered by the town, by the city officials there in the town. >> the nature the crimes that he has committed, i mean, these

are significant crowds. >> significant, brutal -- >> abduction of an elderly couple, homicide. he's >> also a suspect in a homicide. he's been held on 1 million dollars bail, potentially facing the rest of his life in prison. so, the fact is that, you know, it seems that there were sort of this kind of, you know, we have cameras there, we're watching him, there is no way people are going to escape here. then you have this hole in the fence that he was able to get out of. so, there are some real concerns, as i said there. another thing they want to know is who is helping him. >> right. >> they seem to keep indicating they believe he's getting help, who's helping him. and the other thing i think today that was very significant, that they released information that indicates they do believe he's armed, more today than they did yesterday. so, they keep getting new information. they've been very careful how much they're telling us. but obviously, they're learning new things. and there's just so many questions still remaining here. >> absolutely, well, i can tell you one thing, if you are investigating it, we're going

to find out the information in short order. a community, of course, totally on edge, as they would be. and by the way, this is part of the strain -- we've heard of a lot of reports of manhunts in escapees from a variety of different facilities. there is an investigation, i'm sure, underway, at a national level. shimon, nice to see you. >> they see you. >> now to a fact check, and a real one, not that, we'll, can we call it the raucous hearing on capitol hill, with fbi director christopher wray in the hot seat, as he would've expected to have been after all of the buildup. republicans were grilling wray about hunter biden and accusations of a weaponized government, while democrats seem to be grilling republicans. there were some moments that caught the eye of cnn's daniel dale, here is one of them. >> who is matthew graves? >> i believe matthew graves, at least the person i'm thinking of, i think, is the u.s. attorney in the district of columbia. >> that's the person i'm thinking of two. you -- or you wear these promised more than 100 -- 1000 more interview will be charged in related to january

6th? >> i've not heard that he said that. it >> seems arbitrary, and there's reports that it's kind of a quasi-quota system that he's put together for january 6th prosecutions. >> all right, so, daniel, hearing this, and wow, it started out with a lot of, we'll call it, momentum. what are the real facts about this claim of a quota? what's this about? >> the facts are, laura, that there was no quota, there was no promised number of arrests for charges. what appears to be happening here is that congressman biggs was grossly misstating the contents of a bloomberg news story. that story was about a letter that the chief federal prosecutor in d.c., matthew graves, wrote to the chief judge of the d.c. courts, trying to estimate just how many cases they have coming down the pipeline, clogging up the courts. and that letter estimated, it was a broad range, said we will have about, we think, 700 to 1200 cases. and he emphasized over and over, i have a part of the letter here from bloomberg, he said it's incredibly difficult to predict future cases, given the nature and complexity of the investigation.

bloomberg said he ended the letter by saying the estimates could change, as the office continues to monitor charging statistics. so, it would be terrible if a prosecutor had an arrest or charge quota. but it just didn't happen here. >> but, that is not the point, the point is to get that talking point out there and have people wonder, and do they have the time to fact check. good thing we have you here. there is another moment as well, and that was a claim that in other republican congressman was floating about the idea that president biden is weaponizing the department of justice against trump specifically, because he is afraid he might lose the upcoming election. listen to this. >> now, it's my opinion joe biden is the most unpopular president we have seen in a century, and that's why he knows the only way to stop president trump from beating him in november it's by putting him in jail. >> what do we need to know? >> look, this claim has become gospel among trump allies and congress and elsewhere. there is no basis for it. there's simply no evidence that joe biden had any role

whatsoever in the decision to prosecute, to charge president trump in this document case. president biden says he has even spoken to his attorney general, merrick garland, about it. there's no evidence to contradict that climb today. >> you know, one of the things people are wondering, bill, is the absence of evidence going to be something that will be coming out in all of these hearings and can be confirmed? because obviously, part of this is trying to prove a negative, the absence of it there, it it's very hard to be able to prove and guard against that. >> it is, it is a constant challenge for fact-checker's and for people more broadly who are interested in the truth. it's much easier to throw something out there and say, well, you know, we don't have the facts, so, therefore, he probably was involved and you can't debunk it. well, we can debunk it, but i think the onus is on the people making dramatic claims to prove it, not the other way around. >> there's also a moment the director was also asked, more than once today, actually, daniel, about an arizona man would conspiracies theories

that have been swirling around for quite some time. listen to this particular question from gop congressman troy mills. >> he was at the first breach, any breach the restricted area. everybody, a lot of people getting arrested for not going into the capitol, but during the restricted area, but yeah, reacts, who many people feel, fed, fed, fed and, there's a lot of cloud over this. >> walk us through this entire notion. >> so, i'll start at the end. that is there is no evidence for this conspiracy theory. and mr. apps today announced a lawsuit, defamation lawsuit, against fox news for propagating the conspiracy theories. the broader point, lawyer, is this conspiracy theory about mr. epps is a subset of the broader conspiracy theory that this insurrection at the u.s. capital was actually incited, not by donald trump, who fired people up with his lies about the election, not by saying fox news, that promoted those lies to you, but by the fbi under the presidency of donald trump for reasons. it's complicated to follow.

but mr. epps, as you said, is an arizona man. he's seen in videos on january 5th injury sixth, again, urging people to go to the capitol. he was seen on the side of the first breach. there was a famous video of him saying something, we can't hear to someone else, at the breed. he was on capitol grounds. and conspiracy theory is that because he was not arrested, he was probably a fed, he was an undercover fbi something or other. there are a lot of holes in this. first of all, again, i think the onus is on people to prove the theory. second of all, a whole lot of people who went on capitol grounds but did not commit violence or -- >> weren't arrested. >> they were arrested. so, mr. troy nehls suggested here, that was rare an unusual. it's not in fact, in fact, that is the norm. second of all, in this defamation lawsuit today, mr. epps said they weren't informed. they were informed in made by federal authorities that they did plan to pursue criminal charges against him. now, whether not that happens, has not happened yet. but i think that would undercut this claim that, you know, they're giving him special treatment, because he was somehow a fed. >> and of course, that's being responded to as, well, you're just pretending to have wanted

to charge him in some way. it goes on and on. it >> never stops, yeah. >> daniel dale, thank you so much, i appreciate your time. and as daniel mentioned, ray epps tonight is suing fox news, now for defamation. well, frankly, over clips just like these. >> we do know from contemporaneous video team that a mysterious figure named ray epps encourage the crowd to go into the capitol. for some reason, epps as everett indicted for that. >> he's never been charged, much less imprisoned in solitary confinement, like so many others. why is that? well, let's just stop lying. at this point, is pretty obvious why that is. >> is it? i want to bring in attorney ken turkel, who represented clients like hold hogan and sarah palin. can, i'm glad you're here. first of all, we're talking about the umbrella of defamation. it's not enough to prove that the claims are false. more has to happen. we are talking about figures, and of course, fox news. walk me through a little bit of what this has, what you have to

actually prove in a case like this. >> it's going to be an actual malice case. they plotted as an actual malice case, i read the complaint pretty carefully, probably-limited public figure status because you don't know who he is before this happens. but what i like to tell people is proving action analysis is to prove carlson knew it was false when he said it, or acted in reckless disregard of that truth. which i tell people is a subjective undisclosed mental process. how do you know when someone knows they're lying, unless they tell you, which is dominion, because we had the emails and all this, this documentary evidence. but you're in that pond. and i don't care how good the case looks. i don't care how out of bounds the reporter was. it is the hardest standard of proof. i've tried these, cases they're exceedingly difficult. this one is interesting. i like this one a little bit it's got some different stuff to it. >> well, given that dominion -- given the dominion case, what happened with dominion, is that

somehow going to be transferable to acclaim right now? he filed in the same jurisdiction, i believe, in delaware, where you have the dominion lawsuit also being filed. is this going to be a cross reference in some way? because if it is, you have a whole lot of things in those emails and conversations about the duty to even investigate or whether you are recklessly disregarded the truth or never in pursuit of it and about falsity. >> they've pled the case in a way that incorporates dominion, and what i would call background facts, specifically that epps's wife relied on what fox was broadcasting about dominion as a predicate for why he goes to d.c., that he believes the stolen election theory because he was a loyal fox viewer, a trump loyalist, voted for him twice, they allege that. so i like the way they've incorporated, because it makes sense if it is actually what happened. how far do you go, laura? do you get into what was actually proved, the

settlements confidential, how far did they get, how much mileage, i don't know. but it's interesting. -- this really bad taste for that kind of linking up to exploit. >> right. >> this one made enough sense to me. it fits the story. >> well, the story continues, as you know. and we're following along. ken turkey, thank you for your expertise. we'll continue to lean on you. i appreciate it. >> good seeing you again, laura. thanks for having me again. >> thank you. and look, speaking of fox, rupert murdoch is reportedly souring on governor ron desantis. here who he wants to jump into the gop race. chris wallace will join me to discuss. plus, why an answer from rnc chair -- mcdowell surprised chris. and should ukraine be accepted into nato? i mean, now? but did president biden do the right thing on cluster munitions? former british prime minister boris johnson will join me for a lively interview, including his thoughts on the 2024 election.

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wallace, the host of who's talking to chris wallace. glad to see you here today, chris. conversation. you know, it's pretty early, chris, but there does seem to be some republicans who are really worried about governor ron desantis. so, what do you make of these rumblings of an appetite to have maybe more candidates enter into the race? >> well, politics abhors a vacuum, laura, and when you see ron desantis, who a lot of people thought was gonna be very competitive with, if not blow past donald trump, and he's languishing in the polls, actually lower now than when he first announced, other politicians are going to look and think maybe there is a line to be the prime contender against donald trump. and to the names you hear our governors, glenn youngkin of virginia, brian kemp of georgia. you know, it's easy to put out rumblings, that's a lot different than actually commit. but i would say that of ron desantis, and if he continues

in trouble, let's say, after the first presidential debate in august of this year, i think they could get a little more serious than rumblings. >> chris, speaking about candidates, of course, and whether they'll enter, you look at places like iowa, of course, as one of the main indicators of our people might be going if they intend to actually run. trump has now decided he is missing a second big event there. it's coming amid a time when he's been attacking the very popular state governor. so, is that going to hurt him there? >> well, i could kind of understand his reluctance. there is a big evangelical family values event this weekend in iowa. and you know, as the former president, and as the dominating front runner at this point for the republican nomination, i'm not sure he wants to be in one of these cattle shows. it is interesting that he's taking some shots at the very popular republican governor of iowa, kim reynolds. i don't think that's anything

more than the fact that she is trying to stay neutral. she's been quite friendly to ron desantis, and i think he's just ticked off. and then in addition to which, i know that we'd love to get ahead of our selves here, laura, but i think what happens in july of 23 is going to have a limited effect on what's going to happen during the caucuses in january of 24. >> me, get ahead of my skis? never, chris wallace, what do you mean? i tell you, speaking of the republican race, you did sit down with the rnc chair, mcdaniel, for your show this week. and she is still -- frankly, she's hedging on whether biden fairly won the 2020 election. let's have a listen. >> when did you stop being an election denier? >> [laughter] i think saying that there were problems with 2020 is very real. i don't think that's election denying. i mean, chris, i was -- i'm from playing county. i had a woman sent a note saying i'm the intel to mandate

ballots. we had to look into that. that's deeply concerning. when you have friends who are pollacheck a been kicked out, that's deeply concerning. we have every right to look at that. and i think everyone should have a little more concerned about, listen, are you -- >> wait a minute, are you saying as a chair of the republican party that you have questions about whether or not joe biden as the duly elected president? >> joe biden is the president. >> i did ask you if he's the president. do you think he won? did he win the election? >> i think there are lots of problems with 2020. because ultimately he, won the election, ultimately, he won the election, but there are lots of problems with the 2020 elections, 100%. >> and that's fair. >> and i don't think he won it fair. i don't. i'm not going to say that. >> you are saying you're not sure, as a republican party chair, that he was legitimately elected. >> i'm saying there is lots of problems with the 2020 election, and we need to fix it going forward. >> i mean, chris, i understand the value of a yes or no response. you did not get one there. so, what does that portend for this tone of the entire race now? >> well, look, there are an awful lot of people, an awful

lot of republicans who don't think joe biden won the election fairly in 2020, even though he did, even though there are 60 court cases that said he did. and you've also got the front runner, the overwhelming front runner, donald trump, who flatly says that he won 2020. so, you know, as counter intuitive, counter logical, counterfactual as it may be, it's hard for the chair of the republican national committee to come out and say flatly, no, it wasn't a fair election, and joe biden won it, even if we all, i say we all, most people, if most people believe that's the case. >> chris, stick around, we'll be right back. i got to ask you about joe manchin being cagey about a third party run. plus, in moments, my interview with boris johnson. his thoughts on ukraine, president biden, and donald front. don't miss it.

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♪ new double chicken chopped salads. >> is joe manchin concerning a third party? len i mean, the democratic senator is not ruling it out, as manchin announced he's going to new hampshire for a no labels conference. listen to his explanation. >> the most important thing is how do we help democracy do what its focus to do, how do we help the process, the political process we have, do what it's supposed to. that's with common sense discussions to find out what the american people would like to see accomplished, not just basically the toxic atmosphere we have because of political parties. that's what -- >> so, are you ruling out a third party bid? >> i haven't ruled out anything or -- this is strictly a conference were having, i promise.

>> back with chris wallace, right at the buzzer there. chris, what do you make of this consideration? i mean, david axelrod recently warned that a third party candidate could very well heard president biden's chances for reelection. >> you know, and our last section we, we're talking about ronna mcdaniel not giving a yes or no answer. we're not getting one from joe manchin either. look, a third party candidacy, and he's talking about doing it on the new labels manner banner, identity, you got cornell west talking about doing it with the green party. remember, back in 2020, joe biden won some of these key swing states, i think it was georgia by 11,000 votes, arizona by 10,000 votes. if you get joe manchin on the ballot, if, if you get cornell west on the ballot, and i think most people think that they would draw more votes from biden than they would for trump, and this is, you know, it's a three person race, a four person race, this absolutely

hurts joe biden and increases the chances for donald trump, if he's the republican nominee, whoever the republican nominee, of actually taking a lot of those swing states. so, it's a very big deal. and if you're in the biden white house, this has got to scare the heck out of you. >> and have the noncommittal answer of it and not ruling anything out, if your strategist looking ahead trying to figure out where to go from here, you want to nail down an answer so you can actually essentially do what you need to do to course correct, if that's the case here. let's get to the good stuff though here, not that the whole political question is not great stuff, but i want to get to the golden stuff, shall we say, because you sat down with goldie hawn and asked her about her famous decades-long relation with kurt russell, and about why they're not married. listen. >> so, the question i have with people who been asking for more than 40 years, we're going to get into it, why aren't the two of you married? >> why should we get married? isn't that a better question?

>> well, i suppose. but why aren't you married? >> because we had been married. and because when it doesn't work out, it ends up to be big business. somebody has to own something, it's always ugly. somebody has to, you know, actually take a look and say how many, how many divorces are fun? how many divorces -- >> none i've ever heard. >> how many divorces actually cost money? how many divorces make you hate the person than you did before? how many divorces have hurt children? >> but you've been together 40 years, you're not going to get divorced. >> well, how did you know that then? >> well, i suppose that's a good question. >> i like the idea that i could wake up in the morning and make decisions every day if i want to be here. >> sort of every day, you are making the choice, do i want to -- >> yeah, you know, relationships are hard. they're not always easy. there's all kinds of hurdles we go through, there's things we believe and things we don't

believe and we agree on. so, i think, ultimately, staying independent with independent thinking is important. so, you can hold on to yourself and you can actually have that feeling. >> i mean, i was a goalie hawn fan before, but just hearing her articulate in the way that she has, and just the way she has seemed to have thought it through. and all of what she said seems to be transferable and other contacts in life, likely, chris? >> yeah, i love my interview with all the, and we talked about her whole career and how she starred as that tipsy -- i've to say this to you, laura, i don't think i've ever seen a bigger difference between the public persona and the private persona of a public figure, particularly of a movie star, and goldie hawn. because a awful lot of us think of her, you know, whether it was from laugh in or from private benjamin, you know, the kind of did see charming sweet not especially bright but,

young, very attractive girl. she is such a smart, such a thoughtful person. she's got a program right now in brain science called mind up, they teach brain signs to kids in school to help them understand literally the physiology of what's going on up there is so they can deal with their emotions. she is a fascinating, very thoughtful person. i will also tell you, my last trip out to l.a., i ended up having dinner, i guess this is dinner dropping, with goldie hawn and kurt russell. they fought like anything about a lot of subjects. he's very conservative, she's not. he watches tv, the news in one room, she watches it into another room, and they love each other to death. >> wow, okay, fine, i'll come on you with your next trip, chris wallace. you don't have to convince me any longer, it's five. i gotta tell you, really fascinating, i cannot wait. thank you for joining us today. and be sure to tune into who's talking to chris wallace, it's every friday night at ten eastern on cnn.

boris johnson sounding off on nato's reluctance to accept ukraine as a member, and the russia conspiracy he thinks is, quote, baloney. my interview with the former british prime minister, next. ♪ ♪ ♪ up to 8 weeks of relief with cytopoint. that's a lot more fun time, right max? yup. it's life-changing time. ♪ ♪ cytopoint is a long-lasting treatment for allergic dermatitis. just one injection given by your veterinarian can control allergic itch for 4-8 weeks.

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>> just hours after ukrainian president zelenskyy sharply criticize nato for saying that his country isn't ready to join the alliance, president biden and allies reassuring him at the summit in lithuania. but of course, giving no specific timeline. i sat down with a one-on-one interview today with boris johnson, britain's former prime minister, who insists there is no excuse for delaying ukraine's membership. here is my conversation. >> mister prime minister, thank you so much joining us here today. thank you so much, and congratulations, i think, are in order on the birth of your

son. congratulations to you. >> very kind, thank you, thank you. >> this has been quite a week, as you can imagine. i want to begin with what is happening in nato, because president zelenskyy is quite upset for a nato not having a particular timeline or definitive one on the table for when ukraine might be considered for admission to membership. i wonder if you think that, given right now, all that has happened and that is currently occurring, should an exception be made for ukraine to be accepted in light of them being embroiled in an active conflict? >> laura, i think it's very, very important that we establish that ukraine is on the path now to nato membership. there can be no possible excuse or reason to keep farting around and delaying. the last remaining objection remaining among them was that it was going to be provocative to vladimir putin. well, we've seen what happens when you don't have ukraine in nato, you provoke the worst war in europe for 80 years.

you need, you need ukrainian for certainty, for stability, and for the security, not just of ukraine, but of russia as well. so, everybody knows where the boundaries are, and everybody knows who is protecting you. >> the president of ukraine talked about uncertainty, the word you are using as well, as a kind of weakness, and the idea of being able to delineate the power dynamic, the role of the different countries, and of course, the longevity of this now 500 plus day invasion into ukraine. is a factor in this somehow going to be an inevitable notion that ukraine will join the alliance, in light of all those things? >> yeah, ukraine is going to join the alliance. but first of all, ukraine has got to win. and that's absolutely crucial. and i just say to everybody, you know, they think, if you think there's a negotiated solution we can do with vladimir putin, forget about it. there is no way that he's going to do a trade of land for peace. he's going to continue to keep

attacking ukraine, if he possibly can. that's clear from everything he's done. so, the only way through this thing is for the ukrainians to win. we need to keep supplying them with the weaponry that they need. and we're being very effective in that. and that is good without training them in the use of the f-16s in the jets. but after that, two things happen. first of all, we're going to make some security guarantees, as you heard from the nato summit. some countries are going in advance of nato membership. so, like the uk, and the u.s.. and we're saying we're going to help fortify ukraine, given nato quality equipment, send our troops there, put british soldiers -- why not british troops in bases in ukraine? and so, kind of fortify the quills of the ukrainian porcupine that it is never

attacked again by russia. that step one. step two is to negotiate for nato membership. and i think that's now a question of when, not if. >> speaking of the former aspect of the quills of the ukrainian porcupine, as you pointed out, one of the aspects of trying to arm and trying to support ukraine has been the provision or the decision to now provide cluster munitions to ukraine. in fact, president zelenskyy spoke to the reporters earlier today to suggest, look, i know people have been very, very critical of the use of this particular notion. healer the public, of course, reminding them that russia has within its own weapons arsenal similar things that have been banned by other nations. the uk has denounced the u.s. over the decision to send these cluster munitions. are you against president biden's decision to send these cluster munitions? >> no, laura, i'm up for what the president has done. i think it is brave and right. it was a difficult decision. look, the uk is a signatory,

like many countries, of the anti cluster munitions weapons convention. and that's because traditionally and historically, these weapons have been used in a way that leaves behind little bomblets, little bits of ordinance lying around and fields in the developing world. they're picked up by kids, and have appalling consequences. so, that's why there's been a general reluctance to see the use of proliferation of cluster munitions. but this is a very different case. we're talking about helping the ukrainians to win a war in their own country. and what they need to do is to punch through these very heavily protected russian dugouts and trenches, and get the russians out of the land bridge as fast as possible. >> mister prime minister, as you well know, recently, but flattering putin faced a short-lived rebellion from the wagner group. of course, prigozhin has said he was not engaged in a rebellion, he was engaged in a

protest. you can cripple was whether there's accuracy in that statement or believability of that. but i wonder what you made of that short-lived rebellion, and you think that vladimir putin's grip on power is now the result in peril? >> look, i think all sorts of people come up with all sorts of theories about what was really happening in their, claiming that it was now kind of orchestrated by putin to show that, you know, there could be someone worse than putin or whatever. i think frankly that's a load of baloney. i think that what happened was this guy prigozhin showed that he's no great respect or a vladimir putin. he shows no great respect or of the authority of the kremlin. and i think that sent a real signal around the world about the political mortality of vladimir putin. >> one could imagine perhaps his life, given the fact that putin is no real friend of

those who oppose him. do you think prigozhin's life is at risk as a result of him identifying or suggesting that it was propaganda based, this entire invasion, and trying to persuade the russian people and military to go along with what putin wanted, even when there is not the evidence that was there to support his reasoning? >> i think you're absolutely right. i think it was a most extraordinary moment when prigozhin, who everyone has hitherto believed to be kind of putin's jeeves, his man servant, the guy who handsome the cordon bleu cooking or whatever, suddenly seem to rebel and said that the war in ukraine wasn't justified. and i think that the impact is going to be very, very considerable. whether prigozhin's own physical safety can be

guaranteed or not, i don't know, laura. i think that the truth is that, you know, there may be, he may yet get his confidence. on the other hand, he did see putin, as we understand it, just a few hours after his abortive coup. >> when it comes to ukraine, of course, we are about a year and a half away now, mister prime minister, from a presidential election. there is a purported front runner who has been the president before, of course, we're speaking of donald trump. what do you think of a potential donald trump second term might do for support of the country of ukraine? would it be in jeopardy? >> never forget, laura, that whatever people say about president trump, it was donald trump who authorized the shipment of those javelin missiles to ukraine, which i think we're indispensable in breaking the taboo on arming ukraine and the way that so many other countries,

particular the uk, iran. and i can tell you, frankly, that when i took the decision to send but -- shoulder launched anti tank weaponry from the uk to help the ukrainians, that was very much encouraged by what president trump had already done in sending the javelins. and the javelins were very important. so, you know, president trump as a strong record already in helping the ukrainians. i appreciate that in the, it's odd for me to comment on what's happening in the american presidential campaign. i can appreciate that all sorts of people say all sorts of things. but i believe very strongly that when that election is finished, if it were, if president trump were to be elected, or if president biden were to continue, i have absolutely no doubt that the interests of the united states of america would remain four

square behind freedom and ukraine. >> you know, we are here in united states, obviously, grappling with a whole host of issues surrounding governmental transparency and the like. and i know the uk and the world is still coming to the terms with the loss of the covid-19 outbreak. and there's been an inquiry of course into the government, your government's handling of the crisis. and it stands very important to get to the bottom of a number of issues. you've been asked to hand over all of your whatsapp messages and phones for the periods that were requested. why haven't you done so in the investigation? >> i'm very happy to -- this is a, this is a pretty abstract issue. as you say, this is a, i think, were you going on. it's very important to have access to the maximum possible information. as it happens, i am very happy for my stuff to be handed over the in unredacted format for the head of the inquiry, had a

hot, to have a look and say this is relevant, this isn't relevant. and there is an objection from the uk government itself, which i no longer represent. and they are just anxious that in the future, ministers, correspondents should not be handed over wholesale to inquiries. as it happens in my own particular case, that's fine. >> you have a new son, his son -- 's name frank alfred odysseus johnson. i have to be a great fan of greek mythology. but tell me what's behind the name. >> well, funny you ask, we just like the names. and a deceased, a deceased was the great, he was the -- he was a man of many wild but, and he came, he went to all sorts of expenses came through them. he was a pretty -- he heard the siren voices,

remember, laura. he lashed himself to the mast in order not to be tempted by the sirens, calypso there on the island, what else does he get up to, all sorts of -- he goes to the clashing loss, he has -- he goes into the underworld. >> mm-hmm. >> he goes into the underworld! he takes, i think -- i can't remember what he does in the underworld. them from being able to reclaim people who want to leave and beyond. in other words, he's got quite a journey, is that what you're hoping for your son? because as a mother, i'm wondering, all the things you just named, i'm about to have a heart attack, mr. prime minister, on the journey that might be ahead. >> well, i -- yes, i'm sure you'll have a -- i'm sure his odyssey will be much calmer, more enjoyable then ancient odysseus, provided the ukrainians when the and we stick up for peace and democracy. that's the -- it's a -- what's happening now is a

pivotal war in the early 21st century. this really matters. america has been brave. i want to tell all of your viewers, america has been wonderful. america has made possible an eventual ukrainian victory. all we need now is america to stick with them. >> thank you for coming full circle in the conversation, and joining us today, mister prime minister. i appreciate your time. >> privilege, thank you. >> so, now, will we finally learn who brought cocaine into the white house? there are some new developments, ahead. plus, could you be prosecuted if you should have an abortion? well, abe cornish joins me on the legal landscape in the snout post roe america.

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well, it's here tonight. iowa become the latest state to make it harder to get an abortion, advancing a band now after six weeks. now, the bill does include exceptions for myths -- when the life of the woman is in danger. there are also-limited exceptions for rape and incest. let's take a look now illegal look at this. cb -- cnn's abbie cornish recently sat down with attorneys who have been criminally prosecuted under various state laws. >> what we were most afraid of happening has come to pass, and probably even worse, because we've got patients who are traveling hundreds of miles to get care. they're deciding whether to pay their light bill, or, you know, use that money for their abortion in their travel, right, and we're seeing doctors who are so afraid of being

prosecuted, even in cases where the abortion would clearly fall under an exception, the fetus had absolutely no chance of surviving, the patient was literally really -- bleeding out, near sepsis, and we're seeing those doctors so afraid because the criminal penalties associated with that abortion ban that those patients are, again, traveling hundreds of miles, leaving the state. >> abbie cornish joins me now. abbie, just thinking about how every day it seems, every month, we are seeing another legislative initiative at times and also the question of how to these attorneys now navigate this new landscape? your podcast goes into great detail these conversations. so, what are they doing? >> what they are finding is there's sort of to tears they're dealing with. if you are a doctor or care provider who does perform abortions, obviously, in states where it's now criminalized, you might need support or

defending. also what we heard in that clip, the idea of traveling from state to state, there is a whole network of people now who are helping people get hotel rooms, giving the money to travel. those people, under certain state laws, could be charged with abetting. the other thing we've learned is that it has opened wider the prosecutorial discretion to charge people with kind of criminal charges, such as child neglect, right, it has opened the door for fetal personhood laws to be used in criminal cases, which means you can be in the hospital, you have a stillbirth or a miscarriage, maybe child services or maybe the hospital itself will test you for drugs. and if it's found that you had some sort of substance in your system, there is a world where you can be charged with child neglect. this happened a lot during the war on drugs in the late 80s, mid 90s. and people are looking now at the potential resurgence of this. and that's what some of the attorneys we spoke to talk

about. >> interestingly enough, at the supreme court level in all the cases leading up to the dobbs decision, some of the chilling effect that you're speaking about now, where the concerns were evident and they were there and they were discussed about the notion of a medical provider having to think about the cost-benefit analysis of the legalities and the implications, opposed to the provision of care, and that was part of the argument. so, on the illegal horizon, and on the horizon more broadly, you know, these legislative initiatives, obviously, in iowa and beyond, but what is sort of the next frontier now of this discussion, when the states are in control, when we are in this post dobbs world, in might be an invisible ink on every ballot, the issue of abortion, but what is this next political frontier in addressing it? >> right, so, first of all, you're going to see push for fetal personhood laws or pushes for legislation that would say you can't cross state lines, et cetera. so, just because a state has a ban doesn't mean that the end

of the story. there may be a further legislative push to say, look, people can cross state lines to get an abortion elsewhere. there's also an ongoing battle with the fda over abortion pills -- >> mifepristone. >> exactly. so, medicated abortions are going to be a huge battle, because that is actually, i think at this point, the majority way that women do administer abortions for themselves. so, that conversation is happening at the national level, right, with the government and the administration. but i bet you're also going to see more of that being discussed and legislated, legislated in the states. >> and a part of the political litmus test at the state and local level as well. adi cornish, thank you, fascinating as well. >> thank you so much for having me. >> well you can catch adi's podcast it's called the assignment, wherever you get your podcasts. trust me, you don't want to miss out. up next, a another incident on a singers stage. sees what happened now during the summer of 69. ♪ ♪ ♪

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