this is "gps" the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the

world, i'm fareed zakaria. today on the program, ukraine's counteroffensive. it's being hard fought from the ground and also from the air with thousands upon thousands of drones. i'll talk to eric schmidt, the former ceo of google about the technologies ukraine will need to win this war. then what is happening in china where there are new signs the economy is stumbling. how will that impact the rest of the world. i ask "the wall street journal's" lingling wei. plus, a european government collapses over immigration. the continent's second longest serving leader steps down after a hard line stance. why does this issue continue to disrupt politics across the globe? i'll ask an expert. finally, i'll bring you a

perso special preview of my latest documentary. >> we have a planet under war. >> it is called "immigration breakdown" and will teaair toni 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific. first here's my take, last week, president biden revealing something striking about his reason to run again in 2024. during the interview for the show, i put it to him that even some of his most ardent supporters, those who think he's turned the economy around and restored relations with the rest of the world, believe he should step aside and let another generation of democrats take the baton, why are they wrong, i asked? biden responded by speaking solely about foreign policy. he argued that the world is facing dramatic change. and that the u.s. has the unique opportunity to bring together the world's democracies. he insisted that he is succeeding at doing that.

and that he wants to finish the job. having spoken to biden before, i would say that central to his world view is the belief that the world today is being shaped by a series of challenges from autocratic states. russia, china, iran, north korea. and that the future will hinge on how the democracies respond to these challenges. now, like anyone who wants to be president, biden has a healthy ego. and he's wanted the job since he was a young man. but i think it's fair to say that he is also driven by the sense of the future of the international order is on the line. the stakes are, in fact, high. and they are made much higher by the fact that for the first time since the world war ii era, the basic issue of america's engagement with the world is becoming a partisan issue. the u.s. stepped on to the world stage in 1917. to prevent a great power from

dominating europe. in 1945, after world war ii, it stayed engaged to ensure peace and stability in eurasia. but today, as russia wages a brutal war in europe that seems a throwback to world war ii, there is deep division in america about staunchly opposing that aggression. consider the numbers. according to a recent gallup poll, 79% of democrats want to help ukraine regain lost territories, even if that means prolonging the conflict. by contrast, 49% of republicans would like to end the conflict quickly, even if that means letting the russians hold on to the territories they have acquired by force. on nato, democrats approve of it by a wide margin. 76% to 22%. while republicans are split with 49% approving and the same

number disapprove ing, accordin to a pew survey conducted in march. on a broader issue, 60% of democrats believe it's best for our country to be active in world affairs while only 39% felt we should pay less attention to problem overseas and concentrate on problems here at home. for republicrepublicans, those are versus really reversed 71% wanting to focus on home and 29% believing in an active world view for america. there are debates. some senior officials like mike pence are vigorously making a case. as be seen by the tilting stance of weathervane speaker of the house kevin mccarthy. from ron desantis and the most

popular ideaologists tucker carlson, conservatives are increasingly contemptuous of america's support for ukraine. senator josh hawley said to the "the new york times" while some republicans remain staunchly interventionist, that's not where the voters are. as max booter pointed out some conservatives claim to be in favor of supporting ukraine but in favor of supporting china. that's because china is run by the communist party. but this also has to do with the fact that many conservatives are not interested in engaged foreign policy, they're focused on tariffs and walls, raising 160 folkic situations for chinese students and chinese americans. this is a reprisal of the jaxsonian policy of fortress for america. the republican party might be returning to its roots.

after all, it bitterly opposed america's entry into world war ii, after pearl harbor. even after the war, many republicans opposed nato and america's engagement with the world even though there's strong anti-communists and then claiming to want to focus on china. dwight eisenhower offered not to run against robert taft, the leading republican of his day, if taft would just endorse nato. taft refused. so eisenhower ran to preserve america's engagement with the world. and the international peace and stability that had brought. alas, there is no eisenhower to redirect the republican party today. and the stakes are as high as they were in 1952, if not higher. as we look around the world and the dangers to the international order, the single biggest risk may not may lie not in the killing fields of ukraine or

across the taiwan straits, but rather on the campaign trail here in the united states. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. ♪ ukraine's counteroffensive is into its second month. and progress has been slow. the challenges are vast. russia's war in ukraine is the world's largest armed conflict since world war ii. this war is being fought on the ground with traditional weaponry like tanks and bullets. but also in the skies, with newer technologies like drones. a report in may found ukraine was losing more than 10,000 drones per month. while my next guest says swarms of drones are the future of war. eric schmidt ran google for many

years but more recently advised the pentagon as the chair of the intervention board. a think tank focused on national security. i should note i am a senior adviser at schmidt futures, his philanthropic initiative. eric schmidt, good to have you. >> glad to be back. >> so were you recently in ukraine and a lot of your concerns stem from that. let's first get a sense of the lay of the land. to you, what does the battlefield look like? who has the advantage? sfwlt thing that's shocking is how big this war is. 1,000 kilometers long. since 2014, the russian side has dug themselves in, in this horrific way. so if you were a ukrainian soldier with your commander saying go across this five-kilometer disputed area, you'd have to get through the tanks, the mines, the machine guns, their drones.

you get to the other side, you do your killing and then the back part of russia kills you. it's an insurmountable task. >> i was stunned to read how many shells the russians are using. >> 60,000 a day. the world production can accommodate 5,000 a day. i guess the russian have been building artillery for 50 years. they have an infinite 60,000 a day. >> in my math, eddie, you're talking about 60,000 a year? >> it's amazing. this is a world war i artillery war with people dug in. how incredible we haven't come to another way. if you're the ukrainians wanting to break through, you have to get to the sea of azoz and have to get to the record. as you go through the corridor, they're bombing you as well. >> now, the bombing is position

bombing. they can taurgt more accurately. >> american doctrine is you would do such moves with air power which the ukrainians don't have. the air power comes in, cleans the path and then the american side, the other running back and we start to win. we, meaning the ukrainians, we need a solution to get them moving. >> so that gets us to drones. they're already using an extraordinary number of drones, the ukrainians. how many droughns are they using a week, or a month? >> they're on track to using a couple hundred thousand drones in a year. most drones only survive one or two flights before they fail or they're blocked. i was shocked at how good the russians were at electronic warfare in jamming. basically, everything you send into this battlefield which is quite narrow, by the way, the rest of the country is fine. i suspect on both sides. they jam everything. gps is jammed, but also communications is jammed. so normal drones don't work. so the ukrainians have taken

cheap droughns and added additional antennas. one of the things i learned, something calls a kamikaze drone which is a $400 chinese drone that carries a small payload that moves so fast you can't shoot it down. i had thought that was the innovation of the war, two generals told me that is wrong. you need one that carries more payloads. i don't think the ukrainian drone strategy is completely formed. but they're building a completely new theory of war. >> and this is where we get to the solution. for, the only way the ukrainians can break through these lines is with massive number of drones. >> massive number of drones. or massive number of human casualties on both sides. the beauty of the drone is it can take out the other side's military target without collateral damage, right? we are very concerned about the propagation of this war against other countries.

but i'm very concerned on it, the impact on civilian, both russians and ukrainians. the importance of the drone, it's very, very target and very inexpensive. i think the goal that we should have for ukraine is establish the principle that there will never be another land war that you can invade successfully. that we're expecting the sovereignty of the land is important. if you're mad at them, that's fine. you can negotiate, you can put pressure. but you can't send artillery and flatten cities which is what the russians are doing. >> how do you get to the solution -- i mean, is there -- can ukrainians produce hundreds of thousands of drones? >> they have the money, and they have the talent. they haven't figured out how to build all of the factories yet. and they have to be built in ukraine for many, many reasons. so what i know, there are about 60le companies building these types of drones. what's interesting, it's just like startups in the sense they're not coordinated.

they're moving quickly. their operating systems aren't very integrated. they can't speak to each other. if it was peace time, you have an overall strategy, you get them organized and so forth. what's interesting to me, this is a broadband war and technology war in the sense it's innovative. and innovation occurs in the small companies not in the m.o.d. the ukrainians are interesting you know as well that the ukrainians set up their operation outside of the military. and the drone guys is busy supplying them to the military. but he controls the money. he controls the strategy. they told us the biggest problem they currently have, at the moment, they're taking tiny essentially pipe bombs and dropping them on to tanks what they want is laser-guided mines which america has had a long time that can follow. this is stuff that america had 20 years ago but they're catching up on. >> does all of this lead you to

be positive, optimistic? >> i hate to say this, but i think it's going to go on a long time. i don't think russia will gain much land if any, i think the and whatting is so slow to get across this killing field, this danger zone, there it could take years. wagner could end up running. but at the moment it's much more balanced than the marketing says. they talk about the corres counteroffensive which is a great idea. they're not ready for american-style, 100 million people, they don't have the assets. put if you put it in the air, they can be shot down. it's a hard problem. one of my friends looking at this strategically has said you realize the russians have been fighting this way for a hundred years. okay. that means you give them a hard

problem to solve. the simple problem, do this, do that. the other side is too sophisticated. and the russians are clearly in this to win. >> sobering, but very smart, eric schmidt. >> thank you. next on "gps" warning signs are flashing for the chinese economy. what does it mean for the rest of the world, when we come back. (fisher investments) in this markrket, you'll find fisher investments is different thahan other money managers. (other money manager) different how? aren't we all just t looking fr the hottest stocks? (fisher investments) nope. we use diversified strategies t to position our clients' portfolios for their long-term goals. (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissionsor you, right? (fisher investments) no, we don't se commission products. we're a fiduciary, obligad to act in our client's best interest. (fisher investments) no, we don't se commission (other money manager)iduciary, so when do you make more money, obonly when your clients makes bemore money?. (fisher vestments) yep. we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different.

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china released figures this week showing inflation in june was at zero percent. now, that may sound eviable to countries struggling with high inflation as the economies run too hot. but a little sign of inflation is a sign of a health growing economy. china's lack of any inflation and the risk of tipping into

deflation indicates a very sluggish economy. this comes as u.s./china tensions remain high. janet yellen transcript to beijing seems to have a positive eck. that touk about it i'm joins by lingling wei, chief correspondent for the were william and co-author of "superpower showdown." lingling, give us a sense of what you're learning about the chinese economy in the last few weeks. because it seems to be on the downside. >> that's a great question, fareed. thank you for having me. yes, china's economy really is struggling big time. the kind of weakness is really across the board. you just mentioned about the kind of deflationary pressure in china. it really is the result of very weak investment, very weak private investment, and also

exports are struggling as well. you know, another issue that is bothering, you know, china policymakers and a lot of investors in china, is the fact that china's relationship with the united states and with the rest overall, has also worsened a lot. that also has dealt big blow to, you know, the confidence, public confidence in china's economy. >> you wrote about how private companies are now leaving china. you've talked about private consumers not spending as much. that piece of it, particularly, you know, every other country had a post-covid bounce of what people called revenge spending. china did not. why do you think that is? >> sure. when the chinese government very suddenly and abruptly lifted

covid restrictions late last year, that indeed was the hope among a lot of businesses that china's economy would bounce back very quickly. but the fact is a lost chinese families and chinese consumers they have become very much financially strained. because over the past three years sunday very stringent covid restrictions, a lot of them have lost jobs. and some of them have suffered pay cuts. you know, private companies are not doing well. they're not hiring as much. foreign businesses, you know, some of them have reduced investment in china. so a lot of people in china have seen their income levels, you know, decline. but at the same time, they have taken the kind of debt to buy houses, buy cars. so their balance sheet, you know, it's just not that great. so, they have, you know, really

refrained from spending on a lot of stuff. they used to -- you know, enjoy, like travel. like luxury -- buying luxury brands, especially for the middle class. >> when you look at this, one piece of data, it's not completely about economics. but i wonder if it has a kind of economic -- there's a backdrop to it which is the recent numbers show that people are getting married much less in china. young people are getting -- there's much lower rates of, you know, of partnerships and marriages. what do you think that's about? >> you know, in china, there's a term for that, it's called lying flat. people are not dating. they're not getting married. they're not having kids because that shows a sense of, you know, really frustration with the direction the country is going. there's the sense of a

hopelessness, you know, really probable stance of hopelessness of young people. latest data shows that the unemployment rate among the younger generation has reached a record of more than 20%. so, you know, when you are really struggling, finding jobs, and, you know, making ends meet, i think, you know, a lot of people might really hit the pause button in terms of planning for their future. >> for so many year, china was seen as one of the single, if not the largest contributor to global growth. with a china that's, you know, seems to be growing almost not at all, does this mean we're in -- you know, this is going to have an effect on global growth? we've already seen commodity prices are weaker. oil prices are weaker. we should expect this for a while, if this continues, right?

>> sure. that's a great point. you know, for years, china has been this ending of growth. just think back to the global financial crisis of 2008 and 2009, right, china really helped rescue the global economy with very robust growth, with this demand, insatiable demand for commodities and all of the products from all around the world. fast forward to today, china's growth is really stuttering. and there's a lot of fear among economists and analysts we talked to, china might be under pressure to further drive down its currency to help a domestic economy. you know, not as stable, chinese currency with -- you know, spell like -- been a really big risk for global financial markets.

and china slows, the rest of the world, you know, is not really having good time either. so the impact is goes to be very palpable and it's going to be hear to stay for probably the foreseeable future. >> lingling wei, always insightful to hear from you. thank you so much. >> thank you. next on "gps," mark rutter has been the dutch prime minister for 13 years. now, his government has suddenly collapsed over refugee policy. we'll tackle the ever explosive politics of immigration, whehene come back. eh, , not worried. takeke control of your financial future to empower whahat's next.

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longest serving prime minister announced that his government would resign. the surprising end of mark rutte's leadership of the netherlands came after his conservative government's strict

new immigration proposals were rejected by coalition partners. the thorny issue of immigration is hardly unique to the netherlands. in may, the u.n. refugee agency announced that the number of refugees worldwide increased from 27.1 million in 2021. to 35.3 million at the end of 2022. that was the biggest yearly increase ever recorded. in large part, did due to the war in ukraine. and in response, many countries have vowed to create tougher environments for asylum seekers. to help us with the issue around the world, christopher wcaldwel. what will you have is a large

influx of migrants coming in and they claim to be asylum seekers, and there's a feeling they're not really asylum seekers. >> well, yes, that feeling has increased from the migration from the syrian war in 2015. up in then, you know, i think that most immigration, you could say, was labor related. it was not asylum-related. but you got people coming from the syrian war. but then in their train came a whole bunch of people from all sorts of different countries, you noe, from afghanistan, from as far away as pakistan. and they were coming into this asylum seeking group. so, yes, there is impatience and skepticism about that. but there's -- there's also a kind of a backdrop of -- there's a demographic sort of like

weather system kind of on the horizon which is sort of you have a lot of demographic pressure building up in africa. which is destined to gain about a billion people in the next generation. and you have a shrinking population in europe. and that means that whatever we're seeing in the mediterranean now, is going to increase. you know, and on top of that, you have this -- one hopes temporary -- dislocation of a lot of ukrainians which is causing acute problems too. >> would it be fair to say, i mean there is a conventional wisdom i'd say that the europeans are not as good about asill a simulating it?

give us a breakdown. >> i think it varies from country to country. and i think that there are some countries that really do have sort of like promising similarities with the united states. france has a kind of a sort of -- sort of like creed of, you know, universalism, kind of like the united states does. britain has a very representative geographical system, so that whenever you get -- you get a concentration of immigrants in any one place, they're going to elect people -- put people in the parliament. you know, very quickly. so there are good things in all of these countries, but none of them quite have the whole american package. >> would it be fair to say that the immigration issue, migration, asylum, assimilation is at this point the hottest issue in europe? when you think of these trends

of populism, this is what is fuelling them? >> yeah. i think, you know, when you don't have a major economic crisis or a pandemic, i think that migration tends to be the biggest issue in these countries. >> and does it all leave you optimistic or pessimistic? >> you know, i've been writing about this for -- i don't know, a couple of decades now. about 20 years ago there were a number of different paths open to europe, i mean, europe could sort of like open up and change its societies. or it could close up the borders and sort of retain the societies that had existed historically. i think that moment has passed. and so now we're in a kind of -- we're in a kind of inevitable

transformation of these societies. and people are just going to address it as they can. so, i mean, good things can happen. and bad things can happen. but it's going to be within the context of the change. and the change is going to make europe a little less traditional, a little more american. a little more market oriented. a little more money oriented. a little less diverse culturally. i mean, the countries of the continent will resemble each other more. that will have its good and bad things about it. >> christopher caldwell, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. next on "gps" when he's not hosting "the lead" on this network, he's writing novels. i'm talk to jake tapper about his new book and much more, when we come e back.

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who you obviously know as host of "the lead" and "state of the union" on cnn. but he's also an accomplished novelist. and he's just published his third novel "all the demons are here." it takes place in the late 1970s in america. among the book, the daredevil stuntman evel knievel and a rupert murdoch-inspired publisher. welcome, jake tapper. >> thank you so much. that's definitely the first time you've ever said evel knievel on

air, i'm guessing. >> we'll get to that, but first i want to ask you, as a journalist, when you went back to the 1970s, because this is a period, you know, you grew up in. you're younger than me, you were very young. but what struck you about the '70s as different, you know from your kind of prejudgments about it? >> so, i was 8 in 1977 when the book takes place. i don't remember the '70s that fondly. i remember my childhood fondly, but the era itself for gas lines and disco and death of elvis. that was pretty much it. the rest is my world of childhood. going back and realizing what an insane and wild era was interesting and fascinating because i lived through it but didn't realize all of the things going on. all of the rash of ufo sightings

including by jimmy carter. the rise of cults. the new york city blackout. the son of sam murders. an entire city gripped by this serial killer. the rises of tabloid journalism, evel knievel, the death of elvis. it really was this insane time in this nation's history. it was fun to write about, fun to dive back into. in the may, 1977, almost becomes a character in the book. >> a book written called "the 70s" what we think about the '60s really happened in the '70s, the kind of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, the incredible culture, the new movies, that's all the '70s. so it was a rich period for you to set it in. did you feel like you were -- were you able to try to capture the essence of the '70s or just use it as a backdrop? >> no, i tried to capture the

essence. there are two main characters, ike, an awol marine working in butte, montana. and his sister lucy who is an aspiring journalist with a family starting a tabloid in washington, d.c. no, i thrust them into it. i have ike traveling with evel knievel to graceland after elvis dies, i have lucy going to 74, the celebrity discotheque, and experiencing that and looking at all of the odd characters there, including ron cohen, who was the mccarthy protege, i embraced it. i loved it. i didn't get to experience any of it, i was too young. i was in philly, so i wasn't in butte, or new york city. and it was actually a real joy. and you're exactly right, this was the era of sex, drugs and

rock 'n' roll in a way that the '60s we think of it as but not really. and the '70s was really when people were getting very fast and loose with their social lives. >> and evel knievel. i grew up in india in the '70s. even i heard of evel knievel. and you've got this phenomena. which is one of these celebrities who became a celebrity for a bizarre gallonation of circumstances which became huge but in the novel he uses that celebrity ala donald trump to run for president. >> yeah. >> did you see that as a kind of foreshadowing of trump? >> i mean, i do think that they're kind of the same type of quintessentially american character in the mode of b.t. barnum. just individuals who are able to grab the public's attention, grab the media's attention. get supporters, shoot from the hip and say things that no one

else could get away with, but he gets away with it for whatever reason. and he really was a precursor to donald trump in many ways. >> whole thing reads superbly, jake tapper, thanks so much. >> thank you, so much, fareed. next on "gps," i'll bring you a viepreview of my latest documentary. the pandemic, climate change, with its brutal storms. droughts, and disease. led to economic meltdown, political unrest. and a perfect storm of migration. you will not want to miss this. or more. that's why farmers new car replacement pays to replalace it with a new one of the samame make and model.

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and now, for the last look. earlier in the show, you heard about the collapse of the dutch government over immigration. here in the united states, of course, immigration is a political hot button as well. >> our country is full. we don't want people coming up here. our country is full. we want mexico to stop.

we want all of them to stop. our country is packed to the gills. >> a record 2.4 million migrants were apprehended at the border last fiscal year. that shattered the record set the previous year. and nearly equals the total population of the city of chicago. america's immigration system is broken. but the problem isn't what mr. trump and his allies might have you believe. in fact, it's quite the opposite. here's a clip from my newest documentation "immigration breakdown." it will premiere tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific on cnn. the real disaster isn't that too many immigrants have made it to the u.s. >> you are now u.s. citizens. congratulations. >> it's that we aren't letting in nearly enough.

>> fertility rate in the united states fell to yet an all-time low. >> more and more american women are deciding not to have kids all. >> america is in the middle of a baby bust. >> the birth rate has fallen dramatically. it's below the placement level. >> not enough americans are being born. to replace those who have died. >> historically, the safety value for the u.s. has been newborns. >> starting under president trump, immigration to the u.s. plummeted. cutting us off from the workers we desperately need. >> growing fears of a recession. >> and fanning the flames of economic decline. >> a massive labor shortage. >> highest inflation in 40 years. >> clock is ticking on social security. >> america has three options. >> you can either have more

babies. ♪ >> which many experts say just won't happen. >> or you can welcome more immigrants. >> i hereby declare an oath -- >> or you can dwindle and fade into stagnation and irrelevance. i would say the second option, welcoming more immigrants. >> instead, we've chosen the third. stag stagnation. refusing to let in more foreign workers according to one estimate could cost the u.s. economy $9 trillion by 2030. on the other hand -- >> if everybody in the world who wanted to move could move, by one estimate, the total income of humanity would double. >> you heard that right, global wealth would roughly double. as workers from less affluent countries move to join bustling

economies. tune in tonight to understand the problem and explore solutions. "immigration breakdown" premieres tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific on cnn. thank you for joining us on the prograram. i'll see you again tonight and ththen again next week. by wyndham to choooose from, your wyndham is waitining. get the lowest price at wyndhamhotels.c.com they'll be h here in 5, we ready? - there's uh... - oh. left. left. i don't have it. i don't have it. - keep going. - we should've used behr. yeah. today let's int. right now, get america's most trusted paint bnd behr. only at the home depot. ♪ if there's pain when you try to poo ♪ ♪ and going sometimes feels like you ♪ ♪ pushed through a pineapple or two ♪ ♪ colace is the brand you need ♪ ♪ to soften stools, we're all agreed ♪ ♪ #2 should be easy to do ♪ trust colace to soften stools with no stimulants

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