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this is "gps, the global public square." welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today on the program. ukraine's counteroffensive. it is being hard fought on the ground, but also from the air with thousands upon thousands of drones. i'll talk to eric schmidt, the former ceo of google about the technologies ukraine will need to win this war. then what is happening in china where there are new signs the economy is stumbling. how will that impact the rest of the world? i'll ask "the wall street's journal's" ling ling wei, plus a european government collapses over immigration. the second longest serving leader stps down after taking a hard line stance on refugees. why does this issue continue to

disrupt politics across the globe? i'll ask an expert. finally, i'll bring you a special preview of my newest documentary on immigration. >> we have a planet of people on the move. >> it is called immigration breakdown and will air tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific here on cnn. but first, here's my take. last week president biden revealed something striking about his reason for wanting to run again in 2024. during his interview for this show, i put it to him that even some of his most ardent supporters, those who think that he's turned the economy around and restored relations with the rest of the world believe that he should step aside and let another generation of democrats take the baton. why are they wrong, i asked? biden responded by speaking solely about foreign policy. he argued that the world is facing dramatic change and that

the u.s. has a unique opportunity to bring together the world's democracies. he insisted that he is succeeding at doing that and that he wants to finish the job. having spoken to biden before, i would say that central to his world view is the belief that the world today is being shaped by a series of challenges from autocratic states, russia, china, iran, north korea and that the future will hinge on how the democracies respond to these challenges. unlike anyone who wants to be president biden has a healthy, go and he's wanted the job since he was a young man, but i think it is fair to say that he is driven by a sense that the future of the international order is on the line. the stakes are, in fact, high, and they are made much higher by the fact that for the first time since the world war ii era, the basic issue of america's engagement with the world is

becoming a partisan issue. the u.s. stepped on to the world stage in 1917 to prevent a great power from dominating europe. in 1945, after world war ii, it stayed engaged to ensure peace and stability in yoeurasia, but today as russia wields a war, there is a division in america about staunchly opposing that. consider the numbers, according to a recent gallup poll, 70% of americans want ukraine to regain territory even if it means prolonging the conflict. by contrast, 49% of republicans would like to end the conflict quickly even if that means letting the russians hold on to the territories that they have acquired by force. on nato, democrats approve will it by a wide margin, 76% to 22%

while republicans are split with 49% approving and the same number disapproving according to a pew survey conducted in march. 60% of the democrats in the same poll believe it's best for the future of our country to be active in world affairs while only 39% felt we should pay attention to problems overseas and concentrate on problems here at home. for republicans, those numbers are essentially reversed with 70% wanting to focus at home and just 29% believing in an active world war for america. this is not a settled issue. there is a debate within the republican party. some senior figures like mitch mcconnell and mike pence are making the case for an active and engaged america, but the party's base seems to be with the isolationists as can be seen by the tilting stances of the

weather vane speaker of the house, from donald trump and his copycat ron desantais and tucker carlson, conservatives are increasingly contemptuous of america's support for ukraine and its strong a lilliance. while some republicans remain staunchly interventionist, that's not where the voeters ar. some conservatives claim to be against supporting ukraine, but in favor of confronting china. that, as he notes because china is run by the communist party, but this also has to do with the fact that many conservatives are want engaged in a foreign policy and they're building tariffs and walls and raising xenophobic suspicions about chinese students and chinese americans and giving the pentagon even bigger budgets. this is a replease of the old

jacksonian foreign policy of a fortress america. the republican party might be returning to its roots. after all, it bitterly opposed america's entry into world war ii until pearl harbor. even after the war, many republicans oppose nato and american engagement with the war even though there were strong anti-communists and they claim to want to focus on china. dwight eisenhower offered not to run against robert taft, the leading republican of his day, if taft would just endorse nato. taft refused. so eisenhower had the peace and stability that it brought. alas, there is no ieeisen how te redirect the republican party today and the stakes are as high as they were in 1952, if not higher. as we look around the world and

the danger to the international order, the single biggest risk is across ukraine and the taiwan straits and rather in the campaign trail, go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my washington post column this week and let's get started. ♪ ♪ ukraine's counteroffensive is into its second month and progress has been slow. the challenges are vast. russia's war in ukraine is the world's largest armed conflict since world war ii. this war is being fought on the ground with traditional weaponry like tanks and bullets, but also in the skies with newer technologies like drones. a report in may found ukraine was losing more than 10,000 drones per month.

while my next guest says swarms of drone are the future of war. eric schmidt ran google for many years and more recently advise tadviseed the pentagon, and he now chairs the special competitive studies project, a think tank focused on technology and national security. i should note i am a senior adviser of schmit futures and his philanthropic initiative. >> eric schmidt, pleasure to have you. >> good to be back. >> so you were recently in ukraine, and a lot of your concerns stem from that. let's first just get a sense of the lay of the land. to you, what does the battlefield look like, who has the advantage? >> the thing that's shocking is how big this war is, it's a thousand kilometers long and since 2014 the russian side has dug themselves in in this horrific way. so if you were a ukrainian soldier with your commander saying go across this

five-kilometer disputed area, you'd have to get through the tanks, the lines, the machine guns and their drones and you get to the other side and you do your killing and then the back part of russia kills you. it's an insurmountable task. >> i was stunned to read how many shells the russians are using. >> 60,000 a day. the world production in the west can accommodate about 5,000 a day. i guess the russians have been building artillery for about 50 years and they have an infinite supply. >> 60,000 a day. you're talking something like 20 million a year. crazy. >> today this is a world war i artillery war with people dug in. how incredible a hundred years later that we haven't come up with another way. if you're the ukrainians trying to break through and you want to get through the sea of azov, you want to break through

zaporizhzhia, for example, and make a corridor. they're bombing you, as well. >> now the bombing is precision bombing because you can target more accurately. >> the american doctrine is that you would only do such infantry moves with air power which the ukrainians don't have and the air power comes in, cleans the path and the american gets the other side running back and then they start to win. we, meaning the ukrainian, the u.s. and the west need a solution to get them moving. >> so that gets us to drones. they are already using an extraordinary amount of drones, with the ukrainians and how many drones are they using a week or a month? >> they're on track to using a couple hundred thousand drones in a year. most drones only survive one or two flights before they fail or they're blocked. i was shocked at how good the russians were at electronic warfare and jamming. basically, everything you send into the battlefield which is quite narrow, the rest of the

country is fine, i suspect, on both sides. they jam everything. gps is jammed and also communications is jammed so normal drones don't work. so the ukrainians have taken cheap drones and add additional antennas. one of the things that i learned was something called a kamikaze drone which is a $400 chinese drone that carries a small payload that moves so fast you can't shoot it down. i had thought that this was the innovation of the war. two generals yesterday told me that i'm wrong and that what they really need are cruise missile drones which can go really far and carry with weight and carry more payloads. i don't think the ukrainian drone strategy is formed, but they're building a completely new theory of . >> and this is where you get to the solution and for you the only way ukrainians can break through these lines is through the massive number of drones. massive number of human casualties on both sides and the beauty of the drone is that it can take out the other side's

military target without collateral damage, right? we are very concerned about the propagation of this war against other country, but i'm very concerned about its effect on civilians and both the russian and ukrainians. the important thing about a drone is it's a very, very targeted solution and it's very inexpensive. i think the goal that we should have for ukraine is to establish the principle that there will never be another land war where you can invade successfully, that we're expecting the sovereignty of the land is important. if you're mad at them that's fine, you can in gosch yat and put pressure, but you can't art ilrate and flatten cities which is what the russians have been doing. >> how do you get to the solution. >> i mean, can ukrainians produce hundred of thousands of drones. >> they haven't the money and the talent and they haven't figured out how to build it yet.

there are about 60 companies that are building these types of droeps and what's interesting is they're like start-ups and they're moving so quickly and remember, this is all a year old and their operating systems aren't integrated and they can't speak to each other and the problems that you would imagine and if it was peacetime you would have an overall strategy and get them organized and so forth. what's interesting to me is this is a broadband war and it is a technology war in the sense that it's innovative and innovation occurs in small companies and not in the m.o.d. ukrainians are interesting. ukrainians set up their drone operation outside the military and the drone guy's name fedorov is busy supplying them to the military, but he controls the money and he controls the strategy. they told us that the biggest problem they currently have is at the moment they're taking these pipe bombs and dropping them on to tanks and what they want is laser-guided ones or guided ones which is what america has had for a long time that can follow the target and

this is something that america did 20 years ago that they're just catching up on. does all of this leave you, net-net positive, optimistic? >> i'd hate to say it, but i think this is going to go on for a long time. there's not enough advantage on either side. i don't think russia will gain much land, if any, and i think the going is so slow to get across this danger zone, this killing field that it will take a year or two. now, of course, there could be breakthroughs and wagner can start running and things like that that we don't understand, but at the moment it's much more balanced than the marketing says. they talk about this counteroffensive which is certainly a great idea. they're not ready to do an american style 100 million people state full power. they don't have the assets and furthermore if you put airplanes in the air they get shot down by surface-to-air missiles and it's a problem. one of my friends who were looking at this strategicallies,

you realize the russians have been fighting this way for a hundred years. that means you have to give them a hard problem to solve. the simple problems like do this, and do that, the other side is too sfaft kated and the russians are clearly in this to win. >> sobering, but very smart. thank you, eric schmidt. >> thank you. >> next on gps, warning signs are flashing for the chinese economy. what does it mean for the rest of the world? when we come back. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate. [narrator] why is aaron happy? well, just days ago, his old wheels gave out.

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china released figures this week showing inflation in june was at 0%. that may sound enviable to countries struggling with high inflation as their economies run too hot, but a little bit of inflation is a sign of a healthy, growing economy. china's lack of any inflation and the rick of tipping into deflation indicates a very sluggish economy. this comes as u.s.-china

tensions remain high. the treasury secretary janet yellen's recent trip to bridging seems to have had a positive effect. to talk about it all i am joined by ling ling wei chief correspondent for "the wall street journal" and the super power showdown. ling ling, give me a sense of what you are learning about the chinese economy over the last few weeks because it all seems to be on the down side. >> that's a great question, fareed. thank you for having me here. yes, china's economy really is struggling big time. the kind of a weakness is really across the board. you just mentioned about the kind of deflationary pressure in china, the result of very weak domestic demand and very weak private investment and also exports are struggling, as well. you know, another issue that is

bottler bothering investors and others in china is the fact that china's relationship with the united states and with the west overall has also worsened a lot, that also has dealt a big blow to the kind of confidence, public confidence in china's economy. >> you wrote about how private companies are now leaving china. you've talked about private consumers, and not spending as much. that piece of it particularly, the -- the every other country had a post-covid bounce of what people call restrefrj spending. china did not. why do you think that is? >> sure. when the chinese government very suddenly and abruptly lifted covid restrictions late last year that indeed was the hope

among a lot of the masters in businesses that china's economy would bounce back very strongly, very quickly, but the fact of the matter was a lot of chinese families and chinese consumers, they have become very much financially strained because over the past three years, under very stringent, covid restrictions, a lot of them have lost jobs and some of them have sif s suffered pay cuts. private companies are not doing well and they're not hiring as much. foreign businesses have also some of them have also reduced investment in china. so there are a lot of people in china have seen their income levels decline, but at the same time they have taken the kind of debt to buy houses, by cars. so their balance sheet is just not that great. so they have, you know, really refrained from spending on a lot

of stuff. they used to enjoy like travel, luxury, buying luxury brands es especially for the middle class. >> when you look at a piece of data you look at economics, and i wonder if there's a backdrop to it, which is the recent numbers show that people are getting married much less in china. young people are getting the much lower rates of partnerships and marriages. what do you think that's about? >> in china there's a term for that. it's called lying flat. they're not dating. they're not getting married and they're not having kids because that shows a sense of, you know, really frustration with the direction the country is going. there's this sense of hopelessness, a palpable sense of hopelessness among a lot of

our young people. the latest data show that the unemployment rate among the younger generation has reached a record of more than 20%. so, you know, when you are really struggling finding jobs and you know, making ends meet, i think a lot of people might really hit the pause button in terms of planning for their future. ? for so many years, china was seen as one of the single, if not one of the largest contributor to global growth, with a china that seems to be growing almost not at all, does this mean we're in -- this is going to have an effect on global growths or are we seeing commodity prices are weaker and oil prices are weaker? we should expect this for a while if this continues, right? >> oh, sure. that's a great point. for years, china has been this

engine of growth. just think back to the global financial crisis of 2008 and 2009, right? china really helped to rescue the global economy with very robust growth and the demand and the insatiable demand for commodities and other products from all over the world. fast forward to today, china's growth is really sputtering and you know, there is a fear among a lot of economists and analysts we talked to, china might, under pressure to further drive down its currency, right? to help the domestic economy and not a stable chinese currency would be a really big risk for the global financial markets and china slows the rest of the world. it's not really having a good

time either. it's though the impact is going to be very palpable and it's going to be here to stay for probably the foreseeable future. >> lingling wei, always insightful to hear from you. thank you so much. >> thank you. next on "gps," mark rooter has been the dutch prime minister for 13 years and now his government has suddenly collapsed and the refugee policy and we will tackle the ever-explosive politics of immigration when we come back. you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. we always had questions. who do we belong to? who are our ancestors? i know we have them. oh my god, here it is.

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>> last week europe's second longest-serving prime minister announced that his government would resign. the surprising end of mark rooter's leadership of the netherlands came after his conservative government's strict new immigration proposals were rejected by coalition partners. the thorny issue of immigration is hardly unique to the

netherlands. in may, the u.n. refugee agency announced the number of refugees worldwide increased from between.1 million in 2021 to 25.3 million in the end of 2022. that was the biggest yearly increase ever recorded. in large part due to the war in ukraine. in response, many countries have vowed to create tougher environments for asylum seekers. to help us better understand how the politics of immigration is playing out around the world we are joined by the journalist christopher caldwell who has long written on these issues. welcome. when you look around europe and this is separate from the ukraine issue. what you have is this very large influx of migrants who are coming in and as in america, they claim to be asylum seekers and that is, at the heart of the controversy, is it not, that there is this feeling that these are not real asylum seekers.

>> well, yes, and that has -- that feeling has kind of increased since the migration from the syrian war in 2015. up until then, i think that most immigration, you could say was labor related. it was not asylum related, but you have people coming from the syrian war, but in their train came a whole burnch of people from all sorts of different countries from afghanistan, from as far away as pakistan and they were coming into this asylum-seeking group. so, yes, there is impatience and skepticism about that, but there's also a kind of a backdrop of -- there's a demographic sort of like weather system kind of on the horizon which is if you have a lot of demographic pressure building up

in africa which is destined to gain about a billion people in the next generation, and you have a shrinking population in europe, and that means that whatever we're seeing in the mediterranean now is going to increase, and on top of that you have this, one hopes, temporary dislocation of a lot of ukrainians which is creating certain acute problems, too. >> and would it be fair to say, there is this conventional wisdom, i would say that the europeans are not as good at assimilating immigrants as americans and the most recent eruption in france certainly does seem to bear that narrative out. is that problem of assimilation as acute as ever? has it increased? give us a window into that. >> i think it varies from country to country, and i think

there are some countries that really do have promising similarities with the united states. france has a kind of a crude of universalism kind of like the united states does. britain has a representative, geographical system so that whenever you get a concentration of immigrants in any one place they're going to elect people -- put people in the parliament very quickly. so there are good things in all of these countries, but none of them quite have the whole american package. >> would it be fair to say that the immigration issue, mieg ra migration, asylum, assimilation is the hardest issue in europe? when you think of these trends of populism, this is what is fueling them? >> yeah. you know, when you don't have a

major economic crisis or a pandemic, i think that migration tends to be the -- the biggest issue in these countries. >> and does it -- does it all leave you optimistic or pessimistic? >> you know, i've been writing about this for -- i don't know, a couple of decades now, about 20 years ago there are a number of different paths open to europe. europe could sort of, like, open up and change its societies or it could close up the borders and sort of retain the societies that had existed historically. i think that moment has passed, and so now we're in a kind of -- we're in a kind of inevitable transformation of these societies and people are just going to adjust as they can.

so, i mean, good things can happen and bad things can happen and it's going to be within the context of a change, and the change is going to make europe a little less traditional and a little more american, a little more market oriented, a little more money-oriented, a little less diverse culturally. the countries of the continent will resemble each other more. that will have its good and bad things about it. >> christopher caldwell, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> next on "gps," when he's not hosting the lead on this network he's writing novels. i'll talk to jake tapper about his new book and much more when we come back. to protect your ears from dizziness, ear ringing, and even hearing loss. never miss a moment with lipo flavonoid.

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my next guest is jake tapper whom you obviously know as host of "the lead" and the state of the union on cnn, but he is also an accomplished novelist and has just published his third novel. "all of the demons are here" it takes place in the late 1970s in america. among the central characters are the daredevil stuntman evil knievel in a rupert murdoch-inspired tabloid publisher and welcome, jake tapper. >> thank you so much. that is definitely the first time you have ever said evil knievel on air, i'm guessing. >> we will get to him, but first i want to ask you, as a journalist, when you went back to the 1970s, because this is a

period you kind of -- you grew up in. you're younger than me, you were very young, but what struck you about the '70s as different from, you know, from your kind of pre-judgments about it. >> so i was 8 in 1977 when the book takes place and i don't remember the '7 0s all that fond low and the era itself i remember for gas lines and disco, and the death of elvis. that was pretty much it, everything else was just my little world of childhood, going back and realizing what an insane and wild era it was was actually really interesting, fascinating, even because i lived through it, but didn't realize all of the things that were going on. all of the rash of ufo sightings including by jimmy carter, the rise of cults. the new york city blackout. the son of sam murders, an

entire city gripped by the serial killer. the rise of tabloid journalism, evil knievel, the death of elvis. it really was this insane time in this nation's history and it was fun to write about, fun to dive back into and in a way 1977 almost becomes like a character in the book. >> you know, david fromme, the journalist wrote a book about the '70s that as we think about happened in the '60s, the kind of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. the incredible fluorescence of culture and the new movies and that's all really the '70s. it was a rich period for you to set it in. did you feel like you were -- were you trying to capture the essence of the '70s or just use it as a backdrop? >> no, i tried to capture the essence. there are two main characters, ike, who is an awol marine working for evil knievel in butte, montana and his sister

lucy, an aspiring journalist who hooks up with this murdoch-esque family who starts a tabloid in washington, d.c. no, i thrust them into it. i have ike traveling with evel knievel to graceland before elvis dies and i have lucy going to studio 54 which opened in 1977, the celebrity discotheque and experiencing that and looking at all of the odd characters that are there including roy cohn who really was the mccarthy protege, joe mccarthy protege who was at studio 54 quite often. i embraced it and i loved it. i did not get to experience any of it. i was too young, and i was in philly. so i wasn't in butte or new york city, and it was actually a real joy, and you're exactly right. this was the era of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll in a way that the '60s we think of as, but not really. in the '70s when people were

getting very fast and loose with their social lives. >> and evil knievel, i grew up in india in the '70s and even i heard of evil knievel and you get this phenomena which you use the celebrities who became a celebrity for a bizarre set of circumstances and became huge and in the novel he then uses that celebrity a la donald trump to run for president. >> yeah. >> did you see that as a kind of fore shadowing of trump? >> i do think that they are kind of the same type of quintessentially american character in the mode of p.t. barnum, just individuals who are able to grab the public's attention, grab the media's attention and get supporters, shoot from the hip and say things that no one else could get away with, but he gets away with it for whatever reason, and he really was a precursor to donald trump in many ways. >> well, the whole thing reads

superbly. jake tapper, thanks so much. >> thanks so much, fareed. next on "gps," i'll bring you a preview of my latest documentary. immigration breakdown. >> it's a unique moment in the history of the hemisphere. ♪ ♪ >> the pandemic and climate change with its brutal storms, droughts and disease led to economic meltdowns, political unrest and a perfect storm of migration. you will not want to miss this. a never-hide-my-smile day... a life-of-the-party day... a take-on-the-world day... a believe-in-myself day...

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i'm priscilla alvarez at the white house. and now for the last look. earlier in the show, you heard about the collapse of the dutch government over immigration. here, in the united states, immigration is a political hot button as well. >> our country is full. we don't want people coming up here. our country is full. we want mexico to stop. we want all of them to stop. our country is packed to the

gills. >> a record 2.4 million migrants were apprehended at the border last fiscal year. that shattered the record set the previous year and nearly equaled the total population of the city of chicago. america's immigration system is broken. but, the problem isn't what mr. trump and allies might have you believe. in fact, it's quite the opposite. here is a clip from my newest documentary, immigration breakdown. it will premiere tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific on cnn. the real disaster isn't that too many immigrants have made it to the u.s. >> you are now u.s. citizens. >> it's that they aren't letting in nearly enough. >> the fertility rate in the united states fell to an all- time low. >> more and more american women

are deciding not to have kids at all. >> americas in the middle of a baby bust. >> the birth rate has fallen dramatically. it's below replacement level. >> not enough americans are being born to replace those who have died. >> historically, the safety valve for the u.s. has been -- >> starting under president trump, immigration to the u.s. plummeted. cutting us off from the workers we desperately need. >> growing fears of a recession and fanning the flames of economic decline. >> in massive labor shortage. >> the highest inflation in 40 years. >> america has three options. >> you can either have more babies -- >> which many experts say just

won't happen. >> or you can welcome more immigrants. or you can dwindle and fade into stagnation and irrelevance. i would favor the second option, welcoming more immigrants. >> instead, we've chosen the third. stagnation. refusing to let in more farmworkers according to one estimate could cost the u.s. economy $9 trillion by 2030. on the other hand, -- >> if everybody in the world who wanted to move could move, by one estimate, the total income of humanity would double. >> you heard that right. global wealth would roughly double. as workers from less affluent countries moved to join bustling economies. tune in tonight to understand

the problem and explore solutions. immigration breakdown premieres tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific on cnn and thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you tonight and again, next week. i'm off to america's best i heard what you said about not overpaying for glasses. two pairs and a free, quality eye exam starting at just $79.95? the exam alone is worth... 59 bucks. i mean, people deserve breaks, right? yeah, brakes...! [out of control] book an exam today at americasbest.com. i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out.

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