this is cnn breaking news. welcome to cnn special breaking news coverage as we follow developments in special counsel probes of donald trump. i'm anderson cooper in new york.

>> i'm jake taper on the campaign trail with governor desantis in south carolina. today the world learned donald trump is a target in the criminal investigation into 2020 election interference. this morning trump revealed he received a target letter from jack smith. the special counsel has not commented but cnn confirmed trump's attorney got the letter on sunday. >> it's notable that trump did not go public until today. the same day as a key pretrial hearing for the special counsel's other probe into trump's mishandling of classified documents. trump's attorneys and his indicted aide, walt nauta were sen entering the federal courthouse in florida. just a short time ago prosecutors are set to make their arguments in front of the presiding judge in the case for the first time, judge aileen

cannon told all parties to be ready to discuss a specific trial date. >> we are tracking all of these fast moving details from all angles. let's begin with this target letter trump received from the u.s. special counsel. cnn's senior crime and justice reporter caitlyn po lanz is joining us now. this is having to do with the 2020 overturning the election results. >> this is donald trump announcing the justice department telling him a few days ago, on sunday, through a letter that he is very likely to face a criminal charge in the ongoing investigation into what he and others were doing after the 2020 election to hold onto his presidency even though he had lost. wolf, it ique significant for the justice department to take a step like this. this is the thing that happens

at the end of a criminal investigation. and with donald trump it is the sort of thing that you do when you are formally giving him the opportunity to come to you and potentially make your own case or speak to the grand jury in your defense that is what happened before he was indicted in florida for the documents case, a totally separate case as far as we know but the special counsel's office is telling him, their investigation around the 2020 election is appearing to come to the end. trump can come to the grand jury by thursday of this week, if he would like to, and they're indicating he's likely to be indicted. this is a sprawling investigation that's taken place over many months even prior to jack smith's appointment. but the justice department is tight lipped right now as to what's coming in if a case here if trump will have any

co-conspirators or if it will be a conspiracy case meaning it will be against multiple people, what the charges might be, so a lot of questions with regards to how long the investigation has been. we saw jack getting a sandwich today on the street, and he had nothing to say. so we don't have much more than just watching the grand jury in and out doing their work in the federal courthouse in washington d.c. >> how is trump's legal team reacting to all of this? have they actually responded? >> well, as far as we know, wolf, they have not. but we know a few things from them. from our colleagues kaitlan collins and kristen holmes are getting incite sight there and a scramble. some of them are headed into court on this charged case but the case that hasn't been charged related to january 6th with be the ongoing investigation they're trying to

find out who else received a target letter, if anyone else, in addition to trump and trying to find out what the case may be here. we know two key people beside trump in much of his push to hold onto the presidency, rudy giuliani and john eastman they're coming out publically through their attorneys saying they have not received target letters in this investigation and thus have not been given any indication from the justice department they're about to face charges. but still a lot to be learned here. and the trump team was caught quite off kwguard when the lett came in on sunday night. >> thank you very much. jake? the pretrial hearing in donald trump's other federal criminal case just got under way in florida. this is about the alleged mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. the former president is not expected to attend the hearing in person, the attorneys are,

and his co-defendant walt nauta was also seen enter the courthouse. evan perez joins us now. what are attorneys discussing in this hearing about the classified documents case today? >> reporter: the reason this hearing was called is to discuss the scope of the classified documents. essentially the handliing of soe of the documents at the center of the investigation, at the center of this case. but yesterday the judge also notified the two sides she wanted them to also discuss a potential dtrial date, this is something the spcounsel has been pushing to get on the books. they said they could be ady to start a trial in december. the trump team said they don't want the judge to set a trial date just yet because they say there's a lot of litigation yet to still be decided. they say they want to challenge a number of things, including the authority of the special counsel, whether the documents

are even classified, something not at issue in this case. that said, the judge is expected to -- she could, for instance, decide she could set a trial date, at least one that could be moved later on. the other thing, jake, we're watching for obviously is the fact this is aileen cannon who was appointed by the former president. she ruled very favorably to him a few months ago, got slapped down by the conservative 11th circuit court. so the question we all are watching closely here from the judge is whether she is showing any of that deference to donald trump, the former president. it's something that the 11th circuit called into question, saying just because he's a former president doesn't mean you should create new rules for him. >> thank you very much. ellie honig, let's talk

about the timing. what happens next? the timeline. >> the question coming outs of today's hearing in florida is will the judge set a trial date. we have a traffic jam coming here, when it comes to scheduling all these trials we know the manhattan da's trial is scheduled to start the end of march 2024, that carries to april. the first question is can they try the federal mar-a-lago case in florida before that? we could get a trial date perhaps january or february. or will they try that case after that. but the problem is you're into the summer of 2024, the height of the political season. add on top of those cases we could well have a third federal indictment coming up for january 6th for donald trump and i don't know where they fit that in. >> we don't know who else may have or if anyone is going to receive letters so we don't know the scope of what the president is accused of. >> exactly. t one of the things is how many

defendants, co-defendants it takes longer to try four people together than one. and how construed are the charges here, an overarching conspiracy that can take longer. >> i know you have reaction from the team. >> they were surprised because they thought it would take longer for this to happen. they're trying to find out who else has gotten a target letter, if anyone. they're not able to find one so far. john eastman said no. that's the question they're trying to figure out the next piece of the puzzle. what they were expecting if trump were to be charged in this, it would surround potentially conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding with his efforts obviously with what happened on january 6th related to the oval office meetings they had, trying to get pence to do things he didn't have the authority to do. we don't know what the charge is going to be. they know what it could be but

it's mentioned in the target letter. >> that's what's fascinating and dramatic about today, there had been talk would this be the people around the former president charged? as of now, it seems like haems the only one but we don't know where the other letters may go. >> i was just talking to a legal source who was following this closely and the source said the cleanest case is to just do trump. to go narrow. you can start with him and then the others can follow. it may be a very short list. look at what jack smith did with mar-a-lago. that was also a very narrow case. and this source thinks that jack smith wants to move quickly and that the best way to do it is focus. >> does that make sense from a legal standpoint? >> it does. if you're focused on donald trump, investigating january 6th you want as little baggage as you can get.

it just adds to the time line. if the goal is let's get the most important person tried as quickly and efficiently as possible, yes. >> even if there's people meeting in the oval office with then president trump saying seize voting machines -- >> if you believe they were in a conspiracy together you need more than one person for a conspiracy, then you can charge those people but in a separate indictment and/or later. if the question is how can you charge donald trump alone if you need two or more for a conspiracy. you would see donald trump defendant and cc 1 or 2. >> we just approved this reporting first on cnn. we have now learned that jack smith's team has reached out to the former arizona governor, doug ducey who we know trump pressured him to majoover turn election. "the washington post" was reporting that doug doocy was

priced the justice department has not spoken to him. but then it was reached out that yes, the special counsel reached out to him. he will do the right thing. >> when you say jack smith's office reached out to him, you're talking about as a potential witness? >> this would be as a potential witness. trump tried to pressure doug doocy when he was the governor of arizona to overturn the election results. and doocy rejected that saying he didn't have the authority to do that. when he was certifying joe biden's win, trump called him and he ignored the call and certified the election for joe biden. and jack smith's team has now reached out to governor doocy. >> that's critical. my justice department sources

said to me, do not think this indictment is the end. it is the beginning. jack smith, quote, can walk and chew gum at the same time. so the fact that katelynn has this reporting about the former governor of arizona being called in as a witness we're likely to see that, see this indictment shortly and then we will see jack smith continue to do interviews. >> when you say they reached out to him, does ha mean he has gone to talk or you don't know? >> i asked the question, has he spoken to jack smith -- you go to meet with the investigators or the grand jury, they did not say which, just they reached out, he's been responsive and wants to do the right thing. >> this was reporting i had last week that new witnesses were going before federal prosecutors. so this may be part of an ongoing investigation. one thing i want to know, this may be narrowly focused on

donald trump to make it as clean as an investigation and process as it can be. but i would predict his team is going to spin that. once again he's the only person being targeted. i'm brynn gingraseing dindicted. it proves better if there's a conspiracy and going after all the folks. >> in terms of all the cases, the florida case and the documents case would come first. >> you don't necessarily as a legal matter have to try the cases in the order they're indicted. each case is on its own time line with its own judge setting different deadlines and trial dates. so it's possible that doj gets together with alvin bragg the da in manhattan maybe fauni willis in georgia. they may say we're the doj, we need to go first, get ours in

first. of course jack smith can work with his own team. >> we may get a date in a few hours from aileen cannon from the judge in florida for the new date for a trial. >> absolutely she may set a date and trump may try to use the news as a reason you shaould no set a deate. >> as a nonlawyer i'm intrigued at the rabbit trails we went down in a few minutes. we haven't mentioned a single ounce of having to run for president what that takes, the efforts it takes. we can talk about small dollar donations but at the end of the day, running for president is so hard and we're making this so much more difficult than we need to as republicans. say somebody showed up for a job interview and you answered the question anything going on in your life? i have a couple of state and federal indictments but i got it all figured out, i'll be at work 8:00 to 5:00, whether you're a

teacher, bus driver, subway worker it doesn't matter. it shouldn't be this complex. >> i agree. i was trying to talk to relatives about summer plans. trump might get indicted this week and it came back for which crime? for which crime? it's nuts. to your point we're not talking about the stuff we should be talking ant as a country. you have a situation across the country with weather and floods and heat domes we're not talking about that. we're talking about one guy who won't get out the way. we're continuing the coverage following our breaking news, former president trump saying he could be indicted in the investigation by special counsel jack smith. we'll l break it down further. stay with us. alsoso defends these services for everyone who lives here.. ♪

meet three students all learning to save and spend their money with chase. freedom for kids. hungry? thank you, chef. control for parents. nice. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. welcome back to cnn special live coverage i'm jake tapper on the campaign trail in south carolina. cnn is following the unprecedented developments of the unprecedented behavior of a former president potentially facing more criminal charges. donald trump announcing online

today on his truth social media app that he received a letter from jack smith informing him he is the target of a different criminal investigation this looks into efforts to overturn the 2020 election leading up to the january 6th attack on the capitol. caitlyn this federal investigation is obviously very complicated, comprehensive. who has spoken to investigators. who has spoken to the grand jury? >> reporter: let me start with someone we're expecting to come back to the grand jury potentially for the third or more times a man named will russell. he's expected and we can report this, we's now expected to be testifying on thursday. this is a trump adviser that worked with donald trump in the white house and then continued to work with him after the presidency. so there is a lot going on here, i'm starting with that because it's this point that allows us

to see this grand jury is still active. they do expect testimony to be coming on thursday. but, jake, the sweep of this investigation is so extensive. this is an investigation on so many fronts, it has looked into trump's knowledge that he lost the election. it has looked into the fake elector schemes he used in battleground states there's been grand jury testimony abo and pence on the pressure to block the results on the election. and there'information about what happened at the justice department, using that federal agency to try to support donald trump when he lost to give him cover for disinformation. there's testimony about threats, intim intimidation, outreach from battleground dates. and discussions of a special counsel seizing voting machines

and fund-raising is part of this. when you put it all together, you have a true laundry list of witnesses that have been before the grand jury in washington d.c. on this investigation or have already spoken to prosecutors. people who testified to the grand jury, i mentionemike pence he's not even one of the most significant ones, pretty significant but mark meadows also ted to the grand jury, people from the white house testified, his son-in-law jared kushner. and hope hicks. the grand jury has heard from those people on top of what they had already said to the january 6th select committee on capitol hill. and there have been interviews of stateials, secretaries of states intlegund states wherelecon was going off the ras because of donald trump's efforts, pennsylvania,

georgia, wisconsin, arizona, michigan, so many different people that the special counsel's office talked to to get a full picture of not just what was happening in washington and on the hill january 6th but also across the country when donald trump was seeking to block his loss ocht presidency. we don't know how this case is going to turn out, when it will be charged, who will be named in the charges if they come, but we are waiting for the result of an extensive amount of work by the justice department here. >> thanks so much. wolf? i want to discuss further right now with our political and legal experts elliott williams you're our legal analyst right now. as far as we know, trump's legal team has not responded to this request that he appear and answer questions before the federal grand jury. what do you anticipate? what do you expect?

>> he can. he has the choice to go before the federal grand jury as a means of making his case. when prosecutors give a target letter, it provides the defendant with an opportunity to come in a few days later andlessen the sting as it were here. sort of talk through why he thinks he might not be charged or should not be charged or so on. odds are, i think the former president does not go into this grand jury he doesn't gain a ton by doing so. and if he's going to be charged with a crime down the road, it wouldn't make much sense for him to come in. i would guess he wouldn't and would make a political bluster about it. >> i suspect you're right. andrew mccabe you're the former deputy director of the fbi. which facet of the january 6th criminal investigation do you think may bring the most severe charges potentially. >> there's many ways that the

prosecutors can go. there's a broad scope of activity that we know have come under the lens of the grand jury and multiple witnesses from trump's inner circle have testified about. but i think there are some basic charges that are more prese presentable, easier to understand from the jury and those would include conspiracy charges on 18 usc 371 those would be charges of committing, expiring to commit a fraud against the government in terms of under mining the election and charges under 18 usc 1512, which is obstructing an official proceeding. we know other defendants have been charged and convicted of 1512. and then finally -- or as more of a reach and more serious, there are charges around insurrection around 1823, i can

think of three or four more on the radar so we'll see if he's indicted what the charges are? >> laura, you're a legal analyst as well. former federal prosecutor. explain the difference between a witness who goes before the federal grand jury to answer questions as opposed to a witness who answers questions from a federal prosecutor? >> the grand jury is one of the most significant and interesting and secretive processes in all of our legal system here. why? it's for probable cause, remember. the job is not a trial jury, the job is not to decide guilt or innocence. it's to figure out whether or not there's enough probable cause to say a crime occurred. unlike a trial courtroom you don't get to have your lawyer in the room with you, maybe coaching you, telling you, saying don't answer this question, say this.

you are on your own. and the prosecution alone is not the one who gets to ask ques questions. the jurors get to ask questions. they have corroboration by other testimony by the time you get to a major witness and you have the subpoena power of that grand jury. so the witness is not prooif hav privy to knowing what came before, there's no evidence to know what ought to come in or later on. it's,people are talking about a prosecutor being able to indict a ham sandwich. but here it's all been very public. we watched what happened on january 6th. we also saw the january 6th committee. a lot of usually what's behind closed doors does come out in the light so i wonder what is additive of this looming indictment? >> it's a bigger deal if the special counsel says you'll testify before the federal grand

jury as opposed to just the investigators? is it. >> absolutely. it can be thought of as not precisely one in the same but everything will be talked about in a future proceeding aa subsequent prosecution, different jurisdictions, the old phrase from law and order we know so well. everything you say can and will be used against you. this is a man on the campaign trail, former president trump, he's held rallies, he has not wanted to muzzle himself. that's salivating in p many respects if you're a prosecutor. let's talk about how this could impact the 2024 presidential campaigns and the elections going forward. how do you anticipate trump's republicans rivals will respond? >> we will find out. in fact, we will find out soon how the most prominent of his challenges, ron desantis, responds to this information. i think we know in the kind of

two basic categories here, there are the people like asia hutchinson and chris christie who are clear from the beginning they think it's disqualifying and unacceptable. but there are others trying to thread the needle here. and ron desantis principal among them is trying to make a shift we saw it this morning, mildly, gently criticizing trump but still not wanting to go there. we'll see what he says to jake this afternoon. but this is a test, a moment for his challengers to find out where they think the political winds are blowing. and so far, the ones who are the most interested in trying to pull donald trump's voters have not been willing to criticize him. trump, i think by announcing this today, and doing so two days after he received that target letter, is basically making a bet that this is going to help him. this is going to help him dominate the news cycle, it's

going to help him raise money and do what he did the last time he was indicted, which is gain in the polls. so we'll see what happens but i don't think there's any evidence to suggest this indictment will be different from the last one. >> jake's interview will air in the 4:00 p.m. eastern hour on the lead. we'll watch that, of course. thank you very much. don't go too far away we're following the breaking news right now. right after january 6th, the house speaker, kevin mccarthy, said trump bears responsibility for the capitol hill attack but now that trump has received a target letter from the u.s. justice department, the speaker is accusing the biden administration of playing politics. we'll have a live report from capitol hill. that's next. y in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll takake that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 gramsms of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max chchallenge. ♪ ♪ people always ask me, "kevin, what does being the ceo of cashbacking mean to you?" the way that i see it, if you're buying it,

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welcome back to cnn special coverage. we are following breaking news in both special counsel probes into former president trump. right now his defense lawyers are in front of a federal judge in the classified documents case in florida, he's been charged in that probe tied with mishandling documents. also today in the parallel special counsel investigation into 2020 election interference we now know that trump is a target of that sprawling probe. he was informed in a letter on sunday. those letters often signal an investigation is wrapping up and indictment is on the way. the former president's allies are rushing to his defense. here's reaction from house speaker kevin mccarthy. >> what do they do, weapon nize

the government to go after their opponent. i think the american public is tired of this. >> what more are you hearing from republicans in congress, manu? >> reporter: a lot of them aligning themselves with donald trump and contending he has been unfairly targeted, there is a two-tiered justice system even though they have not seen any allegations that special counsel jack smith has come up with this sprawling investigation into january 6th and seen any of the evidence or have any idea what the charges might be. they're still rushing to defend him. many in line with the speaker of the house. but others are silent, including mitch mcconnell, his top deputy has not said anything. similar to the past two indictments when mitch mcconnell was quiet and kevin mccarthy was vocal. under scoring how the two men

deal with the indictments. some of them also indicating that donald trump had little role on january 6th. and i asked several of the house members moments ago about trump's role on january 6th and whether he believes he was responsible for the violence in the building that day? >> do you think trump was at all responsible for january 6th? >> i really don't know. >> you were here that day. >> i voted to certify the election. i believe that there should never have been a rally to begin with. but -- and it certainly got out of hand. do i believe he told people to come over here and break through the windows and storm the capitol, i don't believe he did that. but i never was a fan of the rally that day. >> we had a debate on impeachment, which is what the constitution said about incitement and it failed. that's the point here. the american people want to move

forward and they're trying to go backward. >> reporter: now, there was an impeachment resolution that was offered in the days after january 6th, 2021. it was approved on a bipartisan basis in the house but not -- trump of course was not convicted in the senate which needed 67 votes so there was bipartisan support to do just that. but there are other calls for other actions that republicans can take to go after jack smith since they control the house majority. some are talking about going after jack smith's budget that's what hard right members, like mei matt gaetz and others are suggesting they do. anderson, that's what the house judiciary committee is ie eyeing, they asked for records from jack smith as part of the probe so the justice department does not want to provide that as part of an ongoing investigation but that will be a point of contention in the weeks ahead.

>> thank you, manu. i want to bring in michael f fanone a former d.c. metro police officer badly injured responding to the january 6th attack. what's your reaction to the news that trump is now officially a target of this criminal investigation surrounding what happened on january 6th? >> i think the letter just brings to light what we all -- or at least more americans who are grounded in reality saw as the inev inevitable outcome of investigation or what we hoped for. my first reaction was better late than never. >> trump is heading to a campaign event later today in iowa, how concerned are you potentially about his rhetoric that's going to be emerging? >> i mean, i'm not in the law enforcement profession anymore, but as somebody who has felt the

brunt of his rhetoric, i would be incredibly concerned. i would be incredibly concerned if i was in law enforcement. i'm incredibly concerned as an american citizen. we know what donald trump is capable of and we know what his rhetoric is designed to do. what it's designed to elicit. whether it's his attacks on the fbi or his attacks on director wray, jack smith, the federal prosecutor in this case, or merrick garland. it's designed to elicit a violent response from his followers. >> on that point if he is officially indicted for his role in january 6th do you fear his supporters will react potentially in another brutal way? >> i think that concerns about that type of reaction are warranted. obviously we saw what happened on january 6th. that being said, you know, this country is founded on principal,

at least one of its pillars is that -- the rule of law. there are laws in the country enact act by elected representatives that we all, as americans, agree to adhere to. donald trump clearly felt he was above the law. so i'm not concerned with the politics or what type of a response a prosecution of a former president elicits. the constitution in this country demand that the former -- president be prosecuted because he broke the law. >> do you fear potentially another insurrection? >> i don't know if we'll see something to that magnitude. but i definitely am al cconcern with smaller groups who are conspireing to commit acts of violence on donald trump's behalf. but there's always a potential depending on his statements. i think people will be watching closely tonight what he says in iowa. >> some of trump's republican

allies in congress continue to stand by his side despite all of this what's going on. is their defense of trump potentially dangerous? >> absolutely. anybody that continues to defend his lies and his statements, his inflammatory statements, is just adding credibility to an individual who has no credibility whatsoever. and is making it much more difficult for americans to discount his statements as the lies that they are. >> final question, i know you were badly wounded on january 6th by these insurrectionists. how are you doing? >> i get asked that question all the time. i'm still trying to -- i don't know, wolf. i'm still trying to figure out what the hell happened, what happened to me, why it is that i'm not a cop anymore?

one day at a time. >> good luck to you. we wish you only only the very best. michael fanone thank you for all you've done and thank you for joining us. we're following the breaking news, the former president of the united states donald trump saying he could be indicted soon in a second investigation by the federal special counsel jack smith. more information coming in. stay with us.

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this is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ we're back now. i'm in columbia, south carolina on the campaign trail with governor desantis. we're covering the breaking news right now, donald trump says that he is a target of special counsel jack smith's other investigation. the one into efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

this is a major signal that prosecutors could once again file charges against the former president. it could, obviously, seriously impact the 2024 presidential race. with me to discuss here in columbia, south carolina we have with us, former special assistance to george w. bush, scott jennings. and republican strategist kris ten sanders. and bakari sellers, former democratic state representative in this area of town. is this where you worked? >> that's where i worked. >> great. scott let me start with something that desantis allies have been wondering about. donald trump was notified on sunday he was a target and he had until thursday if he had a story to tell the grand jury he had until thursday to do so. he announced it today right before governor desantis announced a new policy proposal for the military right before he did an interview with me that's

going to air on "the lead" at 4:00 eastern. do you think the timing is coinc coincidental? >> i can understand why they were trying to think that because it would be like trump to do that. however the vibrations i'm pim picking up are it's better to be lucky than good. i felt the trump team needed to get it out there because it was going to leak. we're talking about the trump indictment >> obviously, the trump team is out there trying to fundraise on this. i suppose it would be political malpractice for them not to do so. but do you think that ultimately, all these indictments, all these criminal charges will hurt donald trump with republican voters? >> it wouldn't surprise me if we see another sort of brief rally around him kind of effect. it wouldn't surprise me if his poll numbers go up another point

or two if another indictment comes down, with republicans going, i have to defend my guy. but i do wonder if over a long enough time period, the accumulated weight of all of this begins to make republican voters weary. they may like donald trump, like his policies, think he is totally in the right and all of these legal challenges to him are flawed and are politically motivated, but the 2024 election is too much to risk on someone who very well could be spending it focused on his own legal troubles. that's what i wonder as we get through the next six months. do republican voters begin to go, i like this guy, but maybe he's too much of a risk? >> it is interesting. before when i sat down with he speech out outlining his military policy. he took a few questions from the audience and from reporters. in one of his answers about the pending trump indictment, we believe, he said something mildly critical of donald trump. it was in the context of just because donald trump -- i'm paraphrasing here -- just because donald trump did

something wrong or didn't do anything to stop the mob on that day doesn't mean that's criminal. he was saying nit a way of defending him, but he did suggest that donald trump should have done something on that day. then he backed off that, and his campaign, the trump people attacked him for it. they put out a truncated clip, believe it or not, and the desantis people pushed back saying, here's the whole clip. he was defending trump, et cetera. does it surprise you? >> so it's weird. the reason i say that, jake, is because a lot of republicans are trying to walk that fine line, of being critical of donald trump but not alienating his base. they're finding themselves having to contort into pretzels to do that. there aren't many outside of chris christie and asa hutchinson who have been firmly against the alaskas of donald trump. when ron desantis tries to fence it, you see that he has trouble doing that. nikki haley has the same problem doing that. many get in trouble when they do that. republican voters, just like democratic voters, want you to choose a side, stand there and

stand for something. that's when ron desantis gets into the most trouble. >> what do you think, scott, if you were advising a candidate, how would you tell them to do this on a political basis? how would you tell them to respond? i did ask governor desantis about this in the interview, and we'll bring it the top of the 4:00 hour, but how would you advise a candidate or republican to do it? >> be honest. the one thing about january 6th that is true, it all happened live on television. we all watched it. there is no mystery about what happened. how you talk about it beyond that, i think, is probably prescribed by the belief on some of these campaigns that they just need to be acceptable in the event that what kristin said happens, that trump collapses, that at some point, if it becomes too much and he begins to fade, you're there to pick up the ball. respectfully, like governor hutchinson, he is not going to be there to pick up the ball. the candidates that could be left in the mix, certainly desantis, certainly tim scott, nikki haley and others, you have to remain acceptable to enough republicans to be ready, should the weight of all this drag

trump down. i'm not sure it will ever, but if it does, how do you remain acceptable to most of the base to win votes in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina? >> kristin, in preparation for the interview, i read governor desantis' recent memoir, "the courage to be free," and there's a lot in there. obviously, this is written as a political document, but there's a lot in there about rule of law and abiding by the rule of law. i understand this argument of, you know, hunter biden and double standards. i get that republicans are going to say that. i understand why they do. but isn't there an honest, like, obvious answer on the january 6th? like, we support the rule of law. if the president broke the law, if former president broke the law, he needs to face the consequence. i don't think he did based on, you know, the evidence -- i'm giving the republican answer now. based on the evidence i've seen, i don't think he's broken the law, but we have to respect the rule of law. that wouldn't be resonant with republicans? >> i feel the place that would be the most resonant is on the indictment that's already been handed down, around the national security documents. it seems really clear and

egregious. there's all kinds of evidence of boxes being stored in bathrooms, that it seems like pretty clear cut what the laws are around the storage of really, really important, sesecure, national security documents. it seems pretty clear the president did not handle them very well. on this one, i can see republicans being able to very much take the position of january 6th was terrible, but it doesn't seem to me like donald trump simply wanting to defend himself and wanting to be president constitutes something that should be criminal. i actually think for those who want to go after trump within the republican party, the safer one of these indictments, to say, this was wrong and this potentially hurt americans, is the one about the mar-a-lago documents. not necessarily the january 6th one. >> what do i couldyou think? >> i think what i would advise someone to do, though they aren't listening to me and aren't paying me, just wait until the indictment comes out. there is nothing wrong with telling the american people, we don't know what he is charged with right now. i'm not sure what is going to happen. january 6th was a bad day. i want to wait and see what the facts are. in this country right now, i

think we all agree there is a rush to judgment, to cancel someone or adjudicate someone. why not wait and see what it is? that's how people like nikki haley got in trouble with the last indictment. >> yeah, we saw this happen on the documents. campaigns jumped out just on thn they walked back the statements and were on both sides of it. it looked a little weird. >> to chris christie's credit, though he is critical of trump, he refrained from commenting until the actual indictment came out that friday. thanks, everyone. appreciate it. also happening now, a key hearing in the trump classified documents case in florida. we have reporters inside that courtroom, and we are, of course, following the very latest. stay with cnn for all the breaking news coverage. we'll be right back. ♪ it's our turn now we'll make it up again. ♪ ♪ we'll buildld freelance teams with more agility. ♪ ♪ the old way o of working is deader than me. ♪ ♪ we'll scale up, and we'll scale down ♪

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