another pollster. so, i don't know where this goes from here. but he really needs to do well in iowa, he needs to come in first, or a very, very strong second. and, he obviously needs to do well here in south carolina, and, look -- it's early. it's early. the first contest is not until january 15th in iowa. but, there's a lot of ground to be made up, and we will see if he can deliver. >> i mean, he does, compared to the others who are in the race, looking for that rnc nomination, he is besting them, of course, compared to donald trump, he is not. but in either event, in iowa, he's got the support so far, although she has notthe govern endorsed him. jake tapper, great interview. we're all looking forward to hearing what the governor had to say. thanks for bringing it to us today. >> thanks, laura. good to see you. now, before we go tonight, there is a sudden development in the cold case of tupac shakur's unsolved murder. las vegas police are not giving away any details, but they have

confirmed that a search warrant was executed in a location in henderson, nevada. tupac was shot to death while sitting in a car in 1996 after leaving an event on the vegas strip. cnn reported a the time that authorities believed that he was intentionally targeted. thanks for joining me tonight. i'm glad you're here. i'm laura coates. cnn tonight with alisyn camerota starts right now.. a donald trump and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. now that trump has been informed that he is a target of jack smith's investigation, what happens next? and what we've learned about those 16 fake electors in michigan. we're going to bring you tomorrow's news tonight. meanwhile, it appears that the judge in the mar-a-lago classified documents case will not fast-track the trial. so will it happen before the 2024 election?

and one t one and only geraldo rivera will be here tonight to talk politics, his exit from fox, and why he says he'll use his energy to keep donald trump from becoming president again. >> i got the letter on sunday night. think of it. i don't think they've ever sent a letter on sunday night. and they're in a rush because they want to interfere. it's interference with the election. election interference. it's never been done like this in the history of our country, and it's a disgrace. >> let's begin with tomorrow's news tonight. donald trump announced, as you just heard, that he got this letter from the special prosecutor telling him he is a target of the criminal investigation into election inter interference. does that mean that trump could be indicted again soon? let's ask cnn senior justice correspondent evan perez. we also have with us james schultz, a former trump white house lawyer, andrew mccabe, former deputy fbi director.

gentlemen, so great to have you here. evan, what happens now? >> well, i think we can expect an indictment. that's what this letter signified. this was a warning to the former president that he has until thursday. he can come to the grand jury on thursday here in washington, d.c. if he wants to avail himself of that opportunity, he can do that. present evidence, bring evidence with him. and if he doesn't, then the clock starts ticking. so we can expect that perhaps as soon as thursday, the grand jury could vote on an indictment of the former president. we do know, alisyn, that at least one other witness, perhaps a couple of witnesses might also good b going to the grand jury, probably for very, very short stints. in one case, we know of somebody who has been in there a couple of times. he is going in for a third time. so at this point, everything seems perfunctory. everything seems like this investigation is pretty much finished, and the special

counsel jack smith is ready to move ahead. and so now we wait. >> okay, got it. john miller, you have come across a lot of target letters in your career in law enforcement. how big of a deal is this? and do the target letters spell out the crimes that the recipient is being investigated for? >> so in general, yes. but the target letter is it's not a legal requirement. it's not a standard procedure. target letter has a purpose. sometimes prosecutors will use it to stir up the case by letting people know they're targets, and then see what happens next. that's a technique. but in this case, the target letter is coming near the end of the grand jury presentation to give the target notice that a, they're a target. guess what? we all knew donald trump was a target of this investigation. but to give him the opportunity having formally been notified to come in and testify. would he come in and testify? not likely. even if it was his desire, i think the lawyers he has right

now, including todd blanche would know his history of inconsistent statements under oath that could get him in trouble. so this is a signal that they're rounding third base. do i think we're going to see an indictment on thursday if he doesn't show up? no. i think as evan hinted, the grand jury has a little cleanup work to do towards the end in that presentation, but i think it will be similar to what we saw in the testimonies case. >> like a three-week time period, between the target letter and an indictment? >> most grand juries meet twice a week. and, you know, they get done what they can get done that day. jack smith has been very busy and efficient. so i would say, you know, let's put it in the ten-day arc, longer or shorter. >> jim, it's interesting to hear john say we all knew that he was a target, because our reporting, kaitlan collins has the reporting that this did catch the trump team off guard, this target letter. they were not expecting jack

smith to bring charges this month or against trump at all. how is that possible? >> you know, as you saw folks from the inner circle coming into the grand jury being reportedly coming into the grand jury, you can see that this thing was coming to a close. and you could see that the target was likely donald trump. so i don't think there is any real surprise here that donald trump received a target letter and will likely be indicted in ten days and two weeks. >> everybody is on agreement on that. andrew, will other people face charges? is it possible that only donald trump is the target? >> you know, allison, i guess it's possible. but i find it to be highly unlikely. when you think about the different charges that trump may face if he is indicted, almost all of them require the presence of others. you talk about 371 conspiracy to defraud the united states government by definition, it's a

conspiracy. it requires the presence of another offender. and the rest of the charges have similar -- have similar elements like that. we know from the evidence that we're all very familiar with, from the work of the january 6th committee up through the appearances of individuals in the grand jury over the last several months, we know that these potential charges involve at least the folks who are closest to donald trump in the lead-up to january 6th in the immediate aftermath. so people like john eastman and kenneth chesebro and rudy giuliani and others have been mentioned. so the idea that ultimately trump will be indicted by himself seems highly unlikely to me, although as of today, we haven't heard about target letters landing on anybody else's desks. i would mention, however, though, the delivery of target letters is not a requirement in the department of justice. it's certainly not a legal requirement. so there is no hard and fast rule that says anyone else has the get one.

>> evan, do you have any insight into this one while rudy giuliani hasn't received a target letter? >> yeah, we don't really have any insight. but as andy mccabe just pointed out, a couple of people that we know have been at the center of this investigation, people like john eastman, for instance, right, who was stopped by the fbi, they seized his telephone. jeffrey clark, a former justice department official, again, at the center of all of this, his home got raided. so that's pretty much is a notice from the justice department that you are the target of an investigation. so i think for some of those folks, this is not necessarily a surprise that they are at the center of this. rudy giuliani is a different one. he just went in for a couple of days of testimony. we don't know what he said. and so that much, that one is certainly one of the ones that everyone is asking questions about at this point. >> anything the add to that, john? >> i think what people who were in the room have told me that

the subject of those two days was basically process. it mirrored his january 6th committee testimony. some of it was covered by lawyer-client privilege. i can't tell you that, because that was privilege between my client donald trump and me. but a lot of it was so you thought there was election fraud. what did you do? we gathered up allegations and brought them to different courts and different bodies, and we were rejected in all of those places, dozens of them. and after that, that was our legal effort. and, you know, there is no crime in trying to get a body to certify alternate elector, especially when they say no. >> jim, another interesting thing about this is multiple people have testified before the january 6th select committee that they told donald trump that there was no election fraud. so here is a smattering of that. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying

the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which i told the president was bullshit. >> he wanted to talk about he thought the election had been stolen or was corrupt, and that there was widespread fraud. and i had told him that our reviews had not shown that to be the case. >> i said something to the effect of, sir, we've done dozens of investigation, hundreds of interviews. the major allegations are not supported by the evidence developed. we've looked in georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, nevada. we're doing our job. much of the info you're getting is false. >> so, jim, will he be able to really use as his defense "i didn't know"? >> look, it depends what he said to other people. we're going learn a lot from the indictment when it hits. i'm sure it's going to be a tight speaking indictment just like the last one. and we're learn. we'll probably see that folks had told him this. we'll probably see that said

that he believed that he still won. the question is did he make an admission at some point in time to someone that he believed he lost the election. if that's the case, he's got real problems on that issue for sure. >> jim, do you have any theories right now on the status of mark meadows? we haven't seen him for a while. >> no, we've seen knowing of mark meadows. i don't have any theories on it. maybe he has been talking to people. maybe he had been part of the grand jury testimony. obviously he was part of the january 6th interviews. i don't know, i don't think any of us can know, but i think we'll find out real soon what's been going on with mark meadows. >> evan, do you have reporting on that? >> we don't know. i think the center of a lot of speculation within the trump circle. they're certainly worried about it, because they just have not

heard any indication of exactly what he did when he went in. all we know from his attorneys is that he told the truth. that's all that we've heard from his legal team. and so the guessing game continues. >> john, do you assume that people are cooperating? >> so that's an interesting concept, because the assumption here is people are going in and telling the truth. you know we consider cooperating if you're in a mob family and there is a code of silence and you break that and you're cooperating, that's anathema. these are government officials, public servants who have been called in under oath. and presumably, they're telling the truth, with i may or may not good b good for donald trump if they were in meetings in offices where they said okay, know we lost, but how do we overturn this, even if it means having people storm the capital or calling the vice president and asking him to conspire with us not to do his job. >> you're right. i need a new verb. just telling the truth is what

you're saying. it's considered cooperating. >> it is considered cooperating. but, you know, cooperating is looked at in a criminal conspiracy as going against your criminal code. in this case, if these are people who took an oath to the united states government and they did something with the president of the united states that they need to describe in a grand jury, they should tell the truth. if that's cooperating, that's cooperating. >> i got you. i totally get the distinction here. evan, there another story that's going to get a lot of play tomorrow, and that is michigan's attorney general has charged 16 people with being fake electors because they falsely claimed that donald trump won michigan in 2020. so what have you learned on this? >> right. so these are 16 people who were part of this scheme to set up these fake electors and claim that donald trump won their states, which of course he did not. in the case of michigan, they actually tried to go to the state house to try to present themselves as donald trump electors. they were turned away by the

police. and they've finally been charged by the state attorney general today as part of this investigation. we do not -- we do know that there are other states that are investigating similar schemes in georgia and arizona. so it's possible we'll see this. and of course, jack smith's own investigators have also been looking at this scheme. so you can expect that this might be just a beginning of this story. >> and we're out of time. i want to give you one more bite at the apple. your thoughts on this scheme? >> i think the fake elector scheme has really become the core of this prosecution that we all expect will go forward in the next week or so. it's the absolute center of any sort of charge about defrauding the federal government. it could form the basis of a charge of a thousand and one false statements. there is all kinds of ways the fake elector scheme is going to be very relevant to any prosecution. i think it's something we need to keep a very close eye on. >> gentlemen, thank you very much for all the expertise. okay, next, tom foreman is going the head to the magic wall

to show us the many ways donald trump and his allies tried to stop joe biden from taking office in 2020, and how those schemes are coming back to haunt them. comfort has free hot breakfast for the whole fam. they have waffles! and splendid pools. cannonball! book direct at choicehotels.com.

tonight, new criminal charges in michigan against 16 fake electors who tried to overturn their state's 2020 election results. cnn's tom foreman is at the magic wall with this and more for us. hi, tom. >> how are you doing, alisyn? this is one of the really interesting cases when you look at all the different ways the team supporting trump wanted toover turn the elections. 15 chargers fit well into the accusation former president donald trump and his supporters tried repeatedly to overturn the 202010 election. seven states have come under the special counsel's scrutiny over allegations of false electors, legislative plans to nullify the voting results, and/or those phone calls from trump seemingly

pressuring election officials to take legal fair votes away from joe biden and give them to trump. what else was tried? team trump launched at least 62 efforts to have election results invalidated in the courts. all but one ended in defeat. when even the supreme court rejected a claim, trump tweeted "the supreme court really let us down. no wisdom. no courage." you know the special counsel has also been looking at a december 2020 oval office meeting in which the president and his team reportedly discussed seizing voting machines and declaring martial law to stop his defeat from becoming official. we know then vice president pence was under enormous pressure from trump to block certification of the vote, even though pence had no legal power to do that. and of course we all saw the violent attack that came after trump urged his followers to converge on the capitol and told them to fight like hell as lawmakers were certifying the vote. for all of that, for all of

those efforts, trump's assessment about this latest news, he put it on social media. have i the right to protest an election that i am fully convinced was rigged and stolen. but, but, there is clearly a lot here that legal analysts think may mai have gone well beyond simply a protest. allison? >> tom, thank you for reminding us of all of those threats. joining us now, cnn political commentator ana navarro. former lieutenant governor of georgia jeff duncan, and special adviser to president obama and cnn political commentator van jones. great to have all of you guys hereby. lieutenant governor, everything that tom just laid out there. all evidence of possible crime at least grossly inappropriate behavior. how do row explain why so many republicans are still supporting donald trump at this point? >> i explain it as stockholm syndrome a coupe of days ago. he like kidnapped the republican party, abused us for years, and

all of the sudden his biggest victims are now coming to court to protect him. that's all i can explain it with. look, at the end of the day, donald trump has done almost irreparable damage to the current republican party, and it's time for a gop 2.0. to see these electorates, which we're going to watch the same story play out in georgia in a few weeks with fani willis, i'm not certain of but feel likely. these are great people probably in their communities and upstanding people that the president of the united states told them something, and they believed them. now it's going the train wreck their finances. it's going to traiwreck some of their lives and some may end up going to jail. >> your former boss brian kemp was on cnn last night and was asked by kaitlan collins if he would still support donald trump and work the get him elected if he were the nominee, and he says he will. why would he do that after everything you've just laid out? >> brian kemp around i agree on a lot, but not that. i will never support donald trump. i can not look my kids, my wife, my friends, my supporters in the

eyes and explain to them why i ever think donald trump would make sense to lead anything. i wouldn't donald trump in charge of a lemonade stand. >> do you understand why brian kemp would? >> certainly brian has been a great leader. using brian as an example we should see these presidential candidates that are out there trying to flail around and split hairs about donald trump, they ought to take brian kemp's advice. they ought to take the weekend off and look what he did to beat david perdue in a primary by 52%. remember, david perdue was donald trump's best friend. and then he beat stacey abrams in a very wide open race. >> ana, speaking of the other candidates who are running for republican nomination. jake tapper sat down with a gop governor ron desantis this afternoon. and he was claiming basically that the doj has been weaponized against donald trump. so here is that moment. >> jack smith has prosecuted democrats too. i mean, he prosecuted or at least was part of the

prosecution of senator menendez, senator john edwards. are you saying that if he finds evidence of criminality, he should not charge donald trump in any way? >> what i'm saying is when you're going after somebody on the other side of the political spectrum, if you're stretching statutes to try to criminalize political disagreements, that is wrong. this is all speculation. but i think we have gone down the road in this country of trying to criminalize differences and politics rather than saying okay, you don't like somebody? then defeat them in the election rather than trying to use the justice system. >> do you understand why trump's gop opponents are not seizing on his possible crimes? >> remember that i'm watching this as an american voter, but also as a floridian. so when i hear him talk about criminalizing agencies and how wrong it is, i can only think of

my friends who owned in florida and are being dragged to court and are being criminal ides. they're trying to take their liquor license away. ron desantis has weaponized his agencies against that branch in florida. he has weaponized his agencies and passed legislation against disney, the largest employer in florida. for him to sit there and talking about how wrong it is to weapon nice government agencies against people who disagree with you is the height of hypocrisy to such a level that i hope somebody, somebody confronts him with that in the debate. i think it's part of the reason why he has lost some points. because republicans realize that weaponizing government, passing legislation against the likes of mickey mouse is wrong, even republicans like mickey mouse. >> your thoughts on all of this? >> i think what's weird is people act like we're going so hard on trump.

can you imagine if a bunch of muslims had attacked a joint session of congress? if ilhan omar said this is wrong and gave a big speech and 10,000 muss lips, she would be in jail right now. she wouldn't be walking around, running for president, giving introduce. there is a two-tiered system of justice, and donald trump is benefitting from it. the fact that he is a free man right now. i think it's the whole thing this kind of pity party that he is throwing for himself, the ultimate snowflake candidate when he's actually being treated with kid gloves. this is taking way too long. if black lives matter had attacked a joint session of congress, they would all be under jail right now. i don't know what he is talking about. >> what do you think will happen if snun of these things, as tom foreman just laid out come to fruition? no trial happens before the 2024 election? >> that's trump's plan the whole time. that's why he threw his hat in the ring as soon as he possibly

could. he has no defense except to pretend he is being persecuted. he has no defense at all because it's clear as day what he did is wrong. >> what do you think happens? >> if something doesn't structurally change with the focus of the republican party, here's what happens. donald trump wins the primary and loses the general, and we're back to having four more years of joe biden. >> yay. >> who right now statistically is the most beatable sitting president in the history of this country. but we're going to squander another opportunity to put conservative policies forward. you can't be donald trump light. you shouldn't be donald trump light. i think every candidate running for candidate as president saying the most presidential thing donald trump can do is walk gray the right. he doesn't care about being an american. he doesn't care about being a republican. he cares about his pride and evening quo and it's eating him up. >> how about these fake elector? they were willin masquerade and go along -- course this is what they're accused of.

but there does seem to be some evidence against how this scheme was going to unfold. what are we to make of this? >> i continued feeling like i'm watching a scandal, the show on a loop. and the things -- the plots are just the kind of things that not even shonda rhimes could come up with, because it's such in insanity. but it was happening in so many different places. and what's sad is that none of it is going to matter. >> why? >> because it's baked into the cake. because they think that donald trump is being victimized. because, frankly, ron desantis is not making the sale. because it turns out he is a big paper tiger. so there is no alternative to donald trump, right? chris christie is not an alternative to donald trump when it comes to conservative voters. i mean, most of the people on that stage are just not breaking through with the exception of tim scott who's got a glimmer of hope. but ron desantis has been a

failure. and he is not failing because the corporate media, as he calls it is failing. he is failing because he has been a bad candidate. he is failing because he is not articulating the positive vision for america that he discussed that he was going to do in that interview. instead, all he does is a verb, a noun and woke. and that becomes very exhausting. and that becomes very lacking creativity. and it bores the electorate. and he is just coming across as a vindictive, thin-skinned awkward bobblehead of a bad candidate who republicans are not willing to let go of trump for to hold on to that other world. >> on that note, friends, thank you very much for your perspectives. great to talk to you tonight. all right. and coming up next, the man who has covered every big story around the globe for more than 50 years. my old friend geraldo rivera is here to talk about all of today's news and life after fox. stick around.

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you've watch his reporting and his talk shows for more than 50 years, though he doesn't look a day over 40.

joining me now is award winning journalist and former talk show host geraldo rivera. he just quit fox after two decades, and this is his first interview on cnn in 15 years. >> wow. >> hi, friend. >> it seems so short a time. it's great to see you. >> it's great to see you too. >> one oh my faith favorites wh were at fox. and i'm looking seeing you higher too. it feels great to be here. >> it feels great to see you. the news gods have been busy tonight. so i want to start with the news. so donald trump has received a target letter from the special counsel jack smith, as you know, who is investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election, january 6th attack on the capitol. how do you think all of this will play against the backdrop of a presidential election? >> i think that every charge, every news conference by the justice department, every move to prosecute him will be more votes in the republican primary. i think they strengthen his hand. they make his nomination ever

more certain. even were he to be convicted and go to jail, he would be -- win the primary, the republican primary, even as a federal prisoner. and i think that one of the reasons he wants to be president is so he can pardon himself because his conviction would be certain. >> and why is that? why would he win the nominee as federal prisoner? >> because you can be president, even though you're in prison, as long as you are 35 years old and you've been a resident of the united states for 14 years, a natural born citizen. he can be president. >> in other words, why does that make him a good candidate for republican voters? >> why republican voters want donald trump to be president is -- he had a pretty good presidency. in fairness, he had a pretty good presidency vis-a-vis china, vis-a-vis eastern europe. china in terms of the tax, the

taxes on chinese goods coming in. >> tariffs. >> tariffs. >> sure, but there were some issues. >> yeah, but russia. russia was phony. >> i think covid he didn't get high marks for hoy he handled it? >> i think he did fine. >> he separated families at the border. he did lots of things that people really soured on. and not to mention all the toxicity of enemy of the state journalists and mobbing handicapped reporters. i mean things like that that people did tire of. >> toxicity is a different issue than electability. many republican primary voters are so pissed off at everything that they want the guys that represents disgruntlement. they want the guy who represents their grievances or their perceived grievances. even though he is a billionaire who they relate to. and i believe that he is a very, very potent candidate. and, you know, i don't think he is fit to be president, personally. i think that he stabbed the

constitution of the united states in the back. i think he put his personal ambitions above the fate of the nation. i think he is a terrible selfish person. even though for decades, he was friend of mine and i watched a lot of this stuff happening, i watched also on the other hand russia, russia, russia when they went after him for something that did not exist. and he seems to have been really scapegoated. and that is certainly the perception of republican voters. >> correct me if i'm wrong. i believe i said though you were friends for decades, january 6th was your breaking point. >> yes. >> so you will use your voice to try to prevent him from ever >> right.president again. >> but he is, as you know, a56 in the polls against a the other republican candidates. so what's your plan? >> that's -- when i said i would use all my energy and all my brainpower to deny him the

presidency, i didn't say i would be effective. i didn't say i could sway anybody. i don't know that anybody listens or heeds my advice. i'm just telling you i know him pretty well. and what he did post election was so outrageous, it was so unpatriotic, it was so anti-american, it was so selfish, so narcissistic that i believe that he has forfeited the right to be president. he is not fit character wise to be president of the united states. >> why do yothk the other gop hopefuls aret getting as much traction? >> i don't know. ron desantis, you know, who would want to hang out with him? i was just thinking that when i was watching him with jake tap areas interview. it was a great interview. desantis is like the bully guy in school going after disneyland and trans people. come on, shut up. woke, woke, woke. i'm so sick of desantis saying woke. i don't even know what woke

means anymore. the ones i like, like chris christie, he's getting what, 1, 2% in the polls. i like him. he is robust. he has told donald trump let's go out in the backyard and let's have it out. you know, he's a flamboyant guy. he was a great governor of new jersey. he was pro-life governor in a very, very blue state showing his electability if it wasn't for that damn bridgegate, i think he would have already been the presidential candidate at least. maybe president of the united states already i like hill, but the conversation, asa hutchinson is the only other one who is -- who says that this trump's machinations with january 6th and so forth are disqualifying. but asa hutchinson, former governor of arkansas, he is not going to go anywhere. no one is going to say okay, i won't vote for that guy because

he has a drawl. >> we have so much more to talk about. i do want to hear about your exit from fox as how you think fox will handle donald trump this time around. hold that thought. we're going to take a very quick break, and we're going to hear more from geraldo when we come right back.

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and we are back with geraldo rivera. so geraldo, hi. great to have you. so you exited two week ago from fox? >> has it been that long? >> i think so. it was july 4th? >> it seems like just yesterday. >> june 30th. pretty close. pretty close. >> how are you feeling? >> i feel liberated. i feel free, free at last. >> and why? why did you feel hamstrung there? >> well, you are muzzled. corporate discipline muzzles people, even if self muzzlement, if that's a word. i felt -- first of all, they denied me permission to go on

many shows over the course of my long career there. they have a very rigid, very controlling kind of discipline. >> but what were they afraid of? >> my flamboyance and saying things like i said about former president trump, you know, that he knifed the constitution in the back. when you have that as your attitude, that's the position, and you're in a conservative milieu, you know, it's pretty noxious to folks who believe a certain way. it's not my choice. i hope to devote a lot of my post career life to working with the developmentally disabled. i have lots of charity work that we do, dating back half a century to my exposes. so there is a lot of things going on. but it was a very -- it's a very rigid, very controlled atmosphere where everyone answers to management. and management doesn't allow

freewheeling. they have a message. they send the talent out to do an interview. if it's a big story, "the new york times" or this or that, they pick their spot. and they're very strategic in that regard. very disciplined. conservatives are much more disciplined than liberals. liberals are all over the place. here i can say anything i want. >> feel free. yes, you can. basically, what i heard is you started to feel they didn't have your back. they decide sided with the people who are not fact-based at fox, or sort more of the outrage machine. that fair? >> i don't -- i don't make judgment calls like that about other people's careers and where they put themselves. there are just some people there that i liked and some people there i didn't like. and some of the people i didn't like, a handful of them, there is only a handful, they had more sway than i did. i was the black sheep of the family. and when i stepped out of line,

you know, i was suspended three times in several months. >> what did you do that was so bad? >> for instance, complaining about tucker carlson when he had this outlandish theory that january 6th was staged. >> conspiracy theory. >> government operatives, the whole thing was a theatrical performance. it was total bullshit. i said it. i got suspended right there, that day. when i said of one of the cast members that he was insulting punk, i was suspended again. what about the provocation that led up to it? i don't want to complain about it. i took their money for 23 years. they did everything that they had to do in terms of the business relationship. i went to fox because of 9/11. i went to fox because a lot of people that i knew got killed on 9/11. i wanted to be a war correspondent. roger ailes, our former boss said i could be a war correspondent. >> i remember. i remember the day you started. i remember how excited roger was, and he said i hired geraldo

rivera, because when geraldo is on screen, i stop what i'm doing and i turn up the volume. i'll never forget that roger said that. it's true. you are a compelling reporter. and that's why i'm asking you this. because i think it says something larger about fox. and here's my question. did the $787 million penalty that they had to pay to dominion, that will change how they do business? will that change their relationship with facts? >> i think the $787 million, thousand, thousand, is a big i'm sorry. they really understood that what they did was really so far off the norm that they had to apologize in a way that only corporations apologize, with the money. >> will they do something differently? will they handle facts differently? >> first of all, i don't necessarily accept the premise, because i think if there are a lot of good reporters at fox. and you were one of them.

>> thank you. there are certainly reporters there. but there are also people who play loose and fast with the facts. >> i just think the embarrassment, from what happened on their january 6th -- post january 6th coverage, the embarrassment that they suffered as a corporation will and already has affected the way they present it. yes, they're still heavily opinionated in the evenings, that is true. but i think that they would never -- i would hope now say something just to get an audience. i don't think it's that that raw, their ambition anymore now that they've been really scolded in a way that corporations, they still have stockholder lawsuits. they have and whoever was the guy that was wandering around on january 6th that they said was the ringleader. >> how do you think they'll coffer donald trump this time around? do you think that they'll -- >> that's the problem. an that's the litmus test. >> i mean, at times they seem to

have soured on him. but it seems like maybe that time is over. >> well, republicans generally, republicans in power, we're watching it as people flock to trump's banner now, are ruthlessly pragmatic. all they care about is beating joe biden. all republicans generally care about is making sure that a democrat, a liberal democrat, a taxing liberal democrat is not in the white house come november of '24. it is -- i think the penalty, the scolding they got from the public really woke them up. and i hope that they go forward. you know, conservatives deserve their own scene, their own network. that's fine. they just have to be more, as you say, fact-based. they have to be more professional. they have to be less partisan. but who knows. we'll see. >> robert, great to have you here. >> i love this.

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