democratic presidential hopeful and candidate, he testified during a hearing that was focused on the federal government and censorship. but then, after going under oath, the train it fell off the tracks, promptly. cnn's fact-checker, senior reporter daniel dales is here. daniel, can he said today that he has never voiced opposition over using vaccines. listen to this moment. >> i've never been anti-vax. i have never told the public avoid vaccination. >> and yet, that seems to obviously not be true, daniel. >> both the general claim there and the specific claim there are totally untrue. he says he's never been anti-vax. we know mr. kennedy as one of america's most prominent anti-vaxxers with the use of anti vax commentary. i'll get

into that in a moment. he also said he's never told the public to avoid vaccination as an nbc news reporter -- first on it on twitter, publicly said less than two years ago that he had personally confronted strangers, just around the people he encountered, and told him not to get their babies vaccinated. listen to what kennedy said on a 2021 podcast. >> our job is to resist and to top out of everybody, if they're walking down the street, and they do this now myself, which is [inaudible] i've seen somebody on a hiking trail carrying a baby and i said [inaudible] they heard that for me. if he hears are from ten other people, maybe he won't do it. maybe he will save the child. >> of course there's a whole lot more, four years kennedy has been the country's most famous promoter of the debunked notion that there is a link between childhood vaccines and autism. he has spread all manner of misinfo about covid-19 vaccines. he even

started in recent comments, laura, that the 1918 spanish flu pandemic was not actually a flu but caused by vaccine research. of course, it wasn't, it was a flu. so look, this is a very vehement, very prominent, famous anti-vaxxer, and on the road's trying to convince people he's on an anti vaxxer. >> the information was readily available, daniel, it blows the mind how he didn't think it would be followed up. on also, just before that exchange that we just saw, rfk junior said he, quote, has never uttered a phrase that was either racist or antisemitic, unquote. what are you finding, is that true and does it hold up? >> well, i don't think it's up to me as a fact-checker to decide what's racist or antisemitic, but i can say that kennedy has made comments that jewish groups and asian groups are described as hateful. he recently claimed that covid-19 is targeted towards occasions and black people. that is a direct quote. he continued the

people who are most immune are jews and the chinese. the ceo of american jewish committee responded and said every aspect of his comments reflect some of the abhorrent antisemitic conspiracy theories throughout history and contributes to today's dangerous rise of antisemitism. groups fighting anti asian hate also described as nonsense as hateful and offensive. this, laura, was on his first remark to be forcefully denounced by jewish groups. last year, kennedy made a truly ludicrous comparison to the holocaust while making some bizarre comments about what he clean with the risk to americans of everything from vaccine passports, to 5g, to low orbit satellites. this is what he said. >> even in hitler germany, you could cross out to switzerland, you can hide in an attic like anne frank did. >> anne frank was killed, of course. she was one of 6 million voted by the 90s. kennedy was denounced by both the auschwitz museum and the u. s. holocaust museum for those comments. he apologized for

them later that week, but today, he has seemed to deny under all that he had made the comment at all. so, i don't know what to tell you. >> daniel, thank you very much for the fact checking. so illuminating. joining me now is columnist matt lewis who is also the author of the brand-new book called, filthy rich politicians,. also here, cnn political commentator karen finney, cnn opinion contributor sofia nelson, who is a former house republican and city council, and now -- homeland security and intelligence of the government of washington d. c.. well, all your reputations precede you. i love that you're all here today. listen, the fact that he was there at all has made many democrats say, what are republicans thinking? the triangle an executive sessions. they didn't want to come in the first place because of these facts, yet he is pulling still very high, not close to biden but as a democratic hopeful, it is

there. >> those numbers have been relatively consistent and i do think that a lot of that is his name. he knows that. if he wasn't a kennedy, he wouldn't have even been invited to come to the hearing today. so, let's be very clear about that. i do want to just say, just take a step back, that covid should never have been politicized ever, period, full stop. but, that is the environment that we live in. >> and we are still. >> we're still in. and people are still dying, and i think it's important to remember that. -- so outrageous about the comments he made, they're just dangerous, and for republicans to provide a platform for someone to be able to promote conspiracy, i mean he lied essentially under owed by saying he'd never said it, i considered a lie, given that we have the proof that he has said it. but, the republicans know exactly what was going to happen, and they knew that's

what he would use his platform, and frankly there is a little bit of a conspiracy between them because, our kids union knew exactly what the game was. >> this was a hearing those supposed to be about censorship. that was what they said he was there for, and the idea that he was a -- widow request to have the administration a tweet taken down about his thoughts surrounding this very issue. he was kind of saying, look, if you censor me now, you are proving the point. did they? >> look, i do think stepping back even further, i do think that this there is a larger debate that is important. i think republicans are obviously playing politics, they're trying to score cheap points. but i, think there is a deep debate and a tension between misinformation and censorship. think of it this way, on one hand, misinformation can be incredibly dangerous, people can die because of it they don't get vaccinated, and it is so much easier to spread misinformation now because of social media, there is no

gatekeepers. on the other hand, we should have a society and media that is welcoming a diverse and contrarian opinions. for example, the lab leak, which we don't know if the lab leak was true or, it's unclear, but tom cotton, a republican senator was accused of basically being conspiracy theorist when he posed that -- i think is a tension here that we're gonna have to grapple with for decades because we are in a brave new world. >> i think though, i want to pick along what daniel said, i was actually at auschwitz two weeks ago, these words aren't innocuous. it is anti-semitic, and when you blame or not blame some people for getting covid or not getting covid, you know, it may not mean anything to rfk jr., but there are people who are very sick and very demented online that pick up on these things. in a time from homeland security standpoint, we have

the highest rate of anti asian crime, crime against those of the jewish faith, those words mean something to some people. so, i know there is tension between what you can say the first amendment, and what you can say, but these are hateful words and to give him the platform like that is kind of aberrant. >> i think everything everybody said is true, however, there is politics here. the republicans are weaponizing rfk junior against president biden. why? when you look at the poll numbers, we know that this house of representatives run by kevin mccarthy these republicans are very beholden to donald trump, they are in his camp. there can be no question. if they can weaken joe biden just a little bit by using rfk jr., that amazing name, that name that carries a lot of weight with a lot of people particularly over 60 years of age, no matter how wacky he may be, or he may appear, so i think it's really about raw politics, can we can biden because biden this up in

all the polls. >> -- also his father. knowing that it talked about the idea of, listen, you're calling these conspiracy theories and paraphrasing him and telling him not a true democrat either, and i'm adhering to things that i believed in, but that is part of the step. do even doubt that he truly is running on a democratic ticket or is he kind of a red herring? >> just pick up on what sophia said, the republicans were using him to legitimize a process been pretty flawed, i think it's fair to say. >> which process? >> this weaponization committee that has been a joke this whole time. at the same time, he was using them to. he knew exactly what that platform would afford him, and he knows that in terms of this issue of trying to weaken president biden, he is participating in that. i suspect he believes that he is a democrat, i think it's very telling that his whole family,

or most of his family, have actually denounced what he has been saying. >> his wife,? right? >> she does denounce him in some areas. but others in the kennedy family, and part of that legacy have really taken great pains to distance themselves. so, i think that should say something to us. as you and i discussed before, laura, i do think is democrats we do have to take it seriously, because he certainly could create chaos in the democratic primaries. we take it seriously, at the same time, i do think in a real match of, i don't think he would win more than a few percentage points, once people are clear about what he is saying. >> i did wonder about the trend, donald trump was the first mover advantage in their public, he shows up being this very different kind of politician and basically, hijacks the republican party. the democrats, , though they really have their leaders. like, nancy pelosi has the house and line, and they

nominate joe biden this sort of mainstream kind of centrist democrat, and now, we are seeing there -- maybe it's a lagging indicator. it's not just robert kennedy junior, but there are other potential democrats who are now running-- >> an indicator of what? that this is not the match people want to see. >> i think that is true, but what i am saying is that we have now open to this can of worms where kind of contrarian, eccentric candidates are running, and it was donald trump first in the republican party, and now we are seeing the democratic party. i don't know if it's going to get traction against joe biden, but it seems to be a trend. >> that was a point i was gonna make before you made it. politicians i get rich or rich politicians, bottom line is this is a very good way for rfk jr. to not just wreak havoc but to really make a whole lot, not that he might need a lot more money, but the bottom line is this pace. misinformation and disinformation it pays. it makes you famous all over the globe. it is a stunning place

that we are in right now, and it's not good. >> he is tapping into something we've seen over the past decade, the degradation of truth, right? when a normal man or woman doesn't know up and down, if you believe in misinformation or conspiracy theories, you are not listening to the conversation right now. you are getting your news from the dark's deepest parts of the web, or other outlets that are feeding you exactly what you want to hear. it is not fact-checked. >> we are the swamp according to them. >> who wouldn't want to see laura coates? [laughter] >> you're saying the truth. >> everyone stay with, me right here, we are less than two hours away from the deadline for donald trump to respond to jack smith letter, will he? we're learning one of his advisers left the grand river abruptly today, i'm in a tell you why. plus the new theory on how the gilgo beach serial killer suspect lured his victims. we are now learning

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>> everyone, just about 90 minutes from now the deadline is up for a donald trump's legal counsel to respond to jack smith's target letter. the one where he asks him, do you plan on coming in to testify for a gland jury investigation? that is actually how he phrased it, but, spoiler alert, i wouldn't hold my breath too

long. it is unlikely that he will choose to appear before a grand jury, but stranger things have indeed happened. tonight, we are learning that one of his advisers appeared before the grand jury today, and when that advisor was asked about his interactions with trump, well trump was still in office, he left to seek counsel from his lawyer. we are back at the table right now, first of all, the clock is ticking, we know that he's been asked in this letter, the target letter, an invitation to appear before a grand jury. we're not required to give out a letter, but they have. they give the country a notice, and he of course said, you think there's any world where donald trump says, all right put me in coach, i'll testify. >> no. >> there you go. [laughter] we've had everything, coverage, she said no. >> what he will do is, he will put it out there, he will put whatever testimony we don't want to hear out on true social media, and he will fund-raise off of it, and he will make a lot of money.

>> -- the fundraising you mention is so important, sofia, because, first of all, right now as long as jacsmh isn't saying anything, trump can milk it he, can tell a story, he can alonin this process. look at these numbers, theum that he gets to, spikes that he gets from being charged, from being arraigned, this is on no one's been goes card until the last veral years. the fact of the matter i tre is now, and even more of a focus on fund raising, and wt it means for the people who are voting. they respect, maybe, they areme looking at very different things, and they are focusing on him being a kind of champion for those who support him. >> definitely. i think that we are talking about in the last segment, a lot of the things that happened in politics followed the money. whether it is people saying irresponsible things, follow the money, and then of course the politicians in my book, filthy rich

politicians, will find a way to take some of that money and put it in their personal pocket as well. that is the other side of it. money helps you win elections and take power, but more and more, first of all, it is rich people who are running for office, i think the average number of congress is like 12 times richer than the average american household. but then, once people get elected, whether it's insider trading, opening a hotel in washington d. c. -- >> as an example. [laughter] >> monuments gloss. >> a sudden -- takes two billion dollar investment. they find a way to funnel some of the money back into their pocket. so, it is just a very, dirty, swampy dare i say, existence. >> you know, it also sends the size people to stay. what might draw you there, and why you want to stay, and maybe the moral compass starts to go in different directions when it points towards your account, but you have been sounding the alarms now for a long time, even about january 6th

obviously, you were talking about this, you were warning people. what does it say to you that the fundraising is there, that this could happen and being charged, or even the prospect of being charged in the mix to money go up? >> well, he told us, this? right 2016, he can shoot someone in the middle man and his supporters would still love him. we should believe him at this point, right? there is a segment of the population that donald trump can do no wrong for. those are the individuals that support him, that stand by him, that will help fund-raise for him, and i am not a political guru, obviously, i'm a homeland security person, but there is obviously a portion of those individuals that are radicalized. they are not going to be deradicalized. they're not gonna be deradicalized for going to jail by january six, we saw one of them was going to prosecute a foregone january six and fighting, circling obama's house a couple weeks ago. these folks are out of, they are not going to give up, and he knows this. he knows his. crowd

>> might change here -- to say girl. but you know, we often hear president biden say the comment, judge me against the alternative, right? that is his commentary. then there is a moment today where lisa murkowski was asked about the prospects for a rematch between biden and trump, even in spite of all of those conversations. listen to what she had to say. >> would you support him if he decided to run? >> i'll tell you, if it is a matchup between biden and trump, i know exactly where i'll go. i would go with joe manchin. i am one who doesn't like to use my vote for the lesser of evils. i want to be proactive and who could do the job. i think manchin could do the job. well our system allow for that? that i don't know. >> all right, who's surprised? >> joe manchin is actually not running, we should say that --

from the great state of west virginia, let's just -- that. that answer, talking about, that was such a political answer, and the ties into what we're talking about the fundraising on trump's side. that radicalized base that we're talking about, they have a stranglehold on the republican party that no one in the republican party has had the courage to stand up to with any force. that answer from lisa murkowski was political calculation, you can almost see it in her head of, i don't to say anything bad about trump because i need those trumpy voters to get reelected and i don't want to say joe biden, so, i'll just put the baby and say somebody who is not actually even running and would eventually be running on a third party ticket that we don't even know where they stand. for >> -- the noble conversation. i mean chris christie, ramy, just a name to have been vocal about

their disdain for the politics -- >> yeah but they don't. count >> why don't they count? >> because they're considered hinos, nobody care what they think. we simmer cow ski susie independent, right? remember lisa murkowski had to say the right in, and do with the stuff, so she is definitely a renegade susan collins sometimes. but, the part of the conversation that you didn't hear that we didn't play was where she talked about the republicans in the caucus who are top of our saying sidebar, they didn't occur today publicly what they're saying i don't have much longer could be in this party. i think it is radicalized, i think it has gone in a direction i am no longer comfortable with. so, it is going to be interesting to mention joe manchin, which, anyways. >> where did they go next? it's not a thought independent runs, or just -- amber's -- >> it is very difficult for an independent to win as we know, in our system the way it is now. a lot of people are trying to forward parties us out on the -- there is a lot of movements, but, none of them of really caught on. voting is something we think will help in

the process, but right, now it is really hard for a third party candidate to get above what -- it after dropping on and getting in the. red -- that is -- >> after dropping out -- >> that's the best we've seen since teddy roosevelt. >> let's not forget joe sign and gary johnson who gave us three stage and, that's how hillary clinton lost, and let's talk about ralph nader in 2000, thank you, al gore loses florida, and we know the rest. so, third party candidates can absolutely be spoilers but i think part of the sport here is why won't republican leader stand up? literally, the reason that middle school children in the state of florida are going to be taught that black people that there were personal benefits to slavery for black people, because of this very radicalized faction of the republican party. you have ron desantis trying to play to, with his agenda as governor. >> we are going to go there next, the fact is going on in florida. just to bring it back

to your book, which is incredible, filthy rich politicians -- [laughter] there is no money, and all of a sudden, kevin mccarthy, becoming independent, i would suspect. >> as a republican, that is totally right. i mean, everyone kind of can tell it is a free market, everyone takes their business to the popular restaurant, or whatever. that is what it is. it is very clear if you want to get in the republican party the way you play the game. democratic party has a game too, but i would say right now, it is not as toxic. >> well we'll talk more about this, everyone matt lewis -- karin, sophia --, thank you all. there is also now a chilling development tonight in the gilgo beach serial killer involving where the suspect likely committed these human acts. plus, it is clear whose house was searched in the cold case of to pack the court's murder, and what was found, next. ♪ ♪ ♪ tv: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod.

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with comcast business, advanced security isn't just possible. it's happening. get started wih fast spees and advanced security for $49.99a month for 12 monts plus ask how to get up to a $750 prepaid card with qualifying internet. >> there it is, a disturbing developments tonight in the gilgo beach murders. a source telling cnn that investigators are operating on a theory that suspected serial killer murdered the women inside of his own home. we are told that his appearance has happened during times when his wife and his family were out of town. it suggests that he may have lured victims to his home for dates of some kind, with these very women. that would've given rex heuermann control of his environment, access to the crime scene materials. cnn's

brynn gingrass has been all over this story. take a listen. >> he's laying on his bank, he's been extremely quiet, not really talkative to staff. >> accused serial killer rex heuermann alone and under suicide watch behind bars as the investigation into his alleged killings expands. >> i think in the coming days, as we continue to gather evidence anything is possible. >> his wife of more than 27 years now filing for divorce. in a statement her attorney said, the sensitive nature of her husbands arrest is taking an emotional toll on the immediate and extended family. >> if you ask me, i do not believe that the news about the double life that he was living -- >> a week after his arrest, the investigation spans three states, authorities are searching not only his long island home, but also his office, and nearby storage facilities. two las vegas condos he purchased, and in south carolina where he owns

land. sources tell cnn that they are agents told his truck, which they say connects him to one of three murders he is charged for committing more than a decade ago. authorities are combing through evidence. >> we are looking for potential trophies, souvenirs, jewelry, and anything that can be attached to the four women, or other women that he might have been involved with. >> several departments are also reviewing cold cases to see if heuermann is connected. this, as more women are coming forward saying that they too were solicited by him. >> i had a really really bad feeling, like my gut was telling me and gets to get away from him. >> his phone logs and his dna police say are smoking gun and the case that ran cold for years. court paperwork describes how he used burner phones to taunt victims families, and research this case as recently as last month.

>> it tells me that he was concerned, trying to take a look at where we stand as an investigative team, do we have someone we may be -- looking at. i'm sure that would have probably scared him. >> the 59-year-old new york city architect has pleaded not guilty, but a friend of one of the victims believes that police got it right. >> it just makes me mad because he is such a big monster. >> authorities say, after heuermann's arrest, all he did was ask for an attorney. he was very quiet, the ride with authority to and from manhattan the jail he was taken which is about an hour and a half, he has been very quiet in his cell as well, not accepting any visitors at all. it is very stark difference from what his attorney said happened after he was presented with the charges in the case where he said he was distraught. brynn gingrass, cnn, new york. >> it is unbelievable to think about that case and how it has

now been reopened, officially. the question, as well is, are we now closer to finding out who killed tupac shakur? there are new details tonight on the search warrant executed this week at a home in nevada, of all places, property records show the house belonged to the wife of doing dwayne keith davis. also known as keavy de. he is a self proclaimed witness to the shooting. we are told, items that were seized, including a copy of his memoir about gang glaze. i want to bring in cnn anchor is sara sidner, sara, it is so good to see you tonight. las vegas police searched a home in henderson, nevada this very week, what have they found? >> this is the search warrant, i pointed out to, you can see what it looks like, and there are quite a few pages, and what it details a lot of electronics, computers, hard drives, that have been taken from that home. as well as a couple of other things that sort of peak your interest. one of them is is a

vibe magazine that has tupac on the cover. there is quite a few of those, by the way. there was also copy of a book called compton street legends, and a few other things like, black to containing photographs and a documentary. so, it is interesting sort of look through what is in here. the thing that i think about the most is there is a name in this, and many of these items belonging to him according to police. the name is dwayne keith davis, or -- as you said there. he has previously said in, the time when all this happened back in september of 1996 that he witnessed the, tupac's murder, and he is the uncle of orlando anderson who was initially a main subject of the case but that he didn't do it, and he was never. charge so, it is really interesting to note that initially he said

that he witnessed this, but all these years later -- 27 years later since the murder of tupac, there is still no suspect that has been named. now, we are seeing the police have certainly not closed this case. >> i can't believe it's been 27 years, first of all. thinking about when he was killed and a few months later of course, biggie smalls, and the timing of all of this and all of the conspiracies that have circulated, all of the interest in this. i want to actually go back to around that time, back in 1998, a couple years after he was killed. it was an interview from bet with this man, dwayne keith davis, known as keefe e. d.. listen to this. >> we pulled up, hours in the -- i was in the front seat. happy to see you, my friend. >> look so greasy too. >> he looks right at you.

[sound of gunfire] you said the shots came from the back. big dre, orlando. who shot tupac? >> [inaudible] it just came from the backstreet, bro. >> what can you tell us from this guy dwayne davis and what he knows, just watching that. >> i mean he, says he witnessed it. he clearly was not going to name someone if he did see that person. he is also the uncle of the person who was the main suspect for a while who was never charged, and who has not admitted to doing this in any way shape or form. we do also know that on that day, three hours before tupac shakur was murdered, he was in a fight inside the mgm grand, and there is videotape of that fight and the person he is fighting with ends up, he's on the ground, he's kicking him. is orlando, which is the nephew of keefe e

d. so, there is a lot of connections here, and police have clearly not stopped their search for tupac's murder. >> decades later, sarah sidner thank you so much, and please be sure to watch sarah sidner in the next hour. she is next up, and she has an interview with tupac's brother, that is going to be live, everyone at 11:30 pm tonight. stay tuned for sara sidner, and that particular interview as well. everyone -- schools in florida, you heard a little bit earlier in the show, they want to teach kids that slavery had some personal benefits. i'll speak with a teacher there, next. plus on the eve of the barbie oppenheimer, they're calling at the barbie himars showdown at the movies, hear matt damon's answer to this question. >> can i come to your house? >> was the u.s. right, or wrong to drop the bomb on --? hiroshima. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'll be taking meetings

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now have a new set of standards when it comes to teaching black history. the states board of education unanimously approving the controversial new curriculum. that, by the way, includes a lesson which teaches that slavery could have offered, and i am quoting here, a personal benefit, unquote. we are talking about a betterment to the enslaved people. critics are now slamming these new standards as a big step backward. i want to bring in carole cleaver, a middle school teacher in florida, who has a masters degree in african american studies. carroll, thank you for being with us tonight. this is, for many people, unbelievable, to think that there would be now a part of instructions that those who have been enslaved personally benefited from it. what is this about? is that really what's being taught or will be top?

>> well, it's been a strain that was added to our current standards that was adopted yesterday by the state's board of education. and so, i assume that yes, that is what they would like us to teach, that -- my problem with it, of course, is that the skills are not inherently learned during slavery. slavery is not to be credited for their skills, of course. it seems that's what was expected to impart on the children. >> just so we are clear. when you talk about personal benefits that they're supposed to instruct, and this is part of the new standards that include, and this is a document from the florida department of education website -- and it says that instruction includes how slaves developed skills, which in some instances, could be applied for their personal benefit. how -- do you expect to be able to teach this, a, with a straight face, and looking at

students who are expecting to believe this -- and respect you in the end? >> right. well, i'm gonna be honest and say i just don't think that we will be able to teach that. it just is not true. the truth is really that enslaved people had their labor exploited. and they were being held captive. there was nothing that was benefiting them from their labor. all people, of course, amassed a set of skills during their lifetime that -- to suggest that these skills are especially developed because they were enslaved is particularly insulting, especially to the african american kids that i have in my class right now. >> and to anyone, frankly, who would want to be a student of actual history. but i wonder if you refuse to teach it, will you be punished? do you know what the consequence might be, have they laid that out? >> well, that's a particularly

nefarious thing here. it hasn't been laid out specifically. we've been told that our licenses could be in threat if we don't follow the exact letter of the standards, if we are caught the teaching things that are not explicitly stated, if we have, of course, books on our shelves that anyone disagrees with us having on the shelves. so, right now, there is certainly a culture of fear in florida classrooms, where teachers are afraid that if they step out of line, just a little bit, not just teachers, but administrators as well, if they step out of line just a little bit, that the consequences could be losing your professional license. and so, it's going to be a very difficult year. it is confusing to know exactly how to move forward. >> i mean, this all comes from this mind-boggling concept, to me, that you are not supposed to teach history if it could

make somebody feel badly about what has happened. i mean, the idea, that is just a mind-boggling concept to me that it doesn't seem to be in line with reality of how you teach any subject that is a difficult, and requires you to be a part of a global world at some point. carol cleaver, thank you so much for being here. and i don't know if i should wish you luck, or courage, or frankly, just the ability that may be sane or mines will prevail and how we teach. >> yes, i will just keep teaching with fidelity. i'm going to keep teaching the truth to these children and respecting them the best i can. >> how radical in 2023! carol, thank you so much for being here. >> absolutely, thank you. >> well, now, for a question that maybe looks at history and what would you do. the question is, was the united states right or wrong to have

dropped the bomb on hiroshima? chris wallace asked that question of matt damon to see how he answered. as the oppenheimer movie puts nukes in a whole new spotlight. ♪ ♪ ♪ (energetic music plays) there he is! it's right there! ♪ oh, he's straight ahead. he's straight ahead. straight ahead. go go go. ♪ cover more ground in the kia sportage turbo-hybrid. kia. movement that inspires. eva's about to learn her fear of missing out leads to overeating. i totally eat stuff to not miss out.

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out, oppenheimer, about the scientists who led the effort to create the first atomic bomb. you play, general leslie grobes who is the military leader of the manhattan project. why did you want to play this role. >> the director chris nolan is one of the best directors to ever live, and he makes extraordinary movies. it plays like a thriller, like you're on the edge of your seat the entire. time >> anyone who deals with the subject, and i wrote a book, and you are now in this movie, i think ends up having to deal with the central question. was the u.s. right or wrong to drop the bomb on hiroshima? where do you come down on that? >> that is such an impossible question. i remember talking to ben affleck's grandfather was marine and he said, when we heard about the bomb dropped, we cheered. he said, this is 50 years later he's telling me, i

live with the fact that -- but this is what they are telling us. they were going to fight until the last man and that we were going to -- covered in your book, 250,000 and the million americans. >> you read my book? >> i did read it. >> it's called countdown 1945, and it's available on amazon. >> it really is, not to be shamelessly pumping your book, but it really is great. what would you have done? i probably would have had a head of gray hair, presidents hair goes white, you know. it's funny because when you look at it, you think there's already one choice to make, but you look at the people who made that choice, i mean i don't think grows ever lost a night of sleep, he fulfilled his mission to and -- that oppenheimer, and a lot of the other scientists, once they went through the tests they, started going oh my god, and it

was like a shock wave going through them. >> i mean, that is so fascinating, to think about that. what a difficult question. and you can see the way that this movie might be bringing out the conundrum and grappling with that. but just think about the real world implications when we look at what we have done as a human race and our military endeavors and beyond. the hindsight, unbelievable. >> look, one of the things that i think comes out in the real story, and i have also seen the movie, oppenheimer, is the technology leads us. in the end, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. and when it became possible, in the run up to and then during world war ii to split the adam, it was going to happen. and there was an understanding that there was a super weapon, and originally, roosevelt was doing it because there was a lot of co-opt that the nazis

we're trying to create, and a lot of top scientists in germany were trying to create a nuclear weapon, and atomic bomb. and they are certainly didn't want the nazis to get to it before they did. and this deep political and moral question, on the one hand, are you gonna drop a bomb on the city, and tens of thousands of innocent civilians are gonna be killed? on the other hand, if you don't drop the bomb, you're gonna invade, and probably more people are gonna die, and the war would have gone on for another year and have. so, it's one of the great political and moral conundrums of our time. >> chris wallace, it is terrifying to think how much this resonates today. but also, i am fascinated that matt damon read your book. i love it, chris wallace! thank you so much. >> and it was a shameless plug there. i'm a little embarrassed about that. >> that's what you should do, chris wallace. i love it all! thank you so much. and you can see more of chris's interview with matt damon, this friday, on who is talking to chris wallace.

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