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public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i am fareed zakaria. today, a special program from aspen, colorado. first, i sit down with the secretary of state antony blinken. i ask him about america's standing in the world and its biggest challenges abroad. rush. >> in terms of what russia sought to achieve, they've already failed and they've already lost. >> and china. then an exclusive interview with ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy. we talk about the counteroffensive. is it as slow going as it seems? and why? and what does kyiv need from the west to speed it up? >> but first, here's my take. when i speak to people about right-wing populism these days i notice that many tend to believe

that it's old news. populist leaders capture the world's attention in 2016 with the brexit referendum and later that deal with donald trump's election victory. now seven years later, many seem to feel its past its prime. trump was defeated in 2020 and was under indictment and brexit has been a messy failure and a majority of britons now regret that it passed and while it's true that some populist heros and causes have been battered, the core appeal of these movements persists and has actually gained ground in recent months. consider spain which was one of those countries long considered immune to right-wing populism because, like germany, spain once suffered under a right-wing autocracy. the conservative party vox suffered a decade ago was once seen as too extreme to make inroads into the political system. today it is the country's third largest party.

in may, it doubled its vote share in regional and local elections and now governs in many places. in this weekend's lech it is likely to continue to make gains. in germany itself the alternative for germany once seen as taboo has won back-to-back local elections in the country's east. nationwide, it is now polling in second place, roughly tied with the social democrats, germany's main leftist party. in italy, the birthplace of fascism. georgia meloni has been serving as prime minister since october, she continues to praise the momento sociale italiano to which she once belonged. sweder is seeing far-right parties that are gaining strength in political power. the dutch political system now

has several populist parties, some brand new and the tensions produced by their rise recently led to the resignation of the country's longest-serving prime minister. in some polls they show lepen winning the election. >> russia's war on ukraine and the sanctions against russia have impacted europe more severely than virtually any other part of the world. the continent has been forced to abandon its addiction on cheap, russian energy and find alternatives more costly and the rest of it strayed with russia has also collapsed and meanwhile, cheap energy and cheap subsidies and a better regulatory environment are making some companies move their factories to, in, but it's not really about economics. spain's economy is healthy. the country grew at 5.5% last

year and its inflation rate is among the low of the in the eurozone, but that growth is varied and there are places like ara gon and spain's ohio that has left people feeling dispossessed. regions like aragon exist all over europe and they span frustration with the europee's elites. they have worried about the price that they are paying for a conflict that they think doesn't directly threaten them especially since that is what many populist leaders tell them. if i had to point to one issue, however, it is the one that has always been at the heart of the rise of modern far-right populism. immigration. everywhere you look you see the fears of uncontrolled immigration have produced political rewards for the so-called anti-globalists. covid destabilized many

develop developing countries which exacerbated poverty and the ukraine war has had a once in a lifetime movement out of the country on one side of the war while the brutal crackdown in venezuela has left to one of similar magnitude on the other side of the earth. climate change adds to the toxic group. when you put it all together you end up with a historic movement of people across the world. global leaders are struggling to solve the problem. the biden administration has taken several measures to address the crisis at the border and as a result the flow of migrants in the u.s. in recent months has slowed considerably. it's working with other governments in the hemisphere to tackle what is driving out migration. rishi sunak is trying to forge a new asylum policy that would move illegal asylum seekers to rwanda or elsewhere for evaluate

gsz. prime minister kyriakos in greece has pledged to extend an existing war between his country and turkey by more than 100 kilometers over the next few years to tamp down illegal border crossings, but i worry that as the pressures for migration increase the rhetoric from the right will get louder and noisier. donald trump is well aware that hostility to immigration was his ticket to the white house in 2016, and at some point as the demagogues raised their rhetoric and scare more people, the center will not hold. go to cnn.com/fareed for a link to my wishashington post column this week and let's get started. ♪ ♪ my first guest today is america's diplomat in cheap,

antony blinken. the biggest crisis during his tenure as secretary of state has been russia's invasion of ukraine. blinken has been deeply involved in holding allies together and maintaining close contact with the ukrainians. we met on the sidelines of the aspen security forum on saturday. >> mr. secretary, good to have you on. >> good to be with you, fareed. >> give us a sense of what is going on in the counteroffensive that ukraine is attempting with russia. so far, the reports seem to be it is very slow and very tough going. >> first, fareed, put this in perspective, in terms of what russia sought to achieve, they've already failed and they've already lost and the objective was to erase ukraine from the map and that failed a long time ago. now ukraine is in a battle to get back more of the land that russia seized from it.

it's already tan back about 50% than what was seized and now they're in a hard fight to take back more. these are still relatively early days of the counter ox fencive and it is tough and russia has put in place strong defenses, but i'm convinced that with the equipment and support they received now from more than 50 countries, with the training that their forces got and many of the forces who have gotten that training have not yet been put fully into this fight and maybe more than anything else, with the fact that unlike the russians, the ukrainians are fighting for their land, for their future, for their country and their freedom and it will not play out over the next week or two and we're still looking out at several months. >> so you look at what ukrainians are up against and the minefields and trenches and russian artillery, one of the reasons that it's proving so difficult is that they have no air power, if the u.s. army were to do this, the united states

would have massive air power, lots of bombing, clear the way and make it possible for the troops to then move forward. why not give the ukrainians the f-16s that they are asking for because that will make this counteroffensive much more effective? >> every step along the way, in pack, going back before the russian aggression, when we saw the storm rising and we made sure going back to labor day before the war, christmas before the war that they started to get their hands the equipment they would need if they moved forward and javelins and stingers and they were able to repel the attack, as gainst kyiv and ever step along the way we've worked to get them what they need when they need it and it's not just the equipment itself. it's the training. it's the maintenance and the believi ability to use it in combined operations and all of that takes time. if a decision were made to actually move forward on the

f-16s tomorrow it would be months and months before they were actually operational. >> why not make the decision so that they can get them? >> so this is what we're working on now, because as i said, it's not enough to give them f-16s. they have to be trinned and they're moving forward with a number of countries and all of that is happening, but i'm not a military expert. i think you've heard chairman milley, lloyd austin, the secretary of state of the defense speak to this. we believe that what they have and what they've been trained on is what they need to be effective including dealing with the russian lines, but it is hard going. >> they feel differently. >> they feel differently, they say there's a pattern here. every time we asked for something you don't have the training for it and from himars to cluster bombs, eventually we get it, but we get it late and why not have given it to us earlier if you're trying to make a difference on the battlefield? >> so if i were in the shoes of our ukrainian friends and

partners i would probably be saying exactly the same thing, and president zelenskyy has been extraordinary as a leader, and in trying to galvanize the international community along with us to provide what they need, but the other thing is this. there are 50-some-odd countries in the support of ukraine. lloyd austin has been leading this process on the military side and different countries do different things at different times. for example, we have certain munitions that we provided to the ukrainians including the himars. other countries that provided some munitions that have the longer range because as the russians move back the command and control and that as this they move back the supply depots and out of range, the munitions that other countries are providing us as part of an organized coalition, they've had significant success. our leaders are using the best expertise possible and what it is to be, how effect ektively

can they use it? >> that will tp ask the process will be -- >> will, look, i believe that they will and the important focus is on making sure that when they do they're properly rained and they're able to maintain the planes and use them in a smart way. >> do you think it could be part of the russian strategy to try to wait for the election of 2024, hope that donald trump comes into the white house and they can cut a deal with him? >> everything we put in motion and many other countries are taking a lead role in. 2458d happen in any one of the countries and there is a long-term program in place -- >> the u.s. is providing 75%. >> if you look at the burden sharing on this between the united states and europe and other partners, japan and others it's actually quite remarkable. other countries have stepped up in ways that we haven't seen

before. on the security size we're the number one provider, but others have done a lot, but if you look as well on the economic side, the ability to make sure that ukraine has direct budgetary support and more is actually coming from europe and others than from us, the humanitarian assistance and the refugees who have been housed throughout europe and are able to work send their kids to school. all of that collectively has been a remarkable demonstration of countries coming together and assuming their responsibilities. >> next on "gps" when we come back i ask secretary blinken about the other big challenge facing the united states, china. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ the first time you connected your godaddy website

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himself. the state department said the two sides had candid, substantive and constructive discussions which is a way of saying there were no diplomatic breakthroughs. so what is the state of the u.s.-china relationship? more now of my interview with antony blinken. >> mr. secretary, when i travel around the world, particularly when i talk to asian diplomats i get a message about u.s.-china relations which is they're wondering where this is going, whether there is now a kind of an ongoing ratchet effect, a tit for tat, the united states puts certain kinds of restrictions on china and china will then respond. is there a possible stable equilibrium that we are arriving at? as one diplomat said to me what i'm trying to understand from the americans is are they done or will this just continue and continue? >> fareed, two things.

first, we are working to put some stability in the relationship to put a floor under the relationship, to make sure that the competition that we're in doesn't veer into conflict which would not be in our interest, their interest or anyone else's and that starts with strengthen our lines of communication. talking, engaging. working through as best we can our profound differences and being clear about them so they're not misunderstandings of intent and at the same time looking to see if there are areas where we can cooperate. there's a clear demand signal that i'm hearing around the world everywhere i go that each of us, the united states and china will manage this relationship and that has an impact not just on us, but on countries around the world and that's exactly what we're doing and i think china's heard that demand signal, as well. so i had hours of conversation with my chinese counterparts when i was in beijing, and janet yellen, the treasury secretary was there and john kerry was there and jake sullivan has been

engaged and all of this is a process of trying to at least put some stability into this, and to see if we can be very clear both about our differences and where we can cooperate. we have been very clear, and i was very clear with my chinese counterparts. we will continue to do and say things that china will not like just as they're going to continue to look and say things we won't like. the test for us is whether we can manage our way through that and to make sure that we can sustain these lines of communication and we continue to talk and that we work on, as i said, both dealing with the differences and seeing that we can cooperate. that's the way we're approaching it and that's the responsible thing to do. >> we're talking and there's no evidence on climate and nuclear arms -- >> it starts with talking. we weren't doing a lot of talking before. now we are. we have different groups that are engaged and about to engage on discreet issues that are problems in the relationship

where i believe we can, i think, get to a resolution. at the same time there are a number of areas where it's clearly in our interest to see if we can find ways to cooperate. we're starting to talk about that. now, these are early days. the proof will be in the results, but my own sense is that there's a recognition that if we're each going to play the game of holding each other to sort of, you know, clearing the field, erasing the board before we do anything we'll never get anywhere and the demand signal on them to engage responsibly is strong, it's clear, it's loud from around the world. >> one of the most sensitive issues, of course, is the military side. nuclear weapons, taiwan, and it sounds like there won't be much here, because we can't have -- henry kissinger, why not lift the sanctions so that you can have straightforward, military

to military talks to try and alleviate some of these tensions? >> they don't prevent the minister from engaging so there's no practical impediment and it is a political decision in effect for china to decide whether or not he should be engaged. >> would you engage with somebody if you were -- >> it's something that each system, each country has to decide for itself. we've made very clear that we think it's a responsibility to have these military to military contacts and to have this dialogue especially to avoid any miscalculations and any misperceptions of what we're each doing. so we'll see where china comes out on this. >> but the u.s. is not going to lift sanctions? >> all i can tell you is we believe that this part of the conversation is important. it would be good to resume it and china has to decide if it's prepared to do it. >> let me ask you about iran and

the president biden campaign said he would be back in the iran deal and you did not do that. you tried to search for a better deal and and iran is days away from the capacity to enrich which puts it on a path to weaponize and the potential to weaponize. you used to criticize donald trump for leaving iran that close, isn't it a fair criticism of you and your administration? you have managed to do anything to shorten that? >> fareed, first, it was a terrible mistake to pull out of that agreement because we had iran's nuclear program in the box and it's now, you're absolutely right, gotten out of that box and why not have gotten back into it and that's exactly what we had to do and woe e wor intensely and china and russia, as well to see if we can get back into mutual compliance with the nuclear deal. >> to be fair, we asked for new

conditions. we fundamentally, of course, there have been some deve developments and changes from the time we got out of the deal and fundamentally what we tried to do is get back to the existing agreement with modest modifications and an agreement was on the table. iran either couldn't or wouldn't say yes. we're not about to take any deal. of course, it has to meet our security objectives. it has to meet our interests. so we made a very good faith effort to get back into compliance with them and they couldn't or wouldn't do it. we are now in a place when we're not talking about a nuclear agreement. we are very clear and making it known to them they need to take actions to de-escalate our relationship on a whole variety of front asks we'll look to see if they do that. maybe we'll have an environment where we can get back into a conversation about their nuclear program. right now we're not in it, but

of course, we're not standing around doing nothing. we are continuing to work out, to develop and to flush out every possible option for dealing with the problem if it asserts itself. keep in mind that the deal was designed around is one critical piece. weaponization, actually having an explosive device is another. to the best of our judgment of that of many others, have not pursued that in a number of years and these two things came together and then it would be an even more urgent problem and we're having to come across a whole series of lines and to mack sure we have the a appropriate pressure to work on a nuclear deal. we believe that diplomacy is the best way to solve this problem that compared to all of the other options it's the one that can produce the most sustainable result, but that doesn't mean

that the other options are there and if necessary we won't resort to them. >> meanwhile, are you trying to restrain prime minister netanyahu from launching some kind of military intervention? >> we are in very close contact with israel just as we are with a number of other countries that are deeply concerned about iran's nuclear program as well as many other destabilizing activities in the region. countries have to make their own decisions about their national interests and the national security. we obviously share views, save information and seek to work together would have to help us with the national security. >> mr. secretary, thank you for being on. >> thanks. great to be here. >> next, ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy. we will be back after this break with my exclusive interview from the aspen security forum. re cas. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack.

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we were in colorado this week for the annual aspen security forum, a gathering of top officials, academics, think tankers and others in the forum of foreign policy and national security. i had the opportunity to talk to ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy from the stage there. i first wanted to get his assessment of his nation's counteroffensive. >> thank you so much for doing this, mr. president. we know you have many, many things to deal with, and we appreciate your taking time out of your schedule. we've known each other for a while, and so i think i will begin with a very frank question which is on everyone's mind. the ukrainian counteroffensive seems to be going more slowly and is -- has many more difficulties than people might have anticipated.

can you tell us, from your perspective, why you think these difficulties are -- why do you face these difficulties and what do you need to try to overcome them? >> translator: thank you for the question. really it is a relevant one. i would just like to draw your attention to the change of rhetorics worldwide and now we are discussing the counteroffensive in ukraine. ukraine is not backtracking, but progressively liberates its territories which is very important. we did have plans to start it in spain, but we didn't because, frankly, we had not enough munitions and armament and not proper h

properly in these weapons and still more that the training missions were held outside ukraine and still we started and this is important and because we started, it can be sad and it will be a shared truth understood by all of the, perts that it provided russia with time to mine our land and build several lines of defense, and definitely there had to be more time than they needed and they built more of those lines and really, they had a lot of mines in our trails. because of that there were slower counter offensive and because of that i didn't want to lose servicemen and equipment because of that. yes, they do understand that it is always better to see victory come sooner. this is what we also want, but the question is the price of this victory.

so let us not throw people under tanks literally. let us plan our counteroffensive as our analysts and our intelligence suggests and some of our residential areas have been liberated already, so i do believe in our victory. >> president zelenskyy, i wonder what you can tell us about what is going on in the russian army. your troops are encountering them, and i'm wondering given what happened in russia in the last few weeks, do you notice that the wagner forces are not confronting you on the battlefield or are they back? is there a change in russian morale? are you noticing something about what the russian army as a consequence of the prigozhin attempted mutiny?

>> translator: i think we can understand what is happening to the strength of the russian army or the lack of motivation. when we see what is happening to the russian society. something like that has been happening on the battlefield. they're demotivated. you can see putin lost his power and the steps made by prigozhin clearly attest to that. the same is happening in the army and with their citizens. they don't have freedom and because of that they are demotivated to the most. they don't see victories in civil life, in military activities, and even those who support this policy of war and aggression of president putin.

i think this percentage is going down. we did analyze the steps by prigozhin. we talked about that with partners, and i would say 40% to 45% of the russian regions in principle, supported their steps and the rhetoric of prigozhin in spite of him being a representative of terrorists or even the leader of terrorists themselves, you can still see that even in that there is a split in the society. there is no unity in russia, and this is why we need to act. >> next on "gps," ukraine claimed responsibility for a fresh attack on a bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. that is very important to russia's execution of this war. i'll ask president zelenskyy

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wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out. so why not check like i did for my small business? take the first step to see if your small business qualifies for the erc. >> it's been a week full of news out of russia and ukraine. on monday, russia announced that it would pull out of a grain deal that allowed ukraine to export its main crops to much of the world. it came hours after a series of explosions hit the kerch bridge linking russia to crimea. russia denied the decision was

related to the attack. it is the only connector between the two so it is a crucial piece of infrastructure for russia. ukraine took responsibility for the attack. after ward russia bombarded major ukrainian cities along the black sea. more now of my interview with president zelenskyy. >> is it a short-term objective of yours to destroy that bridge completely, and do you believe that you will be able to reclaim all crimea as part of this counteroffensive? >> translator: the objective is to reclaim the whole of crimea because it is our sovereign territory. this is not just a logistical road. this is the road used to feed the war with ammunition, and this has been done on a daily

basis, and it militarizes the crimean peninsula. for us, this is understandably an enemy facility built outside the law, outside the international laws and all applicable norms so understandably, this is our objective. and any objective, any target that is bringing war has to be realized. >> in retaliation, it seems the russians have pulled out of the grain agreement and they are bombing granerys in odesa. it is becoming much harder to send and sell ukrainian agricultural products on world markets. is there any solution? have you found any way to get ukrainian grain out now that the russians have pulled out of the grain deal?

>> first of all, i think it would be an understatement to prepare those situations. these were artificially tied information by the russian federation. let me explain it to you. from the beginning of the signing of these agreements russia would want something regularly, and there were r vessels idling at sea and some would last for two or three weeks, up to 30 vessels, sitting there unable to either exit or exit our ports. russia need everything to slow down the process and artificially dump the prizes on the grains market. much of the same way as they did with energy sources.

nothing new for us here. later on they took this situation around their crimean bridge using it just as an example, believe me, if you follow the public messages you will clearly see it has been a scheduled approach. if not the crimean bridge, they would find another reason to do it. this is the meaning of them. in spite of that, we do look for ways we talked to the u.n. secretary-general antonio guterres right before this meeting with you i had a talk with president erdogan to discuss the crisis. we do see certain ways of doing out of it and if they succeed and if he is even stronger, i think everything will check

okay. anyway, everyone has to remember the black sea is the sea of all the nations of ours. this is not the sea of the russian federation. that is ukraine, turkey, romania, bulgaria, and we are talking to all of the countries in the black sea region, and we have very substantial, pragmatic relations and humane and re regulations and we have regulations with everyone but russia because they think this is their own. >> i want to thank president zelenskyy for appearing on this program. next on "gps," i think it's pretty clear by now that it's not the best idea to let current versions of artificial intelligence write your term paper or your legal brief. so why in the world would anyone consider letting it decide

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and now for the last look. imagine a world where a highly intelligent computer in command of lethal force trains its destructive sites on its own creators, humans.

yes, this is the premise of terminator franchise. but some version of it may not be as farfetched as you think. in may, colonel tucker hamilton who heads a.i. testing described a situation in which an a.i. drone was trained. when the human operator tried to stop an attack, the drone seeing the operator as an impediment to its mission, killed the operator. in other words, the quintessential scenario of artificial intelligence run amuck had actually happened in this war game. later, hamilton withdrew his comments saying he misspoke and he was describing a hypothetical scenario. the air force said his remarks were taken out of context. it should be noted whatever happened, no actual human was

killed. last month, when i interviewed jeffrey hinton, the so-called godfather of ai, would left his job at google so that he could speak out about the risks that ai poses, i asked him about this episode. he told me that the scenario that hamilton outlined was very plausible. there is talk lately about advances in ai leading to a dystopian future and with some warning of the potential to lead to human extinction. this might seem farfetched but we neglect the fact that artificial intelligence is already on the battlefield and it could have dramatic consequences. look at the war in ukraine. both sides are using drones to spot enemy targets and drop munitions. which would be enhanced mightily by ai. south korea has robots which could detect the enemy coming over the border and even fire. and in 2020 israel is believed to have used a remote controlled

ai-boosted machine gun to kill an iran nuclear physicist. humans still oversee the technologies but weapons will only become more autonomous in the future. in 2021, the pentagon had at least 685 ai-related projects under way. the u.s. navy is working on a program that could allow thousands drones controlled by a single human operator to be flown in a swarm, overwhelming enemy targets. china, russia and turkey are all among those developing the same technology. and russia said it has begun to manufacture a nuclear submarine which it said could navigate ocean peaks and valleys and steer clear of missile defenses autonomously. but most scary is the potential use in making decisions about attacks.

automated decision-making might seem tempting writes michael clair of hampshire college because drones and satellites have given us a proliferation of data more than a human can distill in minutes, ai will be used to filter those reams of data and highlight possible decisions that a leader could take, almost like an adviser. but ai could absorb all of that data and react to to instancely. ross anderson outlined a terrifying possibility in the atlantic in an article entitled "never give ai the nuclear codes" and that the u.s. should consider automating the response to a nuclear attack. in order to understand why anyone would want this, remember when the cold war began, the primary nuclear delivery system was the bomber plane like the one that dropped bombs over japan.

the u.s. had built up enough radar stations that they would be alerted of an attack with about an hour's notice. then both russia and the u.s. began using the intercontinental ballistic missile, icbm, which could travel across the northern hemisphere in 30 minutes. now the president would have a mere half hour to figure out what to do as a nuclear warhead approached the united states. nuclear submarines cut that response time in half yet again. and new technology would cut it further. so very soon a u.s. president could have mere minutes to decide what do in the event of a nuclear attack. ai could instantly evaluate an attack and trigger a response, but should it? once a better military capability exists, it is usually used. it will take active leadership

to exercise restraint and would also take agreements with other countries which might or might not adhere to those agreements and that means we might want to use ai anyway so as not to be at a disadvantage. you could see why this is a worrying development. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. u cash? like i wouldn't cashback? cashbacking by the basket, i see you. ugh. i dreamt you didn't cashback this flight. oh good. if you're buying it, flying it, or wining n' dining it, then you gotta be cashbacking it. come on now. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. when migraine strikes, you're faced with a choice. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating? or push through the pain and symptoms? with ubrelvy, there's another option. one dose works fast to eliminate migraine pain. treat it anytime, anywhere without worrying where you are or if it's too late.

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subway's now slicing their meats fresh. that's why subway's proffered by this champ. and this future champ. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. he's cocky for a nineteen year old. hello everyone. thank you for joining me this sunday. i'm fredicka whitfield. we begin in ukraine where russian forces are once more launching punishing attacks on the port