>> thank you so much for joining me tonight. cnn prime time with abby philip starts right now with a lot of news, abby. >> thank you, kaitlan collins. good evening, everyone, i am

abby philip. welcome to a special edition of cnn prime time -- primetime. -- against the former president in the classified documents case. now, you will recall he is has already been indicted along with one of his other aides, and now another aide is now a defendant being charged as well. here is what they are accused of doing, according to the superseding indictment. trump ordered that his aides delete mar-a-lago surveillance video server -- now, keep in mind, trump's aides are accused of moving boxes of classified materials all over the property to hide them from investigators, and even from his own lawyers. so, that is the new obstruction part of this indictment. in addition to that, jack smith's team now confirms that trump indeed possessed a top

secret plan to attack iran. and he did show it to people who did not have the security clearance necessary to see it. by alleging this, prosecutors are calling one of trump's defense is a lie. >> who is no document. that was a massive amount of papers and everything else, talking about iran and other things, and it may have been held up or it not, but that was not a document. i didn't have any document per se. there was nothing to declassify. these were newspaper stories, magazine stories, and articles. >> i'm just -- >> so, knowing what we know from this indictment, remember trump's own words here. >> in my administration, i am going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. >> [applause] -- >> no one will be above the law. one of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules, and to enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified

information. we also need the best protection of classified information. >> and if all of that isn't enough for one day, trump's lawyers also met with the special counsel today in a completely separate case. the one that is focused on his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. it appears an indictment there is likely as well, and the lawyers made a last-ditch plea to jack smith to avoid this. we will get to that in just a moment, but let's start first with the new charges in the mar-a-lago case. with us now is paula reid. paula, this is really extraordinary. in some ways, we've been talking to lawyers for weeks, and many of them did not necessarily expect more coming for trump in particular. but, not only is it more, but so much more detail here as well. >> that's right. not only new charges, but also a new codefendant. here they are adding a one count of willful retention of national defense information

and then two additional accounts counts of obstruction, as these prosecutors allege that the former president and two of his employees tried to destroy surveillance footage. now, that surveillance footage has really been at the center of this investigation. not only as evidence from prosecutors as they try to piece together where these boxes containing classified information moved throughout the property. but we also know they have been pressing witnesses about whether anyone tried to prevent them from obtaining the surveillance footage, or if anyone tried to destroy it. but it was interesting, when we got the first indictment that didn't show up. and we know that they have continued this investigation down in florida. so, now we are seeing it all come together in the superseding indictment. also notable that, according to prosecutors, the two trump employees allegedly wanted to destroy the surveillance because, quote, the boss wanted it deleted, the boss, of course,

being former president trump. one of the big outstanding questions in this investigation is the extent to which the former president was directing any of this alleged conduct. but, of course, also getting a new codefendant, in addition to trump's longtime aide, walt nauta, which charged in the first indictment, there they are now also charging another mar-a-lago employee, carlos de oliveira. he is a maintenance worker at mar-a-lago, and he has been seen on surveillance footage moving boxes with walt nauta. and it's been a question, abby philip, about whether he would be charged. today, we got our answer. >> paula, tell us what we know now about this third codefendant, carlos de oliveira. he is head of maintenance at mar-a-lago. how did he get wrapped up in all this? >> the boss wanted something done, right? what is so unique about this investigation is that, through our reporting, we have seen that pretty much every single employee at mar-a-lago has had to talk with special counsel

investigators at one point. but there were a few who really stood out to us as possibly having criminal exposure, walt nauta being the first. we know he was pressed to flip and he did not do that. and here we have carlos de oliveira. as you noted, his job is in maintenance. but he came to our attention because we learned that he was also seen on the surveillance footage moving boxes with walt nauta. now, this surveillance footage was handed over to investigators, and one particular piece of surveillance footage that stood out is when he helped nauta move boxes out of a storage closet right before one of trump's lawyers was searching that same closet for classified materials. now, we know that carlos has spoken with investigators, we also know that his phone was seized. now, he has a lawyer, like many of the witnesses in this case, who is paid by trump affiliated political action committee. his lawyer had no comment on these charges, but they are expected in court for an initial appearance next week.

>> we'll talk a little bit about that lawyer and what the indictment says about that. coming up with our panel, paula reid, thank you very much. joining me now is former federal prosecutors jean rosie and joseph moreno, as well as former council sophia nelson, and former trump white house deputy secretary sarah matthews. so, joseph, so much more detail in this indictment. but really, at the end of the day, this is about trump. this is about trump directing what really is a conspiracy that goes beyond just his closest trusted aide, but now it has entangled a third codefendant in an effort to obscure and hide, and even get his lawyers to lie to the federal government. >> it is a shame about the junior employees in trump's employee because it seems he has a way of untangling people in his problems and then casting them aside. he will pay for the lawyers as long as they keep their mouth shut.

basically, that is what the deal is. >> i'm just going to jump in here, because as you bring up the lawyers and trump paying for it, there is part of the indictment here that is really telling about how trump approaches this. it says here that just over two weeks after the fbi discovered classified documents in the storage from, in trump's office, nauta called trump employee number five and said something to the effect of, someone just wants to make sure carlos de oliveira it is. good carlos de oliveira is the third defended. now and in response, that employee told walt nauta that carlos de oliveira was loyal and would not -- trump called de oliveira and told him that trump would get him an attorney. >> yeah, conflict of interest there, perhaps. trump is free to pay for his employees attorneys, but he is not free to tell them what to say, to expect silence, or to put any kind of pressure on

them in leveraging the paying of that attorney. so, i think a lot of these folks might say at this point, trump is not looking out for me, maybe i should get my own lawyer. >> what do you make out for the fact that there's so much more evidence of trump being, as he's describing this indictment, >> being trump -- >> the boss -- it is almost this elaborate scene out of some kind of mob movie. >> when i was a federal prosecutor with my good friends here, one of the most wonderful charges was obstruction of justice. the reason it is a great charge is, you can be innocent and still commit obstruction of justice. here, we have great underlying evidence allegations of violations of the espionage act, but the obstruction of justice so is the consciousness of guilt, and i have to say, paragraph 75 to 91 of this indictment, if they are true,

are absolutely devastating, and help a prosecutor. >> tell us what those paragraphs described. >> well, 75 to 91% talk about the doj attorney called one of the attorneys for donald trump on june 23rd, said, you are going to get a grand jury subpoena for security footage. the next day, walt nauta changes this travel plans instead of going to illinois he goes to mar-a-lago and arrest history. >> there's a part in that section there where he itextingm that he is going down to florida, and he is using the shifting emoji to describe the secrecy of doing all this. often in the legal word, world, we talk about people state of mind, clearly the folks around trump knew that they were doing something surreptitiously that was probably wrong, maybe even illegal for trump. >> you know, i completely

agree. i think that this just goes to show that trump knew he was in the wrong for keeping these documents, when he had no right to hold on to them. and he then put his -- unfortunately, his staffers are now taking the fall for this as well, because he required them to engage in, potentially, illegal activity. obviously, this is just an indictment right now, and he needs to be proven guilty. but the facts in this indictment are pretty damning. >> i think what jack smith is doing is brilliant. he is taking it step-by-step, right, jeanne? >> absolutely. >> and he's given us a little at the time, so that we digest, that this thing is bigger and -- by the time we get to the january 6th indictments. and i don't want to jump ahead. but i think that what you say is, right jeanne, those paragraphs are devastating, and it really goes to who donald trump is and i grew up in south jersey. so, this guy has been a staple in my life forever.

i'm old enough to remember seeing him on the enquirer magazines and everything else. but this is who he has been forever. he is, for a lack of a better way to put it, a mob boss. he tells you what to do, the minions do it. they don't stop to think about their liability. only, this time, they are playing with what you said -- espionage and federal crimes -- and this is really serious stuff here. very. >> he's been broadcasting, though, for a long time, though, right? this argument that i don't believe that i did anything wrong. i can declassify these documents. they are not kept any old place. the secret services there regarding them. we'll, if he really didn't think he did anything wrong what we have now learned today really decimate set. because, why are you debating the leading surveillance footage? why are you having boxes moved? why are you hoping that your lawyers will kind of live for you? wink wink so, i don't really see how he now maintains that argument, which really has problems. it's toast -- >> it's worked for him his whole life, though, is my point. there's a pattern and practice with donald trump that starts

way before the white house about how he runs his business, how he gets out of things, how we explain things, how he doesn't pay people. this is not new, folks. america, you've got to wake up. >> so, sarah, in terms of trump's state of mind here, i think the superseding indictment adds more layers to the curiosity about what would've prompted him to take all these extra steps. as you pointed out, right after he first learned that there would be a subpoena for the documents, he basically has walt nauta moved move the boxes. and then, has them tried to delete the surveillance footage. do you think that there is more here about why trump really didn't want the feds to get these the feds to documents back? >> i simply think he had the right to hold on to them. the fact is, these are america's top secrets, and he was storing them in a bathroom in mar-a-lago. they had no place to be there with him there's one thing if you accidentally mistakenly take classified documents in a move, and obviously we've seen

from trump and his team they've tried to conflate the issue with former vice president pence accidentally taking classified materials, president biden taking classified materials. the thing is, they returned the material once it was discovered. with trump, he thought that he had a right to hold on to this, wanted to avoid giving it back, and then directed his employees to hide it from the federal government. i think that that goes to show that he knew he knew he was doing something wrong, and he is going to throw it every excuse out there to shift the blame. >> and gene rossi, how significant is it, do you think, that we now believe, it looks like from the indictment, that the doj has this document that he was allegedly waving around at the bedminster meeting that refers to attack plans against iran? i did not show up in the first indictment, they referenced it but they never charged him with

that document. they have now charged him. how significant is that? >> it is very significant. because he had an interview, i think, with sean hannity or somebody on fox, where he was saying who is a bunch of newspapers, articles, magazines, and now you have the document, the -- the corpus delectable delecti -- that, to me, of all the things he has done, allegedly, and he's presumed incident innocent, of all the things he's done allegedly, is he showing more, plans nuclear secrets, to people who have no business having top secret clearance, or hearing top secret information. that, to me, is the worst. but i've got to follow up on something joe has said. and this goes to what michael cohen has said. donald trump has an amazing ability to find people who are vulnerable, who will do whatever he says, and michael cohen said this several years

ago. it's a brilliant, evil skill of his, and he picked on nauta and he picked on this carlos de oliveira. i can't pronounce his name. but he found employees that will do anything for him. and that is a crime in itself. >> and when he breathed the -- tape with the superseding indictment the transcript of the interview that the fbi had, at carlos de oliveira's home, and you read it, and you see someone who -- line before he is even asked. that was so interesting to me about just the conduct of someone who is embroiled in a very serious case, and has willingness to go there for donald trump. >> it's sad. i don't even know if he understands the will -- note that the lawyers didn't fall for this. most of us lawyers are pretty good about the to kind of cover ourselves, and not be coerced by applying to lie on their

behalf. they knew better. but it's unfortunate. i see it as a shame that these junior level individuals who are not attorneys, they are not skilled in the law, are willing to do exactly what you said, abby, because they are going to take the fall for this guy and it's kind of a sad situation. >> and trump -- it also explains why you have to charge -- >> but abby -- >> -- >> it's also the power imbalance -- to your point, gene rossi -- celebrity apprentice, he's all these things. just help me out, i got, you maybe this will open a door for me. i think people get caught up in the cult of donald trump. and i think that is really the danger of him, to your point. >> and i think what worries me as well, is we saw what happened with cassidy hutchinson and the cassidy january 6th committee hearings, when she had a trump appointed lawyer, they were paying for her legal fees at the beginning, and they were trying to coerce her testimony. to be in favor of trump -- and obviously --

her best interest and she told the truth to the american people about what happened that day. so, i hope that his -- not trumps. >> we will see, and perhaps there is still time for a lot of that to unfold. everyone, stick around for me. coming up next, one of trump's republican 2024 rivals joins me here live, will hurd is with us. plus, i will speak live with a former trump official who says that he win is trump's handling classified documents while in office. this is cnn special live coverage. retinol overnight means... the smoothing benefits of retinol. are now for your whole body. plus, fast-working crepe corrector diminishes wrinkled skin in just two days. gold bond. champion your skin.

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tonight -- donald trump facing new charges in the classified documents case, including accusations that he ordered aides to delete the server of mar-a-lago surveillance video. now, if that sounds familiar to you, it is because of this. >> where is the server? how come the fbi never got the server from the dnc? where is the server? i want to see the server. let's see what is on the server. now, i don't know how the fbi can investigate something if the dnc, the democrats, refused to give the server. we are is the server? i want to know, where is the server? and what is the server saying? >> she set up this illegal server, knowing full well that her actions put our national security at risk, and put the safety and security of your children at risk. there has never been anything

like this, were emails -- and you get the subpoena -- you get to subpoena. and after getting the subpoena, you delete 33,000 emails. and then -- or bleach them. i would like to see the server. i think it's very important for this country to see the server. >> and joining me now is one of donald trump's 2024 republican rivals, former texas congressman will hurd. we played that matchup, really, to illustrate how much this has been a part of the public life, and now to see, in this indictment, pretty clear evidence, allegations here, that donald trump was the one who directed his aides to try to delete surveillance footage, to delete this server, so that federal investigators would not see what was -- >> i mean, i have never been indicted. i am not a lawyer. but if you are deleting evidence it is because you know you are committing a crime.

and anybody who supports this, anybody who defends this, is complicit in endangering america, endangering the men and women who are putting themselves in harm's way every single day, and every single night, in order for us to enjoy these freedoms. let me be clear about this, donald trump is not running for president to make america great again. donald trump is not running for president to defend our interests overseas. donald trump is not even running to represent the people that voted for him in 2016 and in 2020. donald trump is running for president in order for him to stay out of jail. these are serious crimes, these are serious accusations, donald trump is a national security risk, and he needs to be beaten in a primary, so that we can be done with him once and for all. and i hope i can be and that debate stage, in order to have

these conversations, but i need everybody's help, i need folks to go to hurdforamerica.com and help me -- >> -- if he were the nominee. do you think that given the conduct that is in this indictment, that he should be in the oval office again? if he is elected? >> of course he shouldn't be in the oval office. this is just more example of how he doesn't care about people. look at these two aides that he's just tossed away and made him do their dirty work. the fact that anybody else thinks this guy is fit for office's disappointing to me. now, i do believe the best way to finish this once and for all is to beat him in a primary. but, this is a guy that, like -- the question that he hasn't answered is, why is he trying to keep all these documents? >> what do you think the answer to that? >> i do not know -- i do not know. when you look at the information he has, it is

information from the anaerobic nro -- cia, special access programs, some of the most classified -- who are you keeping these? why are you lying about these? these are not your documents. these are the documents of america and the american people. if they got into the wrong hands, that hurts us. when you look at the number of events that have been held at mar-a-lago, donald trump still has not told us what security put in place in order to protect these documents. it is not the secret services responsibility to keep these -- to protect these documents. it was his. he hasn't explained to us why he had them. he hasn't explained to us why he was keeping -- this guy is a national security risk. and you know who is loving all of this? you know who is laughing right now? it is our adversaries. the chinese government, the

russian governments are reveling in the fact that one of the leaders of -- you know, the primary candidate in the republican party, has so much bag on so much issue, and he's more worried about not dying in prison then he is about what's right for the country. >> is it hypocritical for republicans to chant, lock her up, when it comes to hillary clinton, and then also say in this case, when it comes to trump, that he shouldn't even be charged or scrutinized in any way because he is a candidate for the presidency? >> of course it is hypocritical. and anybody who is defending this behavior is complicit in eroding the trust and the faith that we have in the men and women that are trying to protect us. >> you were involved with the clinton -- looking into some of these issues when it comes to clinton. in your assessment, which is worse?

what trump is alleged to have done here or what you investigated when it came to clinton? >> the volume of the classified documents, the different locations that they came from, the actual attempts to erase evidence, to get people to lie, to try to force your lawyers to lie, this is a level of criminality that i don't think we've seen before. maybe richard nixon. and this is another reason why donald trump should not be president, and we need to make sure we are doing everything to prevent him from being the next president of the united states. >> one of the documents that we've been discussing for a little while now is the one that he hadn't been in bedminster, and he was waving it around, it was an iraq and iran attack plan. -- he was charged in the superseding indictment for withholding that document. what does it tell you that now

that we know the classification level of that document, about the seriousness of what was contained in there? >> he is spitting in the face of all the sons and daughters and spouses and brothers and sisters who wear a uniform to protect our nation. he is spitting in the face of all the people that are in a dark alley collecting intelligence in order to keep the homeland safe. he is spitting in the face of all these people that are willing to put themselves in harm's way in order to ensure that the united states of america stays the greatest country on the planet. and why would you waive this around to prove that you are some cool guy or tough guy with someone? how many other people has he done that with that we don't know of? how many other people had access to these documents that we may not know of? we know the chinese government and the russian government is interested in understanding these kinds of secrets. we know that they are running ops against people that are

close to important former elected officials. so, donald trump has not explained anything about how he was able to protect this information. and to me, as someone who spent most of my adult life protecting this country, being connected with national security, putting myself in harm's way, talking with people that are putting themselves in harm's way, this is disgusting. that someone who was a president of the united states is willing to do this. >> last thing before you go, the trial for this case, right now is set for, frankly, in the middle of the republican primary. should this case be tried and reach a conclusion before the 2024 election? >> i think that's up to our judicial branch on figuring out what is within the realm of doing this. the best thing that can happen is making sure that we beat donald trump in these primaries, that people like me get on the

debate stage, and people can help me do that by go into hurdforamerica.com, and making sure that he is beaten before this happen. and it is up to the judicial branch to figure out when the actual trial happens. >> former congressman, will hurd, thank you so much for joining us tonight. we appreciate it. i want to bring into more key voices now. cnn senior political commentator adam kinzinger who served on the january six committee, and also miles taylor a former trump dhs official who wrote, anonymous an op-ed, and is the author of a new book called blowback. adam and miles, both of you, thank you very much. congressman kinzinger, i want to start with you on this superseding indictment that adds a lot of meat to the bones about trump's role in leading an effort to obstruct this investigation. what did you make of the details that we learned tonight? >> here is the interesting thing, and i know this is probably not why it was done

this way, but it is almost perfect that the former president came out and say said i was just showing newspapers and clippings. and then it's like, a few weeks later, hey, look we got proof that that's not the case. it's yet another lie that the former president was caught in. i think what is very clear here is that jack smith is taking this very seriously. he is going where the path leads. and if i was donald trump, and frankly -- i think donald trump is -- he's very afraid of what is going to come out of this and what is going to come out of the january 6th. and jack smith has shown that he is going to pursue this to the ends of the earth. >> and miles, you worked in this trump administration and you said that you've seen trump mishandle classified documents. what did you see? >> abby, let me say one quick thing first, here though to pick up on where adam was at on the iran revelations, here i

want to be very clear, when this was happening during the trump administration, when there were conversations about potential attack plans related to iran, i was -- staff at the department of homeland security. i was read into some of the most sensitive programs in the entire federal government, and even i was not allowed in the room to understand what was happening in those conversations. it was one of the most closely guarded things that happened during the entirety of the donald trump administration. i remember, there were even different names for what those meetings were when they were happening in that building, and for donald trump to treat those discussions with the carelessness of a dirty kleenex is the type of thing that gets people thrown in prison, not just for a few years, but for the rest of their lives. this is the type of things that put soldiers, spies, and civilians in danger. it gets people killed. this is an absolutely damning superseding indictment. and yes, this is, abby, as you know, not a one-off. this was a pattern of behavior, and i will tell you, we were responsible for advising him on the homeland security of the

united states. -- didn't know -- >> we have lost -- >> witnessed him -- oh, do you have me back? >> i think we got you back. you can finish up, miles. >> there we go. sorry about that. i was just saying, we were his homeland security officials, charged with helping him protect the united states, and even we did not know if we could trust the president with classified information, because he shared secrets with our rivals, and he showed reckless disregard for the handling of that information in the oval office in front of his own staff, and in front of outsiders who did not have clearance to see that information -- >> and congressman adam kinzinger, even tonight, republicans, including some of trump's closest allies on capitol hill are defending him. that is probably not a surprise to you. but this superseding indictment really shows a willful-ness here.

and also, perhaps a disregard as well for people who worked for him. are you surprised to see this continuing in your party, just on unwillingness to grapple with the real reality of what was being alleged? you know, i am surprised. i guess i'm not surprised. there is no surprise here. but i am still surprised that people don't have a red line. i always thought, growing up, going to sunday school, even when i got -- congress, that, like, everybody has a red line for dishonesty and honesty that they are unwilling to. cross there's always an argument art in that particular politics, but here's one thing. i've come to learn that people do not fear -- they don't fear death in life, particularly in politics. they fear getting kicked out of their tribe. they fear more than anhi, their base turning against them, and having to feel the kind of attacks that both miles and i had to feel for a long time, of good friends saying things,

like, you are a traitor to your country. they don't want to have the courage to do that. i saw elise stefanik tonight come out in support of donald trump. i've seen everybody that continues to do this. i don't understand it. i guess if you have given enough of your soul, so much of your soul, it is like sunken cost. you just have to keep on going. but it said to watch. and i am surprised because, again, i thought humanity, and particularly some of my colleagues, had a red line. >> and miles, as you talk about in your new book, your book -- really about what a next trump term could look like and when you see the conduct here in this indictment that his alleged what does it make you think about how he governs? how he leads the people around him? what is your assessment of about what we should take away from that? >> well, i think that this superseding indictment tonight, abby, really firmly finishes

the story of the fact that donald trump operates like a mob boss. we've seen with this indictment, that he keeps his family close, he demands loyalty. he intimidates the people around him, he uses intermediaries and cut outs to do his dirty work. he has other people bury the bodies for him, or in this case, bury the boxes for him, and they call him the boss. a man like that, -- very dangerous in any context. in a cartel criminal ring, but especially dangerous if he's got his finger on the nuclear button. and here, we've seen it. he is reckless with handling our nation's nuclear secrets. and in "blowback" i talk about the department of homeland security finally gave me authorization to say publicly, that because of donald trump, we had to do the first real life preparations for the possibility of nuclear war against the homeland, because we were so worried about his mishandling of the situation with north korea. i don't have confidence in the security and stability of our republic if he is returned to the white house, abby but.

>> adam, can i give you the last word here? do you have confidence that the republican party will be able to address this in the primary, as you heard will hurd say that they have to, if they are going to beat trump? >> no. i mean, certainly not. look, i am optimistic on the republican party long, like, 30 years from now, 20 years from now, or maybe ten, they are going to have to lose more and more races. unfortunately, i -- people like will hurd, people like chris christie saying the truth, that's important out there. but donald trump is popular. it's a cult. it's a cult and he is a cult leader. and it's tough to break people from that spell, but we have to keep trying. >> all right, miles taylor and adam kinzinger, thank you both very much. >> and up next, in other major developments today, trump's lawyers meeting with the special counsel, as he awaits a third indictment, involving efforts to overturn the election. hear what happened in that meeting, and what it means for his legal peril.

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>> the new trump charges in the documents case is not the only big development tonight. his lawyers today meeting with jack smith, hoping to avoid, or at least delay, another criminal indictment. now, this one is over trump's efforts to overturn the election ahead of january six. the meeting ended without them getting any new to guidance. and i'm back now with our panel. gene, it's not entirely surprising that they requested this meeting, that they were granted at the 11th hour. but, is jack smith really all that interested in what trump's lawyers have to say? >> well, when i was at the department of justice, when attorneys came in to do -- meeting -- i was always interested in what they said, only because i was probably going to indict them, and they were giving me the

information on what their defense will be. so, jack smith was interested in what they have to say. did it change his mind, probably not. >> and sarah, one of the big arguments that we've learned in our reporting, and that they made, was that this would be tumultuous for the country. and of course, it would. but, i think the whole crux of the january 6th case really comes down to how tumultuous the accusations itself are, that trump tried to subvert a free and fair election. so, how do you think that that plays out on balance? >> it's really ironic to hear them say that him being indicted was would be tumultuous, when i thought that january 6th was tumultuous. i thought that trump denying the results of the free and fair election, and refusing to this day, it's something horrible for our nation's democracy. and what's really sad, is that he has convinced his supporters that this is the case. obviously, not all of his supporters. but a large swath of them believe this, and they believe that this was a fraudulent

election. when there has been no evidence of that, and he has even tried to pursue this in court, and failed time and time again. and so, i think that if they have the evidence to prove that there was criminality for him trying to overturn the election, and criminality with january 6th, and the planning of that, then, he deserves to be held accountable. >> politically, sophia, january 6th is something that a lot of republicans on the hill would love to forget. and, some of them actually are trying to completely rewrite that history. but, no matter what, if there are charges that stem from this, this country is going to relive all of the events leading up to it. >> a couple of things. one, 147 members of congress, republicans, voted not to certify that election, after, after the fact, right? >> yeah. >> and that's a stunning thing right there. and then it goes back to something sarah said, which is to this day, donald j trump

will not acknowledge that he lost the 2020 election. so, from my standpoint, as a former investigative counsel attorney, et cetera, jack smith really has no choice based on the evidence that we've all seen, but to go forward and indict. because if he doesn't, tumultuous isn't even the right word to what happens to this country. and this democratic republic that we have, that we all love, that we would like to see stand another 250 years. this moment is going to be written about 100 years from, now. it really will be. we won't be here. but your daughter will be here. she will be old, but she will be here. and their generation will look at us and say, what were they thinking that they let this go on, and they didn't stop this man? it gets back to all the worst analogies of the worst figures in history that -- you know, i won't name -- because i don't want to be incendiary. but at the end of the day, trump is a pretty dark figure, and history is going to bear that out. >> this is certainly history playing itself out. and if you are jack smith -- he is writing a lot of chapters

of this history book. what we saw with the superseding indictment in the mar-a-lago case -- does that give you a hint as to his tactics as a prosecutor? that he might put an indictment on the table in the coming days or weeks? and that might not be the end of the story for trump or his associates? >> jack smith was head of public integrity unit at the department of justice. and that was a unit that looked at corruption among public officials. and from what i know, he is methodical, he is incredibly bright. he is tenacious, he is organized, and he is fearless. and if this indictment is returned, either next week or the week after ,

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the charges against donald trump -- joining me now to discuss this is former democratic congressman tim ryan. he's also founder and chairman of we the people. so, as congressman ryan, this is yet another chapter in the saga of indictments against donald trump. this time, we are learning a lot more about his role in directing his aides to obstruct, it looks like. the federal investigation -- what do you make of what we learned tonight? >> well, one of the reasons i started we the people was to have a home for the exhausted majority. the people in the country -- and i think watching your broadcast tonight, it is exhausting. donald trump, clearly, has been doing this for a long time. i don't think anybody is surprised, and you know, he is a gangster. there's no doubt about it, and it's pretty clear, and we have to figure out as a country, we have to move on past, this the hate and anger and --

but everything that you have reported, i am not surprised about any of it. he would order around the maintenance guy at mar-a-lago to move boxes of highly classified information. it's insanity that we are even dealing with his right now, and there's anybody defending him. and clearly there still are a lot of people defending him on that side, within his movement. but i think the vast majority of the people in the country are ready to move on from this. >> and, look, you are from the state of ohio that is a pretty red state at this point, and you probably have a lot of constituents, or former constituents of yours, who believe this idea that trump is being treated unfairly. what do you think democrats should say to those voters who believe that the season fair treatment? that trump is somehow being targeted here? >> i think if you are in that camp, where you think that this is a conspiracy, it's the deep state, it's unfair to donald

trump. you know, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes? those people, i don't think, are ever going to vote for joe biden, or any democrat at any point. and they're probably not gonna vote for will hurd, or adam kinzinger, or chris christie or anybody else. so, the key is, how do we get the majority of people in these swing states to say, that is unacceptable. i'm not talking about tax policy, i'm not talk about education policy, i'm talking about democracy. i'm talking about what this one person would, do with the got the levers of government again, and how dangerous that would be. and so, those people, i think, are not going to be eligible for a another offer option within the political system. so you've got to focus on the reasonable people in the middle. and i think in ohio and other places, there are a lot of those. people. >> there are a lot of people on the right warning about what an indictment or conviction of trump could do to the country. do you worry about that at all?

>> i think -- there will be some pushback but i will tell you that the people from january 6th, and the people involved in the insurrection, like, they have been prosecuted -- i think where it is out that you can't do things like that. and so, i think there will be some noise. i hope it's not a whole lot. but -- and i hope it stays kind of isolated in certain areas on social media. but i hope that most reasonable people saying he was trying to destroy the tapes at mar-a-lago, like, why would you do that if you are innocent? why would you have the maintenance guy moving the stuff around? why are you ordering people to lie? i think some of that stuff is so obvious. and again, like he said, there will be people that will defend that until the end. there will be some -- but i hope -- not a whole lot. but i think it's a call for us abby, as a country, to wake up. to say, you know, we are coming up on the 250th anniversary of the united states of america. it's a miracle we made it this

far, how are we going to make another 250 years? it's going to be by ushering in an 26

billion -- and it funds >> just -- i >> -- >> in a statement, her spokesperson says, the senator was preoccupied i didn't realize the debate had just ended, and a vote was. called she started to give a statement, was informed, and -- then she cast her vote. congressman, the constitution gives us a minimum age to serve in the house and in the senate. but do you think there should be a maximum ages well? >> i am not sure.

let me just say. i think we have to separate our humanity here where we see people in that situation. it's embarrassing. and they are confused -- and we should have sympathy and compassion for those people. at the same time, we are trying to run the most sophisticated democracy in the world, with great challenges. and so, the people of california or others should say, like, we need a generational change here. and we saw a different instances this week, with mitch mcconnell, and with diane feinstein. it's not here to be brash, or to be arrogant, but just to say, what are we doing here in the united states? we have got to have capable people running for office, and people who understand the complexities of problems. i've been in committee hearings with a lot of people. it's a free-for-all sometimes. and you don't always know what is going on, what vote, what

amendment and that. so, we shouldn't be overly judgmental in this particular instance. but just to say, whether it is senator feinstein, or mitch mcconnell, we need generational change. and there are a lot of young, dynamic people in this country that need to come into those leadership additions. and so, we should all question people who are not able to lead this country in the fashion that we needed to be led in. the competition with china, globalization, climate change, our education system, mental health, veteran suicide -- there's so many complicated. issues we can't have people that are confused. and it's sad to say, we should have some humanity here and some compassion.