but i'm not sure they actually want to do that. but we'll see. we can also make the argument if you believe your client is innocent, why not clear his name before the election? >> yeah. we'll see what they'll decide to. do pollard, i'm sure we'll be here on thursday. thank you. >> kaitlan, it seems like we're always saying this data that has been historic, but perhaps we'll find the best way to describe this knowing the next one is just days away. >> and it is thursday, just two days from now, whether in person or by video link. a former american president will face charges for doing what no president has ever been accused of before. >> and of course we will be there when he does. right now the news is going to continue. thank you so much for joining us, we want to turn things over to cnn prime time with laura coats and erin burnett.

>> in a special breaking news coverage continues now. the third criminal indictment of former president donald trump. i'm erin burnett in new york. >> and i'm laura coates in washington, d.c.. this indictment is like nothing we've ever actually seen before in history of this entire country. and looking at it in black and white is absolutely extraordinary. it begins with this, everyone. quote, the defendant, donald j trump, was the 45th president of the united states, and a candidate for reelection in 2020. the defendant lost the 2020 presidential election. and as you say, laura, it begins that way with those simple words, he lost. that is a fact. but of course the person who had sworn to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution, instead tonight is accused in this 45-page indictment of trying to overthrow america's free and fair elections in an attempt to stay in power. it has been 1001 days since the

2021 election exactly. it has been -- day since the very sixth attack on the capital. it is now, though, and only now that donald trump has been indicted on four criminal counts, conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights. >> it's extraordinary to think about that being on the screen. of course that being a former president of the united states, this is now the third criminal indictment of the former president. and by the way, that's just this year alone. it's also not about hush money. this is not about the classified documents. this one is about a threat to our democracy. listen to what counsel jack smith had to say about tonight. >> the attack on our nation's capital on january 6th, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on

the scene of american democracy it's. described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies. lies by the defendant, targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the u.s. government, the nations process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election. >> let's take a step back, everyone, for a moment here, and let's begin with what we have actually learned tonight from this historic indictment. new justice correspondent evan perez actually at the courthouse in washington, d.c.. evan, another historic indictment against former president. walk us through exactly what is being alleged tonight. >> the former president obviously stands now as the first ever president to be indicted for crimes that he committed while he was in office and that is what we have here in this 45-page indictment,

these four charges stem from what the former, what the prosecutors said on jacks mitt said was essentially three conspiracies, all of them built on a web of lies that the former president, along with his coconspirators, who are not named here but we are of course have identified them simply because we have been reporting on everything that has happened since january six in the efforts to overturn the election. and one of the most important parts of this is that this indictment, in this indictment, the special counsel jack smith says that the former president knew he had lost the election. he knew that these were false claims about voter fraud. he was told, they list all the different people in the former presidents own government, from his vice president, from his former attorney general, from his acting attorney general,

from his head of homeland security, people who were there to secure the elections. his intelligence community, his white house counsel. everyone was informing him that these claims were false, and yet he persisted in listening to people like rudy giuliani, who is listed in here. he's not named, but we have identified him as coconspirator number one. john eastman, former lawyer who was helping him to come up with this fakelt plot, helping him also come up with idea that mike pence could overturn the election results. one of most important things of this, though, in this indictment, is that they clearly say that like every american, the former president had the right to say that he had lost the election, he had a right to challenge the results. he had a right to lie. what he did not have a right to do, according to jack smith and the prosecution here, if to engage in these conspiracies with his codefendants. and what they say is, it's

conspiracy to defraud united states by using dishonesty, fraud, and the seed to impair, obstruct, and defeat the unlawful federal government function, which is to certify the results of the election. they also say he was a conspiracy to corruptly obstruct and impede the jeremy six congressional proceeding. a ceremonial proceeding. and then a conspiracy against the right to vote, denying the right of americans to have their vote counted. laura? >> evan, it's striking every time you think about that, it almost reads that one paragraph you around prancing like, your home tune opinion but not your own facts. evan perez, thank you so much. erin? >> let's go to christian holmes because you new jersey, just a few moments away from long trump's golf club which is where he is now. and kristen, i know you've been reporting various phone conversations, including one with elise stefanik, talking about gop response. so he has been busy tonight. what has the reaction been, as

you have been hearing it, from people around him as this new indictment, the news of it, the details of, it are sinking in? >> well, it's exactly what you would expect. they are painting this political, it's something they have been doing since the beginning. they really feel at this point that they have some ground to stand on. that's because of recent polling that shows that donald trump is still leading in the primary. it shows he could likely be the nominee and that this is political. but of course as we know, donald trump likes to play things on the court of public opinion. early tonight, talking to kaitlan collins, when the lawyers laid out what might be their legal strategy. >> our focus is this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. there's nothing more protected under the first amendment and political speech. so at the end, our defense is going to be focusing on the fact that what we have now is

an administration that his criminalized the free speech and advocacy of a prior administration during the time that there is a political election going on. >> and aaron, i want to make one thing clear. i don't know if this lawyer is going to argue some trial, if there is a trial, but part of this is putting it into the public narrative, saying that this is why the biden doj is bringing this and that is what trump wants. they want to be convincing voters that that is why this is happening, not because donald trump has committed any sort of crime. so whether or not this is actually a legal argument that could hold up in trial, that could hold up in a court of law, it really is not what we are looking right now. they're watching response to this as they try to get voters behind him. and as i've been reporting all night, when i talk to these voters on the, road they are behind him. i have heard a number of voters saying that they believe it is a two tiered justice system. they believe what he is saying.

and again, looking at those pools polls from earlier in the week, it is clear that some republicans or some voters are standing behind donald trump, something to keep in mind as we talk about how unprecedented this is, and we talk about how historic this is. this is a man who's running for president for the third time it is leading the field in the primary in the state. >> absolutely. we're gonna speak to one of those people running against him, will hurd, the former congressman, in just a few moments. thank you, kristen. laura, it is amazing, though in the context of this history making indictments, you still have a country in the latest polls split 40 3:43 in terms of biden versus trump. it is pretty incredible to think about that. >> there's even the fundraising. it seems to be a feather in the cap of this person who was running. and still a presumptive front-runner. i want to bring in my panel in washington d.c., starting former trump white house lawyer jim schultz. the lawyers in the room have

been champing at the bit ever since we heard. we were in the room green room like what, what was the argument being made? you've been a former trump white house lawyer. what is your reaction to the fact that this indictment is here, it's in full black and white? >> it's very thorough. it's very smart. it's very careful. and i'll start with careful. it's careful in that they took the first amendment issues, addressed it, got it off the table. the address the issue of he has this right to free speech, you can say a lot of things, when he can't do is conspire to overthrow the election. he was very smart in that it kept the coconspirators out of the indictment. i think that's very smart because what it does is signals that donald trump was in charge of this and everybody else was being used as his tool to accomplish's goal. i think that's the message they were trying to sand when they left out those coconspirators. >> but is it smart, though,

from the actual defense council? we don't know that's gonna be the lawyer. we have seen how this goes, the idea, we have people on in the be like oh, they're not no longer there, but on the front of the first amendment and the political speech, it seems to be, from the lawyers perspective, that look, every kind of speech is protected, and this is an example of the weaponization based on political speech. do you buy that? >> i don't. and i don't think the jury is going to buy it. i think the way that they crafter this and said yes, he has the right to say whatever he wants in the political realm. he does it all the time. but what they're saying here is you can't conspire with others to lighten people and lied to folks to get them to overturn the outcome of an election, lie to the electors, essentially lie about everything associated with that election. >> norm is bursting at the scenes. >> well, laura, as you know, i used to practice law with john laurel. he has to say something.

how do you defend this egregious conduct in this massive document? so of course you're gonna say first amendment, but there are limits. i can't go to the bank and say stick a mop, give me all the money in the cash drawer, and say first amendment, you can't prosecute me. >> defamation to, right? >> then he says yes. then he says his second argument wise advice of counsel, eastman was one of the most preeminent my clients a businessman. no. these arguments that eastman were making where bizarre. they were off the wall. look constitutions let mike pence what march in there and suspend. >> i agree with him wholeheartedly. the constitution does not permit my pants to go in and do those things, and he did the right thing by coming forward

and said no i'm not gonna do it. when he said he wouldn't do it the president went out and tweeted that he said he would do it. >> i might need some ice skates, because these two agreed wholeheartedly. hail has burst open. >> [laughter] >> climate change, fyi. >> the first amendment argument, as you said, is perhaps unlikely to work in the court of law. but in the court of public opinion, especially in republican primary, i see it being very potent. >> why? >> if you look at the other things he's accused of, let's take the mar-a-lago documents, donald trump is always positioning himself as i am the one standing between the deep state, the democrat and, you. they really want to come after people like you. on the moral largo documents they want to prevent people from keeping documents in their bathroom. that's a little harder to make that case. >> is if they had classified status. >> a lot of republicans feel strongly that they are not allowed to say things that they believe to be true. and it's not just about 2020 election, whether it's covid and its origins, whether it's all sorts of stuff about social

and political issues, they believe i'm not allowed to say listen to scientists and they come after me. the taps into an emotional argument that many republicans will say yes, i'm with him. >> i travel a country all the time, in many republican voters view themselves as a pawn in an overall political gain. it's not just democrats they dislike and distrust. it's a republican establishment that they dislike and distrust. to that very salient point, donald trump, for them, is their final arbiter against this entire political mechanism that is against them, these elites, these highly educated individuals telling them how they should live their lives, telling them what's best for them. >> but wait, whether it's true or not. >> and they believe those things as being fundamentally offensive to them, and in many ways a violation of the very freedoms. and donald trump in a very unique an interesting way has presented himself as the only individual who is standing up for them. whether that may be true or not, there's a reason why 65% of americans believe the country is headed in the wrong direction.

look at the approval between trump and biden, 41% approval of joe biden right now, 43% approve of donald trump. that's why they're in a statistical tie, 43 to 43. >> but do you know why this whole issue, among the republican primary, the whole first amendment thing, the whole, you know, trump base, they feel like they are the ones that everyone else is going after, it's because no one else in the republican primary has had the guts and the backbone to say donald trump is wrong, to say donald trump is not the leader that this country deserves. look, i heard earlier on our air, governor, new hampshire new hampshire governor christopher noon and, so he was concerned about this indictment because it was very clear, everything that you said james, but it was also very simple. the simplicity of what he is laid out is so very clear for anyone to understand. and i think his point was, look,

this will absolutely continue to be fodder for the republican base, especially the maga base. everyone who's words donald trump. but governor sununu's right. you're not going to have independent suburban women going to say oh yeah, now i'm gonna support donald trump even more. >> everyone, great point. stick around, we have a lot more to talk about, a lot more to unpack. erin? >> laura, let's bring in one of trump's 2024 rivals, will hurd. congressman, i appreciate your time. so here we are, 45-page sweeping indictment. you just heard laura speaking to the former trump white house lawyer jim schultz and he was saying he thought it was very well and very strong so what sort of stands out to you now that you've had a chance to look at it? >> i think it's real simple, it's not about the weaponization of the government. this is not about the people

that serve our grand juries in washington, d.c.. this is about donald trump losing the election, trying to use everything possible within his power to overturn an election, failing to accomplish that, and they're now running for reelection so that he stays out of prison. this is, it's real simple, we need to recognize that he needs to be held accountable, and everybody who is sick and tired of donald trump, we're not gonna see donald trump go away because of these legal cases. he needs to be beat in a primary, and yes, he's a presumptive nominee, the elections are 25 weeks away, there are more people that would rather not see donald trump as the republican nominee or on the ballot ever again. those people are the ones that have to get activated, vote in primaries, and that's how we're

gonna solve this problem i do make the argument, congressman, to republican voters? obviously the majority of republican voters don't think that trump is gone anything wrong. it is consistent. i pointed out earlier, because it really stood out to me, only about half of independents in the latest polls agreed that trump has done something illegal. only about half of independents. and they are not even voting in your primary. how are you going to convince your voters? find, it can be as detailed and full as possible, but what moves the needle here? >> well, national polls are different than local polls. polling is different than voter i.d.. when you start drilling down in a place like new hampshire, there are significantly more people that dislike of donald trump than like donald trump and, in a place like new hampshire, 40% of the votes that are going to vote in a

primary are unaffiliated voters. these are people who take the responsibility seriously, and are engaged. elections always tighten the closer you get to the election, and the case to be made is to actually show up and talk about this and show that you're not afraid. this is what the gop needs, we need somebody who's not afraid of donald trump, but is also articulating a vision. it is hard, don't get me wrong, it is hard. it is just not complicated and it requires work and effort and requires activating a group of people that are going to vote in that primary that have not traditionally voted. there are examples of being able to pull this off and we just need folks who are willing to do that and, if the folks watching today want to see me on that debate stage and help me do that, go to hurt for america.com and help me out by donating at least $1. >> so, congressman, you are being clear about where you stand, governor hayes hutchinson, he has been clear as well. chris christie has been clear. so, there is you three.

, but then there are others including being the governor of florida, ron desantis. here is what, he just came out tonight and he is making no bones about it. he didn't bother to read, it he said that while i have seen the reports, i would have not read the indictment. i do they'll believe that we need to outperform so that americans have the right to remove cases from washington d.c. to their home districts. washington d.c. is a swamp, and then says that no more excuses, i will end the weaponization of the federal government. so he is not even pretending, he is saying that it is actually not worth reading. >> look, i get why ron desantis is scared of donald trump, ron desantis would not be governor of florida if it weren't for donald trump. donald -- rhonda santas is somebody who thinks that there is an upside to slavery, so it's not gonna be the guy who's gonna be the savior of the gop and anybody who is running in this race is afraid to criticize donald trump, is not prepared to be president of the united states.

and this is part of the problem of, everybody is trying to audition for his vice president or somebody in his cabinet rather than explaining to the american people, explaining to the gop voter, about if we want to make sure that we are done with joe biden, if we want to make sure that joe biden is accountable for the allegations about abusing his position, to help his side, if we want to deal with things like actually fixing the border, then we have to win elections and putting donald trump as our nominee, we are going to give four more years to donald trump because there's no independent, there is no democrat that is tired that the direction of the is going, that is all of the sudden 25 weeks from now or more, that is going to vote for donald trump. and so we need candidates that are willing to take it to donald trump. >> all right, congressman hurt, i appreciate your time.

thank you very much. >> always a pleasure. >> let's go straight to my panel here. let me start with you, because, i just talked about what ron desantis said and he certainly is not alone. italy is demonic, senior member of the gop house, i had a conversation with trump tonight, the whole point of it according to a source was how she could help more with republicans and get the house republicans to stay behind to. marjorie taylor greene has just tweeted that i will still vote for trump even if he's in jail. this is a communist attack on america's first amendment to vote for the people want for president. you know, just putting that aside, wrong amendment. this is the sentiment among many in the gop. >> it is the sentiment among most of what i would consider to be the establishment of the gop. i mean, we used to think of trump and the trump folks as -- >> changing the word establishment, outright? >> this is what the establishment leadership of the party, it least a good chunk of it, believes and is willing to

espouse publicly. most of the presidential candidates are going to be on roughly the same message, weaponize government, i'm not going to, i'm going to replace the ahead of the fbi, that kind of stuff. it is all very, very similar and coordinated and by trump, who is the de facto head of the republican party, which this is the establishment opinion. i don't think that you're going to see people deviate from that too much, as long as he remains as popular among republicans as he is. there is a smaller faction of people who believe what will hurd believes, but will is at 0% in the primary. and so if you consider political parties to be derivative of the opinion of the people who consider themselves to be members, that none of the reaction should surprise you. >> jim all you're at a point of pride. you are making the point about desantis, the point that they are all making is that it is not even worth reading this. forget how well written it is, how reasoned, how foolproof, it is not worth reading because it is a weaponized document.

that's their argument. >> it's not going to help him, but i like will hurd. he's a decent public service. where he was wrong today was desantis being afraid of donald trump. i don't think the candidates are, they may be, i don't know. but they certainly are afraid of trump voters, and i don't know how you get nominated in the donald trump maga party and be against donald trump. donald trump is a defining factor of whether or not your considered legitimate or illegitimate and i have got a friend, hassan jeffries, whose brother hakeem jeffries is the minority leader. assange is a professor in ohio. he said to me that donald trump is the first president that we have had two is not bound by either party, principle, or patriotism. and if you think about it that way, he is completely uncontrollable and it is a tragedy that here we are, in the beginning of the, the late beginning of the 21st century, and without a united states president who really is not a

patriot. is the least patriotic person that we have ever seen in the office. >> i'm not trying to make light of marjorie taylor greene's tweet, harry, but it is, we're at a point where it seems to be an incredible lack of knowledge about basic things like the constitution and how government works. in the space of that lack of knowledge, it has been filled with lack of respect and lack of trust. >> look, from a lawyer's point of view, you've got the lawyers on the side here. i think the same thing to do is to try to ignore that part and try to think what jack smith is going to do and hope that he will be able to make the case. to, me the indictment was very interesting because we are blitzing through it, does he have those coconspirator and that? you can imagine that this was wordsmiths, so to speak, very carefully, for a very long time. he decided to tell a story. there are many ways you could have told the story, he's telling the story about truth and lies. as you said, in the very first sentence, he lost the election. forget about that.

but you go through the paragraphs of fraudulent, why, again and again. that really, as opposed to other kinds of abuse of power, is what anchors everything about the story. it will be interesting, i agree, there is no first amendment argument that he can try to make but that, rather than some more crass power play is the way that smith has chosen to frame this and very carefully. >> ryan, doctor the coconspirators. at wknow who five of the six of them are,aybehey are already indicted, maybe this is an effort to get them to turn, i don't know. but, how important is finding that information out, to understand where this goes from here? >> so i think it is important in the sense that these coconspirators might very well flip. there is a lot of pressure on them in this indictment. in many ways because the indictment actually has allegations that put them in greater criminal jeopardy than

even president trump, because there is strong evidence here that giuliani knew that there was not fraud and he was making it up. that giuliani and kendis chesebro agreed that the false slate of electors or not to really contingent on the -- if they lost the election there is still going to send across the false electors. all of this information about them, puts been amount of pressure on those people to probably flip, and i think that is face two of what is coming. >> karen, i don't want public to much emphasis on this because i know that there is a wide range of latitude, but these charges bring with them maximum of 20 years into cases, these are very serious, very long times that people could be spending in prison. and the judge, who we know is going to be overseeing, this is known for being tough on sentencing. so the question is extraordinary. >> absolutely. extraordinary for them to cooperate if they can tell the truth, because we have to be able, to a quarter to cooperate you have to be able to admit to what you did, it mid to all of

it, and do it truthfully. and we will see if people like rudy giuliani are capable of telling the truth at this point because they really have dug in. so deeply and are so entrenched in believing, or being part of this law and this world. so we will see, i do think it is stunning that normally indictments say that unindicted coconspirator number one, unindicted coconspirator number two, here they say coconspirator. as harry was saying, this is very wordsmith. every word is painstakingly gone over by 100 people, where he chose to take out unindicted, which to me says that they are indicted. >> every word chosen and every word not in, obviously as well. all staying with us as our special coverage continues. laura? >> i'm still waiting to find out, i know a reporting, our identify are the first five, but who is the six vote

coconspirator? >> who is number six? who is behind this door? we might be surprised. listen, in the wake of the charges against former president, trump there are, of course, comparisons that are coming to mind. watergate. next, john dean is going to weigh in. plus, daniel goldman who is the lead counsel and then president trump's first impeachment. this is cnn special live coverage. ♪ chevy silverado hass what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views.. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado.

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laura coats of course, and it's not just the latest indictment against former president trump that is causing massive legal issues for him. there are other very serious cases against him. so, this add to a mounting crisis for the former president. tom foreman is standing by to explain all this to us. tom, now that you've got this latest indictment, what are the other cases that trump is dealing with? >> it's hard to keep up with all of this, erin, because there is a constellation of problems about him. different courts, judges, cases. the classified documents case, an indictment. the hush money case, an indictment. the e. jean carroll lawsuit whose found liable. the georgia lawsuit, that seems like it's about to come, out the doj investigation, another indictment and more. look at the classified documents case. he is accused of mishandling classified information, accused of trying to delete security footage along with aide walt nauta and his property manager there. he and not to have both denied doing anything, wrong but this is currently supposed to come

to trial in may of 2024, the hush money case, this is up, and new york state trying to move to federal court. a judge said no this is just embarrassing thing that you did when you are provinces and trying to become the president and the states where it is. accused of conspiracy to undermine an election, accused of until awful plan to suppress information. the accusation, as you passed money to his attorney michael cohen to stormy daniels to hide things that he didn't want people to know about in personal relationships there. that case, again, he is denying doing anything wrong. but that could beat the other case by coming out in march of next year. that is just two of them that are in the works right now, in addition to what we have learned today, erin. >> that's just two of them. and those are cases where you already have charges, right? and you already have a process in place and there still could be more coming. >> absolutely, this is the stuff that is baked in, now. this is for real. this is happening. look at the georgia election

probe, which i mentioned a minute ago. this has been in the works for more than two years now. fani willis, the fulton county district attorney says that we are ready to go. they're looking at the efforts to overturn the election results there. remember, the presidents call to the secretary of state trying to find a vote that he wanted down there. she says there will be a charging decision announced by september 1st, maybe they won't charge him, but if they do that is another one that goes on the docket and then we have followups on the e. jean carroll case, the arizona look into what he might have down there, and i think, erin, constantly with donald trump, the former president, you have to think about the wildcards. the things that we haven't even thought of yet or may arise out of these cases. all of which, put aside the election, puts a very, very busy legal document in front of him. >> you look at that and juxtapose it with the political calendar, it is incredible to think what the country is going to be watching during what should be an election process.

tom, thank you so much. laura? >> unbelievable to think about all that swirling around the former president of the united states, and that's not even the investigations or his associates, by the way, those just ones involving really him. and, look, the language in this indictment against donald trump is a strong and it is precise. you say keep it simple stupid one to think about actually write something that was a story and actually relay the information, special counsel jack smith is alleging that jack smith was so -- that donald trump was so determined to remain in power that he launched a criminal scheme and he spread pervasive and destabilizing laws about election fraud that he knew were false. joining me now is john dean, former nixon white house counsel. john, i'm so glad to see you. i have to say, i'm not even sure that we can use the word unprecedented anymore. i think it meant something two indictments, two impeachments ago. can you believe that what all

that is happening right now has really become, almost, routine? this notion that, we are talking about a former president being indicted three times in four months? ? did you ever think that we would be here? >> never. and the stakes went up considerably with this indictment because, what is really on trial, laura, in this case, is democracy. if trump can get away with what he has done, what is spelled out in this indictment, our system of law no longer works and our election system is in jeopardy. he, in effect, we'll have pulled off a coup. so this is a big a stakes case. >> it could mean, to that point, the idea that if there is no accountability pursuit. again, the president of innocence this still there with good reason in a justice system, that would mean that it would be the serve version of the peaceful transfer of power that he is being charged with and

trying to keep themselves in office is extremely consequential. but to your larger point, and i'm reminiscent of course of ford and nixon's, some say that because it goes to the core of our democracy, it is not good to have a former president of the united states punished or have the prospect of punishment. do you buy that? >> well, in an earlier panel i was listening to the reaction when describing how republicans are dealing with this, and they are politicizing it. so they're trying to take this case in the public arena, the court of public opinion, and make it a political case. that will not happen in a courtroom, of course as you well know. politics will be pushed aside and they will look at the facts. but, as you politicize this, you really do change the dimensions of the case and that is troubling. >> you know, i am reminded of that was saying, you know this, well if the president does it it is not illegal.

well, the defense counsel for trump, and obviously i'm paraphrasing, seen suggest that if it is spoken than it is automatically covered by the first amendment. what do you make of that initial defense? >> i don't think that is going to work, in fact, i think that the crafting of this indictment really avoided that issue. they don't rely on his deal devote speech on the ellipse, it is really focused on his behavior that is not first protected. as one analogy was given earlier, you can't go in a bank and say stick him up and claim the first amendment, i was just expressing myself. so when you have a conspiracy, the words that bring a conspiracy together are not first protected, i assure you. lots of law on that. >> john, do you think the other coconspirators are going to be charged? they are not presently on this heading as you know, but we have identified at least five of the six waiting to figure

out who the reporting might be for that six. do you see them being coconspirators, codefendants, or charged? >> well, it is interesting that they are named as conspirators in this indictment. that has implications for the evidence that is admissible during the trial, but what happens to them, as to whether they will be charged separately, i suspect that is the case. they are trying into, probably, get them to cooperate. they have made a very clear statement, they have described their behavior,-limited but sufficient to identify them all expect the six which i am scratching my head on, as well. but i think that is the effort. they're going to indict them if they don't cooperate and they're going to have to pay for the folly they engaged in with trump. >> john dean, it's always good to hear from you. we'll hear a lot more in the days ahead, i'm sure. let's go back to our panel here in washington, d.c..

jan, i'm really eager to get your perspective on all of this because we have heard a lot, we have heard first amendment claims, we have heard about from jack smith talking about, and really not in a vacuum, that this is a grand jury obviously with probable cause. but these are just allegations. we have talked a lot about the fact that the mar-a-lago documents case, it might be less complex then of course a january 6th case. did he make a powerful statement in this indictment to streamline this? >> i think he did, the indictment reads very well. it was carefully wordsmith that way, and i think what you opened within that first paragraph, that it's about the fact that trump lost, that is so central because it is about the fact that he lost and what he allegedly did to overturn that laws, and that is what the indictment is really about. so, in that sense, it takes away the notion of what do you, as the country believe. it's a statement to the country from smith to. it's not about whether you believe he won or, lost it's

about the fact that, legally, he had lost and what he allegedly did illegally to overturn it. so it really comes down to that and i think that the indictment does streamline the really vast efforts that were made in different ways, the doj, -- pressuring fans, all of that, and it's so interesting seeing john dean on because, after all, nixon was vice president and had to certify his loss. >> the irony, as you just said, jack smith in a way, norm, it is making a of a bat, isn't he? this case compared to mar-a-lago. >> the reason, as jim said, the reason that you name one defendant, the reason that you tell us a very simple story that you can lay out in one paragraph. he didn't want to admit he lost, so he squeezed the state officials and legislatures. he squeezed his own doj, got those county -- phony counterfeit electoral slates. i can no more use one of those then you cannot three dollar bill. when that didn't work he applied screws depends and then

finally exploited the violence. it's simple, and it's three conspiracies. defraud the united states, obstruct congress, and take away all our civil rights, 81 million biden voters, at least. so why do you do that laura? to go to trial and to go to trial fast, and that is the bet. he is going to put this case before the american people, we are going to get wintry verdict, i think we will get one within the year, and then these polls, trump, biden, 50/50, the american people are going to make a choice and that's how it should be. >> you're nodding your head. >> they lined up, there's a little something from everyone. the former chief of staff, the vice president and his contemporaneous notes, the former chief of staff, political visors, and then folks that mahogany cove want. the doj folks who have been doj for years, but are trusted folks within the department of

justice office legal counsel, deputy counsel of the president, the counsel to the president, all of those folks kind of saying the same thing that we lost the election and we can't do this. >> that is good point that an indictment raises. the idea that, in any other context, he seems to rely on people that he is trusted unless they are no longer jasmyn. stand by everyone, aaron. >> all right, laura, next, the surprising role that mike plans played in this indictment. as you read through it it is really fascinating. plus, former d.c. officer michael fanone, more than two years after he was attacked on january 6th.

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we are following the breaking news of now the third criminal indictment of former president donald trump in four months. he is now charged with four counts in connection with his efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and, as he faces a new legal fight over 2020, he still has to manage a campaign schedule to try to win in 2024. in october, trump goes on trial in new york to defend against charges of fraud in his business, then, in january, on

the same day as the iowa caucuses by the way and one month before the south carolina primary, the former president will face off against e. jean carroll, who as you know suit him for defamation. fast forward to march, there are more than 20 primaries that month alone, and trump will face a jury in the criminal case surrounding the hush money payments to adult film actress stormy daniels. the judge has warned that he must attend each day of the trial, which really could pull him off the campaign trail for several weeks. and, in case you thought that come spring he could go full force into the final months of the campaign, no. he is doing florida in may 1st criminal trial tied to his handling of classified documents once he left office. it's a lot, erin. >> the drumbeat and, as you point out, we don't know the schedule. that is what it is now but date move and everything shifts as we constantly move.

joining me now is david axelrod. so, david, in that context how does somebody even navigate this as a campaign person, as a voter, what we obviously have never seen anything like this before? >> exactly, there's not exactly a handbook on what to do if your candidate is faced with multiple trials and the course of the campaign. it has never happened before, but aaron, in certain ways, this whole legal tussle has become trump's campaign. he has used these cases as a rallying point and, in a weird way, the more indictments that are piled on, the more that he makes the case that it is all just an effort to stop him. so i don't know how they are going to manage his time, but i eastern going to use these trials and use these prosecutions to try to press his case that he is a victim and that he is being persecuted because he is a threat to joe

biden, he could be president again, and that the elites and the state want to stop him. that has become the essence of his campaign. we're gonna hear a lot of that, maybe from courtroom steps and not in town squares. so that is what -- the danger here is that donald trump, from the beginning, from the time that he came down that escalator, it is clear that he doesn't believe in rules or laws or norms or institutions. he thinks that the world is the hunger games and the strong take what they want however they need to end the week to fall away. so when he lost the election he had no problem trying to persuade the election had been stolen from him. we saw some of that laid out and this indictment today. now, in this campaign, he is under enormous pressure and has

decided that he will navigate it by persuading americans that the justice system in our country is corrupt, that prosecutors are corrupt, the fbi is corrupt, and so this is really a moment of peril for our country because he is very good at this. as i mentioned to you earlier, 70% of republicans still believe that the election was stolen because he has told them that. now many believe that the system is indeed corrupt and you hear a lot of republican call it titian echoing him. >> i'm curious about what you think, from your role having worked with the former president obama as well as biden himself, about mike pence's role in all of this. he came out tonight, and obviously he is very specifically laid out in this indictment and is a player in

it in the fact that he took a contemporaneous notes about his interactions with trump. so his statement tonight after he sees -- that i choose between him and the constitution, i chose the constitution and i always will. then pence's former chief of staff goes on fox and says that trump asked pence to overturn the election. in the gop, who listens to statements like these, at this point? >> listen, i think one of the tragedies of this, how ever you feel about pence or politics, is that here is a guy who is probably as loyal to donald trump as a person could be, as vice president, through all the controversies and all of the crises, he held firm for donald trump. but, the one thing he wasn't willing to do, was defy the

constitution and overturn a lawful election and for that he has been purged. here is mike pence messaging here tonight, the former sitting vice president of the united states, and we don't even know if he is going to be on the debate on august 23rd because he is not mustered enough support to qualify's. his fundraising is anemic, his polling is anemic, even among evangelical voters who were his base before he got together with donald trump, that is why trump victim, to be his ambassador to the evangelical vote. now trump has the majority of them in iowa and pence is at 4%. so this is the price that mike pence has paid for being, for that moment of such extraordinary important and courage, when he refused to do what the president wanted him to do. but he is paying a big price for it. >> pretty incredible when you think about it. david axelrod, thank you very

much. laura? >> just imagine mike pence might be testifying against the person, as david talks about, he was so loyal to. my panel is back with me now and for everyone wondering, when was chris christie we're going to weigh in? well he has. let me read for you a bit of what he says. this is on twitter. the events around the white house from election night forward are a stain on our country's history and a disgrace to the people who participated. this disgrace falls the most on donald trump, he swore an oath to the constitution, violated his oath, and brought shame to his presidency. it's no surprise that he has been one of the more outspoken critics of donald trump, it is not gaining him a lot in terms of polling, though. >> now, and part of that is that there is not a huge appetite in the republican party for a candidate whose primary message is donald trump's bad. that is not what republican voters are looking for.

and, frankly, even if you are a never trumper of publican, chris christie is a challenging sell because he was originally one of the establishment figures who stood behind donald trump at the very beginning when, was it possible to trump stop trump? maybe not so i think chris christie has got a low ceiling, however, will he make the debate stage very interesting? potentially. >> no one really has clean hands and politics overall, but you are right about that aspect of it. >> she's right, but the problem is that you're running in a republican primary against donald trump and so, as salient as the point may be that the former governor mate, who is listening to this? maybe democrats? maybe some independents? maybe the 25% of never trumpers? but the 37% that trump already has, they're not listening. the 37%, 17% of which are more persuadable trump, they are not listening. and then you have 12% of that aren't, and you have 6% either way. >> are you doing math right now? >> look we are talking to, laura. >> i disagree that you

shouldn't have a message against your opponent. >> i think you should. >> i just think it's the timing right now. i mean, there is a moment right after the midterms where i do think that republicans were saying that maybe we want to look somewhere else. but, in the last couple of months, every month that i've done my polling, donald trump's lead over the second place contender grows by eight japan points. >> this is the point. it is way too late now for republicans to say, oh, we don't want donald trump. there were so many of them saying that at the very beginning, you are right. even right after the 2020 election people, because people knew, republicans knew that he was going to run again. they could not get it together to figure out who it was that they wanted to put their support behind us because we all knew that if it was going to be a splintered republican primary, that the focus and everything was going to go towards donald trump. and, by the way, all these indictments make him a martyr. there is so much power in

martyrdom and i think that is something that democrats need to be something careful about. >> we're going to leave it on a cliff hanger because he said -- so you've got to stand by and come back because there's much more on our breaking news. we'll talk with one of the lead investigators on the january six committee on what surprised him and michael fanone will also join us. this is cnn's special live coverage. the first time you connected your godaddy website and your store was also the first time you realized... well, we can do anything. cheesecake cookies? the ookie! manage all your sales om one place with a partner that always pu you first. (we did it) start today at godaddy.com julian's about to learn that free food is a personal eating trigger. no, it isn't. (sigh) yes, it is. and that's just a bit of psychology

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