name before the election? >> yeah. we will see what they decide to do. paula reid, i'm sure we will be here on thursday. thank you. >> kaitlan, and it seems like we are always saying words to the effect of this day or that one has been historic. at some point, perhaps, we will also find the right way to describe this sensation, knowing the next one is just days away. >> and it is, thursday, just two days from now, whether in person or by video link, a former american president will face charges for doing what no president has ever been accused of before. >> and of, course we will be there when he does. right now, though, the news is going to continue -- thank you so much for joining, us we will turn things over to cnn prime time with laura coates and erin burnett. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> our special breaking news coverage continues now, the third criminal indictment of former president donald trump, i'm erin burnett in new york.

>> and i'm laura coates in washington, d.c.. look, this indictment is like nothing we've actually ever seen before in the history of this entire country and looking at it in black and white is absolutely extraordinary. it begins with this, everyone. quote, the defendant, donald j trump, was the 45th president of the united states and a candidate for reelection in 2020. the defendent lost the 2020 presidential election. >> as you say, laura, it begins that way with those simple words. he lost. that is a fact, but of course the person who had sworn to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution instead tonight is accused in this 45 -page indictment of trying to overthrow americas free and fair elections in an attempt to stay in power. it has been 1001 days since the 2020 election exactly. it has been 137 days since the january 6th attack on the capitol. it is now, though, and only now that donald trump has been

indicted on four criminal counts -- , conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights, laura. >> it's extraordinary to think about that being on the screen, that being a former president of the united states, let alone the fact that this is now the third, the third criminal indictment of the former president, and by the way that is just this year alone, really in four months, also not about hush money. this is not that. this is not about the classified document. this one is about a threat to our democracy. i mean, listen to what special counsel jack smith had to say about it tonight. >> the attack on our nation's capital on january 6th of 2021 i was an unprecedented assault on the seat of american democracy. it is described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies.

lies by the defendant, targeted out obstructing a bedrock function of the u.s. government, the nation's process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election. >> let's take a step back, everyone, for a moment here, and let's begin with exactly what we've actually learned tonight from this historic indictment. correspondent evan perez is actually at the courthouse in washington, d.c.. evan, i mean, another historic indictment against the former president. walk us through exactly what is being alleged tonight. >> the former president obviously stands now as the first ever president to be indicted for crimes that he committed while he was in office. and that is what we have here in this 45-page indictment. these four charges stem from what the former prosecutor said, jack smith side was it was

essentially three conspiracies. all of them built on a web of lies. the former president along with his coconspirators who are not named here, but we have course have identified them specifically because we've been reporting on everything that has happened since january 6th on the efforts to overturn the election. and what is most important in this is that this indictment, in this indictment, the special counsel jack smith says that the former president knew he had lost the election -- he knew that these were false claims about voter fraud. he was told, they list all of the different people and the former president's own government, from his vice president, from the former attorney general, from his acting attorney general, his head of homeland security. people who were there to secure the elections, his intelligence community, his white house counsel, everyone was informing him that these claims were false.

and yet he persisted in listening to people like rudy giuliani, who is listed in here, he is not named. we've identified him as coconspirator number one. john eastman, a former lawyer who was helping him to come up with this fake elector plot, and helping him also come up with this idea that mike pence could overturn the election results. one of the most important things of this, though, in this indictment is that they clearly say that like every american, the former president had the right to say that he had lost the election, he had a right to challenge the results. he had a right to live. what he did not have a right to do, according to jack smith and the prosecution here, is, you know, to engage in these conspiracies with his codefendants. what they say here, they say it's conspiracy to defraud the united states by using dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impair, obstruct, and the lawful federal government function, which has to certify the results of the election.

they also say he was a conspiracy to obstruct and impede the january 6th official proceeding. a ceremonial proceeding. and then a conspiracy against the right to vote, denying the right of americans to have their vote counted, laura. >> i mean, evan, it is striking to think about that. in that one paragraph you were referencing, the idea of you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. evan perez, thank you so much. erin? >> all right, laura, let's go to christian holmes. she is in new jersey just a few moments away from donald trump's golf club, which is where he is right now. kristen, i know he's been -- you've been reporting various phone conversations, including one with at least a five talking about gop response. he's been busy tonight. what has the reaction been as you've been hearing it from people around him, as this new indictment, the news of it, the details of it are sinking in? >> it's exactly what you would expect. and they are painting this as political, something that they

really have been doing since the beginning, and they really feel at this point that they had some ground to stand. on that is because of recent polling that shows donald trump is still leading in the primary. they say it shows he is -- could likely be the nominee, and that this is political. of course, as we know, donald trump likes to play things out in the court of public opinion. now, earlier today, talking to kaitlan collins, one of trump's lawyers laid out what might be one of their legal strategies. take a listen. >> our focus is on the fact that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. and there is nothing more protected under the first amendment than political speech. that the, and our defense is going to be focusing on the fact that what we have now is an administration that has criminalized and the free speech and advocacy of a prior administration during a time that there is a political election going on. >> erin, i want to make one

thing clear. i don't know if this lawyer will argue this a trial, if there is a trial. part of this is just putting this into the public narrative. part of this is saying that this is why the biden doj is bringing this. that is what trump wants. they want to be convincing voters that that is why this is happening, not because donald trump has committed any sort of crime. whether or not this is actually a legal argument could hold up in, trial hold up in a court of law. it really is not what we are looking at right now, what they are looking at. they are watching a response of this that they try to again get voters behind him. and as i've been reporting all night, when i speak to these voters on the road, they are behind him. i have heard a number of voters saying they believe it is a two tiered justice system. they believe what he is saying. again, looking at those polls from earlier in the week, it is clear that at least some republicans, or some voters are standing behind donald trump. something to keep in mind. we talked about how

unprecedented this is, as we talk about historic this is. this is the man who is running for president still, for the third time. and he is leading the field in the primary onstage. >> absolutely. we will speak to one of those people running against him, will hurd, the former congressman, in just a few moments. thank you, kristen. laura, it is amazing, though. in the context of all of this, this unprecedented history making indictment, you still have a country in the latest polls split 43 to 43 in terms of biden versus trump. it is pretty incredible to think about that. >> it is. there is even a fundraising that this seems to be something that is a bit of a feather in the cap of this person who is running and still a presumptive front runner. i wanna bring in my panel here in washington, d. c.. former trump white house lawyer jim schultz. i've got to tell you, first of, all the lawyers in the room have been -- ever since we heard from this, we were in the green room like, what, what was the argument being made? you want a former trump white house lawyer, i've got to know

what your reaction is to the fact that this indictment is here, it isn't full black and white. >> it is a very thorough, it is very smart, and it's very careful. i will start with careful. it is careful in that they took the first amendment issues and addressed it. they got it off the table, right? they addressed the issue of he has this right to free speech. he can say a lot of things. what he cannot do is conspire to overturn the outcome of the election. he was very smart in that he kept the focus, co-conspirators out of the indictment. i think it's very smart. what it does is it signals that donald trump was in charge of this, and everybody else was being used as his tool, to accomplish's goal. i think that is the message they were trying to send when they left out those coconspirators. >> is it smart, though, from the actual defense council? we obviously don't know that's going to be -- we've already seen how this goes. the idea of having people on, trump's lawyers, they are no longer there any longer.

but on the front of the first amendment and the political speech, it seems to be from the lawyers perspective the, look, every kind of speech is protected. this is an example of a weaponization based on political speech. do you buy that? >> i don't, i don't. i don't think a jury is going to buy that. right? i think the way they crafted this and said, yes, he has the right to say whatever he wants in the political realm. he does it all the time. what they are saying here is you can't conspire with others to lie to people and lie to folks to get them to overturn the outcome of an election, lie to the electors, lie to, you know, essentially lie about everything associated with that election in order to commit fraud. >> i mean, look, norm is bursting at the saints. he's like, hold on a second, i want to get in something. >> as you, know i used to practice law with john lauro. so he has to say something, right? how do you defend this egregious conduct that is laid out in this massive document? of course, you are going to say

first amendment. but there are limits. i can't go into the bank and say, stick them up, give me all the money in the cash jar, and say first amendment, you can't prosecute me. >> defamation as well, right? >> yes. and then he says, oh, his second argument was advice of counsel, eastman was one of the most preeminent client is a businessman. no. these arguments that eastman were making were bizarre. they were off the wall. the constitution doesn't let mike pence march in there. >> do you agree with that? >> i agree with them wholeheartedly. the constitution does not permit mike pence to go in and do those things, right? he did the right thing by coming forward and said, i'm not going to do it. he said he wouldn't do it, the president went out and tweeted, he said he would do it. >> i might need some ice skates because these two agree wholeheartedly.

hell has frozen over. take notes, climate change, of why i. >> the first amendment argument, as you've said, is perhaps unlikely to work in a court of law. but in the court of public opinion, especially in a republican primary, i see it being very potent. >> why? >> here's why. if you look at the other things he's been accused, of let's take the mar-a-lago documents, donald trump is always positioning himself as i am the one standing between the deep state, the democrats, and you. they really want to come after people like you. on the mar-a-lago documents, they want to prevent people from keeping documents in their bathrobe? that one is a little harder to make that case. >> and what do they classify as that? >> a lot of republicans feel very strongly that they are not allowed to say things that he believed to be true. it's not just about the 2020 election, whether it is covid and its origins, whether it's all sorts of stuff about social and political issues. they believe, i am not allowed to say this in society and they come after me. this really taps into an emotional argument that many

republicans will say, yes, i am with them. >> laura, that is true, i travel the country all the time, many republicans view themselves as a pawn in an overall political game. it's not just democrats they dislike and distrust. it's the republican establishment that they dislike and distrust. to that very salient point, donald trump, for them, is their final arbiter against this entire political mechanism that is against them, these elites, these highly educated individuals telling them how they should live their lives, telling them what is best for them. >> or what is true or not. >> or what's true or what's not. they believe those things as being fundamentally offensive to them. in many ways, a violation of their very freedoms. donald trump in a very unique, interesting way has presented himself as the only individual who is standing up for them, whether that may be true or not. there's a reason why 65% of americans believe the country is headed in the wrong

direction. look at the approvals between trump and biden, 41% approval of joe biden right now, 43% approve of donald trump. that's why there is a statistical tie at 43 to 43. >> but do you know why i think this whole issue, among the republican primary, the whole first amendment thing, the whole trump base, they feel like they are the ones everyone else is going after? it's because no one else in the republican primary has had the guts and the backbone to say, donald trump is wrong. to say, donald trump is not the leader that this country deserves. i heard earlier on our air governor, new hampshire governor christie knew saying that he was very concerned about this indictment because it was very clear, everything you said james, it was also very simple. the simplicity of what is laid out is so very clear for anyone to really understand. and i think his point was, look, this will absolutely continue to be fodder forlica base, especially the maga base, right? everyone who supports donald trump. but governor sununu is right.

you will not have independents, suburban women going to say, oh, yeah, now i'm going to support donald trump even more. >> everyone, great point. stick around, we have a lot more to talk about. a lot more to unpack. erin? >> laura, let's bring in one of trump's 2024 rivals, the republican presidential candidate will heard now. congressman, i appreciate your time. here we are, 45-page sleeping indictment. you just heard laura speaking to the former trump white house lawyer jim schultz when he was saying he thought it was very well laid out and very strong. what sort of stands out to you the most about it that you've had a chance to read through it? >> look, i think it is real simple. this is not about the weaponization of the government. this is not about the people that serve on granaries in washington, d. c.. this is about donald trump losing the election, trying to use everything possible within

his power to overturn that election, failing to accomplish that, and now running for reelection so that he stays out of prison. this is real simple. we need to recognize that he needs to be held accountable, and everybody who is sick and tired of donald trump. we will not see donald trump go away because of these legal cases. he needs to be beat in a primary. and, yes he is the presumptive nominee the elections are 25 weeks away. there are more people that would rather not see donald trump on, as the republican nominee or on the ballot ever again. those people are the ones that have to get activated, the vote in primaries and that's how we are going to solve this problem of donald trump once and for all. >> how do you make this argument, though, congressman, to republican voters? obviously the majority of republican voters don't think

trump has done anything wrong. it's very strong, very consistent. i put it out earlier because it stood out to me, only about half of independents in the latest poll from npr and pbs and maris agree that trump has done anything illegal. only about half of independents. i mean, they are not even voting in your primary. how will you convince your voters? fine, it can be as detailed and full proof of an indictment as possible, but what moves the needle here? >> national polls are given the local polls, polling is different than voter i. d.. when you start drilling down in a place like new hampshire, there is significantly more people that dislike donald trump than like donald trump and. in a place like new hampshire, 40% of the folks that are going to vote in a primary are unaffiliated voters. these are people that take their responsibilities seriously and are going to get

engaged, elections always tighten the closer you get to the election and so the case to be made is actually show up and talk about this and show that you are not afraid. this is what the gop needs. we need someone who is not afraid of donald trump but is also articulating a vision. it's hard, don't get me wrong, it is hard, it's just not complicated. it requires work and effort and requires activating a group of people that are going to vote in that primary that have not traditionally voted. there are examples of being able to pull this off. we need folks who are willing to do that and if the folks watching today want to see me on that debate stage and help me do that, and go two will hurd for america. com and help me out by donating at least $1. >> congressman, you are being clear about where you stand. governor asa hutchins, informally from arkansas, he's been cleared also. chris christie, obviously, former governor of new jersey, he's been clear. the there is you three. then there's others, including the governor of florida, ron desantis. he just came out tonight, he's making no bones about.

it he didn't bother to read it. he said, while i have seen the reports, i've not read the indictment. i do believe we need to enact reform so americans have the right to remove cases from washington, d. c., their home districts. washington, d. c., as a swamp. he says no more excuses, i will end the -- he is saying it is actually not worth reading. >> look, i get why ron desantis is scared of donald trump. ron desantis wouldn't be governor of florida if it wasn't for donald trump. rhonda scent is it is also someone who thinks there is an upside to slavery. this is not the guy who is going to be the savior of the gop. anybody running in this race who is afraid to criticize donald trump is not prepared to be president of the united states. and this is part of the problem of, you know, everyone is

trying to audition for his vice president or something in his cabinet, rather than explaining to the american people, explaining to gop voters about, if we want to make sure that we are done with joe biden, if we want to make sure joe biden is accountable for the allegations about abusing his position to help his son, if we want to deal with things like actually fixing the border, then we have to win elections. and putting donald trump as our nominee, we are going to get four more years to donald trump because there is no independent, there is no democrat that is tired of the direction the democratic party is going that will all of a sudden, 25 weeks from now, that is the primary, that is going to vote for a donald trump. and, so we need candidates willing to take it through donald trump. >> all, right congressman will hurd, i appreciate your time. thank you very much. >> always a pleasure. >> let's go straight to my panel here. let me start with you. i just talked about what ron desantis said. he is certainly not alone, right?

at least a phonic has said, a senior member in the gop house, had a conversation with point -- trump tonight, the whole point of it was how she could help more republicans and get house republicans to stay behind it. marjorie taylor greene has just tweeted, i will still vote for trump even if he is in jail. this is a communist attack on americas first amendment to vote on who the people want for president. just putting that aside, wrong amendment, this is the sentiment among many in the gop. >> it is the sentiment among most of what i would consider to be the establishment of the gop. we used to think of trump and the trump folks as kind of -- >> changing the word establishment. >> this is what the establishment leadership of the party, at least a good chunk of it believes and is willing to his bows publicly. most of the presidential candidates will be on roughly the same message, weaponize government, i am not going to -- i'm going to replace the head of the fbi. that kind of stuff.

it is all very, very similar and coordinated by trump, who is the de facto head of the republican party, which is the establishment opinion. i don't think you will see people deviate from that too much, as long as he remains as popular among republicans as he is. there is a smaller faction of people who believe what will hurd believes. but will is at 0% in the primary. if you consider political parties to be derivatives of the opinion of the people who consider themselves to be members, none of the reactions to surprise you. you >> are at a point of pride, making a point about desantis, right? the point they are making is it's not even worth reading this. forget how well written it, is forget how well reasoned it, is forget how foolproof it, is it's not worth reading because it's a weaponized document. that's their argument. >> this will not help him, but i like will hurd, i think he's a decent public servant. where he was wrong today was talking about desantis being

afraid of donald trump. i don't think these candidates are that afraid of donald. trump they may be, i don't know. but they are certainly afraid of donald trump's voters, which maybe is what -- they are afraid of the voters. i don't know how you get nominated in the donald trump maga party and be against donald trump. donald trump is a defining factor of whether or not you are considered legitimate or legitimate. i've got a friend, hassan jeffries, whose brother, hakeem jeffries, the minority leader. hassan is a professor in ohio. he said to me, donald trump is the first president we've had who is not bound by either party, principle, or patriotism. and if you think about it that way, he is completely uncontrollable, it is a tragedy that here we are in the beginning of, the late beginning of the 21st century and we've had the united states president who really is not a patriot, he's the least patriotic person we've ever seen in the office. >> i will say, and i'm not trying to make light, marjorie taylor greene's tweet, harry, but it is, we are at a point where there seems to be an

incredible lack of knowledge about basic things like the constitution and how government works. in the space of that lack of knowledge, it has been filled with lack of respect and lack of trust. >> into the breach. look, from a lawyer's perspective, you've got the lawyers on the side here, they only have the same thing to do, try to ignore that part and think what jack smith is going to do and hope he will be able to make that case. to me, the indictment was very interesting because we are blitzing through it, does he have this coconspirator? you can imagine this was wordsmith, so to speak, very carefully for a long time. he decided to tell a story. there were many ways you could've told a story. he is telling the story about truth and lies. as you said in the very first sentence, he lost the election, forget about that. but you go through, then, the paragraphs, fraudulent, lie, again and again. and that really, rather than other kinds of sort of abuse of power as what anchors everything about the story. it will be interesting, i agree. there is no first amendment argument that he can try to

make with that rather than some more crass power play is the way that smith has chosen to frame this and very carefully. >> so ryan, back to these coconspirators. now that we know who at least five of the six of them are, they are not listed as unindicted, so maybe they are already indicted. maybe this is some effort to get themo rn. i don't know. how important is finding that information out to understanding to where this goes from here? >> i think it's important in the sense that these co-conspirators might very well flip. there's a lot of pressure on them in this indictment. in many ways, because the indictment actually has allegations that put them in greater criminal jeopardy than even president trump, because there is strong evidence that giuliani knew that there was fraud, there was not fraud, that he was making it up. that giuliani and cheeseborough agreed that the false slate of

electors were not truly contingent on the litigations. they lost the election, they were going to send across the face electors. all this information about them, that's an remorse amount pressure on these people to flip. i do think that is phase two of what is coming. >> karen, to this point, i don't put too much emphasis on this because i know that there is a wide range of latitude. but these charges bring with them a maximum of 20 years into cases. these are very serious very long times anybody could be spending in prison. the judge, tanya s. chutkan, is known for being very tough on sentencing. >> the pressure is extraordinary. >> absolutely extraordinary for them to cooperate if they can tell the truth. because you have to be able to, in order to cooperate, you have to be able to admit to what you did, admit to all of it and do it truthfully, and we will see if people like rudy giuliani are capable of telling the truth at this point. because they have really dug in. so deeply and so entrenched in

believing or being part of this lie and this world. we will see. i do think it is stunning that normally, indictment say unindicted coconspirator number one, unindicted co-conspirator number two. here they say co-conspirator. as harry was saying, this is very much wordsmith. every word is painstakingly gone over by 100 people. they chose to take out the word unindicted, which to me says they are indicted. >> as you point, out every were chosen and everywhere not in, obviously, chosen as well. i'll stay with us as our special coverage continues. laura? >> -- i'm still waiting to find out, i know our reporting identified the first five. who is the sixth co-conspirator? >> who is number six? >> who is behind this door? we might be surprised. in the wake of the charges against former president trump, there are, of course, comparisons that are coming to

mind about watergate. next, john dean will weigh in, plus daniel goldman, who is the lead counsel, and then president trump's first impeachment, with cnn's special live coverage. ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. hi, i'm sharon, and i lost 52 pounds on golo. before golo, i felt sick, i felt sluggish, i was diabetic, and my cholesterol was high. i would always be bloated and my stomach was always upset. now my stomach is flat. i'm happy with how golo has made me look, but what's more important is how i feel.

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listen up, you dogs with allergic itch! today's talking lesson is just one word:

apoquel. ap--o--quel. ♪ you can't teach your itchy dog to talk... ...so, talk to your vet about apoquel. apoquel is for the control of allergic itch in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs with serious infections. apoquel may increase the chances of developing serious infections... ...and may cause existing parasitic skin infections or pre-existing cancers to worsen. new neoplasias have been observed. i'm glad we speak the same language. ask your vet for apoquel. >> i'm erin burnett back with

laura coates, of course. it's not just a ladies indictment against former president trump that is causing massive legal issues for him. there are other serious cases against. and this adds to a mounting crisis for the former president. tom foreman is standing by to explain all of this to us. tom, what are, now that you've got this latest indictment, what are the other cases trump is dealing? with it's >> hard to keep up with all of this because there is a consolation of problems about him, different courts, different judges, different cases. the classified talks, case and indictment, the hush money payments and indictment, the e. jean carroll lawsuit was fined liable, the georgia election interference, that is the grand, jury seems like it's about to come out. maybe the doj investigation we have now is another indictment and more. look at the classified documents case. he he is accused of mishandling classified document, dilley -- what nauta and his property manager there.

he and nauta have both denied doing anything wrong but this is currently supposed to come to trial in may of 2024, the hush money case. this is up in new york state where he tried to get it moved to federal court. the judge said, no, this is an embarrassing thing you did when you are a private citizen trying to become the president. this stays where it is. accused of conspiracy to undermine an election, accused of unlawful plans to suppress information. the accusation is he passed money to his attorney, michael cohen, the stormy daniels to hide things he did want people to know about his personal relationships there. that case again, he is denying do anything wrong. that could be the other case by coming out in march of next year. that is two of them that are in addition to what we heard today, erin. >> it's just two of them and these are cases where you already have charges, right? you already have a process in place. they are still could be more coming.

>> absolutely. this is the stuff that is baked and now. this is for real now. this is happening. look at the georgia election you mentioned a moment ago. this has been in the works for more than two years now, fani willis, the fulton county district attorney says we are ready to go looking at the efforts to overturn the election results there. we heard the presidents call to the secretary of state trying to find the votes he wanted down there. she says there will be a charging decision announced by september 1st. maybe they won't charge him but if they do that is another one that goes on the docket and then we have followups on the e. jean carroll case with arizona looking into what he might have done there. and i think, erin, constantly with donald trump, the former president, you have to think of the wildcards. the things we haven't even thought of yet or that we realized out of these cases, all of which, put aside the election, puts a very, very busy legal document in front of him. it's >> incredible. you are looking at that, you juxtapose it with the political calendar.

i mean, it is incredible to think what the country is going to be watching during what should be an election process. tom, thanks so much. laura. >> unbelievable to think about all of that swirling around the former president of the united states. that's the investigations are those who were associates, those are just ones involving really him. the language in this indictment against donald trump is strong and precise. they say keep it simple, stupid. you think about how to write something that is a story and relays the information. special counsel jack smith is alleging trump was so determined to remain in power that he, quote, launched his criminal scheme and that he's bed spread pervasive and destabilizing lies about election fraud that he knew were false. joining me now is john dean, former nixon white house counsel. john, i am so glad to see you. i have to say i'm not even sure we could use the word unprecedented. i think it meant something maybe two indictments, two

impeachments ago. can you believe that what all of this happening right now is really become almost a routine. this notion about a former president being indicted three times in four months. did you ever think we'd be here? >> never, never. the stakes went up considerably with this indictment. what is really on trial in this case it is democracy. if trump can get away with what he has done, what is spelled out in this indictment, our system of law no longer works and our election system is in jeopardy. he, in effect, we'll have pulled off a coup. this is a big stakes case. >> it could mean to that point in the idea of if there is no accountability pursued, presumption of innocence is still there with good reason in a democracy and a justice system. that would mean it would be the subversion of the peaceful transfer of power, he's being charged with, and trying to keep himself in office is extremely consequential.

but to your larger point, and i'm reminiscing of course a ford and nixon, some say because it goes to the core of our democracy, it is not good to have a former president of the united states punished or have the prospect of punishment. do you buy that? >> well, in an earlier panel, i was listening to the reaction describing how republicans are dealing with this. and they are politicizing it. they are trying to take this case in the public arena. the court of public opinion, and make it a political case. that won't happen in a courtroom, of course, as you well know. politics will be pushed aside and they will look at the facts. but as you politicize this, you really do change the dimensions of the case. that is troubling.

>> i'm reminded of that saying, you will know this, well if the president does, it it is not illegal. well, the defense counsel for trump, and obviously i'm paraphrasing, seem to suggest if it is spoken, there's automatically covered by the first amendment. what do you make of that initial defense? >> i don't think that is going to work. in fact, i think the crafting of this indictment really avoided that issue. they don't rely on his steal the vote speech, on the ellipse. it is really focused on his behavior, not first amendment protected, as one analogy was given earlier, you can't go in a bank and, say stick them up and say, claim the first amendment. i was expressing myself. that is what -- when you have a conspiracy, the words that bring their conspiracy together are not first amendment protected, i assure you. lots of law on that. >> don, do you think the other co-conspirators are going to be charged?

they are not currently on this heading in caption, as you know. but we've identified at least five of the six, we are waiting to figure out who the reporting might be to that sixth. do you see them being co-conspirators, codefendants, or charged? >> it is interesting that they are named as conspirators in this indictment. that has implications for the evidence that is admissible during the trial. but what happens to them as to whether they will be charged separately, i suspect that is the case. they are trying to probably get them to cooperate. they've made it very clear, they've described their behavior. -limited but sufficient to identify them, all except the sixth, which i am scratching my head on as well. but i think that is the effort. they want to indict them, if they don't cooperate. they will have to pay for the folly the engaged in with trump. >> john, dean always good to

hear from. you we will hear a lot more in the days to come, i'm sure. let's go back to our panel here in washington, d. c.. shannon, i'm really eager to get your perspective on all of this. we've heard a lot, we have heard first amendment claims, we heard about from jack smith talking about, really not in a vacuum that this is a grand jury, obviously, with probable cause, these are just allegations. we've talked a lot about the fact that the mar-a-lago documents case might be less complex than the january 6th case. did he make a powerful statement in this indictment to streamline this? >> i think he, did i think the indictment reads very well as a narrative, it was carefully wordsmith that way. what you open with in that first paragraph, it's about the fact that trump lost, that is so central because it is about the fact, the fact that he lost and what he allegedly did to overturn that loss. and that's what the indictment is really about. in that sense, it really takes

away the notion of what do you as the country believes. it's not about whether you believe he won or lost, it's about the fact that, legally, if he had lost and what he allegedly did illegally to overturn it. it comes down to that. i think the indictment a streamline the really vast efforts that were made in different ways. doj, electors, pressuring pence, all of that. it is so interesting to see john dean on. after, all nixon was vice president and had to certify his lost to canada. >> the irony is just there. jack smith, in a way, who is making a but in this case compared to mar-a-lago. >> he is. as jim said, the reason you name one defendant, the reason you tell this very simple story that you can lay out in one paragraph, he didn't want to admit he lost her so he squeezed the state officials and legislatures, he squeezed his own doj, he got those phony, counterfeit electoral slates. i can no more use one of those then you can a three dollar

bill. when that didn't work, he applied the screws to pants and finally exploited the violence. that is simple. it is three conspiracies. defraud the united states, obstruct congress, and take away all our civil rights. 81 million biden voters, at least, civil rights. why do you do that? to go to trial and go to trial fast. and that is the bet. he is going to put this case before the american people, we are going to get a jury verdict. i think we will get one within the year. and then these polls, you know, trump, biden, 50/50, the american people are going to make a choice. that is the way it should be. >> you are nodding your head. you think so? >> there's a little something from everyone. the former chief of staff, the vice president and his notes, contemporaneous notes.

the former chief of staff, political advisers, and then folks that mcgahn might call the swamp, people who are doj, folks who've been in doj for years, but that are trusted folks in the department of justice, the office of legal counsel. deputy of counsel to the president. the council to the president. all of those folks kind of saying the same thing that we lost the election and we can't do this. >> that's a good point. the idea that in any other context it seems to rely on the people he's trusted, unless they are no longer yes men. stand by everyone. erin? >> laura, next, the surprising role mike pence played in this indictment, as you read through it it is really fascinating. plus, former d. c. officer michael fanone will react to the indictment more than two years after he was attacked on january 6th.

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>> well, we are following the breaking news of now the third criminal indictment of former president donald trump, in four months. he is now charged with four counts in connection to those efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election, and as he faces a new legal fight over 2020, he still has to manage a campaign schedule to try to win in 2024. in october, trump goes on trial in new york to defend against

charges of fraud in his business. and then in january, on the same day as the iowa caucus is, by the way, and one month before the south carolina primary, the former president will face off against e. jean carroll, who as you know has sued him for defamation. fast forward to march, there are more than 20 primaries that month alone and trump will face a jury in a criminal case -- running the hush money payments to adult film actress stormy daniels. the judge has warned he much -- pull him off the campaign trail for several weeks. in case you thought that come ring he could just go full force into the final months of the campaign, no. he is doing florida and may for his criminal trial tied to his handling of classified documents once he left office. a lot, erin. >> the drumbeat and as you point, out we don't know this schedule. that is what it is now, but dates move and everything

shifts as it is a constantly moving. based joining me now, our senior political commentator david axelrod. david, in that context, how does someone even navigate this as a campaign person, as a voter? i mean, we've obviously never seen anything like this before. >> yeah, exactly. it's not exactly handbook on what to do if you are a candidate facing multiple trials in the case of a campaign. it's never happened before. but, erin in certain ways, this whole legal tussle has become trump's campaign. he has used these cases as a rallying point. you, know in a weird way, the more indictments that are piled on, the more he makes the case that it's all just an effort to stop him. and i don't know how they will manage his time, but he is certainly going to use these trials and use these prosecutions to try and press his case that he is a victim, and that he is being persecuted because he is a threat to joe biden, he could be president

again, and that the elites and the deep state want to stop him. that has become the essence of his campaign. so we're going to hear a lot of that. maybe from the courtroom steps and not in town squares along the campaign trail. but that is what he's kind of -- listen, the danger here is donald trump, from the beginning, from the time he came down that escalator, it was very clear he does not believe in rules or laws or norms or institutions. he thinks the world is the hunger games and the strong take what they want however they need to, and a weak fall away. so when he lost the election, he had no problem trying to persuade the election had been stolen from him.

and we saw some of that laid out in this indictment. today and now in this campaign, he is under enormous pressure. he's decided that he is going to navigate it by persuading americans that the system of justice in our country is corrupt, the prosecutors are corrupt, and that the fbi is corrupt. and this is really a moment of peril for our country because he is very good at this. >> yes. >> as i mentioned to you earlier, 70% of republicans still believe that the election was stolen because he's told them that. and now, many believe on that side that the system is indeed corrupt. you hear a lot of republican politicians echoing his mean. >> i'm curious what you think from your role, obviously having been in the white house and worked with the former president, obama, as well as biden himself, about mike pence's role in all of this.

he came out tonight. he's obviously very specifically laid out in this indictment. right? he's a player in it in the fact that he took contemporaneous notes, we now know, of his interactions with trump. his statement after he sees the indictment, tonight on january 6th, former president trump decided i choose between him the constitution. i chose the constitution. i always will. pence's former chief of staff, marc short, goes on fox and says trump asked pence to overturn the election. in the gop, who listens to statements like these at this point? >> listen, i think one of the tragedies of this, you know, wherever -- however you feel about pence or politics is here's a guy who was probably as loyal to donald trump as a person could be as vice president. through all the controversies and all of the crises, he held firm for donald trump. but the one thing he was not

willing to do was defy the constitution and overturn a lawful election. and for that, he has been purged. here is mike pence sitting here tonight, the former sitting vice president of the united states, we don't even know if he is going to be in the debate on august 23rd because he hasn't mustered enough support to qualify as fundraising is anemic, his polling is anemic. even among evangelical voters, who were his base before he got together with donald trump, that's why trump picked him to be his ambassador, the evangelical vote. trump has the majority of them in iowa, and pence is at 4%. this is the price that mike pence has paid for being, for that moment of such extraordinary importance and courage when he refused to do what the president wanted him to do. but he is paying a big price for it. >> that's pretty incredible

when you think about it. david oxarat, thank you very much. >> good day, erin. >> laura? >> imagine that mike pence might very well be testifying against the person, he was so loyal to. my panel is back with me right. now for everyone wondering when was chris christie going to weigh in, well, he has. let me read to you a little bit of what he says. this is on twitter. he says the events around the white house from election night forward are a stain on our country's history and a disgrace to the people who participated. this disgrace falls the most on donald trump. he swore an oath to the constitution, violated his oath, and brought shame to his presidency.

it does -- one of the more outspoken critics of donald trump. it is not getting him a lot in terms of polling, though. >> no. part of that is that there is not a huge appetite in the republican party for a candidate whose primary message is donald trump's bad. that's just not what republican voters are looking for. frankly, even if you are kind of a never trump republican, chris christie is kind of a challenging sale. he was originally one of the establishment figures who stood behind donald trump at the very beginning, when it was possible to stop trump -- maybe not. i think chris christie has got to really have a low ceiling. will you make a debate stage interesting? potentially. >> nobody has a clean hand in politics overall, but you are right about that aspect of it. michael? >> she is right. but the problem is you are running in a republican primary against donald trump. as saline as the point may be that the former governor may, who is listening to this? maybe democrats, maybe some

independents, maybe the 25% of never trumper's. but the 20 -- 37% that trump already has, they are not listening. the 37%, 70% of which are more persuadable to trump, they are not listening. then you have 12% that -- you have 6% either way. >> are we doing math right now? >> who are you talking, to laura? i'm not sure. >> you should have a message against your opponent -- >> i think you should. >> and the timing right now, there is a moment right after the midterms where i do think republicans were saying, maybe we want to look somewhere else. but then the last couple of months, every month that i've done my polling, donald trump's lead over the second place contender grows by eight to 10%. >> this is the point. it is a way too late now for republicans to say, oh, we don't want donald trump. there were so many of them saying that at the very beginning, you are right. even right after the 2020 election. people knew republicans knew that he was going to run again. and they could not get it together to figure out who it was that they wanted to put their support behind. because we all knew that if if it was going to be a splintered republican primary, the focus and everything else that was going to go toward donald trump. by the way, all of these indictments make him a martyr. there is so much power in

martyrdom. i think that is something democrats need to be careful about. >> good point. we will come back for more. we will leave a cliff-hanger because you said laura. we've gotta standby, we've gotta come right back. there is much more on our breaking news. we will talk with one of the lead investigators on the january 6th committee, on what surprised him, and michael fanone will also join us for this cnn special live coverage.

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