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the person who swore protect the constitution is accused of overthrowing the election. >> unprecedented assault on the seat of american democracy. >> our focus is on the fact that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. >> it's a tremendous shift in the argument. >> this is from certainly one of the top constitutional lawyers in our country. >> what's the unlawful means? there was an effort to get alternate electors. >> trying to -- >> which is a protocol that was -- >> donald trump participated in each substantially and personally. >> he is more nervous because so many other folks involved. >> my father-in-law, donald trump, who did exactly what you would want a president to do -- >> the only person or people whose view matters are the jurors who will eventually be sat and listen to the facts. >> will anyone else face charges and will more details be revealed?

>> welcome to our special coverage. good morning, everyone. a really significant day for america, certainly a day that history will remember. looking ahead to tomorrow, because former president donald trump will appear in a d.c. courtroom tomorrow after a federal grand jury returned an historic indictment against the former president for his alleged role in trying to overturn the 2020 election in order to stay in power. city and federal law enforcement officials preparing for that appearance tomorrow. trump's campaign calls the indictment, quote, election interference, even going so far as to baselessly call it, quote, reminiscent of nazi germany. the special counsel jack smith spoke publicly to underline the seriousness and gravity of all of this. . i the attack on our inauguration's capitol on january 6th, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of american democracy.

it's described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies. lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the u.s. government, the anynation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election. >> also this morning, we are starting to get a pretty good sense of what trump's defense will look like. his lawyer responded to a -- to the criminal indictments moments ago. >> the government in a criminal case has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt criminal intent and corrupt intent. they have to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that, number one, president trump did not believe that all these irregularities were true, and number two, that he did something to could be interruptly obstruct trustis and they can't prove that because everything he did was to get at the truth. the bottom line is that they have 60 federal agents working on this. 60 lawyers. all kinds of government

personnel, and we get this indictment and they want to go to trial in 90 case. does that sound like justice to you. >> the former president faces four cril counts, conspiracy to dra the united states, two counts, obstruction of an official proceeding and a charge against conspiring to deprive people of civil rights provided under federal law or the constitution. the top charges carry a maximum of 20 years in prison. kaitlan po lants joins us now. he has been summoned to appear in a d.c. courtroom tomorrow, what's that gonna look like? >> reporter: we are still waiting to confirm that he will be here in person. right now the expectation is that donald trump will need to come to court in person to face these charges for the first time. that hearing tomorrow, it will be before a magistrate judge. a judge that typically sees the criminal defendants once they are initially charged, but then hands off the case to the federal district judge that oversees the case to trial.

so the magistrate appearance tomorrow is likely to be just that initial check-in, making sure trump knows his rights, knows what he is charged with, and also he may have the opportunity, very likely will have the opportunity to enter miss initial pleading of not guilty, which is of course expected here and by what his lawyers are saying what is expected through the course of this case to take him the whole way to trial. now, once that is done, then the rest of the court kicks up into focus as we get through all of the things that need to take place to set the parameters of a trial. that will all be before judge tanya chutkan and there is a lot ofions on exactly how this judge will he this case. the prosecutors that she has before her from the special counsel's office and the justice department, they are experienced in this court. they are formerly with the d.c. u.s. attorney's office, so they have tried public integrity cases like this. and so seeing how this court works, how fast it will move,

exactly how it will approach donald trump as a defendant connected to january 6th after this court has seen hundreds of rioter cases and sentenced many of them, that is going to be a really big thing to watch for as the case moves forward. of course, to the other thing, the special counsel's office announced yesterday, is that the investigation does appear to be ongoing, that they continue to look at the actions of other individuals. >> i want to ask you, the president's attorney has been making the rounds. last night and this morning, as part of that he floated the idea -- interesting idea of a change of venue. take a listen. >> would you seek a venue change? >> absolutely. >> where do you want it to go instead? >> there is west virginia. there is other areas -- >> west virginia? >> absolutely. it's in close proximity to d.c. >> the political opposite of washington, d.c.? >> well, it's much more diverse than washington, d.c. 95% for mr. biden. >> one other thing -- >> or other places --

>> i am not sure diverse is the word he was looking for there. what are the chances that actually happens? >> reporter: well, it's an interesting idea. one that is very likely expected. it's not a novel idea, phil and poppy. lots of criminal defendants, especially related to january 6th and related to donald trump, have come to this court before, are set to go to trial here, and have asked to move the venue. typically, they are arguing things -- we don't know what trump will argue, but like they can't have a fair trial because of the political climate in washington, d.c. now, the judges have largely rejected, actually i think they rejected every time that request has been put before them because there are nmechanisms toe make sure that the jury pool is a fair one and that the jurors are talking their responsibility very seriously. we have seen that. we have seen acquittals for

certain counts of january 6th. a reminder of what is really important here, if these cases are wrought in d.c., they are very likely being tried here because the victims are here as well. the actions of january 6th took place in washington, d.c. >> that's a great point. thanks so much. >> let's get a lot more here at the -- with our cnn legal analyst elie honig. the six alleged co-conspirators to our knowledge have not yet been indicted. >> really important that prosecutors chose to use the label co-conspirator or cc 1 through 6 as we use in the lingo. prosecutors don't use that label lightly. it indicates that the prosecutors believe the people were part of the crime. now, will they be charged remains to be seen. often, but not always, cc 1 through 6, do end up charged. what we know. cc 1, co-conspirator 1, lieutenant general, the indictment makes clear he was the point person, spread the false claims of election fraud when other attorneys on donald trump's election team would not do so.

he is listed as the first co-conspirator. number two, john eastman. he is the constitutional scholar who came up with this whole legal strategy that we can pressure mike pence to throw out the electoral votes. a nearly that has been rejected throughout the legal community. number three, sidney powell, the trump lawyer who came up with unfounded claims of election fraud that donald trump, according to the indictment, described those as crazy. when we talk about intent, donald trump -- >> good point. >> that's a key part. indictment. donald trump said sidney powell's theories crazy. number four, jeffrey clark. he was a doj official and his role was to try to weaponize doj, tried to get doj to open investigations based on bogus claims. he tried to get doj to pressure states. number five was another attorney, kenneth chesebro, who was involved in the scheme to submit fake electors. the first five are all laws. this is a dark day for the legal profession. number six we don't know who it

is. it's a political consultant. >> options now? cooperation flip or hold their >> what do we know about the judge nick? randomly assigned. >> yeah. >> but oobs judge chult has been tough on january 6th defendants. >> she was a public defender over a decade. she understands due process and the defendants' rights. she was nominated by president obama, confirmed in 2014. she was confirmed by the senate 95-0. she has been tough on her january 6th defendants. she said of one of them, he didn't go to the united states capitol out of love for our country, he went for one man. that is now the man on trial before her. >> fascinating. thank you very much. phil. >> we learned from the indictment that investigators obtained contemporaneous notes from then-vice president pence. those notes document a conversation five days before the january 6th attack on the capitol where trump berated

pence. pence told trump it was unconstitutional. trump responded, tour too honest. according to the indictment, trump asked pence to obstruct the certification of the election. when pence refused, trump said he would have to publicly criticize him. marc short alerted the head of the vice president's secret service detail because he was concerned for his safety. marc short joins us now. based on your read of the indictment and sense of where the former vice president is on this, do you believe there is clear evidence of criminality? >> you know, it's hard for me to know whether there was cri criminality. i think the president was wrong. one of the biggest shifts we have seen in the last 24 hours, if you just pull back for a second, i think it's pretty tremendous, which is that for two and a half years i think the president and his team argued

that, look, the election was stolen, it was fraudulent, and if i only had my chance to present my evidence, like the court's rejeked the chance to do that, the congress rejected the chance to share my evidence. if he has the evidence, then all these conspiracy charges would go away. but that's not the case that you hear his defense team presenting. instead, they are saying he has a first amendment right, which is in essence saying all elected officials lie. are you going to charge everybody? it's different than it was stolen, to now saying, look, yeah, maybe mike pence was right and really i don't know that it was stolen, but i have a right to tell the american people misrepresentations which i think is a dramatic change in what they have been saying publicly the last 24 hours. >> the indictment details contemporaneous notes that the vice president took. few people closer to him than and now you. how detailed are those notes when he takes them?

>> poppy, i think that the reality is that almost all of those notes are representative -- represented in the vice president's memoir. if anyone is curious -- >> so no more than that -- >> i think they form much of what he wrote in the chapters in the book. >> will he testify? >> i am not sure that he will be called to testify. i think it seems that the -- >> pretty central -- >> well, he is a central part, sure. but i think much of what he represented is public. i think it seems what the charges are, more on the conspiracy front, as opposed to facts of what mike pence did. >> reading through the former vice president's statement last night, it was stronger than most of the others, the republicans that are running for the republican nomination in 2024, save for chris christie, will hurd, yet there are still republicans who say mike pence -- we just had one on, adam kinzinger, talking about how pence was a hero on that day. yet, this is what he said. take a listen. >> mike pence had the

opportunity to, i think, a hero to the republican party, to be the guy that stood by the trump agenda, but then had enough on january 6th. and i don't know where he stands today. you can't be lukewarm, mike. you've got to be either hot or cold. up can't be lukewarm in this. >> what's your response to that? >> i don't think anybody really questions where mike pence stands. i think he did -- what he was called to under the constitution on january 6th. if you go back to his announcement speech less than two months ago, phil, he laid out the case very specifically as to why donald trump should not be president again. if he violates his oath of the constitution, asked his vice president to violate his oath, he laid that out clearly. adam is jaded and upset that vice president pence didn't testify before the january 6th committee and i think that colors his commentary a lot. >> is that you saying that you don't believe vice president mike pence will change his answers to these questions going forward or change or make more

explicit how wrong he thinks it was? i mean, i vividly remember when he spoke with dana bash. he won't go there. are we going to hear the same from him? >> he has been clear on this, poppy. he said that he -- his actions he has written about his his book, he has talked about he doesn't think donald trump should be president again. he is running himself. he said my preference is for the american people to pass judgment on donald trump as opposed to a criminal system that right now i think many of us on the right field it partisan and does have a two-tiered system of justice. so i think his case is let the american people decide. put the facts in front of them and let them and history pass judgment on donald trump. i think that's his preference. having said that, i think that he has been very clear that these charges are real and the reality is that donald trump did ask his vice president to put donald trump above the vice

president's oath of the constitution and he said that very clearly. there is a reason why he is running for office himself. >> there are six unnamed co-conspirators in the indictment. i think you had dealings -- you and the vice president had dealings with a number of them, notably, john eastman, the lawyer who you guys battled with for several days. maybe longer than that. do you believe they should all be indicted? >> you know, again, i think that the president listened to some terrible advice and i think that many of the people that are listed there are the ones offering that advice. to what extent that is criminal, phil, i don't know. i think that we expressed our disagreements with john eastman. i think he had more than novel theories about the vice president's role, something that no vice president in 250 years of our republic ever asserted nor would i think john eastman suggest to you today that he thinks kamala harris should have that authority in 2024 to just unilaterally reject electors

from various states perhaps that are republican. so i think it is wrong in every single way. to the extent of whether or not it's offering a novel theory to the president is criminal, i defer to others who have better judgment on that. >> it's good to have your perspective this morning. former chief of staff, current advisor to former vice president mike pence, marc short. thanks. ahead, strong support from trump -- for jump among republican a allies in congress. we will be joined by one of them straight ahead.

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that serve on grand juries in washington, d.c. this is about donald trump losing the election, trying to use everything possible within his power to overturn that election. >> former congressman will hurd reacting to trump's third inctment. he and chris christie of two of the republican presidential candidates condemning the former president fohis actions. christieayg the events from election night forward are a stain on our country's history. this disgrace falls the most on donald trump. he swore an oath to the constitution, violated his oath and brought shame to the presidency. joining us is a republican who endorsed donald trump. congressman, i appreciate your time. first question i have, one of the responses from the trump campaign was this was reminiscent of nazi germany or stalinist russia. do you believe that's an accurate assessment? >> well, look, i think this is a very dangerous time in our

history. i think this is an incredibly concerning -- i do think this is a weaponization of post-election speech. and i have to say, all of the people who claim that the 2016 election wasn't legitimate, all of the people who claimed in 2004 with a formal objection in the congress that that election wasn't legitimate. in fact, they objected to the point where they said that the voting machines in ohio were tampered with and that president bush was selected, not elected, and not to mention former presidents of the united states and secretary of state, hilary clinton, jimmy carter, and a whole slew of house democrats who repeatedly led the nation to believe, lied to the nation that they said russia selected donald trump as president, that the election was completely illegitimate, all of that was allowed to pass, but yet once again we see a criminalization

when it comes to donald trump. and i think, guys, you're gonna have all kinds of analysts on here diving into the weeds on the electoral count act, on the presidential records act, on all kinds of interpretation of the law. but i hope you don't lose the forrest for the trees that this is dangerously badly eroding public trust in the fairness of the law and the fairness of the department of justice and in our institutions. and that is someone who is out on the ground talking to voters every day and every week, is what i'm seeing -- >> to that point, do you feel like a president who lost an election, lying repeatedly about the vote to his supporters, and then leading and helping attempt to enact a scheme to overturn an election he lost, that that's not divisive, that that isn't problematic, that that doesn't create significant issues inside

the country? >> well, i mean, frankly, it doesn't surprise me that you are presenting that as fact -- >> which parts do you think are not? >> at the time -- at the time that -- that president trump believed he was driving towards the truth, believed the election was being tampered with, that the democrats changed the rules under the guise of covid, in some cases legally or illegally. if he is driving towards the truth, you have to prove intent he knew none of that was true. >> congressman, i'm not asking -- >> i know. but now criminalize that. what i'm saying is that someone, i would think, in the department of justice, should say, hey, folks, let's tap the brakes here. this is not only a former president, it's a sitting candidate who is the leading voice and the leading political candidate against our boss.

this should be a much, much r much higher bar. are it this happens in pakistan. this happens in places around the world, in africa where i served. i never thought i would see it happen here in the united states -- >> right, but -- >> i can't underscore that. >> attempted coups, which i they is the problem here. if you have a higher bar for a former president, isn't that a two-tiered justice system? >> no, that is someone who is exercising prosecutorial discretion. and i do think that there should be some consideration when you have the leading political opponent of the party in power. i mean, that just seems to me to be so obvious, and, look, guys, it's not as though someone walked in on president trump holding a gun over a murder victim or he was caught selling secrets to the chinese or russians. these are incredibly complex,

legal theories that a lot of people are going to debate. and now that we are in an election year, someone should have said, hey folks, let's slow down here. this is going to be damaging the country, because i can tell you tens of millions of americans out there believe this is all about getting trump. i just had a family member last night, a registered independent, can't stand trump, say if he dropped out of the race tomorrow, this would all go away. and i think that's what a heck of a lot of people believe. i don't know how we put pandora back in the box after these indictments. >> congressman, i want to ask you, usually when we are talking about it's about your role in the foreign relations committee, also on the intelligence committee. there have been several drone attacks in moscow over the course of the last week or two. do you believe that there is an -- a shift in the dynamic related to how ukraine operates with russia on russian territory? >> yeah.

it was -- it was notable that the ukrainians are fully taking credit for these attacks in russia. and one of the things that you are going to continue to see from me and others, coming out of the house, i do believe there should be conditionality on our aid going forward. the europeans have to step up and do more. this is right in their backyard. and we have to have a strategy from the administration on how this ends. look, i do think that the ukrainians are willing to do the fighting and dying, and they are asking us for the beans and bullets, that has been a worthwhile investment for the united states to stop putin. but at the end of the day, as this counterattack flounders, and as it struggles, this does seem like we are inching towards a long-term protracted conflict, and the europeans have got to, when it comes to long-term aid, i think do a heck of a lot more. they have done half of what the united states has provided. >> and i do -- quick before i

let you go, the former president, now the leading candidate for the republican nomination, who you endorsed in april, when he was talking about conditionality this past weekend, he said it should be tied to investigations and evidence being turned over by the fbi, doj and irs related to the biden family. do you believe that conditionality should be pursued? >> well, look, i think it's -- it is incredibly significant that, you know, we had a major oil and gas company that was known to be corrupt in barurism that had hunter biden on the payroll with no expertise, either in oil and gas -- >> i'm trying to understand tying the ukraine aid to that -- >> now we have whistleblowers saying they weren't allowed to investigate, the fbi didn't hand information over to the irs, and that we now have his business partner saying biden interfered

from a -- directly from a policy perspective to fire prosecutor looking into corruption. that is corruption at the highest level. going back to the big picture, the context, when people see that being ignored by this department of justice or even interfered with, yet we see them throwing the book at president trump in the middle of an election year, that looks like two-tiered justice to most americans and it's eroding trust in our institutions, which is horrible for this country. >> my question was whether or not you think you should tie ukraine aid and the war against russia to those investigations -- >> yeah, i think the ukrainians -- i think the ukrainians, if a prosecutor looking into corruption was corruptly forced to be fired and aid was withheld, as president biden has bragged about, that he withheld billions of dollars of aid until this prosecutor was fired, i think that absolutely should be turned over. >> all right.

i covered that administration. that was the view of all western countries at that time in a time related to that prosecutor. it is an ongoing investigation. you had devon archer in to testify earlier this week. appreciate your time. >> i would love to see more coverage of that guys. good to be on with you. thanks. the american people, do they deserve a trial before the election next year, and will they get one? >> and president biden has tried to distance himself from the justice department's investigations of the former president, but has called him a, quote, threat to democracy how will he respond to the third indictmentnt? we'll discuss next. so you know alall you need for recovery. and you are? i'm an investor...inin invesco qqq, a fufund that gives me access to... nasdaq 100 innovatations like... wearable training optimization tech. uh, how long are you... i'm done. i'm okay.

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back in my day, it was scary stories and flashlights. we don't get scared. oh, really? mom can see your search history. that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. ♪ everything that president trump did was with the advice of lawyers and counsel. that's an absolute defense to a criminal case. >> the lawyers, that was president trump's lawyer this morning, is everything to blame on the advice of counsel? how far does that defense go. cnn legal analyst elliot williams, senior legal analyst elie honig, van jones and political commentator, former

trump campaign advisor -- >> i blame them for everything. >> never. not all lawyers. >> those two. >> that's fair. >> they are crucial. >> blame the lawyers to an extent. first, i mean what i'm hearing is blame the lawyers and the first amendment has no limits. there are limits to both of those things. how far do they go? >> on the blame the lawyers defense, it works if the jury buys it. there is a legal defense. what we call advice of counsel, meaning my lawyer told me this was okay to do, but it's not automatic. first of all, if you make that defense as a defendant, it's risky. your attorney-client privilege is gone. you give that up. every communication -- >> that's a good point. >> fair game now if they make that defense. >> in court? >> yes. >> to make it on the media -- >> right. if they formally make it in court. that's number one. number two, it's not endless. if your lawyer gives you preposterous advice, if you didn't believe it, if you are a co-conspirator, and we talked

about how many lawyers are charged as co-conspirators, then it's not going to ultimately hold up with a jury. >> david, we haven't talked to you yet. >> welcome. >> you didn't come out for the first three hours. >> glad to be here now. >> glad to have you. scott jennings made an interesting point. he said republicans who have openly called for their party to turn away from the former president hasn't lined up behind this indictment. what's your sense of it on first read? >> yeah, i think that, you know, to a large extent, the republicans in congress reflect their congressional districts and states from which they come. you see folks from purple states, you know, have one expression here, and then you'll see folks from very, you know, r-plus 24 districts standing with trump. they are not going to waiver because their voters at home are with the former president. and that's, you know, something that's very interesting. i will talked about this -- we

talked about this yesterday a little bit. if you look at polling, "the new york times" poll out yesterday, trump is doing incredibly well not just in the primary, but in the general election in a head-to- head-to-head against joe biden. i am not sure this indictment or the next coming indictment by fanny williams or another indictment will make any difference there. i don't think you will see a lot of daylight between elected officials from safe districts and the president. >> depressing. >> but true. >> interesting point. two of my white house colleagues wrote a great story about how this is complicated for the current president, who would be running against trump if he were the general election nominee, because democracy, democracy and autocracy, the erosion of democracy or threats of that have been so central to his 2020 campaign, to his geopolitical strategy over the course of the last two plus years, and yet on

this particular indictment, something he believes deeply when it comes to january 6th about how terrible it was, he can't and won't say anything because he doesn't want to look like he has his thumb only the scale. >> and i am glad. i don't want him to say -- i want -- >> how do you run an election without mentioning this, or run a campaign? >> i think he can talk about what everybody knows and feels, which is that there is a fragility. when i grew up america felt strong, felt solid. we were scared of nuclear attacks from the soviet union, stuff like that. and other countries were kind of weird and kind of movements and people -- they have coups, you know, those poor silly people over there. that feels like it's come here. we have somehow exported jobs and inported instability. so i think that joe biden will speak to it. he won't have to talk about this particular case. he could talk about something that's deeply felt. >> i think, you know, you just

make me think about the american experiment. it's not a guarantee. and, you know, our debt was just downgraded. and they talked about erosion of governance, but then cnn's reporting is in the meeting with the biden white house, the fitch folks said january 6th, the insurrection, and that goes to the core of what you are saying. >> it really does. and we are all friends here. we have been talking about this for a long time. part of what is going on is constitutions are not perfect, okay? they're not. we have a convention in this country that on election night or close eafter, if you lost th vote, you have a concession speech. that's a convention. it's not required. what happens if you don't concede? if you don't concede, it turns out in our constitution there are extra innings in our constitution that nobody ever played. so trump goes and plays in those extra innings. what about this thing? what about the vice president? now, the question is, is that wrong?

that's not wrong. you can play in extra innings, but you can't cheat. you can't lie. you can't defraud. what's gonna happen is the other side's gonna say all trump did was exercise his rights under you are constitution. and people who don't know this stuff will be confused. and so part of the challenge you've got here is constitutions aren't perfect, everybody didn't go to civics class, everybody is not a news nerd like us and people will be easily confused. there is a reality here that, yes, you could legitimately ask more questions after the voting. people don't usually do it. if you ask those questions you can't lie or cheat, and he did. >> does that complicate the legal side of this? mrs. in press sent here? >> there is. there is no precedent in so far as the defendant is a former president of the united states. >> who is also playing the extra innings, to a degree, and at a level no one's ever seen. >> sure. the idea of conspiracy to defraud the united states, cheating, and not even of money, right? when they think of the word

fraud, you think about lying to take money, but that statute has applied throughout history to obstructing government, in effect, through deceit or fraud or, as the supreme court has said, chicanery, used by the supreme court in the 1920s. the idea that there is no template, think were the president a sitting president and this question of can you charge a president with a sitting crime, of course that would be a harder legal question. we are getting wrapped up in the idea of what someone's job used to be when you are talking about trying a private citizen for a crime that he committed in the past. >> stay with us. more to get to on this. the new indictment against former president trump mentions the state of michigan 39 times. the state was a key focus in the special counsel's investigation into the efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. michigan's attorney general, dana nessel, joins us next.

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♪ a key focus of the special counsel's investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election is michigan. that state is mentioned 39 times in this new indictment. trump has said multiple times there was an illegal dump of votes in detroite middle of the night during the election despite top republicanta lawmakers there at the time telling trump that hd lost michigan, not because of fraud, quote, but because the defendant had underperformed with certain voter populations in the state. that is according to this indictment. joining me is michigan attorney general dana nessel. two weeks ago, i should note, she was in the headlines because she charged 16 fake electors who signed serts falsely claiming trump won michigan in the 2020 election. thank you very much for joining me. you read through this. your state is all over this thing, 39 times. what is the significance of michigan, do you believe, and what state officials there told

trump, now a defendant, about what actually happened in your state in the 2020 election? >> well, you know, 2020 was, obviously, such a challenging year for us here in michigan in regard to the election. i mean, these false claims of voter fraud, voter irregularity were coming at us fast and furiously, lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit. as we know, none you have those lawsuits were successful, not a single claim made by any of the trump attorneys, you know, was given any credence at all in any court. but nonetheless, you know, it was utilized as a mechanism to dispute the election, and it has had long-lasting implications. but what my real concern is this. reading the indictment that was handed down yesterday, we're talking about lawyers who

spearheaded this at the national level. let's look at the co-conspirators. right, giuliani, powell, eastman, clark, chesebro, you know. and then you had all the lawyers that were charged with carrying these plans out at the state level, many whom now have begun to be charged for their troll that they played. the problem is this. virtually none of these attorneys, with the one exception of rudy giuliani, has been disbarred. there has been practically no consequences for them whatsoever. they continue to file meritless lawsuits. they continue to have law licenses, which allows them to undermine our democratic processes here in michigan and all around the state, the nation. >> one of the things that struck me is a text from co-conspirator 1, rudy giuliani, to the then-house speaker in michigan, a republican. it's about assisting and

reverring the ser stain. of biden electors. quote, from giuliani, looks like georgia may hold some fact-factual hearings and change certification as co-conspirator 2 explained, they don't just have the right do it, but the obligation. he says, help me get this done in michigan. this is allegedly rudy giuliani to the former house speaker in michigan, a republican. how extensive were these efforts? >> well, there were, obviously, multiple efforts, and it was not really talked about in the indictment, is the fact that when the former speaker, lee chatfield, and the former senate majority leader, you know, mike sherky, refused to go along with the plan. trump personally docks them, sent out their personal cellphone numbers in an effort to intimidate them. and i will say on behalf of the former senate majority leader and speaker, you know, they is

not fall for this and they stood strong and they did not make any efforts to convene into session their chambers to try to disrupt what was already a certified election. that doesn't change the fact that the president tried. >> sorry to step on your toes. one of the things in your indictment is also a text exchange of 16 fake electors in your state, that one of them indicated, quote, we were asked to keep silent as to not draw attention to what other states were doing similar to ours. now we know jack smith and his team in their indictment lay out the seven states. was there a larger coordination of false electors from michigan to other states? >> well, what we know is this. you had -- again, you had national attorneys that were coordinating with states, and each of the states, there were trump attorneys that were dispensed to those states, and you also had members of the state gop that were helping to coordinate these plans as well.

so it was like a spider web, you know? and you had, you know, tentacles that reached into each of these seven targeted states, and that -- that's not necessarily to say that everyone in each state knew what was happening in the other state. >> right. >> but it was all coordinated from trump himself. >> to that point, i wonder, finally, if you have had conversations since you charged those 16 people, you know, about a week plus ago, with other state attorneys general, for example, in arizona or other states? >> yeah. i haven't -- i had a few conversations. i am going to say this. in each instance, the law is different. the authority of the state attorney general is different state by state, and the facts and circumstances differ as to exactly how this was carried out, even with the language on the false slate, you know, certification form. so, you know, things are not the

same necessarily in michigan as in other states. but i think what we learned from this, while certainly jack smith is doing his best to hold people accountable who devised this plan and were who were at the top of it, there are so many others involved in this conspiracy at the state level who have yet to be charged. >> do you plan to bring more charges against people who you believe are in that group in your state? >> i haven't ruled it out. candidly, i was waiting to see what jack smith did in regard to who he was charging. and that's going to create further evaluation by my department as to whether or not we have the charging bad actors. >> michigan attorney general dana nessel, thank you. >> thanks for having me. president trump is expected to head to federal court tomorrow for his arraignment. new details when cnn's special live coverage continues. that's next. e same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services

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a key pillar in the special counsel's indictment against president trump is the multipronged effort to target seven states where biden eventually won, that includes georgia where another indictment may be coming in response to trump's efforts to overflow the election. we spoke with jen jordan who was called to testify before the fulton county grand jury. take a listen. >> this isn't about politics no matter what the former president's legal team or some of the talking heads are trying to say. it isn't about politics, it's about the law and it's about holding people responsible when they break that law. so with respect to that, she is putting together what i assume is going to be a very kind of sweeping rico case and when you do cases like that they're very complicated and you have to make sure that you have all of the evidence, you know, all of the

witnesses that you need to prove your case because what you don't want to do -- i mean, you don't want to take a swing at the former president of the united states and then miss. >> that's a good point. we will bring the panel back now. final words. thinking through that lens but also indictment generally. >> there's a lot of cases around the country, phil, and i think what we saw from the attorney general a moment ago and this here is that you've got any number of states that can bring cases against the former president. now, some of that evidence will overlap with what was in the indictment yesterday, but this is incredibly complex and i'm not certain every one of these state cases is going to be as strong as what we see in the indictment here. i know he willy honing feels strong about this, too. >> i think the michigan criminal prosecution of fake electors is in big trouble. we all agree, i think, jack smith is thorough, we all agree he is aggressive. jack smith has not charged any state electors nor he's referenced them several times in this indictment, but he does not

label them as cc 1, 2, 6, anything, he does not even say they are co-conspirators. in fact, he says in this indictment that some of those fake electors, they were tricked, they were duped. so the michigan attorney general has charged 16, every -- >> she needs to prove knowing intent? >> she absolutely has to prove intent. i think she will have a big problem. >> next time you sit next to me during the interview. >> sounds like chicanery. >> what are you thing right now? you have had a great big picture view of the last 18, 19 hours. what do you think spinning this forward? >> i think if you're donald trump, federal charges, state charges, local charges, you're catching case after case after case and your poll numbers are fine. your opponents who are supposed to be running against you can't lay a glove on you. so i think we're in a different

place than i think most americans assume. if you are on one side of this asteroid collision you think our guy is being persecuted and we're going to prove it all. if you are on the other side it's like this guy is a criminal and trying to destroy democracy. there's going to be a collision here and i think both sides are going to be shocked by the strength of the other side's arguments, the strength of the other side's passion and the strength of the other side's sense of being aggrieved here. i think even right now in these conversations you're like, wait a minute, republicans this morning the "wall street journal" isn't applauding this? the "wall street journal" is biting their nails saying they don't agree with this indictment? we don't know where we are right now is what i'm saying. >> an important point, van, when we read an indictment and everybody is like it's so strong, the evidence is so great it has not been stress tested yet. >> they are allegationes. >> they're allegations and someone is innocent until proven guilty. you haven't heard a defense argument, an opening statement or legal challenges. no he is will all come and it's the defendant's right to bring

them. >> defense counsel doesn't speak before this grand jury. >> and i'd say none of these cases are going to be heard before the election. i mean, i don't see -- i know that you guys think it's going to happen, but judge canon in the first case said may, set a date for may and labeled it as complex litigation so it can slide. when trump becomes the nominee they will go back, he is a nominee, can't do this now, that date is going to slide. everything will be tried after this. the american people in the presidential election will be the ultimate jurors in this case. they will decide whether they want donald trump to be president again or whether they want joe biden to be the president again. that's what we will see in the end. >> david and elliott, thank you all for being with us. we will be right back here tomorrow morning with you. "cnn news central" is next. wake up, achievers. you're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so why do we l leave so much untapped potential on the table?

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♪ the new charges against donald trump. the new evidence and new reporting about how the special counsel plans to prove that trump broke the law when he tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the indictment says there are six co-conspirators who trump allegedly enlisted to help with the plot to overturn the election results. none of them so far have bee