♪ the new charges against donald trump. the new evidence and new reporting about how the special counsel plans to prove that trump broke the law when he tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the indictment says there are six co-conspirators who trump allegedly enlisted to help with the plot to overturn the election results. none of them so far have been

charged with any crime. will they be or there they flip on him? the testimony of former vice president mike pence proving to be a key part of this historic indictment. sara is off today. i'm john berman with kate bolduan. this is "cnn news central." great to have you back, first of all. >> thank you. >> quite a day it is. this morning donald trump has been charged with trying to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. it is unprecedented. it is historic. and it puts the nation in truly uncharted territory. two monumental almost foundational forces directly at odds. on the one hand as peter baker of the "new york times" writes, can a sitting president spread lies about an election and try to employ the authority of the government to overturn the will of the voters without consequence?

on the other hand the "wall street journal" editorial board suggests it, quote, potentially criminalizes many kinds of actions and statements by a president that a prosecutor deems to be false. we will explain how special counsel jack smith intends to navigate these waters. >> and choppy ones they are. in terms of the immediate next steps, donald trump will face a federal judge in washington, d.c. tomorrow. it is there that he will once again be arrested and arraigned and then a trial date and a schedule for pretrial motions comes next. all indications are he will once again plead not guilty. this time to the four new federal criminal counts connected to his efforts to stay in power after he lost the 2020 election. while much of the information in the indictment was generally known, there is some new information as well, including from testimony from former vice president mike pence. he kept previously unknown contemporaneous notes of trump's efforts to enlist pence to

overturn the election. the indictment suggests that trump enlisted at least six co-conspirators to help him. cnn has been able to identify five so far, among them rudy giuliani, john eastman, sidney powell along with jeffrey clark and another pro trump attorney. >> one key question is why are none of these people charged, at least not yet. might they still be? who else might be cooperating with prosecutors? let's start with cnn's katelyn polantz. quite a moment. >> reporter: it is. this is a set of charges built arou around da seat that the yd believes they can try in court that is a criminal conspiracy when you look at the way the indictment is structured there are essentially three parts and they all are conspiracies

propagated by donald trump, led by donald trump and that donald trump was doing, working with these other lawyers who were with him after the election, people like rudy giuliani, sidney powell, john eastman, they were doing one thing and his campaign, his white house advisers and others in the republican party were telling him to stop, that he was doing something fraudulent and that he could not be spreading this disinformation because it just was not true. the three parts of this, they are three conspiracies, one, the conspiracy to defraud it the united states government, that is one of the key charges here, the top charge that sets out how all of this scheme came together with a lot of different legs to it, trying to use state legislators, trying to use fake electors, trying to put pressure on the justice department, trying to measure mike pence and then also harnessing the power of those rioters on january 6th to try to block congress. so that's the conspiracy to defraud. there's also a charge -- two

charges, in fact, related to obstructing the congressional proceeding on january 6th, the certification of electoral votes. there is a conspiracy alleged around that, a pretty sizable charge that carries a significant amount of maximum prison time if convicted. and then finally a conspiracy against rights. accusing donald trump of leading a conspiracy of disenfranchising people from their votes, essentially getting in there and disrupting the ability of people to cast votes in confidence that those would elect the next president of the united states. so pulling that all together, here is a little bit more of what special counsel jack smith said yesterday after these charges were released. >> the attack on our nation's capitol on january 6th, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of american democracy. it's described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies. lies by the defendant, targeted

at obstructing a bedrock function of the u.s. government, the nation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election. >> reporter: so the justice department is saying they are not just emphasizing the lies, they also are talking about how for more than two months following election day the defendant spread lies that there had been outcome determinative fraud in the election and he had actually won. john, a sustained campaign to defraud the government, the voters, the congressional proceedings by the justice department. they're saying this was not just something that happened flippantly after the election, that it was a scheme that took place over the course of several months and that they are saying could amount to several crimes. >> katelyn polantz outside the courthouse where donald trump will appear to get arrested tomorrow.

thank you very much, katelyn. trump and his team are definitely jumping out to react to this third indictment and quickly. with much the same approach as they have twice before, claiming that donald trump himself is being attacked, being attacked for his actions and that his actions are protected under the first amendment. listen. >> the government has had three years to investigate this and now they want to rush this to trial in the middle of a political season. what does that tell you? >> trump's campaign is going as far as to try and say the indictment is reminiscent of persecutiones in nazi germany, which is neither historically correct or even close to appropriate. the anti-defamation league called the comparison factually inaccurate, completely appropriate and flat out offense. alayna treene joins us near trump's bedminster, new jersey, home. what is trump, his team and his -- those around him, what are they saying today and how are they preparing for this?

>> reporter: good morning, kate. donald trump's team was very much prepared for this indictment to drop. it's a bit of a departure from the past two indictments. they were very much expecting it to come last night and it did. they spent all of monday and tuesday preparing for it, they lined up surrogates and influencers and allies to immediately respond once new charges were filed and they had begun formulating a plan for how they would push back against this new indictment. of course, as we've seen, he's reviving the old playbook that he has used when talking about his legal troubles, which is to argue that these are purely political and argue that they amount to election interference. now, we did hear one line, potential line of defense, from one of trump's lawyers last night speaking in an interview with kaitlan collins. let's take a listen. >> our focus is on the fact that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy and there's nothing that's more

protected under the first amendment than political speech. so at the end our defense is going to be focusing on the fact that what we have now is an administration that has criminalized the free speech and advocacy of a prior administration during the time that there is a political election going on. >> reporter: now, kate, i need to make one thing clear. i don't know if john lauro that attorney who was speaking with kaitlan collins or other members of donald trump's legal team will use that as part of their defense in a potential trial, but we know that this is what this he want to put out into the public narrative. we know that donald trump wants this to play out publicly, he wants to argue to his voters that he did not commit any crime. i can tell you from speaking with donald trump supporters, i was at his rally over the weekend in erie, pennsylvania, i spoke with many trump supporters as they were heading into the venue, and they believe him. they believe that he did nothing wrong and they also think that he is a victim of a two-tiered

justice system. you can see in the polls donald trump is still very much the republican front runner and so i think as you continue to see them message on this, he will be in alabama on friday, he will be in south carolina on saturday for two different campaign stops, he's going to continue to use this type of rhetoric, kate. >> alayna treene, thank you so much. so as we mentioned, the indictment lists six unnamed co-conspirators, they have not been charged with any claims yet. cnn has been able to identify five people, they include rudy giuliani, constitutional lawyer john eastman, conservative lawyer sidney powell, former doj official jeffrey clark and attorney ken chesebro, the indictment identifies a last person as a political consultant. zachary cohen joins us now. it is so interesting to see these people listed as co-conspirators to not see them named and to not see them indicted at least not yet, zach.

>> yeah, john, especially because the indictment says clearly that these are six people who trump, quote, enlisted to assist him in his criminal efforts and, look, if you read this list of five names that we have identified and you were following along with the january 6th committee hearings they're probably not all that surprising, they include four attorneys, namely at the top of the first co-conspirator number 1 rudy giuliani who was acting as the former president's personal attorney at the time but also the head of his post election legal team as they were trying to find evidence of voter fraud to back up his claims that he had won an election that he really did not. now, giuliani was notable in the indictment, it lays out how he led the way on pressuring state legislators during this post-election period, that was something we know from our reporting that investigators were asking a lot of witnesses about before the indictment came. the second co-conspirator is john eastman, another attorney who was advising former president trump either directly or indirectly at the time and

eastman is most known for his plan to pressure vice president mike pence and to overturn the election on january 6th. he was one of the first people that curbed that idea into the high levels of the white house. the third is sidney powell, another trump attorney who was one of the biggest pushers of these conspiracy theories related to voting machines and fraud that came from that, things like venezuela hacking voting machines or china using thermometers to change and flip votes. jeffrey clark a former doj official we have identified as one of the co-conspirator, he was the one that wanted to use the justice department to overturn the 2020 election. we know from previous reporting that jeffrey clark was almost named acting attorney general by former president trump in the waning days of his time in office. finally we've side if i had kenneth chesebro, he is also a pro-trump attorney who was working to help overturn the

election but he was known or identified by the january 6th committee as the architect of the fake electors plot and reading this indictment the fake electors scheme is a cornerstone of what jack smith is laying out and what he says are crimes committed by trump and potentially as cysted about i these five individuals and one other untied if i had individual. >> zach cohen, thank you for bringing us up to speed on these five known other people, the sixth remains something of a mystery right now. thank you so much. and to all of our reporters for that. coming up, much more on this. the indictment and the new details about former vice president's mike pence's conversations with donald trump leading up to january 6 and his testimony and all the detail in then diemt from him. what pence is saying now about this historic indictment. and more about the federal judge assigned to preside over trump's case. no stranger to other january 6th defendants and now facing a whole new spotlight with president trump. and for the first time in over a decade the u.s. debt

rating gets a downgrade, what january 6th also has to do with that. we will be back. ♪ it takes two to make it outta sight ♪ ♪ one, two, get loose n now ♪ ♪ it takes two to make a... ♪ stay two nights and gett a $ 50 best western gift carar. book now at bestwestern.com.

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at thefarmersdog.com/realfood former vice president mike pence is a key figure throughout this indictment against donald trump. his actions on that day are well-known, of course, for standing up to the former president, but the notes that he kept leading up to january 6th, the conversations that he had with trump are new and now coming out. pence reacted to the indictment, though, this way, writing -- a statement saying today's indictment serves as an important reminder anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president of the united states. adding, on january 6th former president trump demanded that i choose between him and the constitution and i chose the constitution and i always will. it's hard to overstate the importance of pence's role that day, according to the charging

document, trump was relentless in his efforts to get his vp to illegally reject the 2020 election results. you will remember that on january 6th trump called on pence to, quote, unquote, come through for him. >> and mike pence i hope you're going to stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country. and if you're not, i'm going to be very disappointed in you, i will tell you right now. i'm not hearing good stories. >> the indictment highlights how trump's pressure campaign seriously put the vice president's life at risk. >> hang mike pence. hang mike pence. hang mike pence. hang mike pence. >> that one of the enduring images from that day. pence is also a victim in all of this, targeted that very day as the riot was unfolding at 2:24 p.m. trump attacked pence for

refuse to go interfere with the electoral college certification. at that point he tweeted this, in part, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution. one minute later the secret service was forced to evacuate the vice president, his family and his team from the senate chamber to a secure location. we later learned that pence spent several hours in a loading dock underneath the building as law enforcement worked to push back the mob. at one point he was less than 100 feet from the violent crowd. john? >> joining us now former trump white house lawyer jim scholz and elliot williams. friends, there's no real dispute here about what happened, right? the actions that took place generally speaking everyone agrees took place. so what jack smith has to prove, elliot, is that what took place was a crime. >> right. and specifically for a number of

things here you have to get inside the defendant's head. we've talked at length, john, in the past about criminal intent and whether you have to prove that someone's actions were willful or knowledgeable or whatever. now, there's at least one instance in here of the president saying and acknowledging that he lost the 2020 election, i can't believe -- or i have to hand this over to those guys, the next guys, but there's a lot of statements from people around the president advising him that he lost the election. you're going to have to draw a link between all of the people, including senior government officials, telling him a fact, and him internalizing that fact and believing it. that can be tough. now, there's a lot of evidence here, but it all comes down to these subjective questions of knowledge or intent of what's in someone's head. >> now, jim, what defenders of the president say is this was free speech, that he had a right to say these things, these fraudulent things. look, even the special counsel in the indictment says the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim falsely that there

had been outcome determinate fraud during the election and that he had won, however, what some lawyers will tell you is that while you have a right to say that, you don't have a right to coerce people to act corruptly. what evidence do you see in this indictment that he tried to force people to act corruptly? >> so i think it was really smart for the government to, you know, put the first amendment issues on the table and then kind of dismiss them and take them off. they say, look, you do have that right to say those things, you have a right to lie, but you don't have a right to commit crimes and create a conspiracy to put fake electors in, to switch out the attorney general of the united states because department of justice isn't saying that you want it to say. they were very careful about the acts, if you will, and show -- and making the allegations relative to the acts that led to the criminal conspiracy.

>> the criminal acts were what, jim? can you expand on that a little bit? particularly with the fake electors. >> so, for instance, the fake electors scheme, right, and working with folks in state to put the fake electors slate -- you know, and to send fake electors to undo the electoral college process. and then also -- i mean, the idea that you would have the -- jeffrey clark, the allegation is jeffrey clark, you know, putting pressure up the chain at doj, saying, look, i'm going to be the attorney general if you don't act the way i think you should act. and doing that at the behest of the president of the united states is very compelling. and then you have folks that are around him like, you know, counsel to the president, the deputy counsel to the president, the chief of staff is kind of weaved in through this indictment, all saying, look, you can't do these things and

you lost the election and you had political operatives telling him the same thing, you lost the election. so all of that kind of feeds into this idea that -- into the theory that the government has that there was a conspiracy to do certain things that could have overturned the outcome of the election, using doj, using fake electors, just to name a couple. >> elliot, what's the key, then, to convince jurors of what? >> one of the statutes is literally obstructing congress or conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding. you have to pro of that there was an official proceeding which was a certification of the votes that their intent as a scheme or conspiracy was to get in the way of that through implementing this fake electors scheme. >> on its face that appears to be what's happened. we're going to send the slates of fake electors, that's going to muck things up. >> right. another one, conspiracy to defraud the united states, you through an act of trickery or

deceit impede a government function, you can say that and the argument is by lying about losing the election in an attempt to impede a government function that's the crime. >> let's talk about mike pence for a moment. there's not a ton new in this indictment but there are a couple tidbits that are absolutely new and they come from the former vice president of the united states or at least concern the former vice president of the united states. he apparently took contemporaneous notes. >> yes. >> on december 29th as reflected in the vice prident's contemporaneous notes the defendant falsely told the vice president that the justice department was finding major infractions in the election process. >> that word contemporaneous is huge because it's legally relevant. notes taken at the time of someone's impression are given more with a et in court or as evidence than someone's recollections months later when they write something down. that is clearly what he thought at the time what he was observing and perhaps they will come in as evidence.

>> and, jim, it's a lie, right? the justice department was not finding major infractions there and to have this, to have that moment in this indictment and potentially to have the former vice president of the united states as a witness telling jurors that donald trump was lying to me when he's trying to convince me to overturn the election, what impact might that have? >> and, in fact, rich donohue and jeff rosen and others allegedly said, look, if you are going to move forward with these types of allegations, we're all going to resign and there will be mass resignations that's when you saw them back off and jeffrey clark back off according to the allegations in the complaint. so, yes, i mean, that lie that he was telling to the vice president, the alleged lie that he was telling to the vice president, was -- is going to be material to this and the fact it's very compelling the vice president took those notes and he's going to be a key witness in this, which is certainly going to be historic. >> talk about history, right there, you know, the former vice

president of the united states as a witness against the former president of the united states. i have to let you both got. elliot, these unindicted co-conspirators, how much longer will they be unindicted? >> not very long. i would be stunned if at least one wasn't charged with a crime at some point. >> thank you very much. as we said, this is historic and we're getting new reaction in from capitol hill to these charges against the former president. the all-new tempur-pedic breeze makes sleep feel cool. so, no more sweating all night... ...or blasting the air conditioning. because the tetempur-breeze feels up to 10° cooler, all nighght long. for a limited time, save $500 onon all-new tempur-breeze mattresses. (vo) crabfest is back at red lobster. when you c can choose your cra, and one of three new flavors like honey sriracha... ...this is not your grandpa's crabfest... ...unless grandpa's got flavor. dayumm! crabfest is here for a limited ti. welcome to fun dining. ♪ at morgan stanley,

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historic indictment against donald trump. cnn's lauren fox now live in washington, d.c. lauren, look, we know that the trump campaign was giving notes, briefing notes, rapid reaction notes to many republican members of congress. what are they saying? >> reporter: yeah, and this reaction, this organized reaction, was part of a weeks' long effort as trump's team knew that this indictment was looming. republicans on capitol hill at least in the house of representatives largely coming to trump's defense and swiftly. you saw last night comments coming quickly from kevin mccarthy, the house speaker, a least stefanik the gop conference chairwoman as well as jim jordan the chairman of the house judiciary committee. stephanie calling it a dark day. but i would remind people that there is a split between what we are seeing in the house of representatives where some of trump's closest allies are, and what we are seeing in the u.s. senate. we still have not gotten

statements from mitch mcconnell or john thune, the top republicans in that chamber. and that's really not a coincidence. it is something that we have seen play out in previous indictments of former president donald trump, but i would just point out that mitch mcconnell has made it clear in the past how he felt about trump's actions back on january 6th. if you remember, donald trump was impeached for his actions when it went to the senate. mitch mcconnell voted to acquit him, but following that vote here is what mcconnell said on the floor in february 2021. >> president trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office. as an ordinary citizen. as well as the statute of limitations has run, still liable for everything he did while he was in office. didn't get away with anything yet. yet. we have a criminal justice system in this country, we have

civil litigation, and former presidents are not immune for being accountable to either one. >> reporter: and you can bet when republican and democratic lawmakers return from a months' long august recess, mitch mcconnell is going to be pressed on what he said there and what he thinks of this latest indictment. john? >> all right. lauren fox, thank you very much for that. >> let's talk about this and, well, everything before us in this moment. joining us now white house bureau chief for the "washington post" toluse olorunnipa and douglas brinkley. gets get into the reaction and the past is now present with mitch mcconnell in just a second, doug, the historical context around all of this. how are we going to look back on this, at this, in 50 years? >> that the lead up to january 6 donald trump and his

co-conspirators were working to undermine a free and fair american election. they lied multiple times. trump will have his day in court, but this is one of those moments that you realize in the positive that our judicial system is working. on the other hand, how close we came to having a kind of coup d'etat fascist dictatorship perhaps if not for vice president pence trump may have found a way to try to hang into the white house longer. and i do think to me the big news here are these contemporary notes of vice president pence because it pits the two men against each other in a very clear-minded way and also the fact that just seeing rudy giuliani's name as one of the co-conspirators that's being floated and to think how people used to look to up at the time of 9/11, of leading new york city through that horrible, tragic terrorist attack, and

then how low giuliani has sunk to becoming the two-bit, you know, deal swinger of donald trump's fraudulent election lie. just remarkable series of events here. the good news to me is that our country produces men like jack smith and women who go and do the detailed work and create a factual record so historians like myself can use them as grist for the mill of history. >> to what extent is this the whole election campaign now, for republicans in the primary, you know, it's about how much they're going to address this or frankly run from it as an issue, and if trump emerges as the republican nominee, how much is this just a referendum on whether or not he should be able to pardon himself? >> yeah, you have to sort of bifurcate the primary from the general election and the primary trump has been pretty effective at telling his voters that this

is something that's made me a victim, this is the weaponization of the justice department and it's rallied support for him and you haven't seen any other republican candidate able to take on the president over these indictments, over the rule of law issue, instead they are siding with him on this idea of weaponization of the justice department and for that reason his numbers are going up. but when you talk about the general election, you're going to see a number of independents who are not happy about january 6, who remember what happened on january 6 and have turned away from trump because of what he did on january 6. that issue had faded from the headlines for much of the last six months, much of the last year after january 6 committee finished up its report, but now that this indictment is back in the mix it's going to be in the top of the agenda for this upcoming presidential campaign and there's little trump can do to win back independents over how he handled january 6th. >> and, doug, you mentioned mike pence and i wanted to ask you -- we wanted to ask you about this.

he's key, his testimony is key in the indictment, his contemporaneous notes, and you have a man who is testifying against his former boss, now running against his former boss, who could be a key witness in a trial against his former boss. talk about that in the context of history. >> well, they better double and triple the security around mike pence's next campaign performance. he's only polling at, you know, up to 3% on a few, he's not doing very well, but he's standing like liz cheney who just won the profiles in courage award for the john f. kennedy presidential library, pence is standing up as a republican who had the -- had the decency and loved his country enough to uphold our institutions, and pence is somebody who is coming out of this drama in good shape in history. you never know where you're going to find the person who stands up for democracy at the last minute.

we remember during the joe mccarthy era, you had senators like margaret chase smith taking hik carthy on. in this key moment we had vice president pence do the right thing, take contemporary notes, share it with federal investigators and let the chips fall where they may. that's hard to do when you worked in close tandem with the boss, donald trump. his break and that line that will live forever is trump telling pence, you know, the problem with you basically, mike, is you tell the truth. i think that will be used in this case also. it's a big moment in american history right here, it's won of more to come, atlanta is going to pop in a couple of weeks and you're seeing a former president of the united states and the leader of the gop besieged by legal troubles. >> first of all, every time i

hear your computer beep i think the "washington post" is about to break something. if you are tell us here first. that aside, our friend john dickerson over at cbs wrote something i think interesting or provocative. he said at the first republican debate mikpence's competitor should be asked if they believe what he did on january 6th was heroic. having recorded everyone's answer is if they would have done the same thing. >> i love that. >> it's pretty provocative to think about that and it's hard to imagine anyone maybe beside chris christie who will be on that debate stage taking a stand. >> yeah, because they realize that in order to win the primary, in order to get some traction in the republican primary which is really run and led by republican base voters who are loyal to trump, they have to be seen as being on trump's side in this battle between him and the justice department. so there are a number -- actually, a majority of republican primary voters who believe that the election was stolen, who don't have a problem with what trump did on january 6

and who if you look at the polls do not side with mike pence, do not think that mike pence did the right thing. his ability to raise money, his ability to get support in the polls as a former vice president has been limited in part because he is on the opposite side of trump and i think a number of these republican candidates realize that and they're going to stick with trump versus pence. >> all right. douglas brinkley, toluse olorunnipa, thank you very much. so one indictment last night and new signs this morning that yet another against donald trump could be just days away. and what about the law enforcement officers injured while defending the capitol on january 6th? what do they now think about this historic indictment? refi at t sofi.com. you could save thousands and get to your goals faster. sofi. . get your money right.

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a key part of the indictment against donald trump is the so-called fake elector scheme. the indictment claims seven states were targeted where individuals would create and submit certificates claiming they were legitimate electors when they were not. now, one of those states is georgia where any day now a grand jury could hand up a new indictment against the former president and now fulton county investigators have subpoenaed a former state senator. cnn's sara murray who is our georgia specialist among many other things is with us now. what's going on there, sara? >> reporter: well, look, what's going on is fulton county district attorney fani willis is trying to get together the presentation we expect she's going to make before the grand jury if she actually goes ahead with seeking indictments. she has subpoenaed people like jen jordan who is a former democratic state senators from georgia and who bore witness at the end of 2020 to rudy giuliani

coming to the georgia state capital with a bunch of other trump allies and making this conspiracy-riddled presentation before georgia state lawmakers in an attempt to try to subvert the 2020 election results. so she got a subpoena, george chiti an independent journalist in atlanta who stumbled upon the fake electors also got a subpoena. jen jordan was on cnn this morning earlier today and she was asked whether she had any concern about the fate of some of these unindicted co-conspirators we saw in the federal indictment and what might happen to them in georgia. >> trump never actually came to georgia, you know, tre were the phone calls, there were the overt actions with respect to any kind of conspiracy, but the people who were actually here who made misrepresentations, who lied, right, to officials here in georgia with the intent to overturn the election, they were rudy giuliani, they were john

eastman, they were sidney powell. so all of the unindicted co-conspirators that you all have been able to identify thus far, right, were the folks who were actually -- they were like the soldiers that were sent into the battleground states to actually implement the plan. whether or not they get named at the federal level eventually, i have no doubt that with respect to the indictment here on the ground that they're definitely a target. >> reporter: so we will see if jen jordan is correct, again, district attorney fani willis has not announced her charges yet, that could be coming anytime in the next couple of weeks. we did also hear yesterday from the fulton county sheriff who said anyone who is indicted in this probe is going to be treated the same as any other criminal defendant. they're going to be fingerprinted, they will get their mug shots, et cetera, john. >> which is notable because donald trump hasn't had a mugshot taken as soon as we know yet in any of the indictments to date. all right. sara murray for us, thank you very much. kate? still to come for us, fitch

has downgraded the u.s. debt rating in a first for the nation in more than a decade. the reaction from the administration and why some economists are shrugging off this extremely rare and serious move. that's next. ♪ it takes two to make a thing go right ♪ ♪ it takes two to make it outta sight ♪ ♪ one, two, get loose now ♪ ♪ it takes two to m make a... ♪ stay two nights and get a $ 50 best western gift card. book now at bestweststern.com. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪ ) ( ♪ ) -awww. -awww. -awww. -nope. ( ♪ ) constant contact delivers the marketing tools your small business needs to keep up, excel, and grow. constant contact. helping the small stand tall. with new scope squeez mouthwash concentrate, just add water.

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visit puzzled and absolutely absurd. >> are you talking about me? >> stop stealing my jokes. i can barely jokes. that is how some economists are talking this morning about fitch downgrading the u.s. government's debt rating. it was knocked down one notch to aa+ from the highest aaa rating this is after congress fought until the very last minute over the debt ceiling. >> january 6th played a role in this as well. during a meeting with the biden administration, they cited january 6th as a significant concern. we are so lucky to have richard quest joining us now. the timing of this is interesting, richard, because everyone, bank of america saying we're not concerned about a recession anymore, things are so

good, so why is fitch saying it's so bad. >> fitch is sending a shot across the bows. this has nothing to do with what's happening at the moment. for example, fitch believes there will be a recession and they will push the u.s. economy into a mild recession in q4 of this year. fitch is a bit of an outlier on the recession, but what they're really saying is the dysfunction at the level of government and fiscal ability, and the inability to set a budget and the inability to compromise and the inability to run a decent economy over the long period is why they say it needs to be downgraded. remember -- remember the last downgrade in 2012 by s&p the dow wasity in middle -- in 2011, the dow was in the middle of a crisis. >> it was never bumped back up, right? >> no because exactly the same issues that fitch is now talking about has prevented s&p from basically saying the u.s., your fiscal house is in order.

now i look at the economists who are talking this morning. you've got larry summers who says the timing -- today's decision to downgrade is bizarre. >> mohammed, a great man, it's a strange move and it's more likely to be dismissed than have a disruptive impact and they're right if you look at it today, if you take it today, but look out into the future. look out at the debt progression. look out at the inability to get the budget and the partisanship in congress and the political sphere. that's what this is about? so, wait, is this being taken to the principal's office? is that what this is? >> i think it's more than that. the principal's office is when you've done something wrong now. this is almost like going to a higher authority, i'm being told. if you don't start sorting things out you're going to have trouble 20 years down the road, 30, 40, 50. it's easy to dismiss it.

it's easy to say the u.s. economy is not going into recession. what difference does it make? it's over and done with. it is the cleanest dirty shirt in the laundry at the moment, but long term, the progression needs to change. >> dysfunction comes at a cost is the message here. >> yes. people will ignore this, by the way. it will have very limited -- >> not after you've been shouting about it. >> the dow is off 164. the nasdaq is over 195, so there is a dislocation that will reverse itself over the course of the hours. ask yourself what do you want your grandchildren's economy to be looking like? that's what this is all about. >> richard quest, all i can say is great having you here. >> thank you for not dirtying up the studio, because i would have to pick that up if you threw that all over the place. >> don't let the door hit you on the way out. >> in just minutes, washington

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