>> good evening everyone, i'm alison camerota, welcome to cnn. tonight donald trump is expected to appear in person and a washington d.c. couroom tomorrow. hes facing for federal criminal charges, including conspiracy to defraud the united states. all in connection to his efforts to undo his election loss. the secret service says, security will be at the highest levels. in a moment, i will ask a former trump fixer michael cohen about the defense that trump appears to be using, at what he thinks what happens next to those six coconspirators. plus, our 45-page indictment tonight to break down every one of our election lies laid out in it. and former attorney general bill barr tells us that trump knew he lost the election.

>> at first, i wasn't sure. but i have come to believe that he knew well he had lost the election. and now, what i think is important is the government assumed the burden of proving that. the government, in the indictment, takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasn't stolen through fraud. they have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. >> that's a high bar. >> that leads me to believe that we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. >> you believe jack smith has more? >> i believe he has a lot more. >> let's bring in michael cohen, donald trump's former fixer and attorney. he's a principal of crisis. he's the author of "the new york times" best seller, "revenge: how donald trump weaponized the department of justice against his critics." michael, great to have you here tonight. you heard the former attorney

general, he believes that donald trump knew he lost the election. and what do you think about that being a defense, that his attorneys are going to say, he believed that there was election fraud, nobody could ever show evidence of it? >> donald will now reach to any defense he thinks will exonerate him from the charges that are being brought against him. he will lie, in order to accomplish that. i have a whole issue with bill barr, to be honest with you. >> what is it? >> bill barr is a man who was donald trump's fixer after me. he became the attorney general of the united states. as far as weaponizing the department of justice, he was the z-- he was the head of the department of justice. it would be no different than sammie "the bull" gravano for john gotti. and before he has the ability, if it comes on this station or any station, and talk about what donald trump did, what he needs to do is to come clean himself,

talk about, for example, the weaponization of the justice department, that donald trump told him to do, including, like what my book is about. how they, meaning bill barr, donald trump, et cetera, weaponized the justice department to go against a critic because i refuse to waive my first amendment constitutional right. >> it's interesting you say that. he did talk about donald trump weaponizing the doj tonight with kaitlan collins. and what bill barr said was, there's no question he believes these understand tugs instituti used to go after his enemies. >> that's the whole premise of my book. however, who did he use to ef effect the goal? bill barr. before bill barr welcomes himself back into polite society, he needs to own what he did. he needs to be accountable for his actions, the same way i did, when i testified in front of the house overnight committee. >> i can understand why you have strong feelings about him.

he said something else interesting to kaitlan collins tonight, about the amount of carnage, his word, that he thinks that donald trump leaves in his wake. let me play this for you. >> he belleaves in his wake, rud lives like this, the people that went up to capitol hill, many that served him in government that got sucked into things. and he leaves all of this carnage in his wake. >> you think he cares about that? >> no. he doesn't care about that. loyalty is a one-way street for him. >> i feel like you have something to say about that phenomenon. >> i agree with everything that he said. except for the fact that he was part of the group that was leaving the carnage in the street. he was part of the people who were weaponizing the department of justice. he is not an innocent baby in this case. he is, in fact, a guilty party. and again, he needs to come clean. >> as we -- we believe, the indictment says there's six

unindicted coconspirators. we have a graphic of who we know believe they are, and th, o we there's a sixth that we have not confird o that is. you know some of those folks, particularly rudy giuliani. what do you think is in store for these six unindicted coconspirators? >> a lot of trouble. what will ultimately happen is government will come to these unindicted coconspirators and give them an opportunity to tell the truth, to tell their side of the story. every one of them to knows based on the allegations, the causes of action that were raised in the indictment. each and every one of them knows that this is me, that they're talking about. and right now, they're in the honeymoon stage, where there's an investigation, they're looking into me. so far, there's nothing happening. >> maybe they think they won't be indicted. maybe they think they have

gotten away with something. >> that's a foolish way to think. the government, especially jack smith, is not allowing anybody to escape. so, each and every one of them knows that this is me that they're talking about, and i think it's necessary for me to have my attorneys reach out to jack smith and his team to ensure that at least i have an opportunity to provide information. if they haven't already. like, i'm a firm believer that rudy giuliani has already spoken. >> what makes you think that? >> i understand rudy. rudy has no interest in intending his remaining days on this planet behind bars for donald trump. in fact, you know, i think the more important thing is not who the six coconspirators are, but rather who is missing from the indictment. like, for example, you don't see any mention of mark meadows. you see nothing of jared ku

kushner. jared kushner was the secretary of everything. how is it possible he is not listed here? he was there. he was on donald's lap, from the entire time the day that donald entered the white house, to the day he left. >> how do you explain it? >> i believe he is a cooperating witness. >> jared kushner. that's interesting. people have pointed out that mark meadows is conspicuously absence from the indictment. but vch jury ared kushner is hi son-in-law. you think jared kushner would cooperate? >> you don't think donald wouldn't throw jared under the bus? it's an emphatic yes. >> you think the same is true about mark meadows? >> absolutely. what's one thing that bill barr said? donald trump doesn't care. he's a one-way street. that means in jared goes down, mark meadows, or rudy giuliani, or eastman, or any of them, he doesn't care. that's just who he is.

>> re >> speaking of eastman, eastman's attorney says john eastman will not turn on donald trump. here's what he said earlier tonight. >> dr. eastman is happy to tell his side of the story. to tell the issues he believes are important to the constitution and the country. under the right circumstances he would share those views and share his recollection of everything happened in 2020. by cooperation, you mean flipping on donald trump or providing indrim nating information, then absolutely not. >> interesting. he will share his recollections but not provide incriminating information. >> the lawyer is talking gibb gibberish. you don't need john eastman to come out and tell the story. jack smith has the story. he has the text messages and

e-mails and the testimony from other witnesses that places john eastman in this scenario. either he's going to turn around and deny it, which would be a violation for lying to law enforcement, or he's going to turn around and corroborate what the other testimony the witnesses have made. whatever this guy says, it's irre irrelevant. they're all in the honeymoon stage, where they are not feeling the full force of what jack smith is going to bring on to them. look, i've been there. and i'm talking about the southern district of new york. 24 hours to plead guilty, or they're filing an 80-page indictment that's going to include my wife. that's on my case. imagine what jock ack smith and doj is going to do. knowing they have the information, the testimony, and the documentary evidence and so on, to bring all of the people to justice. >> donald trump, one of his

defenses was, i was just listening to the advice of my counsel. they were telling me to pursue the fraudulent election claims. what do you think of that defense? >> that's exactly why rudy, eastman, clark, sidney powell, all of them need to come clean and all of them need to provide testimony because donald is telling them what he's going to do. he's going to use them as a scap scapegoat, like he did with me. he's going to use them in order to exonerate himself. and they're going to be, like me, the ones holding the bag for donald. >> re >> michael cohen, great to get your perspective. thanks for coming in. kaitlan collins just interviewed former attorney general bill barr this evening. as you heard, he had a lot to say about trump's legal trouble. >> you know, to me, it's amazing that you read through the indictment and his behavior in that indictment, and it's

nauseating. it's despicable behavior. whether it's criminal or not, someone who participated in that bullying about a process that's fundamental to our system and our government shouldn't be anywhere near the oval office. and for him to be attacking a prosecutor, who is investigating that, with all of the epithets and so forth, he has no basis for, as far as i can tell, you know, is ridiculous. he's an aggressive prosecutor. he's the kind of prosecutor, in my view, if he thinks someone has committed a crime, you know, he hones in on it and really goes to make that case. there's no question he's aggressive. but i do not think that he's a partisan actor. >> here to discuss all of this, we have jessica washington, cnn political analyst, john avlon, joe pinion and harry litman.

great to have you here tonight. bill barr, it was fascinating to hear everything he said to kaitlan collins. she did an incredible interview tonight. bill barr is a big believer in presidential power. okay? he thinks that donald trump should be nowhere near the oval office again tonight. your thoughts as you listened to what he said. >> yeah. the fact that bill barr was one of his biggest defenders and now he's saying, i don't think, like you said, anywhere near the presidency. i think we should listen to that. there's been other reports. i believe nbc spoke to, i think, dozens of folks within trump's cabinet who says, we do not think -- it was anonymous. we don't think this man should be president. i think that matters. the american public should pay attention to that. >> thoughts? >> you think? this is part of a pattern. his attorney, such a strong

advocate, pro-donald trump saying this man should be nowhere near the oval office because he will weaponize this against his enemies. add that to all of the former cabinet members who are warning his supporters and the american people of the danger of a second donald trump term. and his hard-core supporters believe they know this man better than the people who worked with him day-to-day, were warning. the people that know you best are warning about you the best, listen to them. >> joe, what jumped out at you in this indictment? this 45-page indictment? >> there's behavior that i think was already outlined in the january 6th investigation, on capitol hill. so, for me, i don't think there was anything that was shocking or new. there's some things in there that are shocking. if you look in the broader context of the conversation, many people have pointed out, there's no explicit quid pro quo. if you look at the charges brought relative to the actions

taken by the president, it's difficult, a high burden to prove that the president was knowingly making those statements. there's many people who are better equipped than i am, attorneys that have worked at the department of justice. i think we can't be picking and choosing. it's a difficult row to hoe. >> before i have you respond to that, i want to play for you the defenses that donald trump's attorney on this network and others appears to be trying out. okay? here's a mashup of those. >> you have one of the leading constitutional scholars in the united states, john eastman, say to donald trump, this is a protocol you can follow, it's legal. that eliminates criminal intent. >> our focus is that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. and there's nothing that's more protected under the first amendment than political speech.

>> they want to go to trial so that, instead of debating the issues against joe biden, that president trump is sitting in a courtroom. how is that justice? >> okay. what i got from that, harry, he listened to his lawyers. this is a free speech issue. he can say whatever he wants. and this is to distract what the biden family problems. >> speed round, huh? the last one won't come up in the courtroom. the last one is gibberish. he's in charge with making agreements to do things unlawful. he uses words to do that. that doesn't make it a free speech issue. he's trying to up end the political process. and lawyers -- there's six reasons it won't fly. the first one, they are coconspirators. you cannot rely on advice from someone who is conspiring with you to break the law. >> wait a minute. they are his attorneys. before they were his

coconspirators, they were attorneys. why can't he rely on advice from his attorneys? >> because, if the advice is given in furtherance, of a crime, they need to come forward and say, i told him it was okay to have false electors. i told him it's okay to obstruct. not, i told him you can do your free speech. it's the actual charge they have to be able to go for. >> quickly, joe. >> we're playing fast and loose. i listened to a disbarred attorney saying one of two men who have been attorney general more than one is a hitman for the president. but also, at the same time, saying we should agree with it. >> he's referring to michael cohen. michael cohen's point is that he feels that bill barr weaponized the justice department against him. he has that beef with him. >> he has his own animouse. >> let's do that, joe.

you said earlier, you know, there's all this conflicting evidence and we can't possibly know. one of the things the indictment -- you read the indictment, it lays out clearly a pattern of behavior that would suggest that donald trump was repeatedly confronted with the facts that he had lost the election by his closest aides. he was told again and again, the conspiracies he was spouting was not true and would go on ahead and spout them. that's a fact pattern they're going to rely upon. you need to take that into account when you're coming up with the, it's impossible for us to know because they laid out a clear fact pattern. >> i never said it was impossible for us to know. there's certainly many attorneys who have gone to prestigious institutions who have been apointed by republicans and democrats, who said unequivocally, this is a difficult case to prove. i don't know how somehow you want to put words in my mouth and say -- >> can i make one quick point? >> quickly. >> doesn't matter if he thinks this. whether or not he believes it fairly, you cannot do false

electors. you can't obstruct a proceeding. >> jessica, one thing that was interesting to hear, mike pence, former vice president mike pence spoke out. he's been remarkably consistent since january 6th. he's always said that the constitution did not allow him to do what was asked of him. even after all of the pressure that was put on him. here he is today. >> at the end of the day, history will hold donald trump accountable for his reckless words and actions on that day. the american people deserve to know that president trump and his advisers didn't just ask me to pause. they asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election. >> that's even stronger than some of the things he said in the past. he was asked to overturn the election. >> i agree. i think that. it's hard to argue that this behavior wasn't at least potentially illegal.

the thing is -- it's hard not to come out as political in these things. we're looking at, repeatedly, trump was told, this did not happen over and over again in that indictment. and mike pence is saying, i was told to do something that was uncons unconstitutional. that donald trump had the knowledge to know it was unconstitutional. and we can say that a few people that were listed as coconspirators in this indictment, said it wasn't unconstitutional. but he was told repeatedly over and over again -- we have every reason to believe he should have understood that. >> we're -- >> we're not living on a should have kind of -- right. we're out of time. i want to say i understand why you're struggling with it, jessica. it hasn't been adjudicated. we saw it with our own eyes. we are all trying to do the verbal gymnastic. >> the former vice president is telling us that he told him to overturn the election.

>> he'll tell the jury that, too. >> most republicans have come out and said, not only was trying to have a separate state of electors disaster, we would have had chaos and bedlam. i think the preponderance of republicans are saying that. >> i look forward to the measurement. i don't know how you figure a preponderance there. >> which in congress are saying that? >> there's plenty that said, if we had a separate state of electors going in there. if you said in the supreme court, what was the legal remedy for this, they could not come to conclusion. i think there's plenty of republicans who agree with same thing. >> friends, thank you very much. a lot of republicans think that donald trump is getting a raw deal. and a lot of those are fox viewers. geraldo rivera left fox. he knows how the network and donald trump operate. he's going to share his thoughts on all of it next. every night.

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donald trump's attorney general just sat down with our catlin collins to talk about this indictment. bill barr says donald trump does not belong anywhere near the oval office again. joining me now is award winning journalist, lawyer, and former fox hoest, geraldo rivera. you're a lawyer. i'm sure you read this 45-page indictment. what jumps out at you? >> i believe everything that jack smith alleges is true. i believe that as he alleges, president trump incited a riot, unleashed it with the intent of derailing the electoral process. he stabbed the constitution in the back. i think it's obvious. i think that he, if not hatched the bizarre alternate elector scheme, he certainly embraced

it. so, i think that he is facing, you know, the abyss. i think it's tragic. i think many people, you know my former audience at fox, feel grieved by it. they feel it's unfair. three-quarters of republicans in this country, believe that this is bogus, the weaponization of this. it's an affront to democracy. i think they've got it backwards. you can't doubt the intensity, the ferocity of their loyalty for donald trump. >> i want to ask you about that, geraldo. it's very interesting that mirror image that you're describing about the weaponization of the doj, as you say, many fox hosts beat that drum all the time, as though jack smith is somehow doing

something at the behest of president biden, when, in fact, he's completely independent and there's no evidence of that. however, tonight, bill barr, the former attorney general, did talk about former president trump weaponizing the doj and he would do it again. and so, here is what bill barr said tonight. >> i think it's ironic that all these people are getting huffy about weaponization. we can't go tit for tat. but trump, as you say, he's clear about it. i think there's no question that he believes these institutions should be used to go after his enemies. >> what about that, geraldo? why don't fox hosts and fox viewers worry about that? >> i think, first of all, bill barr is, i believe, the most honorable man to come out of the trump administrations. he's been absolutely right.

he came in the administration to save the president from himself and from people who wanted him impeached the day before he took office. i really believe that bill barr saved the 45th president. what he is saying about the weaponization and so forth, i would not help but note, when you're interviewing michael cohen, that michael cohen was saying all of these things about bill barr, the attorney general, and saying he was in on the various schemes and so forth. michael cohen can't hold a candle to bill barr in terms of who is honorable and who is a law-abiding -- >> my point, geraldo. michael cohen feels he was victimized by bill barr. that's his personal feeling. bill barr is saying that donald trump has talked about and will, to quote him, go after his political enemies. that's what i'm talking about. that's weaponizing the doj.

>> i think that, first of all, do not believe that the doj is weaponized. i do not buy the big deep state conspiracy notions at all. i think the doj is relatively straightforward. however, there were, you know, options and going after trump for these allegations, i argue that impeachment was enough. he was acquitted by the senate to now go for indictments for the first time in 247 years. i think that is, you know, perhaps excessive. >> let me ask you about that. they're two separate things. a senate trial is the political arena. and a criminal indictment is the criminal -- you know, arena. our judicial arena. how can -- why are you saying it's redundant?

for instance, the senate trial and impeachment doesn't carry jail term. there's no teeth to that. it's about whether you're going to fire the president. this is totally different. >> i appreciate that. impeachment is what i thought the constitution made it very clear that impeachment was the remedy of malfeasance in office. indictment is what's happening right now. this is the first time a president has been indicted. i mean, there's a reason why for 247 years it's never happened even though presidents have been all over the map. why didn't they indict richard nixon? for instance. maybe that's why my idea that donald trump should be pardoned has legs. maybe we need to take a deep breath and say, do we really want to see the president -- the

former president of the united states, the man half the country believes is the right man for the job, do we really want him to be re-elected in jail? what happens to the country going forward? what happens now? all of these indictments go forward and i said at the top of the presentation. i think that everything that the special prosecutor has alleged is true. are we going to watch trump be on trial, then in a primary? on trial, in a debate, on trial, in a primary on trial? >> yeah. we're talking about two different tiers of justice? if not, aren't we talking -- if you believe everything in the indictment is true, then you are saying that somebody is above the law. >> well, you know, maybe i am. i think they got it backwards.

the six unindicted coconspirators, i would argue -- and i believe, that these six unindicted coconspirators are the architects of these schemes. i believe that these -- you know, i love rudy giuliani after 9/11, everyone did. america's mayor. he led these crackpots in the word of vice president pence -- vice president pence, paraphernali believe is an american hero, has demonstrated throughout this process, this sordid process, that he does put the constitution ahead of the interest of his political party. i know that he is reviled because of that. but i think that he has done a great service to the country. >> he was reviled by the extreme trump supporters and maybe fox viewers. one last thing, geraldo.

there's reporting that two fox executives on the night that trump was indicted, met with him, at his bedminster golf club to try to convince him to be part of the upcoming presidential debate they will be holding in milwaukee. it's just interesting to see -- well, let me ask you this. do you think they are still very dedicated and devoted to donald trump? >> well, that's a separate question. i think first of all, when jay wallace is in charge of news gathering and the chief executive of the news division, when they meet donald trump, it is because, what is a debate when you don't have the person who is attracting 75% of the vote? what is the debate? what is this debate? a bunch of little guys and nikki haley running around going from 1% to 2% to 3%? come on. it's no debate without donald

trump. you know, when he missed iowa, i covered the 2016, when he missed iowa. everyone was, you know, the whole angle of all the reports were, where is donald trump? if only donald trump was there, it would have been different. now, he is bigger than ever, and larger than life, the former president, when he's having a debate to run for re-election under these bizarre circumstances. and i quickly want to say, for trump, this is win or die. trump wins the election. he can pardon himself. he can put all this behind him. trump loses the election, we go through all of the bizarre scenarios, where, you know, he's in jail. he's in orange jumpsuit or handcuffs and, my fellow americans, the state of our nation -- come on. is this really -- what do we do if he wins? he will pardon himself, i

believe. >> great point. miles an geraldo. great to get your perspective. how many lies about the election did donald trump actually tell? according to prosecutors, a lot. daniel dale is here with our fact check, next.

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special counsel jack smith says the january 6th attack was caused by lies told by donald trump. and the indictment includes a litany of those election lies. here to take us through them, our fact-checker extraordinaire.

you have counted the lies. what is the tally? >> i counted 41 in the indictment. if you count it differently, there's some subjectivity. you can go as low as 18 or as high as 25, but i made a list of 21. >> the overarching lie that he was the stolen election. that fraud changed the outcome. numerous trump officials, trump himself appointed, had them him this narrative was baseless, groundless, false. lie number two, the lie that fake protrump lefters in states bon by biden were real electors. lies three and four were the remarkable lies, on trump's pressure on the justice department. that trump tried to get doj to get a government stamp of approval to his lies by sending an official letter saying doj

had major. >> carolyn: kmpbs. it had not. trump alerted top officials ta to say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me. lie five is that vice president pence had the power to reject votes. pence and white house lawyers had repeatedly told trump that pence did not, this would be illegal, unconstitutional. but trump kept declaring that pence had that power. number six, another lie about pence. trump allegedly had his campaign issue a january 5th statement saying pence totally agreed that the v.p. had the power to act, even though pence told trump just hours prior, he still actually totally disagreed. and number seven, trump allegedly told pence at a january 4th meeting they had won every state in question by hundreds of thousands of votes. again, obviously false. lies eight and nine are conspiracy theory about anyone onvoting machines. that there was switch from frump to biden. he repeated this claim, even though it was wrong. number nine, trump retweeted

sidney powell's lie about election fraud involving dominion. he said that powell sounded, quote, crazy. lies 10 through 13 are about georgia, one of the swing states he lost. number ten, was that georgia had tens of thousands of ballots from dead people. the republican secretary of state had told trump directly on the infamous phone call they found two dead voter cases. number 11 is trump's lie that georgia had tens of thousands of ballots from people out of state. ra raf raf number 12, two election workers were caught on video stuffing the ballot box. top officials told him this was false, and the workers were doing their jobs. trump would not stop. he continues to repeat that lie this year, 2023, still going. number 13, trump's tweeted lie that he was unwilling or unable

to address his various fraud claims on that call. he debunked the claims and in detail on that call. lie number 14, the false claim about a nefarious dump vote in michigan. he repeated this the day after barr directly explained to him what had happened in detroit was normal standard vote counting. lies 15 and 16 were the pennsylvania and wisconsin, two more swing states had more votes than actual voters. doj officials told trump this was untrue. but he still used the pennsylvania part in his preriot january 6th speech. 17 is the trump lie in that speech, that pennsylvania wanted to recertify its election results, showing the biden victory. some republicans in the state did. but the democratic governor and elections chief, the people that had the certification power, did not. and lies 18 through 21, finally, are assorted false claims about various states. 18 that nevada had tens of thousands of double votes.

19, that dead people and nonresidents voted in arizona. wrong again. 20, 30,000 noncitizens voted in arizona. his campaign manager told him this was wrong. and 21, that wisconsin had major fraud and tens of thousands of unlawful votes, all baseless. >> the crowd goes wild. >> the crowd has gone wild. i hope the guinness book of world records was watching that. i don't believe you took a breath. >> i tried my best. >> your breathwork is impressive. is that everything? >> in all seriousness, that is not all of the election lying that trump did. in my own fact-checking, i counted dozens of additional lies that the indictment did not mention. of course, the indictments don't mention everything. maybe some of the others will come up at a potential trial. >> daniel, you're remarkable. you are remarkable. that was -- i can't believe you

fit that into one live shot and one breath, as far as i can tell. thanks so much for doing that for us. next, what former president obama told president biden about president trump.

former president obama had lunch with president biden in june and delivered an urgent message. according to "the washington post," obama told president biden that democrats were underestimating donald trump's political strengths in the 2024

election. mr. obama promised he would do everything in his power to get president biden re-elected. doesn't joe biden know -- here's what apparently president obama told president biden. d that donald trump's political strengths are included trump-friendly conservative a media ecosystem in a polarized country. does joe biden not know that? or does he not take them as seriously as he should? >> i'm not inside the white house. i don't know what joe biden is thinking. i do think that sometimes there's this idea that it would be better to run against trump. now this point a thrice indicted presidential candidate. but like obama said, donald trump is a threat. it's scary to think he can be indicted three times and still be a threat. there's no doubt that we have a massive political divide and that donald trump has a following that, if anything, seems emboldened by the indictments. so, it doesn't seem to be hitting a wall that maybe a typical candidate, like joe biden, who has been in politics,

light expect. >> such a great point. i think that -- i think that obama was trying to say, not only is donald trump a threat, he's a big threat. and maybe democrats don't know that. >> yeah. i mean, they should figure that out by now. it's the same logic in 2016. a new poll coming out a few days ago, showing a dead heat. if you look at his republican support. 37% of republicans say they will support him no matter what. the remainder are persuadable. that's a bad number for donald trump. but obama is saying to biden and democrats, don't cheer lead for trump to be the nominee. don't assume this is an easy win. we're a polarized country. anything can happen. compete, take it seriously. that's smart. >> joe? >> there's a law of diminishing returns. there's a flipside, the court of public opinion.

when you have so much of a focus on president trump, the first indictment felt like o.j. simpson, driving down the road in the white bronco. by now, it's barely a blip for peep as they try to go through their everyday lives, particularly the kovrcoverage o. as we realize that biden no, ma'amics, as many reports are saying, in some ways falling on deaf ears. >> the exact opposite is true. the economy is doing well. what is striking is he is not getting credit for it. >> just because you say it, doesn't make it true. >> look at the numbers. >> today, we had the actual ratings were america -- >> by the way, were leading to instability of the country. >> put aside that we have 500,000 americans that are 60 days behind on car payments. >> record low unemployment. don't just trot that out. you can say that biden is not getting credit for the economy.

>> i think he's getting credit for an economy, that he should not be getting credit for. so, i don't want to get into this whole thing. this is actually the problem right, that we have a country that is seeing the world through two different prisms. >> i'm saying let's have a debate about facts. >> what did i say about facts inaccurate? >> that the economy is going down. >> we have people late on their car payment. >> you are right. this is the point. you can have perspectives on the facts, that doesn't mean the facts are null and void. >> last thoughts? >> i'm the lawyer and former prosecutor. there's two boxes out there. all i can say is, we have to focus on this and it's paramount for the country.

i don't know if this is a 20% box and 80% box. it's a disaster box and the end of democracy. i'm all about this box. >> you mean in terms of this adjudication coming up? okay. thank you. >> even the campaign. everything goes by the boards if trump wins. it's a disaster. i'm focus on the rule of law. it's all a lawyer can do. that's what jack smith is doing. >> got it. up next, tomorrow's news tonight. how law enforcement is gearing up for donald trump's appearance in federal court tomorrow. n't. new cascade platinum plus... with double the dawn grease fighting power and double the scrubbing power. for a no rewash clean... and a cabinet ready shine. upgrade to new cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. (female announcer) attention! medicare has expanded dexcom coverage

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in just a of hours donald trump is expected to appear in person in a washington, d.c. courtroom to be indicted on four federal charges, including conspiracy to defraud the united states. the secret service says security will be at the highest levels tomorrow. brian todd has more. brian? >> this city well-versed in the charged atmosphere that donald trump can create, is in a security posture ahead of his arraignment. multiple agencies are combining forces to secure trump's appearance, including the secret service, the d.c. metropolitan police, the capitol police and the federal protective service. sources tell cnn law enforcement has been looking closely at potential online platforms where threats could come from. so far, sources tell cnn, there's no active threat at the courthouse where trump is being arraigned. because of the january 6th experience, a few blocks from that courthouse, law enforcement

agencies will be watching for pro-trump and anti-trump protesters. and if they show up, they will work to keep the two groups separated. a former secret service special agent told us it's likely when trump does arrive, he will be taken into an entrance that is not visible or accessible to the public. >> thank you for that. thank you for watching cnn tonight. our coverage continues now. keeping kids together, here. [boy] chicken nugget man. where they can share who they truly are. lysol. here for healthy schools. attention... are you suffering from hearing loss? the fda has finally approved hearing aids to be sold over the counter. and now, rca, introduces their revolutionary otc

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