not accurate. and, at the end of the day, when he talks about donald trump and getting past it here is the reality. the reason why we are not passed it is because every day, donald trump is out there banging the drum, about how the election was stolen from him. it is not because of these charges, it's because of what trump did on january six and what he is doing today. what he did there on the tarmac at a dca as he left the city after being indicted, saying this is political persecution. the reality is we are all here today because donald trump sent his supporters, who he knew were armed, and had weapons and said go march on the capitol, i'm coming with you. >> but i think it is important to note that actually what he said on the ellipse on january 6th is actually is not what is in the indictment. i worry that by calling at the january six indictment that it allows this message that you heard vivek ramaswamy make, and many of trump's defenders will

make, that is about the first amendment. he's allowed to give a political speech, and allowed to say wrong things in the speech. if you are republican running against trump and saying this is bad, the argument has to be that it is first amendment protected for you to say gosh i probably lost georgia unfairly by 12,000 votes. you cannot call the secretary of state and say find me 12,000 votes. those are different types of speech, and it'll be interesting to see if any of the republicans in the primary actually make that argument. >> wolf, putting all the legal stuff aside, you and i have covered a lot of these campaigns. i cannot believe that vivek ramaswamy is not trying to seize upon donald trump being arraigned in federal court to take advantage for his campaign. he sounded as though he is auditioning for vice president or a member of the trump cabinet. what kind of bizarre, twilight zone world are we in right now? other campaigns, in the past, campaign rivals will be seizing on something like this. it is a third indictment, he is more indictments than he does

impeachments. one would think that the other candidates in this race would be seizing on that and they are not, it is -- wolf. >> everybody, standby, our special coverage will continue right now. >> this is our primetime coverage of the arrest and arraignment of donald trump, i'm laura coates. >> i'm wolf blitzer. this has been a day unlike anything we have ever seen in our history. the 45th president of the united states arrested and arraigned in a courtroom, just a stone's throw away from the u.s. capital where the plot to overturn the election exploded in the deadly violence. >> it is an extraordinary moment, it really, is in a day of extraordinary moments. donald j trump arriving in washington d.c. to be inct on for federal charges related to special counsel jack smith's

investigation into attempts to overturn the election of joe's biden. the former president standing up in court today and pleading not guilty to all four charges. despite everything laid out in the 45-page indictment, kevin mccarthy, who is at the capitol on january 6th while he is arguing that trump is being prosecuted unfairly. >> i have the honor improved luge to serve in congress. the building itself sits directly across from the supreme court. there is lady justice there. she has a scale and a blindfold on, that is the way justice in america is supposed to play. that it is fair and even. right now i think most people in america will say it doesn't seem quite fair. >> let's go right to our senior legal affairs correspondent paula reid. ball another truly stunning day in our history with the former president making his initial court appearance, what happened in that room and what comes

next? >> extraordinary, wolf. our colleagues who are in the courtroom described how special counsel jack smith and former president trump or seeded just a few feet apart from one another and while they were waiting for the judge to take the bench, we are told that the two men actually exchanged glances towards one another, multiple times. this is the second time that they have been in the same room jack smith also attended trump's florida initial appearance and arrangement. now, once this hearing got underway, the former president, he was asked to say his name, age, and he then listened to the charges that have been filed against him and android his own plea of not guilty. that is significant because in florida arraignment, he actually had his lawyer enter that for him and we didn't hear him speak at all. notably, this case appears to be moving pretty swiftly, this hearing was before the magistrate judge, but this will be before judge chutkan, she

will handle this all the way to what is expected to be a trial, and she is already put than government on notice in the next week. she wants an answer on when they think they can bring the case before a jury and how long they think that jury trial will take. then she wants defense to turn to respond a week after that so that in this month, when everybody is back in court, she wants to be able to set a trial date. wolf, that suggests that she really wants to move this along quickly, and this could possibly go to trial before the 2024 election if the defense attorneys have said in the other case that it would be, quote, unfettered by the former president on trial while he is running for the white house once again. but at this point it appears that joe judge wants to move this along. >> interesting, paula reid, thank you very much. laura? >> what happens next in this case? well, it has a lot to do with what was called the speedy trial act. luckily tom foreman is here to explain it all. so, tom, with trump appearing, as you know, obviously the

clock is starting to tick. a lot is happening immediately, tell us what's going on. >> when he stood up in court, that started the clock in calendar moving. why? constitutionally we are guaranteed a speedy trial, but in 1974 a speedy trial act came along and put a finer case on that and said that the act establishes time limits for completing the various stages of a federal criminal prosecution. trial must commence within 70 days from the date the indictment was filed, or from the date the defendant appears before an officer of the court, in which the charges are pending. that happened today, whichever is later. the reason that this was put into place is because we want trials to move quickly. why? to keep the accused from waiting in jail. trump is not in jail, but many people are. if they want to say that you cannot serve a sentence waiting to be tried, then you're found innocent and you are in prison anyways. it's not right. to maintain witnesses, the memory of witnesses, the availability of witnesses, people who may be involved in

accidents, you want to get to it while it is relatively fresh and to remove the cloud of suspicion. if you are an innocent person you would want your trial to go forward as soon as you could to have it proved that you are innocent. there is a presumption of innocence, but we also know how the public reacts. so you want to remove the cloud of suspicion whether you're convicting and saying you didn't do it. >> of course, the public has the right, it is the united states versus -- it's not just the victim, it is the public having a right to have their own rights vindicated and justice served. it's all pretty straightforward, but the mass, and of course today's proceedings, tom, that would suggest of course that they've got a date of around, october? >> october 11. october 11th, if the math or perfect. but, there were many many exceptions in this act. for example, pre trial motions can push the calendar further down because it can be complicated to. conflicting court cases, we have already got these with donald trump and there are more

potentially coming. that could be a problem. the health of the defendant. he is 77 years old, is the same age that ronald reagan was when he left the white house as the oldest president in history. joe biden is eclipsing him, but nonetheless, when you have an older defendant there is always questions of health that may come up. whether the case is so unusual or so complex, the argument to be made that this is very unusual, it seems kind of simple, but you could argue that it's complex because he's the president. and lastly, conflicts with the best interest of the public and defendant. it's a really interesting one because a judge could say, yeah, the election coming up is a conflict. all the other courts are conflict. that could push it forward or back, you could have a judge saying no, we have to get to trial because there is a vote coming up or we can't get to trial because there is a vote coming up. that goes to the idea of it being unusual and complex. so, technically, yeah.

october is when this would technically, theoretically, maybe happen, but i will buy an ice cream if it happens on october 11th because there are so many other ways that this campaign -- despite the speedy trial act of 1974. >> i want to full sunday, first of all. >> we are not getting it. >> the political cynics will add one more thing to that and i will say, campaign donations. because we know it is actually happening, one reason to maybe delay. tom, thank you so much. wolf? >> thank you, our experts and analysts are here with us and that we want to hear about how one of trump's lawyers actually spun all this earlier today. and then hear what trump's daughter-in-law had to say, first the attorney. >> i think that everybody was made aware that he lost the election, but it doesn't mean that he was the only advice he was given. as anybody understands what happens in the oval office, there are numerous amount of advisers and politicians and lawyers, not just one or two,

that are giving you advice and telling you what they believe is true. they may not agree with mike pence, he might not agree with his lawyers, but it doesn't mean that there were not other people advising him exactly the opposite. the president has a, right as every one of us, due to listen to several opinions and make their decision. >> and now here is larry trump, listen to this. >> let me just cleared out for anybody who has any questions out, there trump oblivion on november 3rd of 2020 that he won that election. he is believed every day since. he still continues to do that, so trying to say otherwise maybe wants to take note of that. >> all right, what did you think? >> with respect to the multiple opinions, that donald trump received, the majority of the credible attorneys, his own white house counsel, his attorney general, and a

plethora of people told him that this was not legal. asking pence to suspend the count in congress and send it back to the legislatures to overturn the vote in the states. he knew that that was not legal. and as to his daughter in law's statement that he believed he won, in this indictment jack smith very clearly lays out all the times that the defendant, don't trump, privately conceded that he won the election. i think there is proof beyond reasonable doubt here, and he's entitled to the presumption of innocence, but jacques mess is going to put on a powerful case here knocking down the idea that there is any credible legal advice or that this man actually thought he won the election. >> tim you worked on the january six select committee, how do you see it? >> reading through this

indictment, wolf, it really is, it almost seems like an executive summary of the executive summary of the select committee's report. anyone who paid attention to the work that the select committee did last, year and we know tens of millions of americans did, this is going to be a familiar story. there is information that the justice department was able to get that the select committee wasn't, but my mind goes back to the select committees litigation with, who we think, is an unnamed coconspirator number two, john eastman, where he was trying to protect communications with the president and the select committee made the argument then that there should be a crime fraud exception to the attorney client privilege and a federal judge, a year ago last spring, said that there is more likely than not that federal crimes were committed here. seeing this move forward in the indictment is validating for the committee's work but it is also something that, again, folks who have been watching this from the beginning, should not be of surprised to see. >> olivia, you worked in the

trump administration. give us your sense. i want you to listen to what colorado congressman jason crow had to say about this. take a listen to this. >> we are being tested to see whether our rule of law, whether our democracy can withstand somebody like donald trump and his supporters and to pass that test we cannot be looking at different outcomes. >> will our country pass that test? >> i am concerned, to be honest. i am worried about what the future holds, i am worried about statements being made by people in the political party that i have supported for most of my lifetime, and look, when your continued to undermine the judicial system, continuing into support such statements like those being made by trump's advisers, there is a reason that trump called pence to honest. he wanted him to fly, he knew, he knew he was lying. and he says to my former boss, you are too honest. this is a conversation that has happened in the past, by the

way, when pence was out telling the truth at times of other policy decisions, that was the dynamic between donald trump -- he wanted everyone to do his bidding. he wanted everyone to lie. here's the thing about donald trump, when you stand up to him, we have seen the consequences. and i think we have got to get past this kind of rhetoric, narratives, and divisiveness because i think it is eroding the fibers of our democracy and we're in trouble if we continue to go down this path. >> paul, what do you think? >> i think olivia makes a powerful point. democracy is on the ballot, we have seen in the last couple of election it was. democracy is going to be on the docket. and this is a political fight as well, which is much more uncomfortable, and with republicans, what they are trying to tell their followers, get this. in order to believe the republicans defense you have to believe that donald trump's vice president and donald trump's attorney general, and donald trump's white house chief of staff, and donald trump's white house counsel's, and his director of national,

all conspired with the house speaker in -- in michigan, and the trump supporting state senate majority leader in michigan, and the trump supporting state of georgia dozens and dozens of trump supporting republicans. trump staffers -- they all conspired to steal the election from him. and now they are conspiring again to frame him. that was what you have to believe. if you believe that, you are entitled to a degree from trump university. >> it's interesting that you mentioned democracy because i don't hear much talk of it on the right, how important it is to have democracy, to preserve, it and move things forward in a manner that jives with what our founders wanted. i don't hear that talk on the right anymore and therefore you can't hear the talk of upholding the rule of law and how important that is today. so i see this, to anyone on the right to his warning about today and thinking that it's a great conspiracy theory, look at the mismatch arguments being sold you from capitol hill. that's the hardest part for me to swallow.

on the one hand i hear the election interference today, alina alba speaking for the former president saying that election interference in 2024, it is your people who are being charged with election interference in 2020. then they go on to say that it took so long to get here yet they know that elected on capitol hill that they know the wheels of justice are slow and it takes time to get to an indictment like today. and they know how scathing it is, yet they go on to say that this is nothing and let's draw parallels to the crimes that hunter biden has been charged with, whereas nowhere in the same role as what we saw today. >> we are hearing a lot of these, and i think this varies is false equivalence in many respects, you have to test legs. perhaps for those you are describing, it has enough teeth that people are deciding not to speak out against it in many ways. when you look at this issue and think to yourself, we just heard from vivek ramaswamy who suggested that you disband the fbi on account of his misgivings about the

weaponization. why is this something that has that staying power? >> well, there is a segment of the population, it's not majority of the population. electoral matter it's been a losing proposition. in 2018, in their nose to the 2020 election, the midterm were losses for trump, 2020 he was on the ballot, there is a referendum on trump. he lost 22. he put out these election denying candidates. alina haboob and trump are not unique. he found people to espouse these ideas who ran for office on this platform of election denial and democracy denial. they lost in arizona, they lost in wisconsin, they lost in michigan, they were wiped out across the country. there is a super majority of americans and cnn's two new poll today, 61% say yes.

there is reality, we are living on planet earth, president biden won the election. now, you have another segment of the population, 69% of republicans who say no. biden is not the legitimate president and there it is a combination of multiple factors that have made themselves up double, including the unique salesmanship. paul and i were talking in the green room, trump is able to channel the resentment, the organic, natural, he speaks to those people. it is a lot of dislocations over many, many decades. he channels that resentment and now he is channeled it into this assault on the foundations of our democracy and it is very dangerous. >> i think wolf needs a show about the conversations that are had in the green room. standby, we're going to bring that to the table in a second.

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on your erc tax refund. stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com you really got the brows. many of trump's allies are coming out to defend him, including, of course, one of his sons. >> it's, that we're no better than some third world countries around the world. or literally try to imprison political pro opponents. or better than us. >> eric trump, i would like you to meet, well, eric trump. this first different, then the first verse, everyone. >> maybe lock her up goes to lock him up. lock him up, i like lock her up more. >> if that was anybody in the trump family and we lied on a federal form, we would be in jail for the rest of our lives. >> eric trump's brother also

ones posed for a picture with hillary clinton behind bars. that picture was actually on his gun, by the way. eric trump's wife, well, once cold fun. >> trump suggested that michigan governor gretchen whitmer needed to lift coronavirus restrictions and the crowd started chanting lock her up. >> he wasn't doing anything to provoke people to threaten this woman at all, he was having fun. at a trump rally. >> and eric trump's father, well, folks -- [crowd chanting] >> lock them all up. >> it's awfully good that someone with the temperament of don't trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> because you'd be in jail. i agree with you.

>> what about omar, when she gets caught harvesting? what is going on? i hope the u.s. attorney is involved. what is going on with omar? i've been reading these reports for two years about how corrupt and crooked she is. [crowd chanting] let's get with it. >> joining us now a cnn political commentator and former trump campaign advisor, david urban and former democratic governor of massachusetts, deval patrick. david, let me start with you. so, hillary clinton it is okay but not if it's donald trump? >> wolf maybe eric trump should go back and listen to the 90s atlanta sports song, isn't it ironic? maybe he'd get a bit out of it. but there's nothing much more to say about it. >> david, i want to get to deval in the moment but you know trump well. he's trying to make himself out to be a martyr today but what

do you think the mindset is behind the scenes? >> wolf jacobs tapper earlier alluded to this. there is a famous sign filled up without where george costanza says jerry that if you believe it it's not actually ally. and i think that's the case here. the prosecutors here the justice department is going to have a tough time proving the mens rhea. i know there's a lot of folks on your panel like norm and other thinking it's going to be easier than that but they're going to have a tough time proving that. i think trump is the former president is probably nervous i agree with governor christie's assessment that he goes to bed at night thinking that i could actually end up in jail here at some point and that's a real probability. >> it is interesting deval here's how the house speaker kevin mccarthy is characterizing this historic moment. listen. >> you are entitled to raise a question. you're entitled to question

whether it was honest or not. that is the uniqueness of the first amendment. it's the uniqueness of america but you know what, you should be prosecuted for your thoughts. the difference here is that when hillary clinton said nothing happened to her. when they said it in georgia's election, nothing happened to them either. >> so clearly he incited a mob to attack the u.s. capital it is more than just a thought. how do you counter this narrative? >> well, if you're asking me first of all i think they have more than enough proof in this so-called speaking indictment that donald trump knew that he had lost the election. but, even if he believed he had won the election, that doesn't justify him setting a mob on the capitol, him trying to send fake electors to disrupt the count and install himself or continue his own power. you know, if donald trump believed in the easter bunny,

it wouldn't justify him rating easter mass and turning over and out. in some ways it is secondary what he believed, what he did was try to steal the election after having lost it to joe biden. and, if our nation of laws mean anything, if we are governed by laws and not personalities, and it's important that somebody who incites a coup, as trump and his coconspirators did, face the consequences of our laws. >> deval, we learned just the other day that former president obama privately warned biden at a private lunch and they had not underestimate trump's political strength. i -- do you think biden is underestimating? >> i don't know, and in a way i don't care, wolf. i say that respectfully i think president biden is doing a wonderful, wonderful job and part of his good service is to

let the justice department do its job without interference. i know merrick garland, i know his respect for the institution, i know his care, i wish that this whole prosecution and particularly the assignment of the special prosecutor had come earlier than it did. but it came, in many respects, when it should have and we are where we are because of the care that doj has taken, and taken independently and i think it's enormously important. >> it's very important, indeed. david, 2024 revoking candidate ron desantis made a promise if he is elected president. listen to this. >> on bureaucracy, we are going to have all of these deep state people, you know, we're going to start slitting throats on day one and be ready to go. you're going to see a huge, huge outcry because washington once to protect its own, but, at the end of the day this is a

city that has failed this country. >> so,. david, what do you make of the comment regarding the federal workforce? >> so, wolf, obviously red meat for the base. i heard vivek ramaswamy on earlier saying he's going to dismantle the fbi. look, functionally it is impossible to do. i know there are probably many americans who question the federal bureaucracy and think it could be slimmed down, i think there are a lot of folks who think that there are bad weather events in washington d.c. that have not essential personnel don't show up to work today and i think that the federal government should be -- and i think that is a legitimate complaint. but to vocalize that, i don't believe it is the call for heads on pikes after election day. >> gentlemen, thank you very, very much. the special counsel jack smith

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well, mike pence is making the best of the reference to him in the latest trump indictment when the then vice president told his boss that he lacked the authority to change the election result and trump told him, quote, you are too honest. the pence campaign is now selling, to honest branded

t-shirts and baseball caps. our panel is back. you've gotta love the idea of the commercialization of things these days, to him, but let me ask you, the fact that mike pence is such a key person in this indictment. we compare that what has happened and the congressional committee of january 6th, and the investigations, he was nowhere to be found there. although he has remained the 10,000 foot elephant in the room. >> at right. we would've loved to have known just how honesty was either go, on the select committee wanted to hear from him. but some of the details in this indictment, now obviously there is more information for us coming from the former vice president are extraordinary. we know it is like committees investigation that the pressure campaign on the vice president was a central part of the scheme. but what we have seen here, the direct pressure that the former president was putting on his vice president to violate the law and to betrayed his oath, it is extraordinary.

the record has become more complete now, and we are seeing sort of the extent to which not only was the former president pushing the scheme, but he was so hands on with it. he was, the details on the phone call, the vice presidents contemporaneous notes, i think it shows that this was something that donald trump was not just consenting to in terms of the scheme, but was very much driving himself. >> what do you make of his tone? it has changed a little bit, olivia. he's talking about being too honest now, but many thought he was too quiet before as it came to trying to address what was, frankly, the obvious criticism that many wanted to level against trump. but he didn't. >> it has been hard for me to be critical of someone that i worked with so closely for over two years. and i have been critical of that because i think we would be better off as a country if mike pence had stood up on

january 7th and said that this is completely wrong. we need to start telling the truth about what happened here, told the truth about the election in that moment. i also think that the republican party would be in a completely different place. all kidding aside about the two honest thing, i think there is something to be said where we need to make line wrong again and republicans need to take a step back and actually assess that. because today, for me, when i was thinking about it throughout the day, it was a somber day, but i was also thinking about today being combination of all of these lies that trump has espoused over and over again and how it finally caught up to him, finally. but all of these lies that led to the violence on january six, lies like other things that he said he is talked about anti immigrant rhetoric, he's talked about the invasion of immigrants and that country, and today is actually the four year anniversary of the mass shooting in el paso, my hometown, where rhetoric like that was repeated by the shooter that went in there.

he repeated the rhetoric and said it was a hispanic invasion of texas. those lies -- it also end up for the federal email say they should learn a lesson from what happened to trump today, because words like that matter when you are running for office, especially in the oval office. and i just hope that we can get away from that type of language and hateful thinking because i think it drives threats, anger across our country, and while we may think it is hyperbole, i will say that somebody out there it's sitting there thinking about what next agency, what the next fbi agent they are going to target because they are angry and it is all based on lies. all of these people know. it >> that is following the execution of the lawful search warrant on mar-a-lago, there

was in fact somebody who tried to attack an fbi field office. >> you, know arena, it is interesting when you hear, if you read the indictment, it makes it clear that jack smith, the special counsel, he has evidence and strong evidence that trump was lying, that he knew he had actually lost the election, but he was lying to his supporters. >> well, a few things here. number, one being that i've heard the counter argument that jack smith actually made these broad brush charges, did not include a really tough charge like seditious conspiracy for a. reason why? because he wanted to get this in front of a liberal judge. a democratically appointed judge, and therefore get it passed that judge and get it to illiberal city jury, all in d.c.. this is what is being talked about in republican circles, how jack smith did it this way so that he could rush it and get a jury in d.c. to make donald trump guilty. >> isn't that normally when there would be a trial where

the crime took place? prosecutors have no choice but to keep it where took place. but what you hear from republicans are, eight, move it would next door to west virginia, my home state, a place where he won by 40 points in 2020. that is not how justice works. you don't move a trial to a friendly place. but again, this is what is being talked about in republican circles as this is getting probably the gauge it out there, you are hearing that republican elected officials sowed doubt in the reminds of these republican voters and are questioning the veracity of these charges. expecting see it get worse. >> by the way, norm, do you think that you could just pick out a judge, that is -- you could say i like this judge today? >> laura, it is just like the way that a president can mentally declassify a document, simply by thinking about it. you know, i do want to say that there is going to be a hotly

contested fight, not just what we are hearing in public, in these days from john morrell, who i used to practice criminal defense with. trump's lawyer. from alina, about another one of his lawyers, for malaria trump, they are pirating the arguments. i jotted them down. advice of counsel, good faith belief that he won the election. we heard a lot about first amendment defenses. there will be a version of this case that will be made, that will be argued to the jury. to david urban's point that he made, i don't think that will be a lay down. he has a top notch team, laura was an excellent lawyer. you're going to get a fair hearing from a d.c. jury and judge tanya chutkan i, i think she will move fast, but she will be tough and making the prosecution prove his case. we should expect, in court, a

knockdown, drag out battle over these issues. i think that jack smith has the better of it. page seven, he lists time after time -- it goes on to page eight, and into the tip of the iceberg. time after time that donald trump was told that you lost the election and then he acknowledged, privately, that he lost. so smith will bring the evidence, the other side is going to fight, and we really have to fasten our seatbelts. olivia, if i can take slight exception to just one thing that you said, it has not caught up to donald trump yet. he is innocent until presumed guilty, it will not catch up to him until these issues are litigated and a jury in the district of columbia, maybe as soon as the first part of 2024, pronounces him guilty or not. >> once a defense lawyer, always a defense lawyer, wolf. >> i hear that very closely.

everyone, standby, there is a lot more that we are watching. the former president, don't trump, full of bravado publicly, but that is not what he is expressing privately. up next, kaitlan collins has new reporting on his mindset. plus, another trump ally charged tonight in the conspiracy to seize michigan voting machines. we'll speak with the prosecutor overseeing the case. much more, coming up. our special coverage continues. it's earned in every wash, and re-earned every day. tide. america's #1 detergegent. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop.

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former president trump left washington immediately after his arraignment and had it right back to his golf club in new jersey. cnn's kaitlan collins tells us what the mood is like for trump

in bedminster tonight, caitlin. >> yeah, wolf, we are learning more about the mood that the former president was and when he left this courthouse in washington and lee see after pleading not guilty to charges against him. the second set of federal charges. i'm told he was in a sour and dejected moved by multiple people familiar with the former president's thinking. it came after he had motorcade to the courthouse, he then went in and was processed, he was fingerprinted, he went through a process pretty similar to what most other people would. it took a little bit of time. and then he went into the courtroom and, while they were in the courtroom waiting on the magistrate judge to come in, there it was essentially so quiet you could hear a pin drop and you saw jack smith sitting on one side, former president trump sitting on the other, obviously someone that trump has attacked at length. they're just 15 feet apart or so. and after that hearing and it i'm told that trump was in a --

of mood, that's a quote somebody gave me. essentially what his mindset was, unhappy trope in the first place, but also upon leaving. there was one detail in particular that seemed to irk the former president the most, and that was when he was in there, in that hearing, and the judge referred to him simply as, quote, mr. trump. he is somebody who, at his bedminster clump where he is back tonight, or at mar-a-lago, he still referred to by those around him as president trump. that was a moment that particularly irked him, laura. >> thank you caitlin, it's interesting to think about that. up next, as donald trump is arrested and arraigned, again, three of his allies in michigan are indicted for trying to tamper with voting machines at the 2020 election. i'm gonna speak with the man who charge them. that's what you get from the morgan stanley client experience. you get listening more than talking, and a personalized plan

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well, a third trump ally now facing criminal charges in michigan over an alleged plot to access and seize voting machines after the 2020 election. pro trump lawyers,phanie lambert is facing for state level charges. now that is after matthew deperno, a bacd candidate who lost his b to be state attorney general, and former gop representative dare rendon. they are botraigned on multiple charges stemming from an ongoing investigation focusing on attempts by trump supporters to reach voting machines in michigan. let's talk about the prosecutor -- in the state of michigan the

election code is relatively clear as it relates to who can possess or obtain possession of voting machines, and obviously you are innocent until proven guilty, but i have to say that the michigan state police and the attorney investigators did a thorough job in providing me with a lot of material to sift through, but ultimately we felt very comfortable in presenting this to the grand jury and ultimately they had a decision as to the charging. >> give a sense about the why, where they trying to -- where they are trying to do anything nefarious? >> well, you know, the y aspect i think will come out as we get to the court hearings and trial, but clearly there was an attempt, and alleged attempt, to get into these machines and see if in fact they could be

manipulated? >> i will note in a statement, that the attorney for matthew deperno, his client categorically denies any wrongdoing -- and lack merit. he also maintained his innocence and firmly believes that these charges are not based on any actual truth and motivated primarily by politics the motive. what is your response, this idea that there is political motivation here? >> if that were true >> and i would've made that decision on my own. we consciously, i want to take politics out of this investigation, and this charging decision, and specifically used the grand jury statute here in the state of michigan to assemble a group of unbiased, independent citizens to ultimately make the

charging position after being presented. >> brilliant to hear this perspective and learn about the new developments. thank you for joining us today, it's an extraordinary today in terms of our thoughts on democracy and transparency and accountability in the end. thank you so much. >> thank you for the offer, i appreciated. >> wolf -- >> it's hard for me to believe that there hasn't even been a day like this, we will continue to watch it, the stories is by no means going away. only back tomorrow for the situation room, five pm eastern, tomorrow a two hour situation room. laurel is back for cnn prime time at ten pm eastern, and our coverage continues right here on cnn.

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