former defense lawyer we know that we'll. trump is the ringleader, he gets the highest amount. but, as a federal judge in california said, judge david carter, a very distinguished jurist, this was an attempted coup in search of legal theory. trump allegedly used lawyers and so you have two of those lawyers, two of the one -- >> chesebro, eastman. >> chesebro and eastman, there are the ones accused of cooking up this scheme, allegedly, to come up with a fake electoral slates, to use them, disguise to squeeze mike pence. to get him to do, really, outrageous and unlawful acts of essentially suspending the counter or recognizing trump in congress when he won. >> eastman, of course -- i don't

want to cut you off. eastman would say, this is a matter of scholarly debate. that's what his bar counsel lawyer was saying. he would suggest it was about the legal matters. he's opining about some of this. >> no. it was not a matter of scholarly debate. there's no legal basis whatsoever. it's absurd to suggest that the vice president, who has a ceremonial role in congress, can suspend the count. can, perhaps, recognize the electors of the hasser of the election. can send it back to state legislatures to overturn the vote of the people. i mean, that's crazy. there's no basis legally for that. then, you have lesser figures. there's a lot of them. 19 co-defendants in this complaint, who are accused of lesser amounts of misconduct. smith, more than a haul.

smith got the $50,000 amount. and hall, the $10,000 amount. >> i want to go to the next slide. when people are looking at this, it's the band conditions, what he can and cannot do. first of all, the first time we're seeing donald trump with bond conditions at the outset the. before, it was having to go back to the court to say, now maybe a truth social post has come out or i need you to tweak something. most recently under judge chat k chatkin. he cannot have contact about the facts of this case with the victims and the community. what do you say to that? i think it's attuned to the lessons of donald trump's reaction, to the three prior arrests and arraignments. where he has continued very active. specifically, the conditions of

release, specifically talk about social media. and it e's a very 21st century bond agreement. it says he can't post or repost. he can't forward the posts of others on social media that has this effect. here's the two most ominous words in this entire agreement. direct or indirect. each of these categories that we see here, he's limited to no direct or indirect. what is an indirect threat to these witnesses? victims, co-defendants? donald trump is very free and easy on social media. that's a line he may cross. we'll see what happens. >> thinking about how modern this was. the judge would say, we're the worldwide web. we're far from that now, how

it's discussed. even though he has all of the legal challenges, the debate coming up on wednesday. some of the people who want to usa him in the rnc, are talking about how they would pardon him or offer a pardon, if they were elected president. listen to what they're saying. >> my top job is to reunite this country. and my way of doing that is to be pardon donald trump on day one. >> i take the pardon authority very seriously. it's an enormously important power of someone in an executive position. i think it's premature to have a discussion about that. we believe in our judicial system or we don't. >> would you commit to pardoning him on charges against him? >> i'm going to do what's right for the country. i don't think it would be good for the country to have an almost 80-year-old former

president go to prison. >> that's a yes? >> we shouldn't be holding out the fig leaf of a pardon because that undermines our jury system. i want to bring in washington correspondent for "the atlanta journal constitution." tia mitchell. jamell jaffer. and peter strzok. he's the author of "compromise." since wrote the book, i start with you, peter. you have seen and encured the wrath of donald trump many times. you're saying, no threats and beyond. >> i think given what trump has done, there's no way he's going to be able to honor the terms of release. the question is, when he

invariably violates it, what happens then? i think a judge brings in a book at a state or county level, that's probably the same thing. i expect, "a" trump is not going to be to abide by these conditions. when he does violate it, we'll see an escalating response by the court to get him back in line. you're asking something that is not in his nature. it's going to come to a conflict. >> we tell a baby not to cry, in some respects, right? he said, it may accelerate. you're talking about judge chutkan who said, the more you talk, the faster this court case is going to come. maybe a little reverse psychology in that realm. imagine you're his lawyer, did anyone just shudder? think that you're his lawyer. how do i make sure my case is

not more complicated here? what he says in one, would be interpreted other cases, as well. >> no doubt. his attorneys want to stretch this out. and norm is going to try to get this happening in the near term. i think they're going to work hard to create as much noise, sand in the ears as possible. the longer it goes, the better it is for donald trump politically. the more likely, if he is elected, to get rid of all of, if not some of, the federal charges, if he gets elected. >>naive. it might be good for him politically. but what about the voters? they want some resolution, or at least if this is going to be the albatross going around their neck for all of the policy discussions. or if it will be wiped clean

away. you cover atlanta. you know georgia so well in all of your journalism. tell me what you think is happening in fulton county, comparing this case to the others. >> the people of fulton county don't want violence. they want to see the justice system play out in a way that's fair, fair to donald trump, fair to the 18 co-defendants. but that keeps everything in the courthouse. people of atlanta are nervous about, pro-trump supporters showing up. is there going to be drama around, when they start turns themselves in. what the people of atlanta want

is what people of america want. they should think we have i imm immunity. and that the charges are worth pursuing to let him have his day in court. >> is georgia unique in that? georgia has been unique in the sense that their abover, secretary of state, lieutenant governor and beyond, held if line. they didn't campaign with donald trump. they were -- anyway, when you look at all this and think about the timing of it, it's one thing to have accountability. but accountability seems to lose steam if it's father away from the present time. >> it's better to have it sooner. i think we get two of the trials in 2024. the georgia case is uniquely important for accountability because it's not pardonable.

and we saw those clips. what has it come to in the united states, when you have public figures speaking against the equal applications of the laws. hundreds of the insurrectionists have gone to jail. georgia can't be pardoned away. it's okay if the georgia case, bigger case, takes longer. i think we will see the jack smith move like lightning. that will put the federal case in the wind of the sails of some of the other prosecutions. >> there's overlaps in witnesses and people have been charged. look at mark meadows. he has not been charged. he has been charged in atlanta. if you have exposure in both, as subject or a witness, you make a

calculation whether or not you're going to cooperate with the authorities, whether they're state or federal authorities. obviously, if you don't cooperate and trump is elected, you can get a pardon for a federal crime but not going to get that at the sate level. it will be interesting to see if we have dual, one federal, one state case, moving together at once. people in different roles. that's going to be interesting. and to nora's point, those are the people at the higher level. >> so fascinating. thank you so much. donald trump is facing severe resftrictions on what he can and cannot say, particularly on social media. what that means as he's running for president. we're going to talk about it, next.

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tonight, former president trump is facing charges in georgia. he's going to do it on thursday. after he was indicted there for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, guess what? that was joe biden under a host of rules under the bond agreement. want to bring in former nixon white house counsel john dean. and special watergate prosecutor, john sale. i got two johns today. nice to see both of you here with me. i'll begin with you, john. it's interesting to me what's happening. this is happening in state court. there's discussionss of removin it to federal court. mark meadows wants the state court charge to be dismissed. he says, this was all under the color of his position. all under his role as a federal government employee.

are you buying that at all? >> well, it's a good thing. >> is that for john dean? >> which john? okay. that's the j-o-h-n. go ahead, john. >> let me get a shot at it. i'm one who does not think the meadows motion will succeed. i think it will be turned down. while he was in a federal position, he wasn't undertaking the work of the white house when he went to georgia to get involved in the georgia election. i think it's a reach. they will have an evidentiary hearing shortly. and i think it will come out that he will not qualify as a federal employee to bring that removal action. >> after all, the idea of elections is the purview of the states. it's hard to understand what the chief of staff of the white

house would be doing in terms of allegedly meddling. rudy giuliani, john sale, and john chesebro, eastman, and sidney powell. these are co-defendants in the case. what do you make of their defenses? you have to have a viable federal defense. there's a common theme here. these are attorneys, as well. what do you think might be their defenses going ford? >> giving them a law lines license, doesn't give them the time to break the law. my friend, john dean, will recommend, that his boss, if he had contended, he was immune. he wouldn't have served 18 months in prison president's bidding.

each pemrson has a different defense. donald trump has a claim that he has an advice of counsel defense. he says he has an advice of counsel defense. he can argue, district attorney, you've taken away that defense because every one of the lawyers who gave me advice is a co-defendant. i'm not now -- i can't call them to testify because they will be sitting at counsel table with me and have a fifth amendment pri lidge. where all of the cases will have to be speparated and each tried on its own merits. >> i was hoping for a second on this. i always thought that by virtue of that advice of counsel defense, it sets up quite the acrimonious and contentious relationship. the privilege would exist. if you're engaged in a crime together, you don't get that same privilege. if you set that aside for a

second, are you suggesting that by virtue of being a co-de co-defendant, he would be better to say he cannot mount a viable defense because his attorneys cannot say if they acted in this way. couldn't testify the same way. the privilege belongs to the client. >> that's right. in order to confirm or corroborate whether or not they give gave himmed stris, whether he disclosed everything to them, whether he relied on that advice, he wants to call on the lawyers saying, here's the advice they gave me. he doesn't have the ability to call them because they are joined together. >> this case will be fraught with deliberation. there's a rico case going on right now, brought by the same district attorney. i can't imagine how this is happening. but it's been taking six months to pick a jury. i don't know how this can go to

trial. i think some of the case have a shot of going to trial long before the election. >> the point that the other john was talking about just now, and the idea of attorney/client prifagprif a privilege. and there's a total of 19 people. in the other cases we've seen against donald trump, mar-a-lago, or what's happening in washington, d.c., in the january 6th criminal indictment, i wonder what this growing web of people -- dallas a yearbook photo on the o screen right now as we are conversing. are you seeing parallels in terms to watergate? how many people are being pulled into this. by the way, people we've known about, the czisny powell and mark meadows. many other of the people, the names are not household neighbors to most people for any reason. >> the watergate special

prosecution force paired down the major trial and watergate, the cover-up trial. where nixon us a coconspirator. ehrlichman, the top defensive adviser. mitchell lee. and some lesser lights. but it wasn't a packed courtroom. it wasn't 19. i think it was six or seven at one point. some of them got suffered and dro dropped later. the process sort them out. i don't believe that 19 people are going to trial in this case. some of them, i think, will likely flip. the prison system in georgia is notorious for being a hell hole. and nobody wants to spend a day there. as i say, i think some of them will cooperate. others may find legitimate reasons to sever. some might go to federal court

on aremoval. some would stay in state court. the moves to federal court, it's still a state case. just tried in a federal building. we moo removal, would go to the northern state of georgia. that person would have an unpardonable offense, right? >> yes. >> a man of few words. john dean, john sale, thank you for being here, both of you. >> nice to see you, john. >> thanks. >> that was pleasant. most of the republicans are taking the debate stage on wednesday have something in common. you may not have noticed. but will it give them an advantage? i'm going to tell you what it is. give you a cliff-hanger. it's next. an get a little messy.

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the first 2024 republican off this wednesday. is kicking the field is big.

eight candidates are fully qualified to participate in this debate. of the eight, six are or were governors. florida governor ron desantis. former vice president and indiana governor mike pence. former south carolina governor, nic nikki haley. former new jersey governor, dris christy. and doug bergman, and asa hutchinson. what could their experience mean for the debate. i want to bring in massachusetts governor deval patrick. >> congratulations on the new show. >> i'm thrilled you are here today. we love to be able to pick your brain on so many important matters. thank you for joining me tonight. governor, there's a lot of governors that will be in this debate. a lot running for the presidency and the rnc nomination. over the other candidates, does being a governor give them an advantage?

>> i think executive experience is important. i'll be listening for two things. what are they for? a lot about what we hear about and from republican candidates for president and what it is they are against. what are they for? and the other thing i'll be listening for, are they interested in being president of all of us in the united states, or just those who agree with them. you hear from republicans who are turning on one another instead of 20 one another. and i think we need presidents and candidates for president who want to ask us and dually ask us to turn to each other. joe biden has shown that

leadership and that patriotic leadership. any of the governors have their work cut out for them. >> so much of the conversation, has little to do with those two questions that you're looking to find information about. if they go to face formidable, they have to get through the rnc nomination process. what is the best strategy? so far, it's to be quiet. his name is almost voldemort. they do not want to name him at this point or any point in game. he is the big elephant in the room. how do they strategize in a way that answers those two points?

>> i'm not a strategist that can help with that. if it has anything to do, he cannot be on the ballot. scholars from the conservative side and the more liberal side of the constitution saying he is disqualified from being on the ballot. >> i don't want to cut you off. to use a phrase we talked earlier, a scholarly debate or point, but presently, he is on the ballot. >> he is in the conversation. he is not on any ballot. i expect there will be, if needs to be, secretary of states to authorizing the ballots to keep

them off. it is unequivocal. he would be disqualified from being on the ballot. >> let's say he is on the ballot. i read the articles and thought about the discussions and the legal premise behind it. but there are those right now, former governor in the state of new jersey, chris christie, who has been talking about him being disqualified. not so much about the reasons you stated but because of his performance. how he was as president of the united states. i'm wondering if you think this upcoming debate is going to be substantive. or will it be about trying to address donald trump and not the policies? >> it ought to be some of both. there's content to offer in

rebuttal going forward. i think the big challenge for republicans generally is to break this pattern of who is going to outbully the next bully. i don't think americans want a bully as the president of the united states. we want someone who is unifying and a better future for all of us. the seen and unseen. the left out and left back. i don't think we're getting that from republican candidates so far. that's a real contrast to what president biden has offered and will offer. and the biden/harris administration has offered, going forward into the future. >> i'll tell you what, going forward and thinking about it, one thing the candidates as governors will have, that might be disadvantage to others, they do have a track record. whether you like it or not, they will have the proof of concept and how it's used in favor of them or against them, is what some of the candidates who never held office, will be able to

attack. deval patrick, nice talking to you. >> good luck. well, long dismissed sexual abuse cases against michael jackson's estate are revived. we'll break down the strength of the lawsuits and where we go from here and how we got here.

two men have long accused michael jackson of sexually abusing them when they were children. a california court is ruling that the two men can revive the lawsuit that had been dismissed

against two companies now owned by the jackson estate. they made detailed molestation allegations in a 2019 hbo documentary called "leaving never ne neverland." it's been a long, hard fight. they filed first in 2014 and in 2017, the cases were dismissed because it reached the limitation period. that changed when california passed a law in 2020, that allowed child sexual assault victims to move forward five yea years of realizing they suffered psychological injury up to the age of 40. their cases were revived. but again dismissed when the court ruled that the corporations were not legally required to protect them as children.

flash forward to this past friday, when the appeals court that the lawsuits could again resume. writing that, the corporation that facilitates the sexual abuse of children or one of its employees, is not excused of an affirmed duty to protect the children. solely because it was owned on the perpetrator of abuse. jackson deniied of allegations against accusers. he died in 2009. attorney for the estate for michael jackson said in a statement to cnn, quote, we are disappointed with the court's decision. later adding, we remain fully confident that michael is innocent of these allegations. joining me now is investigate i journalist and author of "be careful who you

love," inside the michael jackson case, diane dimond, and attorney riva martin. i'm glad to see both of you here today. i'm curious about the headline and the ruling ever since i saw it. let me begin with you, diane. you broke the news of an inappropriate relationship between michael jackson and a young boy in 1993. i wonder, based on then to now, so many years have passed. what was your reaction to friday's ruling reviving the ability to bring this to court? >> well, you know, i wasn't surprised. many states have gone into their statute of limitations. i know the two men's attorney. i think it comes down to this -- if the catholic church is

responsible for what its priests did, and the boy scouts are responsible for what their scouts did, that's what the appellate court rule, that the same supplies to the estate of michael jackson. >> i want to unpack that. they can sue the estate again? or he can be tried postmortem. this is about the courses. unpack why there is a distinction and whether the state can be challenged. >> what we know are, is the state is not a part of the lawsuits that are being revived. these are against two entities, that michael was the sole venture of. one was mjj productions. what the court is allowing for

these two cases, both cases have been dismissed. the 2013 and 2014 cases, based on statute of limitation. and now, the new law that california allows individuals to have, that might have been borrowed by the statutes. that's a huge victory of this case. and the court of appeals saying the lower court got it wrong by determining that the operations did not owe a duty of care to the individuals. it's interesting to note, the appellate court says there's no case law to site. i think the decision whether the corporations are solely owned by michael jackson and the court, goes on to talk about how he could have restrained himself. he could have conducted himself in a different way, not to harm the boys at the time. i don't think this is a settled

decision at all. two lower courts dismissing the cases. one appel lot court saying, you got it wrong, sendsing it back to the lower courts. whatever the outcome is, if this case moves forward to trial, we should expect to see continued appellate court litigation about this issue. and the responsibility of these companies. >> diane, you're nodding. a lot of reasons for people to lean in even more on allegations and cases the way they are, do the #metoo era belong in there? people delayed their reporting. they had a different notion of what a true victim is. and it causes people to look at this case, with a fresh set of eyes. you were in the court when one of the playoffs, testified. he testified in defense of michael jackson.

saying he was not a victim of molestation or anything inappropriate. gim given he is a plaintiff with this, were you splized he was there with a different story? >> you know, let's go back to 1993 when he was a little boy and i kept hearing his name come up over and over. maybe eventualens wasn't started then. i write about many of the employees at mjj productions who told me, we were lavishing gifts on them. and their mothers. anything they wanted. this is the crux of their claim. people in the entity aided and abetted michael jackson in the abuse of them.

it's not surprising that it took so long for the story to come forward. >> i know you're nod nodding, you had your fair share thinking about how this can unfold. michael jackson was not found criminally liable for the behavior he was accused of having committed. and the attorney representing the estate of michael jackson said this -- they remain fully confident that michael is innocent of these allegations. now, the case is, as you know, were consolidated in the appeals court, are going to go back to the trial courtroom. i'm wondering how many instances. many civil trials often end or end before they begin, in a settlement. do you expect there to be that outcome here? >> clearly, this kind of victory, when you had a case or cases dismissed twice and they are revived.

you speak about an insentive, this is what we're looking at here. lara, both of these men. they have made prior inconsistent statements. they have stated under oath that michael jackson never molested them, never assaulted them. if the cases move forward to trial, if there isn't a settlement, that will be a big issue for a lot of jurors. michael jackson is a beloved celebrity in his death. so, reconciling what we know about the delayed response, how victims often times suppress what happened to them and come forward later. juxtaposing that with the prior statements. i don't think it's a slam dunk on either side. >> something tells me this is not the end of even this conversation. thank you both for being here. another nfl player carded off the field.

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a scary moment when the remainder of a game between the patriots and the green bay packers when the cornerback suffered a frightening injury and was carded off the field in the fourth quarter. he was motion less when coming up to his teammate in that quarter. the team said he had feeling in all of his extremities. this is the latest injury this

preseason alone. and it can't help but remind people when damar hamlin had a cardiac arrest on the field in january. joining me now is rachel nichols here with us now. thank you for being here tonight. i mean, this injury, it was so scary to see, for so many people watching. it brought back painful reminders of what happened last season. his were different, right? >> absolutely. it was scary in the moment. you had the same beginning circumstances. he collapsed. was laying motionless in a rag doll position on the field. that's unbelievable to go through that, if you're a teammate of his and for all of the fans watching. damar hamlin, his heart stopped. if it wasn't for the quick thinking of the medical staff, he would have died.

this situation, it was clear that things were different. the legs were moving. and he had feeling in his extremities. he was kepts kept in the hospit overnights for observation. and allowed the fly back with the team on sunday morning. >> the game was called off. there was a question of what to do now. but noting on the concussion, there's been, i understand, an 18% increase in concussions in the nfl, comparing the last two seasons, by the way. is there a reason this is increasing all of a sudden? 18% now? >> yeah. a couple of things mashed together. the nfl to its credit, has broadened the definition of what a concussion is, to be in line of what medical experts suggest.

if you browden that out, you get more people. we have seen the nfl investigate different style of helmets. we've seen a guardian cap. i call it a foam thingy. some players are wearing it in practice. in those situations, concussions have decreased 52%. 52%. we know the result of concussions later in life. those are significant if those are cut in half. why don't we see this during a game. a lot of players don't want to change to something like that. it's hard to get them to play in something they are not used to. nfl can be slow to change as a league. they don't look great. it will be interesting to see if the helmet technology can catch up to the guardian caps that

people are okay with the helmets. or the nfl said, not right now. it's possible if the helmet technology can't catch up, you might see the guardian caps in a game some time soon. et threatics, and having it occur nonetheless. rachel nicoles, thank you so much. thank you all. everyone, for watching. our coverage here on cnn continues. baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. shop now only at sleep number.

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