cnn chief correspondent peyton walsh is in ukraine. i wonder what reaction you're hearing from ukrainian officials. prigozhin's forces fought in ukraine. they were some of the most brutal and they were highly involved in fighting in the east in recent months. what's the ukrainian reaction to this news? >> reporter: yeah, let me give you a brief reaction from someone serving right on the front line in the heart of the counteroffensive. initially they said maybe it is time for good champagne. a matter of minutes later said we need to see -- back fire there, forgive me. we need to see the dead body of prigozhin to be sure. that's the ultimate question. exactly, are we going to have ultimate proof that he is dead? we have a manifesto shared on russian state media which lists prigozhin as being one of the passengers on the plane. we have shocking footage of the

plane falling from the sky with a damaged wing. as you've often seen when it comes to air crashes, showing bodies on the floor. even an open transparent investigation using dna would struggle to go through a scene like that and be clear about every single person who had lost their life there. who indeed they were. instead, we have russian state media, russian state investigators launching into this investigation. these are the people in the pay of vladimir putin. they often channel his every word and wishful sometimes there's chaos. sometimes we don't always see a perfectly orchestrated plot. it's unclear what we're seeing here but the message is thick and fast and it is all pointing toward the possibility that yevgeny prigozhin is indeed dead. now, here's frankly a seminole figure. he was a she was with the military supply, who then turned the man who ran the factory that caused havoc in the u.s.

elections. he openedly admitted to being involved in trying to mettle in the electoral procedures, but also, in this war in ukraine, in charge of the bitterest, most brutal, most savage part of the military fighting here. the wagner group fought bitterly in africa as well. part of the military and paramilitary wing working around the world. the demise. prigozhin already being welcomed by some within the ukrainian government. it is important to point out since he led the extraordinary -- >> nick, i'm so sorry to interrupt you. we're going to come back to you. we do have to head to fulton county, georgia, where rudy giuliani is arriving as we understand it at the fulton county jail. he had worked out a bond agreement and this was the next step. sort of unusual compared to the other defendants here. he was working out the bond agreement and then turning right around, going to the fulton

county jail to be processed and then released which is what we've seen so far with most of these, most of the 19 co-defendants so far who have worked out a bond agreement and then reported for mug shots, finger printing and the like. >> and charged under the rico statute, which is known to prosecute organized crime figures, gangs, and what we should note when he was d.a., rudy giuliani used quite successfully to prosecute leaders of the mob families there. this is a moment for the former mayor of new york, former prosecutor of new york, and former presidential attorney. you can see rudy giuliani there walking in the center, following this agreement. he is arriving at the fulton county jail in light of the charges against him. >> and he's not the only one today. sidney powell, who was the trump campaign lawyer who was indicted

in this georgia election subversion case, has also surrendered at the fulton county jail in atlanta as well. >> our zachary cohen is in atlanta, i believe outside the court house, or the jail behind you there. tell us what you've seen as the president's, the former president's former personal attorney arrived there. >> reporter: we just saw an suv with tinted windows arriving here through entrance behind me. he was expected to surrender after a meeting with prosecutors to reach a bond agreement which we know he did. $150,000 bond was set. he now appears to be inside the jail turning himself in like several other defendants we've seen come and go in the last day and a half. so rudy giuliani is the most high-profile defendant we've seen in addition to the sidney powell, a fellow trump lawyer,

who has also appeared here today at the fulton county jail. >> a lot of action there. these are two pretty key figures. just to remind our viewers what they're going through. this is extraordinary. rudy giuliani walking into the fulton county jail. tell us a little about what he will go through, mugshot, fingerprinting, tell us about this process. >> reporter: rudy giuliani is probably more used to being on the other side of this equation. a storied prosecutor. he's used the rico statute to prosecute people in his past but now finds himself inside the jail. the other defendants we know who have surrendered to this jail have been fingerprinted, have been, have taken mugshots, have been treat like any other defendant in any other case would be. that come with the have caveat trump arrives here if he will be treated the same as the other

defendants have when they've turned themselves over to authorities. >> and a $150,000 bond agreement second only to trump himself. >> you see it based to severity and number of crime but also the position of the person in this quite broad group of indictments that the fulton county d.a. has issued here. >> that's right. let's go to kaitlyn polantz there outside the courthouse, as we are watching this extraordinary moment unfold. >> reporter: yeah. it is just so astonishing to see rudy giuliani and sidney powell both over at the jail, apparently at the same time. we no idea the last time these two people may have interacted. sidney powell was alongside rudy giuliani in those press conferences, in many of the public statements that they were making on behalf of donald trump

to try to undermine the public's faith in the election. and they were just these two prominent voices that became quite infamous for what they were doing for trump during his administration. not just after the election. giuliani, his personal lawyer during the mueller investigation. sidney powell carrying the banner for michael flynn, getting his guilty plea unraveled and coming to quite fame on doing that in a way that got her very close to donald trump and his inner circle of lawyers. so having those two people who had essentially been purged out of the trump universe after the 2020 election because of how the court planned that they had launched where they brought court cases to challenge the election results, to throw out popular votes. how that just totally failed across the board. in 60 cases or so, that after that, sidney powell had really split from what we know was the trump inner circle of lawyers

around rudy giuliani has clearly not been as closely kept by the president as someone in his inner circle since then, since donald trump has not been paying for either of their legal bills. now, to notice that they are in that jail in fulton county at the same time. but one thing that i should be really clear on with this, what sidney powell and rudy giuliani are charged with here is the racketeering charge, the same as donald trump is facing, as part of the whole group. when you look at the individual felony charges they're facing, rudy giuliani is facing as many charges as donald trump ultimately, and is the man that the prosecutors in this case say was behind so many pieces of the effort in georgia to unravel trump's loss. whereas sidney powell, what she's charged with outside of racketeering is specifically about what was happening in coffee county, the computer access to the voting machines, that scheme was one that the

prosecutors want to give her ownership of as they prosecute this case. now, both of them in the federal investigation around january 6th are co-conspirators, and we haven't seen what will happen with them. there has been, there have been quite a lot of people on tender hooks wondering are these two people going to face some sort of fallout from the federal system, too, as that investigation clearly continues on. >> as you reference there, rico, the racketeer influence and corruptions act which rudy giuliani used quite frequently to prosecute organized crime families there. now he has walked just moments ago, as we saw there, into that jail house in fulton county jail to surrender himself to face those charges. i believe we have ellie honig

available to us? there he is. former prosecutor himself. as you see this video we're playing here, to see rudy giuliani, former mayor of new york, former d.a. from manhattan, someone who prosecuted successfully so many, under under the act that he now faces charges under. tell us the significance of this moment. >> it is certainly a sobering moment and i think a reality hit for rudy giuliani. he was a long-time, very respected federal prosecutor. he was the u.s. attorney for the manhattan u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of new york in the 1980s. i had the honor of working there about 20 years later. and rudy was a figure who was convenient rated inside the justice department and inside the southern district of new york. one of his signatures was that he really pioneered an expansive view of the rico act to go after crime figures and others. now here he is surrendering into

a state, a county level jail, facing charges of rico violations of his own. it is quite a remarkable turn around and fall for rudy giuliani. of course, he is presumed innocent. he has made clear he intents to fight this case but he will be sitting on the other side of the courtroom from where he's used to. >> i wonder, eli, it was so closely tied to donald trump. i know he hadn't forgotten that. now you have this incredible dive also tied to donald trump. he is so far in debt. millions of dollars in legal bills, as we understand it. he's got hat in hand to the former president looking for assistance. he hasn't gotten it outright, though perhaps some overtures to help fundraise to get him some help. i just wonder what you think about the possibility that rudy giuliani might be someone who

could flip on the former president? or do you think that just isn't in the cards? >> reporter: it is worth reflecting on just how much legal and financial jeopardy rudy giuliani is in right now. he is indicted in the case we see him there in fulton county, georgia. he is also in jack smith's federal indictment. that could well result in him being indicted there as well. he's facing various civil suits from the two georgia election workers that he took aim at that he conceded that he wrongly spread lies at. he has all sorts of financial trouble. ordinarily i would say this is a situation for someone to flip. this is why people flip. they're facing potential imprisonment. however, rudy himself has shown zero indication of doing that. he is defiant. as recently as this morning leaving his apartment, he was quite defiant toward prosecutors and seemed to have no interest

accepting responsibility and i'm not sure a prosecutor would ever want to present giuliani as a witness, that you're asking a jury to rely. on i would have great hesitation as a prosecutor given his thorough lack of credibility. it looks like rudy intends to dig in and fight this case and i think that's what we're in for. >> speaking of witnesses who might flip or who have flipped, we did have the news in the last 24 hours in one of the cases that the former president is in with the documents in mar-a-lago, that one of the witnesses who was initially charged about lying about whether they attempted to delete security coverage, saying there was a plan to delete security footage that might have shown the movement of those boxes and classified documents. the significance of that regarding that case. >> so this is someone i would look to cooperate. it is not unusual to have

somebody who lies in their first interview or their first grand jury session. it's not ideal. you would rather have someone who comes clean from day one but this hamas. as a prosecutor, as long as you're convinced that a, the person has come clean. b, you can rely on them in front of a jury, and c, you can explain to a jury, here's why he lied the first time. the common explanation is he had a lawyer who wasn't working for him. the lawyer was being paid for and loyal to the trump organization. so i think jurors can understand that time of pressure to not come fully clean. it seems this person is potentially a 57 valuable witness for jack smith in that mar-a-lago case. >> this is a big day. sidney powell as well as rudy giuliani, what are you expecting here as we are going toward what is really the big appearance

tomorrow? especially knowing that some of these defendants, they actually turned. they in in the middle of the night. the fulton county jail has this 24/7 ability to accept people. so some people may be going during the day. it's a big show, right? they know they're going to be seen. some people are going in the dark of night and they aren't. >> it's a great play. as much as it is remarkable, surreal, bizarre in a way to see people who were once powerful public officials, once respect in the legal community, rudy giuliani, perhaps sidney powell eventually, donald trump go into a prison to surrender, the way this has been playing out has been very routine and i mean that in a good way. this is the way it is supposed to work. this happens every day in prosecutors' offices across the country. you get together, prosecutors and defense lawyers. you work it out, they go through the motions, they're

fingerprinted, they have their mugshots taken. we're still not entirely sure whether donald trump will have his taken. in a few weeks, we'll have an arraignment. they'll be advised of their rights and they will presumably enter not guilty pleas. there is a bit of dissonance between seeing these people who are powerful, well-respected people who have had precipitous falls in their life but they're entitled to fight their cases. yet they're entered into the most routine aspects of our criminal justice system now. >> we are continuing to cover this, obviously. a big development. rudy giuliani coming to a bail agreement in fulton county. $150,000. that's pretty big. trump at $200,000. his is only the second highest to the president himself. there are conditions that i wonder what you think about. conditions where he can't talk to someone who might be a witness. tell us about how he navigates

that, considering that his good friend bernie kerik who is accompanying him on this trip is an unindicted co-conspirator here. what does he do here, rudy giuliani? >> if he was being super careful, he would cut ties with anyone who is a witness or a potential victim in this case. i do think that as long as they're not discussing the case, i don't know that that would violate any of the conditions. how does that get policeded? it is probably a natural question. the answer is it is an imperfect process. judges and police are the only ones who can police it. so i think rudy giuliani will have to walk a pretty narrow tight rope as will donald trump as well. if people are wondering about these numbers, $200,000 for trump, $150,000 for rudy. they don't have to post all of that in cash. typically you have to post 10%. there are ways in georgia you can find a surety without

posting any of it. if you're wondering how they arrive at these numbers, it is based on the numbers but it is negotiated between the prosecutor and the defense attorney. you come to a number that will be reasonable to ensure that the person comes back. that's how they came at this $150,000 number. >> we continue to cover two major breaking stories. that of rudy giuliani, the former president's former personal lawyer, as well as sidney powell, two people central to trump's efforts to overturn the election in georgia. giuliani arriving there to surrender at the fulton county jail. you saw it moments ago. there he is. the former presidential personal attorney as well as new york mayor during 9/11 and d.a. in new york in the 80s. he prosecuted many people. organized crime leaders under the very same statute he is now walking into the courthouse to surrender for. we are following another

major breaking story overseas. this news that yevgeny prigozhin, the leader of the wagner -- there you see him -- the group so central to operations around the world under putin. he was listed among the passengers on a plane that fell from the sky. you see the video right there, crashing into a fiery pile of wreckage. still unconfirmed as to whether prigozhin died in that crash. the russian state media says he was on the passenger list. they've covered eight bodies. we continue to cover this story as well. we're taking just a short break. , ear ringing, and d even hearing loss. never miss a moment with lipo flavonoid. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! ly pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ stay off the freeways!

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we will bring you those comments live as soon as we have them. we continue to follow events overseas. that is reports that the leader of the wagner mercenary group pictured there was among those listed at least on the passenger manifest of a plan that went down, a fiery crash just outside of moscow earlier. this is a picture of it. video of it as it fell to the ground, missing one wing. moments ago, president biden commented on this. have a listen. >> i don't know for a fact what happened, but i'm not surprised. there's not much that happens -- >> not much that happens in russia that putin is not behind. we're talking to people who know putin very well. he led the station in moscow for

a number of years. two months ago to the day, yevgeny prigozhin pleads a failed coup. today a plane not just that russian state media says he was on the passenger list but a plane that cnn's own tracking of the tail number and registration numbers on the jets indicates this was a jet that belonged to him and he traveled on frequently. what do you believe happened here? >> yeah, jim, i think that a lot of russia watches like me after the mutiny that prigozhin led a couple months ago. we're asking, it's not really a question of if but when and how and i think the last two questions have been answered. it is interesting that it took putin two months to do this. i don't really think there's any doubt the russian government was somehow involved in this, directly involved. it did take two months and that's going to be an interesting question going forward. i think it might have something to do with concerns on the kremlin side by putin that prigozhin had a certain level of

basically, enjoyed a certain level of support. we saw the footage on that. i think if you turned around and murdered him, killed him quite obviously soon after that mutiny, perhaps he was concerned about some pushback from the russian people. this is really no surprise. it is interesting. it will be interesting to see how the russians spin this. we will never know the whole truth but we will get some clues, depending on what the kremlin says. >> but steve, also, two months to the day to be clear of when that coup that ultimately fizzled out began. i wonder what you think that two months of yevgeny prigozhin, you know, going back to africa and sort of, in a way, providing a bit of a transition, right? he wasn't just all of a sudden axed from wagner when the coup happened. instead, there was this two

months. and i wonder what you think that time may or may not have bought putin for some sort of transition or getting the house in order to make sure that wagner could provide for him and for russia, what it does. >> yeah, i think there are a number of different issues with the timing. it is true, putin is partial to anniversaries and using them symbolically so i think there's a good argument saying there might be some connectivity there. that is certainly true. i think putin felt the need to put a little distance between the mutiny and the repercussions of the inevitable end for prigozhin. again, if he had done it very quickly, i think there could have been some rt sow of back lash from the russian populous themselves, from the people on the streets. that shows, i think, how weakened putin has become. simply because he appears to have been able to successfully off yevgeny prigozhin doesn't

mean that he is returning, or has returned to the status that he had before of being a really all in control strong man of russia. i think he is significantly weakened. he needs to send a message. don't mess with me like this or this is what will happen to you. he's very good at sending that message. >> we've been getting reaction from around the world. the estonian president said if these reports are troorgs it shows putin will eliminates opponents and that scares anyone. we've seen him take out other dissidents and opponents before, people he used as traitors. wagner forces have played a very prominent role until recently. >> reporter: yeah, a very brutal war, frankly, using some pretty awful tactics including the use of prisoners to use them as cannon fodder. we're hearing from a key figure

in the presidential office. the presence of volodymyr zelenskyy. one of his advisers saying that while they're still waiting to see how the fog of war clears, there is no clear confirmation that prigozhin has indeed died on a plane crash that he is listed being part of. it is obvious that prigozhin signed a special death warrant for himself the moment he believed that lukashenko's bizarre guarantees and putin's equally absurd words of honor. he's essentially referring to the deal brokered by luke shenko that ended the rebellion two months ago that led yevgeny prigozhin and his men on the door all the way to moscow on the highway. they thought at the start to remove top brass in the russian military who were behind what they thought was the appalling conduct of the russian vacation. it turned into a much bigger challenge for vladimir putin.

the biggest he'd had in 24 years. so it is not exactly at this stage what happened to yevgeny prigozhin. the preponderance of information swirling around this plane crash would suggest that he is on board. i should point out, we did not know where he was for days after the failed armed rebellion. there were apparent sightings of him in a mosque getting on a helicopter in st. petersburg. there were suggestions his plane was headed to belarus. the fact that he's on this passenger manifest of this rare private jet linked to him tracked around the world is a clear indication something is afoot. the way russian state media has leaped upon this and put the manifest out early would suggest that he may have passed but, until essentially we see some clear proof that he has died, or recognition from those around him in the wagner group that is indeed the case, this is still a deep mystery. i should point out, too, the

investigator here of the gruesome remains of a plane crash, we've seen images of a plane crash. if that were done by western investigators using dna technology, that would be tough. instead we're dealing with russian state media. a clear agenda media. you should hear the things they said about the ukrainian war. they say what they're told and it is unclear quite what they'll be told at this point. instead we have this remarkable mystery of exactly how prigozhin survived this long, and quite what happened to little that led him to be listed as being on this plane. >> it's a great point. russian investigators do not have a good track record of creditably investigating events like this, looking at evidence of what brought that plane down. they've lied about it in the past, again, if you look at the experience of mh-17. that's an important point.

to get true answers, you would needle a reputable group. >> if russian officials get there first, even if there is a reputable group going in. i want to go to kylie atwood who is covering the state department for us. it's really interesting. we've heard from a number of american officials, including the secretary of state sort of warning in a way some foreboding that something like this might happen, kylie. >> reporter: that's exactly right. comments we've seen from top biden administration officials over the course of the last two months here really demonstrate that they were publicly willing to say that they believe that prigozhin still had a target on his back. that he could be killed by the kremlin because of this coup that he failed to carry out when he staged that march on moscow. and we should note that it came

from administration officials across the board. president biden warned that prigozhin should be careful about the food that he was eating. cia director bill burns agreed with that assessment and said prigozhin shouldn't fire his food taster and said that putin is the, quote, apostle of paybacks saying he would be surprised if prigozhin were to escape further retaliation. the secretary of state antony blinken said that russian has an open window policy. so all of they will being very clear saying, even though there was a certain period of time where perhaps things had been smoothed over or there was a perception that thing were smoothed over between putin and prigozhin with the two meeting and prigozhin trying to say that what he was doing was really just to protect wagner or not to go after the kremlin, u.s. officials were still saying that prigozhin wasn't safe. i talked to one u.s. official today who said that he has been

a dead man walking for a while now. so comments like that help to inform what we are seeing are these early comments coming out of the white house and from president biden himself saying they aren't surprised if these reports coming out from russian state media are indeed true. >> we're also joined by lieutenant general mark hertling, i believe. if he is present -- there you are. you know well the capabilities of the u.s. military with events like this. satellites can see and monitor explosions both in the air and any explosion that could conceivably have taken place prior, including the launch of a missile prior, or a missile detonating in an explosion like this. can you explain what u.s. military experts would be doing? >> you mentioned this. at the end of the last hour, and

you were right on target. i would venture to say the u.s. intelligence systems across the board, if they had a platform over russia and no doubt they do, if you're talking about the route between moscow and st. petersburg, i'm sure there's coverage of that. they will pick up any heat signature from anything on the ground or they will pick up an explosion that occurs in the sky. so we can could not ject and have a bunch of aircraft analysts on to say what might have happened and how it would have affected this falling plane that you're seeing now on the screen. i would say the u.s. intelligence community probably already has a pretty good idea of it. and what does this mean, this is the point where truthfully i don't give a fig if prigozhin was in this crash or not. what i'm concerned is what is going on inside the russian military? there have been rumors that mr. putin kind of transform the

military to take over all the private military companies, the pmcs that prigozhin led. if the loyalty as mentioned toward prigozhin by his thousands of mercenaries. they will be upset because they get paid well in the pmc and most russian soldiers don't. you're talking about a split between these pmcs and the regular military, number one. if the two leaders of the ministry of defense in russia have now taken claim to revamp the military during a time of war at the same time where it appears ukraine's momentum is steadily increasing, although it is still slow, we're going to see some really interesting thing. this is not a good time to start re-forming the military to try to address the failures and the dysfunction -- >> jim, no, it may not be.

general, if you can stand by, we are monitoring two breaking story, very different stories. i want to go now to georgia and fulton county where zach cohen is standing by as we are awaiting word from rudy giuliani. actually, let's go to nick valencia there in atlanta to tell us about what you are seeing and expecting. >> reporter: it's chaos here to be quite honest. it is a circus. a lot of media anxiously awaiting the former mayor of new york, the former attorney for the former president. we are looking at his, what appears to be his vehicle exiting the jail right now. he seems to be held up by some sheriff's deputies. he's all but guaranteed that he wanted to make a statement to the media after being arrested, and after surrendering. we are standing by with a host of others with networks from around the world waiting for giuliani to comment. ahead of his expected press conference, we have been talking to an individual who identified

himself as an adviser to the mayor. he briefly talked about the bond agreement negotiated with the district attorney's office in fulton county. he didn't say much else, saying he would leave it to rudy giuliani to speak about the process. we heard giuliani leave new york city earlier this morning where he said this was politically motivated, he would be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor like him with a record like his in the last 100 years. the irony of a man who literally used the rico statute in the '80s to take down the most violent criminals this country has ever seen only to be indicted with the same statute. it has been an incredible fall from grace who is known as america's mayor. for him to be on the other side of the justice system. one of the outstanding questions here that we want to ask him, who exactly paid for the plane, the private plane, we understand, that he used to travel down here from the northeast to georgia. last we heard, giuliani was

running out of money and having difficulty finding local representation to take him through this bond agreement process. another question is if he regrets tafg his name to the former president. he has been held accountable by the prosecutors' office here, meeting with georgia lawmaker at least three time after the former president lost the 2020 election. he met with georgia lawmaker three time to spread conspiracy theories and election lies. in those conversations with georgia lawmaker. we caught up with him when he testified in front of the special purpose grand jury and asked him if he lied to the grand jury when he spoke. he testify as well in front of the special purpose grand jury. that was the body that gathered the evidence that preptd charging recommendations to district attorney fani willis who took her case to the grand jury to ultimately get indictments against 19 co-defendants. as we stand here outside the fulton county jail on a very hot wednesday in atlanta, we're waiting for rudy giuliani to come before the cameras to make a statement.

>> we also have zach cohen outside the fulton county jail. that's where the charged have been surgeorendering. they. >> reporter: we're all just waiting for rudy giuliani to leave the jail. he went in roughly a little under an hour ago. we have been told he will come out and speak to reporters. as nick mentioned, rudy giuliani did speak to reporters before he got on the plane to come to atlanta and he sounded a lot like donald trump. he was very defiant. he said the prosecutors were coming after him for doing his job as an attorney and adviser to the former president. he also said that the lawsuits that he file, the work that he did on behalf of trump was all valid. that precludes that rudy giuliani did also try to overturn the 2020 election and claimed that it was stolen and echoed the baseless claim of widespread voter fraud without ever producing any evidence to support those facts. as we wait for rudy giuliani to

emerge from the jail, it was interesting to see, did he take a mugshot, did he get fingerprinted like the other defendants we know of yesterday and today. >> we have evan perez onset. nick valencia brought up the question, does he regret attaching himself to the former president? this is the suv with tinted windows. so we'll be awaiting to see if he says anything. and as we do that, evan, he has been so outspoken. no indication that he regrets attaching himself to the former president. >> right. this is despite that the former president from our reporting has rejected his efforts, his pleas to help pay for some of his legal defense. it appears that he maight try t change that in the coming days. you heard as he left his apartment building today, almost speaking to an audience of one. you see him there emerging.

it appears he's trying to emerge from this car -- >> the camera. >> let's listen in. i think this is a rather chaotic situation. and let's see what's going on there. >> if you want to hear from the mayor, please, go to the spot that we all agreed on. we agreed to do it over there. please, guys. please. we're not going to get out. we're not going to get out. come on. i know you. gary, get over there. come on! >> as we've been saying, giuliani is expected to make comments. that's the back door to the suv. it appears they made arrangementes with reporters there. giuliani was speaking to an audience of one when he was saying, it's my right to be a lawyer. they're destroying my right to counsel. that was his comment this morning. >> and he pointed out, what he said was they're going after all the former president's attorneys because john eastman, of course, the powell people who provided

legal advice to the former president. >> let's listen in. >> mr. giuliani, who paid for your jet? >> i'm going to stand -- >> who paid for your jet down here? do you regret attaching your nail to the former president? >> do i what? >> do you regret attaching your name to the former president? >> i am very, very honored to be involved in this case. because this case is a fight for our way of life. this indictment is a trave an attack on not just me, not just president trump, not just people in this indictment. some of whom i don't even know. this is an attack on the american people. if this can happen to me, who is probably the most prolific prosecutor maybe in american history and the most effective mayor for sure, it can happen to you. >> how does it feel to be on the other side of the justice system? >> don't interrupt me.

i'm making a statement. if they can do this to me, they can do this to you. remember, three years ago, the fbi raided my apartment and they investigated me for two and a half years. 20 years of my life they investigated and they wrote a letter to the grand jury that they couldn't find a single crime. so that should have pretty much cleared me of the don't you think? except for this ridiculous case in which i'm being prosecutor for defending an american citizen who i do as a lawyer. and five other lawyers are indicted. that'll should tell you right away that this is an assault on our constitution. fani willis will go down in american history as having conducted one of the worst attacks on the american constitution ever when this case is dismissed. she has violated people's first amendment right to advocate the

government, to petition the government for grievances, an election they believe was poorly conducted or falsely nuged. people have the right to believe that in america. biden and the biden state doesn't have a right to tell you what the truth is. and number two -- number two -- i will tell you, if you need to know what this is all about, the fbi stole my icloud account. you know when they stole it? the day that i began representing donald trump three years ago. they gave it back the day after i represented donald trump. so for all that time, the federal government was spying on donald trump and his lawyer. i am being indicted because i'm a lawyer, as -- >> last month -- mr. mayor --

>> will you here tomorrow? >> you're wrong. i didn't do that. i entered into a stipulation for the purposes of that case to move on. i specifically said, i do not in any way admit the truth of those allegations. those allegations are totally false. >> do you still believe the election was rigged, mr. giuliani? >> wrong and you're lying as you often do. if you read it, it says it was only for the purposes of that case and it was not an admission. >> do you still believe the election was rigged? mr. giuliani, do you still believe the election was rigged? >> good job. stay with him. >> there was rudy giuliani, donald trump's former personal lawyer making his case for innocence. in effect saying, his exact words were, people have a right to believe. that he's referring to a stolen election. let's listen in. he might still be commenting. >> got it. >> they took the whole thing.

they may take -- [ inaudible ]. >> we have with us norm and evan with us. he's making the case, norm eisen, that there is nothing wrong with believing, even if wasn't true, that the election was stolen and therefore pursuing every legal outlet to contest the election. what is your response to that? the defense, as it were. >> well, there are two problems with the defense that has been previewed here. the first is, the evidentiary basis and the second is the legal basis. on the evidentiary basis, it will be very difficult to persuade a jury that the 2020 election was stolen. a variety of courts and other authorities have definitively -- >> whether it was true or not, they believed it. >> that brings us to the legal

insufficiency. take this january 2nd call to raffensperger. just find 11,780 votes. you owe me $11,780. if i break into your house no matter my good faith belief, there are laws. >> it's more than that. the former president and rudy and all these people, they actually filed lawsuits. about 60 lawsuits. >> it's actions. >> right. and they were rejected. >> so there is a process by which you can make, you can put forward those claims and they were adjudicated. they were seen by the courts. the republican leadership of georgia said that it's not true. what else is there that you can do? >> these are actions based on claims that are false and that they know to be false. in some cases, there is actual

written documentation that they were aware they were false. >> i think what we're seeing is beginning with his apartment speech this morning, and those comments just now, the former president, i'm sorry, the former president's lawyer is hugging the former president as tightly as he can. he needs him to help pay for his legal fees. he needs him desperately. he has decided that all of his eggs are in donald trump and he neds to make sure that he stays as close as possible. >> let me ask you for your expert advice. another hole in his argument there is that for instance, when you're dealing specifically with the fake elector's scheme. they continued to pursue that plan. >> that is another one of these actions that we're talking about. beyond the lawsuits. they fabricated, allegedly, electoral certificates.

those have no more legal validity than counterfeit documents. and then to pile on top of the actions, there was a scheme here allegedly, and we have to remember mr. giuliani and all these defendants, innocent until proven guilty. >> can we just say this video that you're looking at is rudy giuliani, and i believe, is that bernie kerik with him, to be clear? walking into a bail bond office. is that what you call it? >> right. a bail bond office. that's the process by which they either put up the money to secure the bond that they've already signed, and they does not present himself for the proceedings that he'll owe this money to the bondsman. >> bail bonds is the name of the place. this is the former president's former personal attorney, by the way former mayor of new york city, former prosecutor himself, who sent many folks he

prosecuted to bail bonds offices, bondsman offices like that in the past. now he himself is walking through that door. >> exactly. the historic nature of this, the man who was perhaps the most well-known prosecutor now having put so many people to surrender for arrest, to get bail bond, to be put on trial, to be indicted, now himself on the other side. >> question -- is giuliani the only one who would need to go -- can we presume that the former president will need to get similar insurance as it were? >> we don't know how he's going to pay for the bond. >> might himself -- >> right. he's allegedly a billionaire, so he can do that himself. you know, certainly from our understanding he's -- he can and is expected to use a bondsman, as well. it's a way for you to just put up minimal amount of money to

make sure your continued freedom is still there. >> i do not expect we will be seeing him walk into a second chance or any other bail bondsman shop to deal with this. but to the point we were talking about this idea of words versus actions because we hear rudy giuliani making a point of saying this is a first amendment issue, which we know very clearly it isn't. but i wonder who he's speaking to because supporters -- we know he's speaking to donald trump. but also supporters of donald trump. when you talk to a lot of them, they're not necessarily aware of this fake electors scheme in the states. the information they are consuming doesn't mention it. they're insulated from knowing about it. so the actions parts of it, they see the speeches before the riots on the capitol. and that is really, i think, what informs them of what is happening. there are a lot of missing pieces for them that are not missing in these legal

documents. >> well, it's two different courts. it's the court of public opinion, that's one thing. >> yeah. >> but this case is moving briskly. mr. giuliani is going to have to face a court of law, ultimately a jury of his peers. and these kinds of arguments as a elderly matter, the first amendment argument, there is no first amendment right to say words or take actions that constitute a crime. if i go to the bank, stick them up, and i get arrested, no, i can't claim a first amendment defense. so it's shocking, it's hard to process the allegedly illegality of what happened here. but at least the allegations are that it's not just contrary to the facts but so contrary to the law to have fake electoral certificates to tell the vice president he could walk into congress and just recognize the losers' electoral certificates, or suspend the whole procedure and send it back to friendly legislatures to adopt the

electors of the loser -- i mean, that's beyond. that's why these legal defenses are unlikely to avail. >> we should note while the former president and his attorney there attack the whole proceedings, as they have all these proceedings as the work of the radical left, you have the former vice president, republican, who said what the president at the time asked him to do was not legal or constitutional. and you have others involved and many of the witnesses in this case are, as you were saying, georgia state republican officials, governor election officials, and so on down the line. >> one of the most important things is that as soon as early next week we're going to get a test of this argument that they're making which is that what they were doing, what mark meadows was doing, and what rudy giuliani and some of the others were doing was in the service of the former president, and under his official duties. and as a result, they deserve for this case to be essentially moved away from the state court and brought to federal court. and then perhaps they'll take

the second step, we expect to take the second step which is to say you got to dismiss this case. and so we'll see whether a federal judge -- we'll get the first taking of the temperature so to speak. i think norm has -- he has a strong idea about where this will go. but look, i mean, these are valid -- these are very strong arguments they're making. these are very good lawyers that they have, especially mark meadows. and so we anticipate that they're going to get a fair hearing from some very serious judges. >> on the removal evidence right, what we'll get first is a kind of a dipping of a toe into the legal questions because all that meadows and the others have to show -- and some of who have filed, david schaefer, the republican party chair, claims he was an officer of the united states. i mean, come on. but meadows has a more serious argument. clark a little worse serious argument. all they have to show is was it under color.

but as evan says, it's an important test because these acts appear to have been so far beyond -- they're alleged to have been so far beyond what we call the outer perimeter of official duties that it may not even meet that very, very forgiving test for an initial consideration. >> if it does, it would be adjudicated in a federal court, but as you noted many times, under state law. and therefore would not allow for a presidential pardon. or is that -- is that a question for the courts? >> no, it is a question, but the -- that is probably clear. the -- in a removal , there's one up in the northern district of georgia now, in a removal case the substantive law for the state, all of these criminal statutes that are in the indictment, the substance and law of the state is applied by the court. the procedural law will be federal procedural law.

but pardons in the constitution it says they're offense against the united states. these are offenses against georgia. so this -- even if it goes to federal court, not pardonable. that doesn't mean people won't litigate it. >> that's right. and they r. i don't think we got this in because we've had so much going on here on both of these stories, but fani willis, the d.a., as she was asked because there was a deadline of 3:00 p.m. today, she had to respond to mark meadows on this. she told a federal court that it should not interfere in any efforts to arrest mark meadows should the former white house chief of staff fail to turn himself in by friday's deadline. in a court filing she called his request improper and baseless. she said the hardship facing the defendant is no different than any other criminal defendant charged with a crime including his co-defendants who have either already surrendered to fulton county authorities -- which is true, there's one arguing the same thing who's surrendered -- or have agreed to so surrender in the time allotted by the district attorney. >> that's key, right. meadows is saying i shouldn't

have to turn myself in. judge, let me ignore the state court. and you know, it's a very tough argument to make especially because everybody else has turned themselves in. you could -- meadows can make his argument very reasonably after he's done that, but he's trying to forestall that. he's trying to push this judge to save him the indignity that you're seeing there rudy giuliani. and i get it. it's -- it is an indignity that you don't want to necessarily go through, but it is the thing that all of them are going to have to go through. >> is there a conservative/liberal legal theory split on whether the state or federal court holds precedence here? >> i don't think it's a conservative/liberal division. look, when i worked in the white house, i was a strong adherent of these laws because you do want federal officials to be protected. but there's also a long

tradition in the supreme court of saying if you go outside the outer perimeter, if you're not under color of law, if it's not really an official act, and here the allegation is these are political acts when you call brad raffensperger just find 11,780 votes. there's no constitutional duty to find votes in a state election. there liberals and conservatives agree if you color out the lines, you're not protected. >> as you noted many times, our system is run so that the states run those elections, rieght, an then you go to congress. well, quite a day here on cnn. and the day continues. certainly legal developments in the courthouse and the jailhouse in fulton county. but these remarkable developments overseas with the possible death of the man who just two months ago to the day challenged putin in a way he'd never been challenged before. >> that's right.

yevgeny prigozhin on that passenger list of a jet that crashed northwest of moscow. still details to be worked out here, but this comes amid a bit of a reckoning for vladimir putin's enemies, perceived and real following that coup two months ago to the day. and also, of course, watching what's happening in fulton county where we just saw rudy giuliani, the former president's former lawyer, booked on $150 bond. extraordinary, booked in jail, and then off to a bail bondsman to secure that process. something the likes of which you just don't really see. to all of our guests, thank you so much. >> "the lead" with jake tapper with much more news on this starts right now. welcome to "the lead." i'm erica hill in for jake