fair trial versus first amendment. i'm michael smerconish. can donald trump campaign within

the parameters of his release? trump was booked on thursday in georgia. his fingerprints and mug shot recorded. his release was determined by a bond order filed with the court three days prior. it was agreed to by the judge, the district attorney fani willis, and three trump lawyers. it enables trump's release upon post ing the bond, by the way kind of interesting that ending cash bail has become a rallying cry, but not in this case. more important going forward are the limits placed on trumps's release. he was warned not to threaten or intimidate witnesses or co-defendants. the defendant shall perform no act to intimidate any person known to him or her to be a codefendant or witness in this case or to otherwise obstruct the administration of justice. this shall include but not limited to the following. here's but one example. the defendant shall make no direct or indirect threat of any nature against any codefendant.

the limitations on trump, more restrictive hasn't those placed on any of the other 19 defendants in this case. trump's order included limitations on his use of social media, incolluding reposts. the above shall include but not limited to posts on social media or reposts of posts made by another individual on social media. on monday, prior to his bond being set, trump had taken to truth social to attack fani willis. he called her crooked, incompetent and highly partisan. the bond agreement doesn't seem to have deterred him. on thursday prior to his court appearance, trump turned to truth social and posted, then deleted, then reposted this. i have to start getting ready to head down to atlanta, georgia, where violent crimes have reached levels never seen before to get arrest ed by a district attorney fani willis.

by the way, trump has similarly attacked the federal judge presiding over the january 6th case. he's called her very biassed and unfair. then after being booked, trump spoke to the media adjacent to trump force one. >> i believe this is a sad day for america. if you challenge an election, you should be able to challenge an election. i thought the election was a rigged election, a stolen election. i should have every right to do that. you have many people that you have been watching over the years do the same thing, whether it's hillary clinton or stacey abrams or many others. when you have that great freedom you have to be able to challenge or you're going to have dishonest elections. it's a travesty of justice. we did nothing wrong. i did nothing wrong. everybody knows it. i have never had such support and that goes for the other ones too. what they are doing is election interference. they are trying to interfere with an election. there's never been anything like it in our country before. this is their way of

campaigning. this is one instance, but you have three other instances. it's election interference. >> here's the thing. unless donald trump changes his way, i don't think there's any way he can run a trumpian campaign without running afoul. it's an uncharted area. how to reconcile the first amendment rights with the court's desire to hold a fair and unboys trial free of intimidation of witnesses and jurors. in the history of the country, we have never been here before. does trump get treated like any other defendant or any other defendant running for president. trump's campaign thus far has been all about his indictments. since announcing his candidacy last november, his campaign has been all about responding to criminal investigations, and to date, at least up until the first debate on wednesday night for republicans, the polls show he's benefitted politically from his legal peril. but how might it play out now?

if fulton county prosecutors can convince the judge that trump violated the bond order, the judge can issue a gag order that if trump violates the gag order, they can hold him in contempt or send him to jail. prosecutors pushing that envelope just shy of jail could play political dividends for trump. considering he didn't wait for his real mug shot, his campaign was already selling fake mug shot s on t-shirts and bearing the date of his new york indictment, notwithstanding, that he was not mug shotted in that case. as soon as the georgia mug shot was released, the campaign immediately began fundraising off of it and this became his first post on x, formerly known as twitter, since elon musk allowed him back on the platform. this all might help trump recapture the white house. as pointed out by barbara mcquaid, a university of michigan law professor and former u.s. attorney, it's a

win-win situation for him. if he's not gagged and jailed, he can disparage prosecutors and witnesses with impunity. if he is jailed, he can portray himself as a victim of persecution. what does it say about us, for those who support trump, does it say theydon't support the rule law or they value personal freedom over political prosecution? for those who support the prosecution, does it mean they believe in politically weaponizing the prosecutor's office or does it mean they value the rule of law? so many americans seen locked into one camp or the other unwilling or unable to recognize theest merits to the other side is perhaps the greatest and longest lasting threat, one which corrodes our body politic and our justice system. joining me now to discuss is francesca, assistant law professor at vapder bill.

professor, thank you so much for being here. can donald trump continue to say the election was rigged? >> yes, he can continue to say the election was rigged. donald trump has the same rights, the same first amendment rights as any criminal defendant, which include the rights to criticize our government, to criticize the court system, and to express his opinion about all of his trials. but he does not have the right to obstruct the administration of justice, and that includes through his speech. that would include through threats or direct intimidation to those involved in his trials, and that's the same for any criminal defendant. but that should not get in the way of expressing his opinion about the election. >> so you have heard just a sampling of some of that, which

he has said about the judges involved in these cases. does any of that which i just shared run afoul of the court order? does it jeopardize his ability to be free on that bond? >> i don't think it does yet, but we shall. as you noted, he tends to escalate his rhetoric. so far, by my analysis, he's still within the realm of criticism, and these words can be deplorable. they can be dangerous, but the first amendment allows us to say a lot of deplorable and dangerous things, but it does not allow us to obstruct the fair, safe, effective m administration of justice. if he crosses the line from insult to intimidation, then we have a problem. >> okay, here's another one. so in the debate on wednesday night, the conduct on january 6th of then vice president mike pence was at issue. by the way, he seems to have

received uniform praise from those who were at the stage or at least agreement he did the right thing. what if donald trump takes on mike pence relative to how pence handled the events of january 6th? after all, that goes right to the heart of this prosecution. then does he run afoul of the gag order? >> he will run afoul of the order if his words appear to be intimidating either what pence might say in another case or this case as a witness, or appear to be intimidating to other folks who might be witnesses in the case. it's going to be contextual. the first amendment is not black and white. free speech is not black and white. but that is true for all of us. the judge is going to have a hard time, but this is what judges do every day. i'm sure the judge is well versed in how to draw these fine lines between what crosses the

line from insult to intimidation. he he can attack politically. what he cannot do is intimidate him or anyone else who might be a witness in this trial so that they might change their testimony or be too scared to engage in -- to truthly and effectively show up in this process. that will be a tough job for the judge, but i'm sure he's up for it. >> you're channelling potter stewart, i think. it's the old it's very hard to define exactly what we're talking about that would run afoul of the order that enabled his release. you get the final word. >> so what's going to matter here is how direct are his words. is he speaking to specific individuals, how reckless is he being with his language. he has a large bully pulpit. context matters. he's towing that line. he's right up to it.

i don't think he's crossed it yet, but i'm sure his lawyers are wary and he would do well to stick to the politics and not to try to interfere with the trial. >> professor, thank you for your expertise. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> what are your thoughts? hit me up on social media. i'll share some responses throughout the course of the program. eric says, trump could choose his vp and have the vp say whatever trump wants to say. i adopt think he's looking to delegate the responsibility. i think he relishes the opportunity to defend himself, but as we go forward, the reason i wanted to make this front and center is that i think this is the looming issue. how far will he push it, what will be the response from the judge in this case, and whether it will continue to be to trump's benefit to tout the fact that he's now four-time indicted. i want to know what you think on a different issue. go to smerconish.com and answer the poll question.

is the existence of donald trump's mug shot a political plus or minus for him? up ahead, debates are usually a war of words, but when the candidates were asked who would support trump, even if he's convicted, i thought this moment spoke volumes. and two months to the day after yevgeny prigozhin led a brief insurrection against vladimir putin, he seems to have died in a plane crash that's now being attributed to a catastrophic incident. putin is talking about him in the past tense. he seems to have joined an ever-growing list of putin enemies, who suddenly died or been poisoned. is anybody surprised? buy one footlong in the app, get one free. for freeee. that's what i'm talking abouou. order in the subway app today. our ears connect us to the moments that matter. give them the nutrients they need with lipo. it's formulated with ingredients clinically shown to protect youears from dizziness,

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so, it is a competition. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. for my money, the most revealing responses of the first g, p presidential primary debate were nonverbal. i want to remind you to be included, they were all sign a pledge for whoever the nominee would be. >> you all signed a pledge to support the republican nominee. if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as

your party's choice? raise your hand if you would. >> note the audience reaction. six hands went up in the air. everyone except chris christie and asa hutchison. in other words, six candidates apparently would not be bothered to see trump stand on the capitol steps in 2025 and swear an oath to uphold the constitution, no matter if he had been convict ed by a jury o violating that same constitution by, take your choice, conspiracy to obstruct justice, lying to the u.s. government, racketeering and conspiracy to commit forgery or conspiracy to defraud the united states. but above and beyond that, i found it hard to reconcile how most of those who raised their hands answered this this question. >> so president trump's former vice president is on this stage tonight. he has faced hecklers on the

campaign trail over his actions on january 6. on that day, the vice president moved forward with the certification of the election. so do you believe that mike pence did the right thing? >> vivek ramaswamy sidestepped the question and talked about pardoning trump, but among the others, tim scott said absolutely pence did the right thing before going off about the weaponization of the department of justice. ron desantis had to be asked repeatedly, but finally said, mike did his duty. doug burgum said mike pence did the the right thing. nikki haley said i think pence did the right thing, and i do think we need to give him credit for that. mike pence, who after all was the person this all happened to, said trump asked me to put him over the constitution and i chose the constitution and i always will. how can pence and the others who raised their hands about

supporting trump if he's kwukted also say they support pence's actions on january 6th to defend the electoral process? joining me to discuss is a national political reporter for the washington examiner, columnist for "the new york post" and kristin tate, column haddist for the hill. first with vivek ramaswamy. i guess no surprise he was the firsthand in the air when asked this question because after all, he said he will will pardon donald trump. any reaction to vivek? >> i thought he was very strong in this debate, and ron desantis, who was the number two candidate up until now, looked very weak in compare. when the moderators asked the nominee, if he were convicted, had he put his hands in the air, he looked around sheepishly and raised his hand to his shoulder although he was the embarrassed. desantis was the loser of this debate. not because the others had a poor performance, put fine is

not going to cut it when trying to defend your position as the number two candidate. vivek was bold. he said that he would defund ukraine. he wanted to get rid of a bunch of government agencies and thought the climate change agenda was a hoax. this is music to the ears of conservative voters, especially after decades of promoting these career politicians. vitt vek wvivek was the big winner. >> how can mike pence be supportive of donald trump and is convicted at the same time say trump wanted him to put the constitution in a sub verb yent role. >> because voting is complicated, and because it's a binary choice. so you don't have any other choices supposedly unless there's a vibrant third party candidate, when you go into the voting booth in the general

election. is he the republican or democrat most of the time. so you can believe that pence did the right thing and also be either enthusiastic or resign to vote for trump when you go to a general election mostly because you're happy with the direction that president biden has taken the country and not because it is a full-throated or or robust support for trump. >> you referenced it. we're going to show it. it's when governor desantis needs to look both left and right before answering this question. by the way, i would have thought this would have been a layup in terms of a question that would be asked that you would anticipate, but there's no doubt, as you look at it, i don't know if you're able to see it, but he's got to look every which way before sheepishly putting up that hand. is that going to cost him at all? >> yes, that was the moment right there that knocked him down a notch.

up until now, the media has only been treating ron desantis and donald trump as the two serious candidates. a couple months ago, most americans had no idea who vivek ramaswamy was. now almost everybody knows husband name. so ron desantis has to be nervous now. he got kind of unlucky with that question about mike pence. he really didn't want to answer that question. his answer on that one was really wishy washy. vivek got to avoid that question and that really helped him in a big way. that is not a question that is beneficial to the these candidates politically who are hoping to appeal to trump supporters. >> you know i regard you as a trump whisperer. so let me ask you. today's poll question. the mug shot, how does it play politically for trump? a net gain or net minus or something else? >> a little oit of both.

i think that the defiance works in the favor of where we are with our institutions in this country. as we all know, that relationship between voters and institutions on both sides of the aisle is at a record low. we don't sort of trust it. so the defiance works right now. however, i think it's way too early to say if it has longevity. i think that in talking to trump supporters, his biggest challenge right now is to not just run on being that guy in the mug shot. it has to be more than just about him. it has to be about voters, and he has to talk about them. that's where i find his weakness among voters. he's not talking about them. he's talking too much about himself. >> conservatives are having quite a cultural moment these days, not the least of which

rich men. oliver anthony had something interesting to say about the role of his song in the current conversation. let's all watch and listen. >> the one thing that has bothered me, i have seen wrap politics up into this. i'm disappointed to see -- it's aggravating seeing people on conservative news try to identify me like i'm one of them. it's aggravating seeing certain musicians and politicians act like we're buddies and act like we're fighting the same struggle here. like we're trying to present the same message. it was funny seeing my song at the presidential debate. because it's like i wrote that song about those people. >> i got to believe that he had to provide the rights for that

song to be used in the debate, but i have to say, i was rather surprised to hear him say, hey, i was talking about the people on that stage. what did you make of that? >> i was kind of surprised to hear that, too, but i think he represents the views of a lot of trump voters out there. these folks look at what they believe is a two-tiered justice system that is out to silence, punish and even imprison political enemies on the left, which is what trump's mug shot is a symbol of, and there's a lot of anger towards the media. that even includes fox news, that many voters on the right believe no long align with their believes. on the mug shot, i think this is all upside for trump because that mug shot represents more than just trump. it represents for so many trump supporters a fight that they believe they are all in together. and love trump or hate trump, one has to admit he really

nailed that mug shot. he did you want look scared. he doesn't look angry. had just looks determined to fight. the guy was a tv star for a reason. he knows exactly how he looks on camera. and that's that will be hugely motivating for his base. >> quick final comment, you're thinking what? >> i wasn't surprised at all at what he said. people don't believe they are defined by their politics. their lives aren't define d by politics. they look at the establishment equally with skepticism and cynicism. they don't like everything they do in their lives to be defined by politics. i wasn't surprised at all. that's a sentiment that i hear all the time from voters. >> thank you both for being here. appreciate your analysis. >> thank you very much. from the world of social

media, what do we have from x? party above all other pathetic. i guess what you're saying about the -- you can't sync those views. you can't say, way to go, mike pence. and if he's convicted, i'll still be supportive of him. what you saw in terms of governor ron desantis look ing left and right was him looking at the base. do i have to raise my hand for this. i guess i to. i want to remind you to go to smerconish.com. here's the poll question. is the existence of donald trump's mug shot a net plus or minus for him? up ahead, this plane allegedly with wagner leader yevgeny prigozhin aboard crashed suddenly outside of moscow killing everybody on board two months to the day he led a rebellion against vladimir putin.

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more payback from vladimir putin. reportedly carrying yevgeny prigozhin crashed this week. video from a russian state media outlet appears to show the plane descending against a bright blue sky and a zoom in reveals it's missing a wing. analysis by cnn now suggests that the plane experienced at least one catastrophic inflight incident not visible on the video. experts suspect an on board explosion. intelligence officials have told cnn they believe it was deliberate. a passenger manifest released by the civil aviation agency listed prigozhin and wagner's top commander among seven passengers and three crew members said to be killed. it came two months to the day

after prigozhin launched a mutiny against russia's military leadership challenging putin's authority. the kremlin has yet to officially confirm the death, in public comments, according to the state news agency of belarus, the president, who provided a haven for prigozhin after the rebellion said he warned prigozhin to watch out for threats to his life. as the ap recently summarized assassination attempts against foes of putin have been exxon during his in power. it cat the logs a list of intelligence operatives and journalists who were poisoned, shot in cold blood or fell out of a window. russia denied it had nugget to do with that. >> i don't know for a fact what happened, but i'm not surprised. >> do you believe putin is behind this?

>> not much that happened that putin is not behind. i don't know enough to know the answer. >> the ceo of hermtaj capital management joins me now. hooesz the author of "freezing order." bill, i imagine you're the least surprised, if in fact, it was putin after all, your 37-year-old lawyer spending a year in jail tortured and murdered met a similar fate. >> yeah, unlike president biden, i'm of the facts here. vladimir putin is a well-known serial murder. he kills people for a variety of reasons, for money, for politics, for deceit and

betrayal. there's a long list of dead bodies of people who he's killed. of all the people who have ever challenged him in any way, yevgeny prigozhin did it in the most humiliating way two months ago. so it's just plain as day that putin assassinated his chief rival. that's where we stand as of now. >> if you're right, would the motivation have been to remove a rival who threatened putin, or to serve public notice that this is what happens when you come for the king? >> both. first of all, he had to get rid of this guy because for every day that prigozhin was running around was a day of humiliation for vladimir putin. putin has been in power for 23 years very successfully because everybody has believed for the longest time that if you challenge putin, terrible things happen to you. and all of a sudden, somebody did the most terrible thing to

putin, which was to march on his government. and pretty successfully, to say the least, going through laying down their arms and so on and so forth. and to have this person not dead says to everybody, well, maybe puoout has lost his touch. maybe he's not such a mean guy or a dangerous thing to do. so he had to get rid of him to reestablish himself as the toughest guy in the prison yard. >> at the time that the plane went down, vladimir putin was at a solemn world war ii erceremon. i happen to be looking at the print edition of "the new york times." is he so calculating and sophisticated that he would time the event taking out prigozhin, his chief rival, when he would be in a solemn religious world war ii ceremony? >> i don't think things work out that conveniently. basically, they had a plan to

kill prigozhin. the plan was based on when he and his colleagues would enter that aircraft. that was the defining moment is when the opportunity to do it. to do in in a speck tack larceny way. the fact that they blew up a plane and got a visit image of it careening to the ground, that was their primary objective. where he happened to be at that moment was a matter of happenstance. >> final question. what does it mean relative to ukraine? >> it's good news for ukraine on a variety of fronts. first of all, prigozhin was the warrior that the ukrainians raid ed raulted the highest. they were the ones they had the toughest time going against. he was terrible in the most unbelievable ways. they really caused ukrainians great problems. not having him there is an extremely valuable thing for the

ukrainians. the second thing is that the more infighting there is in russia, the more problems they have internally, the more distracted they are, that's good for the ukrainians. and thirdly, i would say that the reason this whole prigozhin thing happened in the first place is ukraines were gaining ground. that caused all the infighting that led to this whole blow up between putin and prigozhin. the better the ukrainians do, the more infighting there is. maybe russia self-destructs at some point between now and then because of all this infighting. >> bill, thank you for your expertise, as almways. >> thank you. reminder to everybody. make sure you're answering the poll question at smerconish.com. register for the free newsletter. is the existence of donald t trump's mug shot a political net

plus or minus for him? still to come, "the new york times" calls him the world's leading alien hunter. i'll ask about the meter yore he retrieved from the pacific ocean. subway series menu. buy one footlong in the app, get one e free. for freeee. that's what i'm talkining abou. order in the subway app todada. you took my breath away from the moment i first saw you. will you marry me, dolly? she said yes! she said yes! it's not a real person. it's not a real diamond.

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that i would own my own business and be expanding into a separate building, i would've told you you'd lost your mind. rumors of a government coverup of possible ufo information just won't go away. this week the topic infill straited the presidential primary debate. >> now for something a little out of this world. this is for you. do you believe the recent spike in ufo encounters -- >> get the ufo question? >> the exchange happened to coincide with a "new york times" magazine profile of my next guest. how a professor became the world alien hunter. the search for extraterrestrial life made him the fmost famous n

the country and possibly the most controversial. a few months ago, they led an expedition that retrieved fragments from the pacific ocean floor off the coast ofny begin knee to study their composition. their remnants of a fireball from space that crashed through the atmosphere, whose data was recorded by sensors in his book, about the first interstellar object that passed through the solar system in 2017, that was a best seller. his latest is due out this month. the search for extraterrestrial life and our future in the s stars. the director of the black hole initiative. great to see you again. all the the debate about that question suggest mainstream america is still not ready to accept the idea of ufos being alien life? >> thanks for having me.

the good news is that it's not up to the american people. the reality that we live in can be figured out by seeking evidence. and that's what it used to be in the days when he argued that the earth moves around the sun. it didn't matter they put him in house arrest. now when we launch spacecraft, we rely on the fact that the earth moves around the sun. so reality doesn't care about social media. >> i know that you're about to formally announce this week the results of your exploration of what you found on the floor, but give us a taste. >> we within the to the pacific ocean to find the remnants of an interstellar meteor that was moving too fast to be bound to the sun based on u.s. government satellite data. and we went there. we found the concentration of the drop et lets from the

surface of the object when it was exposed to the fireball that surrounded it as a result of its friction with air. then we found more of these modern droplets along the meteor path. it was a very challenging task. we're talking about particles that are the size of a grain of sand, less than a millimeter across the region of 7 miles when the ocean depth is more than a mile. but we managed to bring home more than 700 of them. over the past two months, we used the best instruments that the world had to offer to figure out their composition. and guess what, we are able to demonstrate that they are from outside the solar system. >> wow, okay. you'll making that announcement this week. in that profile of you, it said this. where loeb departs is thinking

aliens could have already made their way to us. do you believe and does this finding support the idea that ailes yens have already made their way to us? >> the question that we address here in the first paper is whether the material is from outside the solar system. the next question is whether the composition pattern that we find in terms of elements indicates some technological origin. and the best way to figure it out is to find the big piece of the object because then you can tell the difference between a rock and a technological gadget. a gadget will have buttons on it. and actually in my class at harvard university, i asked the students what should we do if we find a gadget with buttons on it. should we press the button. half of the class said that please don't do it. it will affect all of us. the other half said please do it

because we'd like to know what would happen. i said i would bring it to a laboratory to examine it before engaging with it. the good news is that we have the ability to collect the data and figure it out. it's not a matter of science fiction. it's not a matter of people talking about it in talk shows or politicians discussing it in the congress. it's something that scientists can get to the bottom of. >> thank you for the preview of this week's announcement. we really expect it. i'm putting it in the gadget category. that's my take away. i appreciate your time and expertise. >> thanks for having me. still to come, more of your best and worst social media comments. have you voted yet at smerconish.com? is the existence of donald trump's mug shot a political net plus or minus for him. you tookok my breath away from the moment i first saw you. will y you marry me, dolly?

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time to see how you responded to the poll question. is the existence of donald trump's mug shot a political net plus minus for him? it's essentially 60/40, as you can see on the screen, of approaching 30,000 votes. people saying it's a minus. i'll tell you who i think thinks it's a plus. donald trump. first of all, of course, he rehearsed. if you knew you were going to be mug shot and knew that in advance, would you not think to yourself, how do i want to strike a pose for this. of course, he did. he wanted defiance. and i'm sure his only beef with that mug shot is to complain about the lighting. but the reason that i think that

he wanted it, if you gave him a choice, you could be mug shotted or not, the reason he would say take my mug shot is because he had already begin ed up a photo corresponding to the new york indictment he was not mug shotted. it was complete with the date and it showed a height marker behind him. himes sure he's bye-bye able to fundraise to great effect with the fake one. so now he had has the real one. here's some social media reaction. what do we have? there are people wearing mug t-shirts. that will be everywhere. what else came in? love it. trump has the first amendment right. the fact we're trying to limit the social media is a violation of the constitutional right.

i hope you got a kick out of it and learned something from the conversation. it's going to be the dominant issue going forward. how is he going to comport himself and will prosecutors in fulton county georgia try to limit his speech. the more that they do so, i think the more that it strengthens his hand among those who believe that it's a political prosecution. because we have seen the data. he's benefitted each time among republicans, not a general election strategy, for the indictments. so he's going to keep at it. i think as the comments via truth social what and what we play for his statement after being arrested and photographed. that's a tough call for prosecutors. do they want to reign anyhim in not so much. what do we have? michael, why don't you stop pretending and formally join trump's defense team. you are working for free. why? because i don't sound like

everybody else. i'm here to call balls and strikes. there's an interesting issue as to whether trump's first amendment rights are being curtailed in that bond order. and what i'm not supposed to raise the issue and bringen academic like that dialogue because it looks like i'm in the tank. that's what you get from me each and every week. i'll see you next saturday. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. for freeee.. that's's what i'm talking abou. order in thehe subway app toda. i need i it cool at night. you trying to ice me outut of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number. i'm patriotikenny. and, hi, i'm anda on tiktok. my scooter broke down. i went into a depression. how do you feel about that?

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