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welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. on this week's program, i travel to the pentagon for an exit interview with the top military adviser to president's trump and biden. after almost 45 years of service, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley will retire at the end of the month. i asked him about russia, ukraine, china, taiwan. plus his controversial appearance with trump in lafayette park and the allegations that the u.s. military has become too woke. >> i would tell you that the military i see is a military that is exceptionally strong, that is powerful and it is ready. then, elon musk currently the world's richest man. he's also one of the most controversial. critics say he has far too much control over everything from the

war in ukraine, to the voices that are heard online. the great biographer of our times walter isaacson got unparalleled access to musk for a brand-new book on the billionaire. he'll tell me what he learned. but first, here is my take. the democrats are confronting a crisis that could cripple their chances at the polls. at the national, state and local level. i'm talking about immigration. it is happening not only because republicans are taking advantage of the problem, but also because democrats are unwilling to accept that their policy ideas on the issue are wrong. grossly inadequate to the challenge at hand. app r apprehensions at the souther border are surging and texas towns have been inundated by the waves arrivaled but now they are

bused into cities like new york, chicago and washington d.c., local governments there are facing back-breaking expenses to house them. new york city mayor eric adam was as exaggerating when he said this problem would destroy the city. the biden administration various effor efforts have amounted to band aids on a massive open wound. alejandro mayorkas has said that the asylum system is broken. but if that is true, we need a drastic dramatic overhaul of the system. and neither he nor president biden is proposing anything like that. to understand how to think about this issue, let's go back to basics. after world ii, the united states developed pathways for people who faced extreme persecution because of their race, religion or beliefs to take refuge in america.

but first, there are surely tens of millions of people around the world who could plausibly claim that they face persecution, and the u.s. cannot possibly take them all in. more importantly, the u.s. cannot be forced to give priority to people who break the law and enter the country ill elly and then claim asylum status to legitimatize that entry as opposed to those who follow the rules and wait their turn. but that is what is happening every day now at the souther border. second, these asylum cases must be special and distinct from the case of peoples from all over the world who are trying to immigrate to the united states because their fleeing poverty, disease or violence. people who fall into this category face a complex and elaborate process thatt entails

various kinds of visas and work permits, some that could translate into a green card and eventually citizenship. bu bu but instead of that process, it is simpler to pay cartels to help them cross the border illegally, present themselves as asylum-seekers and slip into the country while their cases are being adjudicated. according to the homeland security inspector general, in one 17 month period from march of 2021 and august of 2022, the federal government released more than 1 million migrants into the u.s. and immediately lost track of over 177,000 of them who are failed to give an address or had provided an invalid one. when the system of due process collapses, as it has, it is most unfair to those who have legitimate claims to asylum, or legal immigrant status. there is only one solution to this crisis. president biden should ask congress for authority or use

existing executive authority to suspend entirely the admission of asylum-seekers while the system digests the millions of immigration cases already pending. the british government has passed a law to this effect. other western countries will undoubtedly follow. the world has changed. according to the ux n. high commission for refugees there are more than 40 million refugees and asylum-seekers globally. we need new laws, standards and courts and systems so asylum could be granted but through some orderirly rational process rather than just leaving it up to officials that are overwhelmingliel legal entrants at their borders. the migrant crisis is exposing democratic policy weakness from every level. from an administration that is scared to take on the progressive wing and take bold action to states like new york and massachusetts that have right to shelter rules that are

unworkable in the face of this onslaught. unless democrats seed control of this issue, the politics will have the same effect as in other western countries. rocket fuel for the populist right. donald trump's main solution to this problem, just didn't work. the very fact that we have millions of migrants entering the country over the past few years proves that however much of his wall he actually built, it hasn't worked. but most americans know that he sees the current situation as utterly unacceptable and is willing to take extreme measures about it and they know no such thing for his democratic opponent. now let's get started. ♪ mark milley is going out on

top. the four-star army general is america's highest ranking military officer as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. in that role, he's the top military adviser to president biden, a job he also performed for president trump. that role has entangled the general in politics in a way he's decidedly uncomfortable with. his almost 45-year career in the military started when he graduated from princeton university and has taken him through many tours of combat duty. now he's retiring and returning to civilian life. we sat down on tuesday at the pentagon for a wide-ranging exit interview. >> general milley, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you, fareed. appreciate the opportunity to be here. >> how long before you retire? >> just a couple weeks now. i retired by law at midnight on the 30th and so what is that, 18, 19 days, something like that. >> and then what is the first thing that you're going to do? >> well my wife and i will move.

out of our set of quarters on fort myer and then i intend to sleep and get rid of the bags under the eyes an be the best grandfather i could be. >> let's jump right into it. a lot of the people on the ukrainian side that i talked to last week when i was in kyiv say we don't understand. we asker for these weapons, let say himars and the united states said no and then gives them to us. but it is now eight or nine months later. we feel like the same thing is happening attack ems and f-16s. why not give them to us fast? >> well i think over the period of time, we have given them considerable amount of military aid. about $40 billion worth so far. and over $100 billion in total aid if you include monetary and humanitarian aid. so that is just the united states. the united states has been extraordinary lir jenner usa.

>> no it has. >> but if you want to win, why not do it fast. >> there is mechanical issues in terms of how naft you could marshall this equipment and get it across lines from of communication from adjacent countries and then how fast they could absorb it. so it is not just sprinkle magic dust and this stuff starts showing up. and the other thing is need. at beginning of the war, the greatest need was for anti-armor weapons for example, to stop the russian offensive and that is what they do. and then as they shifted into the current operation, they needed tanks, bradleys, mechanized and armored vehicles of various times. and the west was very generous in providing those. and then you have to have the training and the spare parts and all of that does take a period of time to do. it is not a question of it just all shows up at once. >> what do you think of the current state of the

counteroffensive? do you think the ukrainians are now beginning to push the russians out of cities and towns? >> i think they've been doing it so since last summer. the winter was fighting but not a lot of movement. but then this offensive, although slow, slower than the planners had ant iicipated, it s been steady through defensive bullets and they fought in bakhmut and zaporizhzhia and town toward mariupol and all of that. it is been steady progress. i said it is going to be long, hard and bloody because the nature of this particular fight and the type of defense that the russians put in, and the capabilities of the ukrainians for a very, very difficult, long tough fight. but the ukrainians have been doing that. they have a lot of combat power remaining. p they are not a spent force.

and there is sufficient weather that allows them to continue this -- to aclehieve their stea progress. they have not failed. it hasn't failed. it is at least a partial success. their through several of the belts and they have time left. so we'll see where it goes. but the ukrainians are demonstrating an incredible ability of courage, resilience and toughness and they are slowly but steadily working through some very, very difficult russian defenses. >> so a realistic goal that many believe ukraine should have is essentially to gain access to the sea of azov, or go down south, mariupol, that area, so that it frees up odessa as the port they could start freely exporting their grain from. you believe that is doable? >> well we'll see. i wouldn't want to make a prediction on that just yet.

we'll see what happens. again, there is well over 200,000 russian troops in russian occupied ukraine. this offensive, although significant, has operational and tactical objectives that are limited in the sense that they do not, even if they are physfully achieved, they don't kick out all of the russians which is the broader objective for president zelenskyy. that is a effort over a considerable amount of time. i don't want to put a time on it. because a lot of things could happen in a war, it is reaction, counter action. you could see a general collapse and escalation and a lot of things happen in the future. but i could tell you that it will take a considerable length of time to militarily eject all 200,000 plus russian troops out of russian occupied ukraine. that is a very high bar, it is

going to take a long time to do it. >> next on "gps ", the tension s the pacific is palpable and it is focused on taiwan. if china invades the island, what could the u.s. military do? i will ask general milley when we come back. i'm trying to do. i got you in one ear and... maybe i should do a podcast. those are the people who know you'r're in good hands with allllstate. okay everyone, our mimission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete ♪ ♪ each days a unique blend of going, doing, and living. glucer protein smart with 30 grams of protein to help keep you movin uniquely designed with carbsteady to help manage blood sugar response. glucerna, bring on the day.

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general mark milley, the chair of the joint chiefs of staff has not spoken to his chinese counterpart in over a year. since july 2022. that single fact alone speaks volumes about the dangerous tensions between the world's two most powerful countries. in testimony before the house armed services committee in march, general milley said that while war with china isn't imminent, the u.s. needs to keep the military stronger than china so if deterrance fails, america

could win. here is more with general milley. >> you have said that china is on track to have a military that might even be more powerful than the united states. >> that is their objective. >> and you say they are moving in that direction? >> trying to move in that direction. >> is it possible that we will look back and think that we overestimated them in the way that i remember estimations of soviet military power, that in retrospect were wildly off. i recommend the estimates of saddam hussein that was wildly off. is it possible because it is a black box do we think our enemies are taller than they are. >> that is very possible and the chinese are not ten feet tall. and notice, i said that is their plan. that is their desire and aspiration. and if we stay still, if the united states stays still and

the military stays still, we don't modernize, then there is a reasonable chance that the chinese would succeed in doing that. but what you're seeing, fareed, is the largest chip in power since the rise of the united states in the late 1800s, perhaps the rise of the west and the fall of rome and stuff like that. you've seen an enormous shift in global economic power to china beginning with the reforms of ping in '79. so 45 years ago, the economics of the world began to shift. so today you've got the manufacturing capital of the world without exception is china. and in the wake of that shift in economic power, the chinese took that money and have invested in a military. they want a military capable in space and cyber and the demands of land, sea and air. they've developed fourth and

fifth generation fighter bombers, copying our designs and reformed our ground forces from a pez ant based army. 1970s to a modern army with multiple commands. so they're an owe the path to do that. and they're goal is to exceed the united states military capability in east asia by the end of this decade. certainly by the middle of next decade. and they want the united states to exit east asia militarily and diplomatically. they want us to cease being the arbitrator of asia and they want to be the global challenger of the united states by mid century. they want to meet or exceed u.s. military capabilities by mid century. but we're not going to stand still. we'll continue to modernize and invest. and i know it sounds like a bumper sticker, through is value in the strength peace through strength. so the objective is deterrence.

we had a great power war in world war ii and we haven't had one in 80 years and we need to avoid a great power war and china could be evaluated a lot of different ways but great power is what they are, economically and militarily their capable and we should try our very best to avoid opened armed conflict with china. >> the most likely flash point is taiwan. reports say christian buros book that the pentagon has done many war games over taiwan. the u.s. has almost never won in those war games. is it possible for the united states to rappel a chinese invasion of taiwan. >> it is entirely possible. i've done a massive amount of war games over the years and i'm in my 44th game of service. a lot of time your experimenting

and int deucing new capabilities so you have to be careful from the conclusions from quote/unquote war games. they are not free play and their designed to achieve certain outcomes so i would tell you about a unclassified way about taiwan. we, the united states, still maintain that the taiwan relations act, the communication assurances that go with that. and we the united states want a peaceful out come between taiwan and the peoples republic of china and whatever that is between those two peoples, that is the u.s. desire. as long as it is done peacefully. but militarily, i think china could make a grave strategic mistake if they attempted to attack to seize the island of taiwan. that is not the only option by the way. but to attack and seize the island of taiwan is a very, very high bar. it is the most complex of all operations to do. and frankly the chinese military

capability is probably not there right this second to do that. president xi in public unclassified speeches has challenged the peoples liberation army and navy and air force to develop that capability by 2027 is what he said. it used to be the 2030s and he made it to 2027. that doesn't mean he made a decision to it but he wants them to have the capability of doing it and that means they don't have the capability at this second. at least in his mind. >> next, the chairman of the joint chief of staff have been thrust in politics. i'll ask him about that when we come back. there's challenges, and i love overcoming challenges. ♪

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get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. general milley was the army's chief of staff in 2018 when he made history.

the first ever chairman of the joint cleave whose nomination was announced in a tweet. and the message then president trump called both milley and his predecessor joe dunford incredible men. trump would come to turn on his chairman and embroil him in politics. he stayed on when president biden took office. in a recent rose garden address, biden said to milley -- >> i trust you completely. completely. >> now more of general milley's exit interview with me. >> general let me ask you about some questions relating to civil military relations because you occupy a unique position. you're a uniformed military officer and also adviser to the president. you said after president trump asked you to walk with him on that infamous walk through lafayette park and held up the bible that you made a mistake. you shouldn't have been there.

what was the -- what was the mistake in your mind? how would you characterize what you did wrong and what lesson you learned? >> well i think the key thing is that the united states military must be apolitical or nonpolitical. and nonpartisan. and i walked into a political event. unwittingly but a political event nonetheless and i was in uniform and that shouldn't happen. that is not president trump. that is me. president trump is a politician. he could do whatever he wans to do. but as a soldier, i should never enter into politics. and as soon as i recognized it, it lasted about 30 to 40 seconds ab photos are taken and then i walked away and my agent detail walked off to the right and got out of the way. but yeah, that shouldn't have happened. and i knew instantly that i shouldn't be there in uniform and i thought that the best thing to do, i was already on preplanned speech for graduation for ndu and i inserted the part

of it to try to make that as a teaching moment for our up and coming officers to make sure they knew i had made a mistake and i regretted that. >> and if you were to do it again. >> i wouldn't have participated. >> you would have said no? >> absolutely. there is no place for a uniform to be in a political event, period. now, that doesn't mean that doesn't happen every now and again. i've been in the -- both sides of the aisle that put me or my predecessors in photographs at various times, et cetera. that stuff happens. it is not necessarily great. but it happens on occasion. i've been in campaign commercials and we've asked them to take us out and they normally do. the united states of america is a healthy independent democratic republic. we don't want our military involved in actual u.s. domestic politics. it is true that war is politics but that is a different case.

we're talking about u.s. domestic politics and the u.s. military has no part in that. >> so there are people and critics of yours on the right that say you do interject into politics and you talk about the military is not woke and how military officers should be reading carl marx and opined on things that is not adhering to the strict distinction between civil authority and military authority. >> as a chairman, you're rendering advice but all of our offices operate in a politics environment. so injecting into politics is not the same as being informed by the environment that you're operating in. if you're operating or rendering advice to any civilian authoritiesk you do have to be novembered and have an understanding of the terrain that your operating in. so blissful ignorance is not an action, you need to be informed

of the society you defend and the environment in which you're operating. so a broad education, i think, is critical to any professional officer of the branch. >> is the u.s. military too woke? >> no, not at all. so, i'm not even sure what that word truly means. but i would tell you that the military i see, is a military that is exceptionally strong. it is powerful. it is ready. in fact our readiness rate is better now than they've been in years. and what i see on a day-to-day basis right now for example, fareed, in the last 24 hours we've had about 5,000 sorties of u.s. aircraft keeping the skies safe and somewhere between 60 and 100 u.s. naval vessels patrolling the seven seas and a quarter of million u.s. ground troops like the army and marine corp on freedoms frontier around the world maintaining peace and stability. this is a military dedicated to our readiness and our capability and the thing that we need to

focus is the modernization for the character of war i see changing. but this military is a lot of things but woke it is not. i take exception to that. i think that people say those things for reasons that are their own reasons. but it is not true. it is not accurate. and it is not to say, by the way, there is not some things out there that are -- could be fit into that category. but i don't think it is -- it is not a broad brush description of the u.s. military as it exists today. >> and finally, are you going to write a memoir? >> i'll probably write. i don't know that i would do a tell-all. a lot of people have mentioned that to me. i haven't given a lot to what i give after 1 october. right now there is a lot of things that are going on and very bad things could happen in a short period of time and i have to be focussed on the job and that is what i'm doing. i'll probably write some things in the future. a tell all is not something a chairman or officer should be doing but i think i'll write and

make a contribution. right now i'm focused on the job and i have to run through the tape here through 1 october. >> general, pleasure to have you on. >> appreciate the opportunity. next on "gps", love him or hate him, elon musk is one of the world's most influential people. walter isaacson got inside access for his new biography of the multi-billionaire. he will explain musk's vision for the future and how he thinks and what makes him tick after the break. [announcer] if you're thinking about earning your degree online, snhu can help you get there. - i felt supported throughout the whole process, even from the first call. [graduate] my advisors consistently reached out and guided me along the way. - it was like i was talking to a friend,

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he's also reckless, mercurial and at times juvenile and dangerous. walter isaacson set up to understand this complex figure. isaacson has written a slew of acclaimed books about different geniuses through history. his new book is titled simply "elon musk." pleasure to have you on. >> good to be back with you. >> i'm skeptical of the idea that people's at childhood forever shapes them. but this one seems extraordinary. i mean, he said to you adversity shaped me and what he's describing is -- what you describe as a harrowing childhood. >> right. and people could have perfectly wonderful childhoods and still be great innovators. but there is some correlation it seems to me sometimes between fan einstein or kissinger or leonardo growing up gay in the

village of vinchy and then leaving to florence. but this was such a brutal childhood in south africa. a lot of violence. he and his brother would go to an anti-apartheid concert and the doors train would open and there would be someone sprawled there with a knife and they would have to step through the pools of blood. and he got beaten up so often because he was very socially awkward as a kid. but the scars really came from his father who then took the side of the kid who beat elon up. and when elon would stand there for like an hour and call him stupid. so there is a light and dark side to musk that is really shaped by the adversity of childhood as he said. >> and it seems to have produced a kind of punch back hard mentality. his brother describes his fascination with video games and he said, the video games taught him lessons like empathy is not

an asset, play life like a game. don't fear losing. so these -- >> and don't unplug. he just keep going to the next level of the game. but even early on, there is something called veld school in south africa and the first time he goes there, he loses ten pounds because they keep beating him up and taking the food. second time he has gotten bigger and he said i learned to unch punch people in the nose really hard and they would still beat me up. but if i punched them hard in the nose and they would remember it and it is a metaphor for now, you see him very successful but eager to punch people in the nose. >> we have to skip through the career because i want to get at to what seems to be the fascinating parts of the book. one of his geniuses, it seems to me, is a kind of fluengineering

genius. even though he was a physics maker. as you poin in tesla, the key manufacturer in the world, he decided tesla would make all its components itself. it was not going to have those hundreds of suppliers and that is in some ways what has created this kind of complete almost apple-like closed universe, right. >> exactly. and it is very much one of the transformations he's caused because when tesla was first formed it was making the batteries and in japan and the battery packs would be in some barbecue place in thailand and then go to england. anyway, he said, no. you have to do it end to end yourself. and we could manufacture in the united states again. and people at that point in the '70s and '80s, all of the car companies have outsourced almost 70% of what they did. and he said that if you manufacture it, if you walk the factory line every day, and you make your designers have their desks next to the factory

assembly line, then they could iterate hour-by-hour and see what works. and so to me, one of his strengths, it is not the sexiest thing that makes the tabloid, is the ability to design not just cars but the factories and is assembly lines that make cars and show how they're expected. >> and he's created a mozzel for a tesla which is a software on wheels an the software gets updates like a phone. constantly. >> yeah. and it allows it to totally change -- and the big thing that he's aiming for, and as usual he's able to turn the impossible into the very late. it is going to take a while. is self-driving. the car that drives itself. and that is all a software issue. and one of the big leaps right just a few months ago and sort of the near the end of the book, is they had hundreds of thousands of lines of code that taught the car how to drive. so you see a red light, you stop and see yellow lines, don't

cross. now they're doing it with machine learning like chatgpt and artificial intelligence with a -- with filling up a computer with a billion frames of video a day of humans driving so the car learns to do what a human would do in the situation. and when you look at something like spacex, you know, what do you see as the kind of fundamental kind of genius there? >> a lot of it. but let's start with risk taking. he sets up the first three rockets and they all blow up. and he said, everybody who came to america was -- were risk takers. whether they came on the mayflower or across the rio grande. we have more referees than risk takers and regulators. so he's willing to try things. and it means that boeing and nasa have not been able to get, say astronauts in the u.s. into

orbit, into the space station. but he's able to do that multiple times. he's sent up 5,000 communication satellites which are the only ones that work. and it is that ability to iterate and take risks that i think is just part one of the puzzle. >> stay with us. when we come back, i'm going to ask walter isaacson whether elon musk's success has a lot to do with the government. even those he's kind of a libertarian himself. when we come back. salonpas, makers of powerful pain relief f patches for 89 years... believes in continuous improvement... like rounded corners that resist peeling, with an array of active ingredients... and sizes to relieve your pai salonpas. it's good medicine.

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and we are back with walter isaacson. talking about elon musk. people now think of musk as something of a conservative because -- and certainly a kind of libertarian around covid. i'm struck by his biggest businesses are all totally

dependent on the government. spacex, the biggest customers are nasa and the defense department. tesla, without the loan he got, tesla might not have survived but as a tesla owner, you get a huge tax credit for buying it. and solar, when he did it, solar said he was entirely based on, again, the federal tax credits, california tax credits. does he reflect on the oddity of thinking of himself? >> well he understands government and is in favor of regulation including for a.i. now. he so yjust went to talk to chu schumer and others in senate. but there is a distinction. which is boeing and other contractors which cost plus contacts which means government pays you and if you're late you get more and a guaranteed profit and if goes, if the cost overruns you make more money.

w musk did was it is a fee for service. if you want the satellites up and you pay me this much and i take the risk. it is a new way of doing business which means the risk capital came from spacex and not from the government. >> though the tesla loan he got from -- >> well he did not get an auto bailout in the famous auto bailout. he got a department of energy loan that was paid back from interest. i'm not trying to defend it because i think you're right. government has to help certain types of economic activity and when it came the to translation of vehicles there were a lot of government incentives. >> star link, i want to ask you about the star link case. so it is now famous because of your book that he told star link, the ukrainians, i won't let you use star link in crimea if you start attacking it. you could use it in ukraine, not

including kind of the parts that the russians annexed in 2014, you could use the part they annexed in 2022. he thought that that would cause world iii, that the russians would respond with nuclear weapons. well the ukrainian found ways to ak that crimea repeatedly and the russians have not used nuclear weapons. do you think that -- does elon musk take feedback that is negative? does he realize that he was wrong about that? >> well, he does have this apocalyptic view of the world. and anything at any point could become world war iii and go nuclear and that night in september when he's decided not to enable star link, the ukrainians don't know it is already been disabled, he thinks that is going to cause world war iii. they're going to go nuclear. and in the end, as you say, that wasn't exactly true. but you're more of an expert

than i am. there was a nontrivial chance that it could have caused a more robust response. but it didn't. so musk, does take feedback. not very well. one of his weaknesses, not enough people telling him no. but you've have mark milley on this show, he talks to general mark milley and to national security adviser jake sullivan and they decide that control of star link should now be some of it transferred to the u.s. government. so that the u.s. government gets to make the decision on would it be to dangerous to allow it to be used that way. so i watched him over the past few months say, maybe there is too much power for a private citizen like me and maybe i don't know whether it is going to cause a nuclear war. let's let the u.s. government do it. >> we have a minute but the central question one gets from your jobs and musk's books is do you have to be an asshole to be a genius?

what do you think? >> no. and i wrote, i hope somebody will read it. jennifer dowden of the code break, my last book and she helps invent this technology called crisper that allows us to edit or genes. huge technology and has the sweetest lab there is and maybe one of your favorites might be benjamin franklin because he's so much like you. he's a guy that brings people together. so if you write biography, it is not like you're writing seven secrets to how to be an elected leader, you're writing about real people, some of whom are kind and gentle and some are rough around the edges and you let the reader decide, okay, i get it. >> do you know what you're going to do next? you just had a slew of extraordinary books. >> i want to be the athe intersection of science and technology. and as you know, especially after henry kissinger, i go way back in history to after steve jobsk i go back in history.

there is a part of me now that wants to go into the way back machine. >> walter isaacson, always such a pleasure. amazing book. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. touriss tourists that turn into scientists. tourist taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers c can help life underwater flourish. ♪ somedays, i cover up becse of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way.

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